[4E] Just founded a 'paladin' order

[loopy]

I've been playing in a 4E campaign for a while now, started off with:

Me: Krusk, Half-orc Rageblood Barbarian (Int of six and who LOVES CRUSHING!)
Callum: Thoradin, Dwarven Battle Cleric (multiclassed to Invoker), who is also the DM. He's a great DM, and really good at running entertaining DMPC's that fit with the party.
James: William Frostweave, the surprisingly badass human wizard (the player rolled ridiculously well for stats in front of us, Will is a paragon of humanity, with 18's for half his stats).
Nicole: Eysis, Elf Ranger (Ranged).
Beth: Jenna, Elf Ranger (Two Weapon)

Anyway, the group has temporarily fractured due to James and Nic having a baby, which is understandable, but Callum and I got bored and ran a few more sessions... And we found out our characters *really* kick ass. The two of us have been downing encounters meant for five-person groups of level 7-9 players.

But I digress.

Our first mission was to rescue a blacksmiths son from some ruins. Long story short, we ended up ducking into the shadow-plane and rescuing a castle while we were there. So the first mission ended with us as the "Liberators of Castle Crag".

The Purple Knights came and took control of the castle, with their Lord Commander Dalroth officially giving us our adventuring license... thingies. Still, the return of a castle meant that our hometown started booming, and expanding quite rapidly, as it became something of a hub for the region.

Second mission was nothing major, Krusk and Thorgrim investigated the newly expanded town sewers because workers had been disappearing. Ended up being goblins. Wiped them out.

Third mission, Krusk (still working at the tavern as a bouncer, having not worked out yet that he is, by now, one of the wealthiest people in the town, and doesn't actually need to work there) and Thorgrim get asked by Commander Dalroth to investigate a temple/crypt that had once been the holy place of a good god before the spellplague hit (they didn't know which god, but it turned out to be Pelor).

We went there and killed skeletons, zombies, wights, and even some vampire spawn minions, which was concerning, as a successful religion check reminded us that vampire spawn can't just be raised, they have to be created by a bigger badder vampire.

We found this orb filled with necrotic energy at the bottom of the crypt, apparently it had been placed there to raise the crypt as undead. Thoradin figured out how to purify it, turned it back into a holy artifact.

Anyway, headed back to Castle Crag successful, with holy orb of Pelor in hand. Got a large reward (in addition to the loot we'd grabbed from the crypt). At this point, Krusk had an idea. If Krusk is good at killing zombies... and Thoradin is good at killing zombies... Why don't we make a place to teach people to kill zombies better!

So started the story of the tentatively named "Shadeslayer Academy". Backed by three gods and counting (Moradin, Pelor, and Kord).

My question to you fine people is... What exactly do we *do* with these stalwart defenders of alive-kind?

(It also feels nice to have rescued a castle and established a paladin order by level 5, haha)

[sambo.]

My question to you fine people is... What exactly do we *do* with these stalwart defenders of alive-kind?

leaving out the issue that, as a general rule, there are no big bands of Paladins. Paladins are *supposedly* as rare as hen's teeth. and also ignoring the inherant problems of splitting faith between three (and counting) deities is somewhat, err, odd......

send them forth to do good deeds, bringing the Words of Pelor/Moradin/Kord to the unenlightened and smiting evil wherever they find it.

[loopy]

Well yeah, generally Paladins aren't sent out in big groups. But there are Paladin orders in FR. So even if, once they are trained, they are sent out in groups of ones or twos, the order itself will be 50-100 strong at least.

Besides, paladin is what we got when we tried to figure out what would happen if you crossed a barbarian and a clerics fighting style in an academy, haha.

Not to mention that this order is more "dedicated undead slayer" than "dedicated to one particular god". So maybe paladin was the wrong word, but its close enough to suit the purpose. :smallwink:

[Tiki Snakes]

Well, actual paladins are rare, but vaguely holy fighter types who train in, amongst other things, smashing zombies real good, are hardly out of the question in reasonable numbers. :)

As for the three Gods, well, Kord pretty much lives with Moradin, and I can see Moradin and Pelor getting on well enough that 'Ally' is not an unlikely stance.

Once you've trained up a load of holy warriors though, you're going to need something useful for them to do. So, Lich-Kings, haunted necropolises, blasted lands of the dead, etc, should all get a nice pseudo-military visit.

Other than that, maybe make sure the academy becomes as self supporting and self renewing as possible. The Paladins you train today should eventually go on to train more paladins, (at least enough to keep the thing viable). Encourage them to have families, who can work the land and support those Paladin's not currently out doing Mighty and Valorous Deeds, etc.

[Volin]

Well, paladins are rare. But I would say you could get away with multi-class paladin with some success. Essentially, this is saying ignore the fluff about what a paladin is, and use the game rules. A martial character with some divine skill. Now, when you train people you let them choose the god that they feel is best for them. If they can learn some basic prayers and your techniques on defeating undead then they can justify a paladin multiclass.

Also, keep in mind in most poly-theistic cultures, it is not at all strange to have an organization that claims to represent three gods at once. These gods share some themes, and they certainly share the undead bashin theme of your group.

[sambo.]

Not to mention that this order is more "dedicated undead slayer" than "dedicated to one particular god".
sounds more like a collaboration of Clerics than Paladins....


So maybe paladin was the wrong word, but its close enough to suit the purpose. :smallwink:

err, i'm an olde sk00l player from the "3d6 straight down the character sheet stat generation" 1ed days. the day's when Paladins were rare.

and i do mean ridiculously, insanely, "you need a 17 Charisma plus a bunch of other high stats" RARE.

the mindset has kind of stuck with me where Paladins are concerned.

that said: go wild! send forth your Lawful Good Minions of Evil Smiting to protect the innocent, serve justice and promote peace love and unity.

just remember to tithe them. 25% should be sufficient to maintain the castle.

[Random NPC]

Pardon the 3.5 term, but, if you started a Paladin order, only a handful would be really Paladins. Everyone else would be either Warriors or Adepts. NPCs are not awesome, PCs are!

After this, well... Establish the order and have them go together ridding the world of evil! Kinda like the Purple Dragon Knights

[Hashmir]

Yeah, as far as the training of "paladins" goes, I would suggest making it a general Divine Order of Pelordadin, wherein all manner of divine classes are trained. Once you've got a whole bunch of lackeys, just ask around and/or scry for the nearest shambling mockery of life, rekill it, then proceed to work your way out in concentric circles.

[Tiki Snakes]

Classes are not something that exists in game. It's an out of game concern, and strictly one relating to PC's in 4e, really, save some very unnecessary ways of npc building.

So, yes, the Warriors and Adepts comment is pretty fair, they will be NPC's with a handful of appropriately flavoured powers, mechanically speaking.
If such special individuals arise that would best be modeled via pc classes, (or more likely, people join and like the idea of being from there), then really any divine class, and several martial classes are perfectly viable classes to originate from such an academy, depending on various things such as how important the religious element is.

[Mando Knight]

sounds more like a collaboration of Clerics than Paladins....

Well, when Paladins can pack at-will Laser-Sword-Of-Smiting powers, they start to whale on undead themselves...

[Oracle_Hunter]

leaving out the issue that, as a general rule, there are no big bands of Paladins. Paladins are *supposedly* as rare as hen's teeth. and also ignoring the inherant problems of splitting faith between three (and counting) deities is somewhat, err, odd......


:confused:

Paladins aren't RAW rare anymore. That was an artifact from 2E where, because of ridiculous requirements, they were in fact rare :smalltongue:

So no, Paladins aren't any rarer than any other PC class (by RAW). Of course, PCs themselves are very rare.

I dig the idea of an Order - though it should be noted this is more of a Knightly Order than a Paladin one, because of all the different gods. In fact, the very first thing I'd do is make sure that the 3 Churches (and not some random holy men) actually back your organization. Alliances amongst the Forces of Good (-ish) are a common Trope, to be sure.

Next, I'd start establishing the actual Order. Y'know, figure out who's in charge of what, how you'll get new recruits, where you're staying, how you'll pay for it, and so on. Oh, and get some actual recruits, while you're at it.

Now, once you've got things humming, you can start going on Quests. Considering the nature of the founding, I'd say you should try to locate a Holy Relic of the other two Gods - each lost to the forces of Evil. Game-wise, that gives you 2 full Arcs (with nifty loot!) and a way to keep things civilized, NPC-wise.

If you really want to start small, though, find a local Necromancer's hideout and lead your recruits in a Holy Battle, wiping out all the Evil and then sanctifying the place. That's a way to get your Academy's name on the tongue of bards nationwide :smallbiggrin:

[sambo.]

Well, when Paladins can pack at-will Laser-Sword-Of-Smiting powers, they start to whale on undead themselves...

i'm not denying that Paladins make good undead destroyers. they make excellent undead destroyers and have done since 1ed.

it's just my own mindset that large bodies made up only of Paladins simply don't exist. the rigours of the Paladin's calling aren't for everyone.

i could easily accept a large body of Knights (fighters & clerics) with one, maybe two Paladins for every ~1,000 men-at-arms.

but an entire battalion just of Paladins? no.

again, this is my mindset on the subject of Paladins.

[loopy]

<usefulstuff>

Good ideas there. It helps having the backing of the Purple Knights, but I like the idea of questing for more artifacts of Kord and Moradin, if only for the sake of balance.

[Mercenary Pen]

Also, if you're training 'paladins' no matter how strictly you define them (you could easily end up with a few Avengers coming out of your order), you'll need to secure vast reserves of metal to get weapons and heavy armour crafted.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Also, if you're training 'paladins' no matter how strictly you define them (you could easily end up with a few Avengers coming out of your order), you'll need to secure vast reserves of metal to get weapons and heavy armour crafted.
Or get friendly with the local arms dealers :smallbiggrin:

Also: probably should get a different name than "Paladin" for members of the Order. And titles for the various ranks.

Y'know, stuff like that.

[Eorran]

Another possibility to consider is bringing the Raven Queen into the order. She has a vested interest in seeing that the dead stay dead.
Or if your DM likes, have devotees of the Raven Queen set up a competing order. Rivals make for all sorts of fun.

As far as what else you can do - have you established a physical location for this academy? You'll need administrators, a source of funds, set some guidelines. Who is eligible to be recruited? Does the Order pay for equipment? Do they provide any other services?

Oooh... make your own graveyard near the training house, "so you can keep an eye on them."

[tbarrie]

just remember to tithe them. 25% should be sufficient to maintain the castle.

That's not tithing them, it's quartering them.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Oooh... make your own graveyard near the training house, "so you can keep an eye on them."
Personally, I'd go the cremation route. More permanent that way :smalltongue:

I always figured a sun god like Pelor would dig cremations. Had a sun-god Paladin once who felt the same way.

We were always short on oil flask for some reason :smallbiggrin:

EDIT:

That's not tithing them, it's quartering them.
Oi! Keep that up and I'll have to decimate you!

:smalltongue:

[Mando Knight]

I always figured a sun god like Pelor would dig cremations. Had a sun-god Paladin once who felt the same way.

Me, too. In fact, out of the deities, I can't think of a single one outside of the undead-lovers that would specifically dislike cremation, since it's just a means of disposing of a corpse and can be done as ceremoniously or not as normal burial can. The only restriction I can think of is "don't cremate heroes unless you're not planning to raise them or you've got a way to resurrect ashes."

[Oracle_Hunter]

The only restriction I can think of is "don't cremate heroes unless you're not planning to raise them or you've got a way to resurrect ashes."
And that's why we have reliquaries (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reliquary) :smallbiggrin:

[Quietus]

And that's why we have reliquaries (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reliquary) :smallbiggrin:

Ah, but Raise Dead requires an intact body.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Ah, but Raise Dead requires an intact body.
Aw, stupid 4E. I always liked the idea of hanging on to a knuckle-bone of a mighty warrior - just in case you really, really needed one :smalltongue:

Of course, that was more of a 2E thing. Still, good times.

[Inyssius Tor]

Ah, but Raise Dead requires an intact body.

Not... necessarily.


To perform the Raise Dead ritual, you must have a part of the corpse of a creature that died no more than 30 days ago.

The RAI may need the entire corpse--in fact, there's a pretty convincing case for that--but, viewing Raise Dead in isolation, the RAW does not.

So... yay, knucklebones?

(Of course then you run into Gentle Repose issues and arguments about Spirit Idol, but the core idea is technically sound.)

[Oracle_Hunter]

Ha! I knew I wasn't that crazy!

Of course, you also need to cart around an ungodly amount of Residuum to raise an Epic guy :smalltongue:

[Mando Knight]

Ashes are a part of the body. Keep a few grams of the deceased's ashes in an amulet or something until you've got the chance to raise him.

[Asbestos]

Ha! I knew I wasn't that crazy!

Of course, you also need to cart around an ungodly amount of Residuum to raise an Epic guy :smalltongue:

Keep a pet Rust Monster and cover up the part of the MM entry that warns DMs against players using them for this sort of thing.

[Mando Knight]

Keep a pet Rust Monster and cover up the part of the MM entry that warns DMs against players using them for this sort of thing.

In short, find your DM's copy of MM2, and get really good at applying white-out. :smallwink:

[Oracle_Hunter]

Ashes are a part of the body. Keep a few grams of the deceased's ashes in an amulet or something until you've got the chance to raise him.
Well, ashes are less arguable than an actual bone. And knuckle-bones don't tend to get lost in an ill-time breeze :smalltongue:

[Mando Knight]

Well, ashes are less arguable than an actual bone. And knuckle-bones don't tend to get lost in an ill-time breeze :smalltongue:

True, and if you can't raise him in time, you could make dice out of them...

[Oracle_Hunter]

True, and if you can't raise him in time, you could make dice out of them...
Oh man, I bet the knuckle-bones of a saint would roll divinely :smalltongue:

[Mando Knight]

Oh man, I bet the knuckle-bones of a saint would roll divinely :smalltongue:

And thus the Rogue found out that traveling with that Paladin for so long wasn't so bad after all.

[Quietus]

Not... necessarily.



The RAI may need the entire corpse--in fact, there's a pretty convincing case for that--but, viewing Raise Dead in isolation, the RAW does not.

So... yay, knucklebones?

(Of course then you run into Gentle Repose issues and arguments about Spirit Idol, but the core idea is technically sound.)

Oh right, 4e. Sorry, haven't really played with that yet, I likes my 3.5.

[loopy]

So, had another session. The Shadeslayer academy now numbers at 100 students, with addtional support staff (though generally all students take part in maintenance).

We (as in, Thoradin and I) both have 1st level Paladin lieutenants, our representatives while we are out adventuring.

My right hand is Barakus, male Dragonborn avenging Paladin, who wields a truly massive daikatana and has a fu manchu moustache.

Thoradin has a female tiefling protecting Paladin, the name of which escapes me at the moment.

Still, our lieutenants are cool, we have 100 students being trained, and I'm trying to figure out how to outfit our little army while we are out adventuring for a relic of Kord.

(So far I've just been swiping longswords and flails from the hobgoblins we've been killing and stuffing them in my bag of holding)

EDIT: Also, hobgoblins killed Krusk's noble steed, Rabbit. He flew into a beserk rage and killed them all.

EDIT the second: My respect for SilverClawShift increases further. Its so hard to type up posts and make them sound remotely interesting.