Whitening your skin?

[Pika...]

Until now I thought that was all a myth surrounding Michael Jackson, but just now overhearing some Spanish TV at my aunt's place I heard some doctor talking about a controversy over some sports person say there are various ways (pills, creams, etc) that can do it. I was pretty surprised.

Anyone ever hear about this before?

Would anyone here actually do it?

[Pocketa]

http://mirroronamerica.blogspot.com/2009/03/skin-whitening-all-rage-in-asia.html

My family over there doesn't do it, but apparently knows people that have. As well as gotten the eye surgery that gives them a non-Asian eyelid.

I'm not going to do it, I'm fine with what I got.

[Pika...]

http://mirroronamerica.blogspot.com/2009/03/skin-whitening-all-rage-in-asia.html

My family over there doesn't do it, but apparently knows people that have. As well as gotten the eye surgery that gives them a non-Asian eyelid.

I'm not going to do it, I'm fine with what I got.

Wait, what?!

People here love the Asian look, and many the culture, but there they want to be like us (well, I guess I would not fall under that...)? :smalleek:

[Faulty]

Skin whitening is actually big in Africa, as well. It's because women feel held to the white, blonde picture of beauty.

[Pocketa]

Compare 2 ganguro girls:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v337/nanababy/th_ganguro.jpg (http://media.photobucket.com/image/ganguro/nanababy/ganguro.jpg?o=1)
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_9Z_bZJwb7NQ/Sg7kytVhVRI/AAAAAAAAABE/waZBXhH-tak/s400/ganguro14.jpg

I know very little about it, except it involves bleaching hair and tanning skin to various degrees.

Also, I wear gloves in the summer to keep my skin from tanning (it's natural a tan color, and I barely pass for Asian, and my skin dries too easily), and apparently a lot of people there do to. And use a lot of creams and umbrellas. And umbrella cream...

[Pika...]

Skin whitening is actually big in Africa, as well. It's because women feel held to the white, blonde picture of beauty.

Well, I can kind of see a use for it. Especially for those of us who are born in and assimilate to a culture not of our ancestors.

I don't see myself ever doing it, but I can see the lore of it.

[Faulty]

Use? It's a horribly racist and damaging habit.

[Pika...]

Compare 2 ganguro girls:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v337/nanababy/th_ganguro.jpg (http://media.photobucket.com/image/ganguro/nanababy/ganguro.jpg?o=1)
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_9Z_bZJwb7NQ/Sg7kytVhVRI/AAAAAAAAABE/waZBXhH-tak/s400/ganguro14.jpg

I know very little about it, except it involves bleaching hair and tanning skin to various degrees.

Also, I wear gloves in the summer to keep my skin from tanning (it's natural a tan color, and I barely pass for Asian, and my skin dries too easily), and apparently a lot of people there do to. And use a lot of creams and umbrellas. And umbrella cream...


Just guessing based on your user ID, but since you "barely pass for Asian" do you get mistaken for Hispanic?

Since I saw your new Avatar image today I have been a little confused. Seen you here for a while, but suddenly I am WUT?! O.o

[Faulty]

Look at #8, the Pond's White Beauty thing. (http://www.cracked.com/article/182_8-racist-ads-you-wont-believe-are-from-last-few-years/)

[Pika...]

Use? It's a horribly racist and damaging habit.

It's damaging? I did not know that?


And again, I do not see it as racist. While I am not "trapped between cultures" (I have broken most ties to my ancestor's culture, and when my mother dies I will sever the last of them), I have seen people who are. I imagine such items can help ease things a bit for them. Though I could be wrong (not a psychology major), it is my guess.

[Faulty]

It's an exploitation of the insecurities of minority groups based on systems of racial inequality where what is caucasian is what is beautiful, perfect, etc. and brown and black and tan is dirty.

[Pika...]

Look at #8, the Pond's White Beauty thing. (http://www.cracked.com/article/182_8-racist-ads-you-wont-believe-are-from-last-few-years/)

:smalleek:


Well, I had no idea they still thought of "British beauty" that way.


As someone who's ghetto African American said during a D&D gaming session "Dude, you're so white washed I could throw bleach on you and you would not get lighter" (followed by the group breaking into laughter) I feel this gives a whole new meaning to the term.

A cream/pill can actually change a person that much?

It even said you could choose between normal creamy white and pinkish white. I knew there was goth-girl-pale white (an unusual favorite of mine...), but I did not know there was such careful distinctions.

[Pika...]

It's an exploitation of the insecurities of minority groups based on systems of racial inequality where what is caucasian is what is beautiful, perfect, etc. and brown and black and tan is dirty.

Wait, I thought that whiteish has always been a sign of beauty. Something about being pale/white meant a woman is wealthy and healthy (aka she has not been working out in the fields all day), while being tan/dark means one is poor. Am I remembering this wrong?

[Fiendish_Dire_Moose]

Wish I could whiten my skin some more. I don't look enough like I'm dead. And when I'm singing lead for the future greatest death metal band ever, I don't want to have to add white face paint.

[Icewalker]

Well, within a single culture, there have been ideas of tan skin means outdoors and working while light skin means indoors/well off, but when you look at the inter-cultural world today the idea stops working, because with diversity involved, skin is a sign of race, rather than class. By implying that the two are connected, you run into problems of racism.

[Dracomorph]

Wait, I thought that whiteish has always been a sign of beauty. Something about being pale/white meant a woman is wealthy and healthy (aka she has not been working out in the fields all day), while being tan/dark means one is poor. Am I remembering this wrong?

Well, that's not wrong in a historical European sense. But the thing to remember is that the current beauty ideal isn't based on that, it's based around who the rich and powerful are, or more specifically, what the powerless AREN'T.

In the US, it's considered fashionable for white folks to be a little tan, because that's no longer common in less wealthy households, and requires an extra investiture of resources. Think peacocks; if you can afford to spend resources on unnecessary crud, then you must have plenty to start with, if you can spend them on something so frivolous.

[Pika...]

Well, within a single culture, there have been ideas of tan skin means outdoors and working while light skin means indoors/well off, but when you look at the inter-cultural world today the idea stops working, because with diversity involved, skin is a sign of race, rather than class. By implying that the two are connected, you run into problems of racism.

I see. I guess that I was thinking of past presteam and airplane times.


I still find it funny, though, that on the other side of the world they are trying to get lighter, and ever here we are trying to tan ourselves.

Last week two of my D&D friends (a female and a male) were talking about they have problem tanning due to being pale, and I joked about how I always found it strange that they want to get tans while I have a 24/7 one and all it does is save me a few cents by letting me get a weaker brand of sunscreen. :smallbiggrin:

I really don't understand our silly little world sometimes.

[Serpentine]

Wait, I thought that whiteish has always been a sign of beauty. Something about being pale/white meant a woman is wealthy and healthy (aka she has not been working out in the fields all day), while being tan/dark means one is poor. Am I remembering this wrong?Among Europeans, this is true. To the best of my knowledge (which is poor), though, the association between colour and class are strictly European inventions (note: I know that there's this issue in South America, but this is, as I understand it, because of Spanish/Portuguese-native American tensions, and therefore still a European institution).

[Pocketa]

I think that at least in Asian cultures, it's not seen as as big of a deal. Girls like the Ganguro Girls and G-Lol's (not typing the word as to avoid word filters if they're there, tl;dr looks like victorian Goth dolls but isn't related at all) have skin tones different from the norm by choice.

I'm half Chinese, half white. Really full, I guess, because culturally, the white half was not involved in my upbringing (not a big deal, stuff happens) and I was raised culturally Chinese.

I was raised on a farm, tons of sun, I got tan, we had a pool. I moved to the city, where nobody was tan. Literally. Not even tan-in-a-can fakin'-bakin'. So I made an effort to pale up, because I was teased for being tan (not in a racist way, the fact I had tan lines, like everyone from my town did, and on that note: I think tan lines are nothing to be ashamed of, at least on minors, because we're not supposed to be acting like adults yet). So, I wore pants, long sleeves, and umbrellas for about 2 years, which was silly, and I barely paled up. Seeing as my natural skintone is about what white skin looks like when tan.

Now, I don't mind it as much. It's something I have, and I'm not ashamed of.

However, I do wear sun screen because my family has a propensity for skin cancer, so I want to be careful, and I do use parasols, wear long sleeves to keep cool (cotton fabrics), etc.

I think people need to be wary of their safety. If one must have a different skin tone, I'd not bleach it. What if you ever want to switch back? Wouldn't work right, because of color matching etc. Plus, looks sort of fake, just like if somebody puts foundation on their face but not their neck and ears, as seen here:

http://www.neatorama.com/images/2006-10/goth-makeup.jpg

Ears and neck do not match the face! So imagine if it was permanent. Blech! You'd have to dye your whole body. What if you were allergic to these products, which aren't regulated very well? Not a good option. Makeup comes off and while it's bad for your skin, it doesn't do as harsh permanent damage.

Also, photoshop.

http://th04.deviantart.net/fs41/300W/f/2009/049/f/7/EmoXCore_by_300pockets.jpg


Some kids at my school do see having a paler skin tone as a sign of superiority, and that's sad, because your epidermis is not connected to your brain.

[AtomicKitKat]

Darker skin is apparently more prone to producing keloids(Wikipedia). That being said, as a general rule, men will tend to be darker than women of a similar genetic lineage(something about being picked for the ability to run after prey out in the sun all day). This is probably also the same thing that selects for thicker brow ridges(to shield the eyes from glare) and higher density of sweat glands(for more rapid cooling), but don't quote me on that.

[Pika...]

I think that at least in Asian cultures, it's not seen as as big of a deal. Girls like the Ganguro Girls and G-Lol's (not typing the word as to avoid word filters if they're there, tl;dr looks like victorian Goth dolls but isn't related at all) have skin tones different from the norm by choice.

I'm half Chinese, half white. Really full, I guess, because culturally, the white half was not involved in my upbringing (not a big deal, stuff happens) and I was raised culturally Chinese.

I was raised on a farm, tons of sun, I got tan, we had a pool. I moved to the city, where nobody was tan. Literally. Not even tan-in-a-can fakin'-bakin'. So I made an effort to pale up, because I was teased for being tan (not in a racist way, the fact I had tan lines, like everyone from my town did, and on that note: I think tan lines are nothing to be ashamed of, at least on minors, because we're not supposed to be acting like adults yet). So, I wore pants, long sleeves, and umbrellas for about 2 years, which was silly, and I barely paled up. Seeing as my natural skintone is about what white skin looks like when tan.

Now, I don't mind it as much. It's something I have, and I'm not ashamed of.

However, I do wear sun screen because my family has a propensity for skin cancer, so I want to be careful, and I do use parasols, wear long sleeves to keep cool (cotton fabrics), etc.

I think people need to be wary of their safety. If one must have a different skin tone, I'd not bleach it. What if you ever want to switch back? Wouldn't work right, because of color matching etc. Plus, looks sort of fake, just like if somebody puts foundation on their face but not their neck and ears, as seen here:

http://www.neatorama.com/images/2006-10/goth-makeup.jpg

Ears and neck do not match the face! So imagine if it was permanent. Blech! You'd have to dye your whole body. What if you were allergic to these products, which aren't regulated very well? Not a good option. Makeup comes off and while it's bad for your skin, it doesn't do as harsh permanent damage.

Also, photoshop.

http://th04.deviantart.net/fs41/300W/f/2009/049/f/7/EmoXCore_by_300pockets.jpg


Some kids at my school do see having a paler skin tone as a sign of superiority, and that's sad, because your epidermis is not connected to your brain.

Oh, I see.

My apologies. I did not want to intrude on your personal information.

I merely meant your username says Pocketa, so I always assumed you were Hispanic.

[Inhuman Bot]

Oh, I see.

My apologies. I did not want to intrude on your personal information.

I merely meant your username says Pocketa, so I always assumed you were Hispanic.

...How are those connected? >.>

[Pika...]

...How are those connected? >.>

Well, although I failed Spanish (for Americans...) three times in high school, I believe pocketa means little in a female tense (pocketo would be the male tense I believe). Hence it sounded like a Hispanic name, or a username only a Hispanic would use.

Particularly sounds like something one would use as a loving nickname for a young female.

[Dragonrider]

Well, although I failed Spanish (for Americans...) three times in high school, I believe pocketa means little in a female tense (pocketo would be the male tense I believe). Hence it sounded like a Hispanic name, or a username only a Hispanic would use.

Particularly sounds like something one would use as a loving nickname for a young female.

Pequeña or pequeño?

[Pocketa]

Well, although I failed Spanish (for Americans...) three times in high school, I believe pocketa means little in a female tense (pocketo would be the male tense I believe). Hence it sounded like a Hispanic name, or a username only a Hispanic would use.

Particularly sounds like something one would use as a loving nickname for a young female.

I get this all the time. It's because pockets, my usual name, was taken, and I didn't want to add a number to it like I usually do. I take spanish and have a lot of spanish-speaking friends and friends from Latin American/South American countries (most only speak English), and I think it's a great culture. I like to think of myself as somewhat small, hence Pocketa instead of Pocketo

POCKETO!

Posts available wherever Pocketa posts are found!

"To the busy man, the day has 100 pockets" - Nietzche
100 x 3=300

Because I've got a social, academic, and internet life.

[Pika...]

Pequeña or pequeño?

Sorry, my Spanish not very good...Mi Spaniol no muy weno.



And here I thought you were Caucasian. Eh, being the muts of the world is always so confusing when trying to point us out. At least for me. :smallconfused:

[loopy]

Well I like Pocketa. Don't know why. So there! :smallsmile:

[Pika...]

I get this all the time. It's because pockets, my usual name, was taken, and I didn't want to add a number to it like I usually do. I take spanish and have a lot of spanish-speaking friends and friends from Latin American/South American countries (most only speak English), and I think it's a great culture. I like to think of myself as somewhat small, hence Pocketa instead of Pocketo

POCKETO!

Posts available wherever Pocketa posts are found!

"To the busy man, the day has 100 pockets" - Nietzche
100 x 3=300

Because I've got a social, academic, and internet life.


Oh, OK. Glad that wa snot just me being dumb.

For a bit there I was like "Hmm. Maybe I should call up my aunt tomorrow and ask if I was reading this word right.".

[Don Julio Anejo]

Skin whitening is the stupidest thing I've heard in a while... Especially considering all those women doing the "fake tan" thing, and not just at tanning salons which at least give you an actual tan, but also using tan cream...

[toasty]

Among Europeans, this is true. To the best of my knowledge (which is poor), though, the association between colour and class are strictly European inventions (note: I know that there's this issue in South America, but this is, as I understand it, because of Spanish/Portuguese-native American tensions, and therefore still a European institution).

Oh, its also big in Asia. The rich people are pale and the laborers who work in the fields are dark.

In Bangladesh, its a huge industry, whitening cream. EVERYONE wears Whitening cream (well, not all the guys, but the girls do) and its kinda... disgusting. In a nation where women already don't have a lot of rights and are often openly treated poorly, openly subjecting darker-skinned women to well... skin-color bias (?) isn't the most kind thing in the world. It can has come to the point for some women when they don't get a job or don't get married (3rd world country, women don't have a lot of rights, marriage is important) because of their skin color (how do jobs and skin color match? Unless you're a model? :smallannoyed:).

Plus, Bengalis who try to look like white people don't look good: they look damn ugly and unnatural.

NOTE: I'm not Bangladesh, I'm American. I have white skin and I like it that way. I don't want dark/tan/other colored skin, just longer hair. :smalltongue:

[Anuan]

And here I thought you were Caucasian. Eh, being the muts of the world is always so confusing when trying to point us out. At least for me. :smallconfused:

Hint: White people can take Spanish classes and pass :smallwink:

[Serpentine]

My boy makes fun of me for being brown <.< (in a "making fun of racism irony by proxy" sort of a way)
Dagnabbit, I LIKE being brown! It's good stuff! Healthy and all that jazz. Not that ivory skin doesn't also have its charms, but... BROWN! Also, I adore the really black black that some Africans have. It's beautiful.

[HellfireLover]

Heh. Everyone makes fun of me for being the stereotypically milk-bottle-hued Scot, in a culture where a sun-shower three times a week teamed with regular highlights, so skin and hair become an all-over regular caramel-to-orange hue, is the 'common' beauty ideal.

[Pika...]

Hint: White people can take Spanish classes and pass :smallwink:

Hey, don't rub it in.

My family still does. :smallconfused:

[Pika...]

Heh. Everyone makes fun of me for being the stereotypically milk-bottle-hued Scot, in a culture where a sun-shower three times a week teamed with regular highlights, so skin and hair become an all-over regular caramel-to-orange hue, is the 'common' beauty ideal.

Do you have the beautiful red hair and green eyes?

I simply melt for Irish or Scottish women. (I know, awkward...)

[charl]

I would love to have darker skin. My Nordic ancestry makes it so I can barely stand direct sunshine without getting burned, and being a redhead doesn't help either (I don't tan I get freckles instead).

[bosssmiley]

Among Europeans, this is true. To the best of my knowledge (which is poor), though, the association between colour and class are strictly European inventions (note: I know that there's this issue in South America, but this is, as I understand it, because of Spanish/Portuguese-native American tensions, and therefore still a European institution).

Indian caste system. Lighter-skinned Indo-Europeans traditionally predominated in the higher castes, darker-skinned (and Dravidian speakers) in the lower. Bollywood still uses "dark-skinned = yokel/bumpkin/oik" stereotypes, and India has social and political problems with colour-and-caste racism to this day.

(generalization, but good enough for the Playground)

Skin-whitening, like grilling yourself orange on sunbeds, can actually be dangerous in light of climactic variations. Light skin in tropical countries = greater propensity to skin cancer (hence all those paint-slathered Aussies on the beach); darker, more melanotic skin at higher latitudes = less vitamin D uptake and higher risk of Type 2 Diabetes.

Fashion: actually dumber than blind evolutionary forces.

[Serpentine]

I didn't realise the caste system involved skin colour.

[Winter_Wolf]

Chinese people that I've known always go on about how they wish they had whiter skin, it's some kind of cultural relic about how people with really pale skin don't need to be outside toiling. I then get to explain that most Westerners tend to go for that bronzed look because we think pale skin is mostly associated with illness and an inability to be outside. (I bronze quite nicely, which is why this conversation keeps coming up.)

There are numerous products that can lighten the skin tone, though it's my understanding you're gonna have a heck of a time finding that kind of stuff in places where there are few Asians.

[Nameless]

My aunt knows an Indian person who works in the post office who’s skin is actually turning white, but it’s quite patchy. He currently has more white patches then the olive/brownish tone he was born with.

[YPU]

My ancestry is so mixed that everybody seems to think I’m from their part of the world. For as far as I know it my family three stays within the lowlands of the Netherlands and Belgium. But the number of times I get spoken to in Hispanic, middle eastern or oriental languages, really, I have no idea how I should classify my skin tone if everybody seems to think its the same as theirs.

[LXH]

The sports star the OP is referring to is retired baseball player Sammy Sosa, who is Dominican. Sammy seems to have gotten into some post retirement skin "replenishment," which caused the transformation below to happen:
http://media.silive.com/entertainment_impact_tvfilm/photo/sammy-sosajpg-70e5596f678dda2a_large.jpg

Hispañola is unique but with typical race issues, being another island of brown and black people living with internalized colonial ideals of skin beauty. Apparently racism among white/brown Dominicans, or even black Dominicans (burnt Indians, as some prefer), toward their neighboring Haitians is rampant.

[Arakune]

Good thing in Brasil this trend didn't catched yet. Probably. Yeah, I hope so.




:smalleek:

[Trog]

It's an exploitation of the insecurities of minority groups based on systems of racial inequality where what is caucasian is what is beautiful, perfect, etc. and brown and black and tan is dirty.
Uh... that seems... dramatic. :smallconfused:

More likely it is the "the grass is greener on the other side" thing. Like fake tanning... or real tanning, or dying one's hair, or curling hair that is straight and straightening hair that is curly.

Many people want to be something that they are not.

[LXH]

Good thing in Brasil this trend didn't catched yet. Probably. Yeah, I hope so.




:smalleek:
I would be very, very surprised if it did not have some kind of presence there. Brazil is another one of those countries with a huge black population, which I recently read to be the largest of any non African nation, while maintaining an unofficial social hierarchy based on skin color. I think at points during the past century the government even took pains to identify the aristocracy as having been descended from Germanic-looking Portuguese nobles, in an effort to ascertain their racial "purity" as opposed to the darker lower classes. Another study done in the 70s had Brazilians identifying their ethnicity in over a hundred different ways. Not many of which contained the word "preto."

Trog: No, he is pretty much right on this one. There is a long trail of ethnic insecurity left behind in nations that fell to colonial influence. The standards of beauty imposed by the ruling class is internalized by the native culture and far outlasts the presence of the colonials themselves. This also is not helped by the developed world's fashion industry's effective boycott of darker skin tones and hair that isn't silky smooth and straight.

[Ashen Lilies]

Not always the case. As stated before by others, the skin whitening business in Asia caters to beauty ideals put in place way before colonial times. Hell, I'm Thai, and the number of skin whitening ads on tv is second only to the number of ads for straight, silky smooth jet black hair. If anything, we're influenced more by China, Korea and Japan than by any 'Caucasian' ideals of beauty.

[Quincunx]

Heh. Everyone makes fun of me for being the stereotypically milk-bottle-hued Scot, in a culture where a sun-shower three times a week teamed with regular highlights, so skin and hair become an all-over regular caramel-to-orange hue, is the 'common' beauty ideal.

. . .but not too orange, or else you get called ginger (at least I believe that's how it goes, my best source tends to RAGE!!!!!!omgffssooooBERSERK! when I ask for specifics)?

[LXH]

Not always the case. As stated before by others, the skin whitening business in Asia caters to beauty ideals put in place way before colonial times. Hell, I'm Thai, and the number of skin whitening ads on tv is second only to the number of ads for straight, silky smooth jet black hair. If anything, we're influenced more by China, Korea and Japan than by any 'Caucasian' ideals of beauty.
Right, it isn't always the case. But the subject the OP brought up was a guy who is of a post colonial culture, and I thought I was clear in that I was referring exclusively to those instances. The fact that it exists elsewhere for a different reason doesn't negate anything.

[Ashen Lilies]

I never got what was so 'wrong' with ginger hair...

Enlighten this Brown-haired Brown-eyed Brown-skinned boy of absolutely no distinguishing features? Is there a historical/cultural reason for it, or is it more a 'let's arbitrarily hate on everyone with this hair color'?

[AtomicKitKat]

My aunt knows an Indian person who works in the post office who’s skin is actually turning white, but it’s quite patchy. He currently has more white patches then the olive/brownish tone he was born with.

He could have vitiligo. He may want to get that checked out. I've seen many East Indians with patchy skin, especially on the hands, and sometimes the face. I always thought it was because they suffered burns(chemical or heat), and the skin regrew pale. Conversely, I've also seen a few Chinese in my time, with big bluish "bruises" on the face. I have no idea how that occurs, although as with most "bad" things, I'm just glad I was spared.

[Telonius]

I'm just waiting for when having a star-shaped spot on your stomach is the new trend. (I know a dude who can hook you up for $3).

[Trog]

I'm just waiting for when having a star-shaped spot on your stomach is the new trend. (I know a dude who can hook you up for $3).
Thread won.

>.>
<.<

*pays $3*

[bosssmiley]

I never got what was so 'wrong' with ginger hair...

Red hair is supposedly the Biblical Mark of Cain. The red of Cain's hair reflecting the innocent blood he spilt. So beat gingas with a clear conscience; you're doing the Lord's work.

Being ginger is also a mark of grotesque multi-generational inbreeding (it being a recessive trait and all...) :smallbiggrin:

So, yeah. Religion and Science agree on one thing: ginger is vile.

[HellfireLover]

I never got what was so 'wrong' with ginger hair...

Enlighten this Brown-haired Brown-eyed Brown-skinned boy of absolutely no distinguishing features? Is there a historical/cultural reason for it, or is it more a 'let's arbitrarily hate on everyone with this hair color'?

It's been suggested that this stems from Roman racism towards the 'barbaric' Celts, in Europe at least, but red hair has also been associated with witchcraft and all round bad juju. It could also be a touch of jealousy, since redheads have the whitest skin (a sign that you didn't have to labour in the sun) and red hair stands out a mile.

Personally, I never got the hate, but then my hair is dark (although it shines red in the sun.) My husband has brown hair but shows *cough* definite signs of being a truly ginger ninja. If you all know what I mean. My mother in law likes to tease him about us having little ugly ginger babies. :smallmad:

[Adlan]

I never got what was so 'wrong' with ginger hair...

Enlighten this Brown-haired Brown-eyed Brown-skinned boy of absolutely no distinguishing features? Is there a historical/cultural reason for it, or is it more a 'let's arbitrarily hate on everyone with this hair color'?

They are different! Kill the Different! Kill them!


Thats pretty much it, there's some talk about it being anti viking prejudice, but I think thats a load of tosh. Humans just don't like things that are different to them and are in the minority. It's a school playground thing, carried into adulthood.


Besides, Only a ginger, can call another ginger, ginger. (Says a Man with Black Hair, but a Red and Black Beard... Mongrel Genetics FTW).

I'm odd, Being half jewish, when I tan, I tan quite dark (I've been confused for arabic or Indian, a Few times native american, which is amusing living in the UK). But in the Winter, by around January when the tan has all faded, my skin is very, very pale.


The fashion for light skin has been around pretty much everywhere with a settled upper class which do not work and rests in the shade* (exceptions being sub saharan africa I think, where melenin production from sunlight is negligible to overall skin melenin content). It's a sign of conspicuous consumption. The Fact that there are modern products to supply it should be no surprise, in the Renessiance, people painted their faces with lead to look whiter.

(*I'm not saying that later actions, eg: collonial racism, haven't also had a strong impact).

[Faulty]

Wait, I thought that whiteish has always been a sign of beauty. Something about being pale/white meant a woman is wealthy and healthy (aka she has not been working out in the fields all day), while being tan/dark means one is poor. Am I remembering this wrong?

This is due to the racist structure of our society. It has to do with the position of white people as the privileged group.

[Serpentine]

My dad looks anything from Moorish or aboriginal to Spanish. One colleague of his tells him how nice it is to see more aboriginals in government positions nowadays! He doesn't have the heart to tell her he's pure English...
My sister and I got part of his dark skin. Speaking of which, I got lightly sunburnt today, so... starting to tan ftw?

[Telonius]

pure English...


Defoe had a few things (http://www.luminarium.org/editions/trueborn.htm) to say about that. :smallbiggrin:

[Trog]

Trog: No, he is pretty much right on this one. There is a long trail of ethnic insecurity left behind in nations that fell to colonial influence. The standards of beauty imposed by the ruling class is internalized by the native culture and far outlasts the presence of the colonials themselves. This also is not helped by the developed world's fashion industry's effective boycott of darker skin tones and hair that isn't silky smooth and straight.
I don't disagree with the idea that the history of white exploitation had/still has detrimental side effects. Perhaps I'm only talking about an American ideal of beauty and not an other country's. First of all I disagree with the white = beautiful thing anyway. As far as I can tell beauty in the U.S. seems to be somewhere in between the extremes of light and dark skin now. In the 80's or before that wasn't the case though, certainly.

I guess I see the media's ideal of beauty as first and foremost being in shape, second being tan - not white. I know a great many white people who tan to make themselves "look better." A dark skinned person using some product to make themselves look closer to tan is, essentially, doing the very same thing.

The only dark skinned person that I know of that went to the extreme of using such a product or procedure to become an actual white skin tone was Michael Jackson (unless that skin disease claim of his was true) and I don't think many would follow his lead to go further than being tan. If they do they are the exception rather than the rule.

I don't regard either of these practices (qualifier: in America) to be:

an exploitation of the insecurities of minority groups based on systems of racial inequality where what is caucasian is what is beautiful, perfect, etc. and brown and black and tan is dirty.Perhaps in other countries this practice speaks to other things and is different.

EDIT:
While we are on the subject I think I have a pretty good idea why tan is considered beautiful. Largely this has to do with the actual reasons behind skin color differences in the first place (see this (http://www.ted.com/talks/nina_jablonski_breaks_the_illusion_of_skin_color.h tml) to learn more) and Hollywood's location on a map. They are in the tan skin range, therefore tan is synonymous with southern CA, and since Hollywood is synonymous with beauty... and in southern CA... you do the math.

[Dragonrider]

I don't disagree with the idea that the history of white exploitation had/still has detrimental side effects. Perhaps I'm only talking about an American ideal of beauty and not an other country's. First of all I disagree with the white = beautiful thing anyway. As far as I can tell beauty in the U.S. seems to be somewhere in between the extremes of light and dark skin now. In the 80's or before that wasn't the case though, certainly.

I guess I see the media's ideal of beauty as first and foremost being in shape, second being tan - not white. I know a great many white people who tan to make themselves "look better." A dark skinned person using some product to make themselves look closer to tan is, essentially, doing the very same thing.

I agree that white does not equal beautiful. However, I also think that there is still a great deal of skin-color prejudice in some places and that the whitening thing is a pretty dangerous move as far as that goes.

It's the same problem I have with the fact that most African-American women (including our first lady and her daughters, at least for formal events) straighten their hair. Women who wear their hair curly are seen as less respectable and are discriminated against in the workplace (the evidence I've heard is both secondhand and anecdotal, but being a curly, I can see it happening). And while this by itself is a bad thing, I also can see it being an extension of racial prejudice and therefore, because of historical issues, a bigger problem than just railroad fashion.

tl;dr, I dislike the tanning trend but I think that it has less of a 'racial' implication than the skin-whitening thing, at least in the United States.



I just read this post and wanted to cry at all the passive voice. I think I need to take a break from writing essays, because maybe if I do, passive will stop bothering me so much. :smallamused:

[AtomicKitKat]

Brainiac tested and found Ginge's to have the lowest pain tolerance. That could contribute.:smalltongue:

[Trog]

Look at #8, the Pond's White Beauty thing. (http://www.cracked.com/article/182_8-racist-ads-you-wont-believe-are-from-last-few-years/)
Holy crap! :smalleek: Yeah that Ponds commercial is something I find horrendous. The marketing of these products might make me change my mind about whitening your skin being okay. Ultimately it depends on why you would do such a thing. If the company making these products is saying you should do it because otherwise you will not be seen as attractive it is horribly racist. People of all sorts of different skin colors are beautiful, imo.

But yet even though ad #7 is sort of doing the opposite I found it hilarious. Especially the sequel, LOL! :smallbiggrin: But then again the whole ad is more tongue-in-cheek. The seriousness and berating manner of #8's message is what makes it so horrific I think.

EDIT: And the fact that the dark skinned woman in the Ponds ad is absolutely beautiful - skin cream or no skin cream. The white guy in #7 isn't exactly the most handsome and fit guy to begin with.

tl;dr, I dislike the tanning trend but I think that it has less of a 'racial' implication than the skin-whitening thing, at least in the United States.Well yeah because most people can sit out in the sun and get darker (to a degree) but can't really do anything to get lighter without the help of chemicals, apparently. So it's likely to be seen as unnatural.

[Vmag]

Use? It's a horribly racist and damaging habit.

I just want to point out, this isn't racist; it's a skin-tone thing.

I really want to point out that distinction, being a lad of white ethnicity cursed with such an awesome tan due to years in the tropics that said ethnicity isn't ever believed.

Blind yourselves all you wish, it's never about race; it's the skin.

[SDF]

Race largely amounts to skin color. Genetically there isn't much to it.

I have vitiligo, you know, the Michael Jackson disease that made him white. I'm already just about the whitest kid I know so it doesn't amount to much, a shock of white hair on my head, a few white pubic hairs, and a really white tailbone.

I think skin whitening is a bit weird, but probably culturally so. I mean one of my best friends is a tattoo artist so I suppose that would be just as weird to some people. There is an entire cosmetic surgery culture in the western world that probably seems freaky to people removed from it.

[Dragonrider]

Blind yourselves all you wish, it's never about race; it's the skin.

Race is socially constructed. :smalltongue: Most people judge it by skin color, because you can't really define it by anything other than physical characteristics. Although I suppose 'race' and 'culture' have kind of become conflated....

[Coidzor]

^: Well, racial cultures, don't you know...

The weirdest thing is that the biggest racist issues with beauty are more about facial shape and structure than skin tone alone anyway, so changing the skin tone to one where the facial shape and structure just...doesn't fit seems like it would be an overall aesthetic detraction.


I have vitiligo, you know, the Michael Jackson disease that made him white. I'm already just about the whitest kid I know so it doesn't amount to much, a shock of white hair on my head, a few white pubic hairs, and a really white tailbone.


<_< Um. Bones are naturally fairly white anyway.

Did you have a tail that had to be removed and you got to keep the bone or something?

[SDF]

Stop being pedantic...

We focus on the face so much because that is the one thing we are hardwired to recognize more than anything else. The fact that people can "see" faces in everyday objects or art is due to this. You probably couldn't recognize a lot of your friends by just their body, but you could remember someone you've seen once or twice by just their face. Skin pigmentation largely depends on where your ancestors were geographically, not even necessarily what ethnicity they were.

[Eldpollard]

I've whitened my skin to a deathly pallor, by my horrible living habits of work, two much internet and a shunning of the sun. Plus it's winter and is absolutely freezing outside.

[Cobra_Ikari]

I just want to point out, this isn't racist; it's a skin-tone thing.

I really want to point out that distinction, being a lad of white ethnicity cursed with such an awesome tan due to years in the tropics that said ethnicity isn't ever believed.

Blind yourselves all you wish, it's never about race; it's the skin.

Actually, I kinda have to agree with this. Using something that lightens your skin isn't really...racist? Or, if it is, it's racist against...your own race. I'm assuming, of course, that people with light skin aren't trying to lighten their skin further. Or if they are, it isn't for reasons of "looking more like a light-skinned race".

Use seems more related to low self-esteem and blaming your physical appearance for something with that. Which, you know, tons of people do already, regardless of race.

The promotion, though...well, I wouldn't even call that racist, either. More like...preying on the insecurities of people who would use that product by "affirming" the "truth" of these harmful beliefs. Which, really, is how you sell lots of products in an unethical manner. >.>

[Hell Puppi]

I've only really heard of it because of a short goth phase I went through. I guess quite a few people do it to get the palest of pale complexions.
I guess it's also good for removing damage/uneven spots.
I can totally understand someone being angry about pale skin being beautiful, but I suppose that's more of your own 'beauty myth'. I mean, after all, how many pale people like myself who can't get a tan to save their lives feel that 'tan' skin is beautiful?
I don't know. I think it's less of a race thing and more anger at the standard of beauty and how it's simply everything that you aren't no matter who you are =P.

[Coidzor]

Hell Puppi: Beauty is, indeed, fleeting. As even in one's youth and best vitality what is beauty keeps changing in addition to, y'know, picking up its bags and leaving at a moment's notice.

Almost as bad as the Lady.


Stop being pedantic...

<_< I was just hoping you had a tail. Which would've been awesome save for the fact it had to get cut off. :/

[Pika...]

I think skin whitening is a bit weird, but probably culturally so. I mean one of my best friends is a tattoo artist so I suppose that would be just as weird to some people. There is an entire cosmetic surgery culture in the western world that probably seems freaky to people removed from it.


I was wondering about that.

These creams are supposedly harmful and dangerous, and promote bad views of oneself in our culture, but have you ever seen a plastic surgery operation on TV?

How they cut open a woman's breast, lop the svered things to the side a bit, and stuff things inside? Just to give an artificial sense of beauty and self-esteem.

Have you seen a lipo one done? Oh my god. You are taking a hose and sucking out your insides. :smalleek:

And yes, there is a chance you can die in these operations just like in any other. People keep forgetting that due to terms like "cosmetic surgery".

[Pika...]

The promotion, though...well, I wouldn't even call that racist, either. More like...preying on the insecurities of people who would use that product by "affirming" the "truth" of these harmful beliefs. Which, really, is how you sell lots of products in an unethical manner. >.>


http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f173/celestialkin/enzytelawsuitbustedliars.jpg

Someone would like to have a talk with you...

[Cobra_Ikari]

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f173/celestialkin/enzytelawsuitbustedliars.jpg

Someone would like to have a talk with you...

Right. I think this is no different. I'm less inclined to believe the people selling such a product think "These people will be better with lighter skin.", and more inclined to believe they think "These people believe they will be better with lighter skin, and we should capitalize on this by reinforcing this belief."

Silly Smilin' Bob. I don't need your product, trust me. :smallwink: [/huge ego =P]

[Dragonrider]

Actually, I kinda have to agree with this. Using something that lightens your skin isn't really...racist? Or, if it is, it's racist against...your own race. I'm assuming, of course, that people with light skin aren't trying to lighten their skin further. Or if they are, it isn't for reasons of "looking more like a light-skinned race".

I dunno . . . it's not racist, but I think one could make the argument that it is a product of racism.


Edit: Sorry if italics are annoying. I like them. :smalltongue:

[Vmag]

I think it's pretty ethnocentric to assume that wanting lighter skin instantly comes from a desire to become white, or that beauty comes from whiteness.

After all, the Asian-derived members of this board have mentioned how a lot of the desire for lightness in the Asian world comes from the belief that whiteness comes from the luxurious life free from manual labour, and thus there's a certain elegance to it; putting the blame more on Asian culture than the Anglos.

Different cultures have different takes on skin tone. That ours might be pretty selfish enough to assume that "white = us; other = other; lighter skin = wanting to be us" doesn't mean that other cultures will take it to mean that.

[SDF]

Silly Smilin' Bob. I don't need your product, trust me. :smallwink: [/huge ego =P]

Well, you are 20 so I would hope not.

I think there is an inherent stigma that comes with the word race that people are trying to say isn't there. I think socially it always factors in. It may not be the predominant reason, but it is there. Stereotypes always play into why people would want to appear the way they want. People hardly ever do it for themselves and want to present an image to others. x cognitive reasons go into this decision, and you can't say it is for one reason over another. Certain people get lipo to present a thinner image, others will do it because they've tried everything else and it is a drastic health decision.

[Cobra_Ikari]

Well, you are 20 so I would hope not.

Enzyte's not for ED. It's one of those magical "male enhancement" pills that don't actually do anything. =P

[SDF]

Ooh, its one of those pills that makes you walk around with a half stack?(for lack of a better term) :smalltongue: Now there is a product that preys on western male insecurity, and makes me laugh.

[Trog]

I think it's pretty ethnocentric to assume that wanting lighter skin instantly comes from a desire to become white, or that beauty comes from whiteness.
This. I'm white text and the other text wants to be just like me!!1! =P

[thubby]

is this really any more ridiculous than implanting plastic bags in ones chest, or implanting back hair on ones head?
it's certainly a new addition to the beauty line, but not anything worse than we've seen, as sad as that is.

[Arakune]

I would be very, very surprised if it did not have some kind of presence there. Brazil is another one of those countries with a huge black population, which I recently read to be the largest of any non African nation, while maintaining an unofficial social hierarchy based on skin color. I think at points during the past century the government even took pains to identify the aristocracy as having been descended from Germanic-looking Portuguese nobles, in an effort to ascertain their racial "purity" as opposed to the darker lower classes. Another study done in the 70s had Brazilians identifying their ethnicity in over a hundred different ways. Not many of which contained the word "preto."

It's mostly "mulato" and some times "pardo", but so far this "whitening" stuff didn't hit the main stream yet. That and a lot of celebrities like to have a tan, in fact the last trend here was to get artificial tan. Maybe it's old news, though.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Geeze, this stuff is just nuts. I admit to preferring the pale gals but that skin whitening stuff is gross.

My sister is ghostly pale but she's lightly freckled, and she'll try almost anything to hide them, despite everyone telling her that freckles AREN'T UGLY. What's funny is she's marrying a dark, dark skinned mexican fella, so they're thinking between the two they might get some kids that have a year round California tan :smalltongue:


Edit: Btw, what the friggin'... Brazilians of any tone are HOT.

[Cobra_Ikari]

Random, semi-related thoughts.

Are tans attractive nowadays for the same reason that pale skin used to be, with the shift from people working mostly outdoors to many people working indoors all day? That you have the time and wealth to lounge around outside doing nothing, instead of lounging around inside doing nothing?

I also have known people that think tanned skin looks "exotic", which I've picked up to mean finding people from Asian or Hispanic backgrounds "exotically attractive", and trying to emulate this. Which seems to be on a similar track. >.>

[toddex]

Wait, what?!

People here love the Asian look, and many the culture, but there they want to be like us (well, I guess I would not fall under that...)? :smalleek:

I just want to note that you just broke down japanese, chinese, korean, and many other cultures into one giant culture... lmfao

[Nageto004]

I realy want to get ahold of something like this.

[Kneenibble]

Toasty mentioned ladies in Bangladesh, and I don't know if it's the same treatment, but when I was in India, many women -- usually poor Tamil women, since I was in Chennai -- had greenish yellow faces. They apply a kind of turmeric paste to their face which stains the skin, but supposedly once the stain fades away the skin is lighter and younger-looking too. But to a foreigner who had no idea about that, it was really scary to see. GHOULS IN SARIS! FLEE!

The construction of colour-as-caste was not just an idea though, it was a reality. Light-skinned Hindi speakers from the north had the money and the power and were depicted in all the fashion ads, dark-skinned Tamil speakers from the south were their servants, drivers, the rabble of the street. The proportion of Hindi-speaking fair people to Tamil-speaking dark people, among the wealthy & educated that I met, was almost 1:0. It's shocking and alien to my sensibilities, but then again Canada with its red underbelly is nobody to judge.

[Coidzor]

I just want to note that you just broke down japanese, chinese, korean, and many other cultures into one giant culture... lmfao

Yeah, some of the people who are like "I want to emulate any culture that's of racial origins not of my own but from the mystic orient" do the same sort of thing, even...

Kind of an interesting failing.

Edit: Btw, what the friggin'... Brazilians of any tone are HOT.

Well, unless they're some of the unlucky few. ...Those poor, poor bastards.:smallfrown:

[golentan]

I just want to note that you just broke down japanese, chinese, korean, and many other cultures into one giant culture... lmfao

Sort of similar to how people refer to "western culture?"

Yeah. I worry about anything that changes the chemical content of your skin. It seems like a bad idea. At a rough breakdown I can think of are UV, Dyes, Targeted Enzymes, and tattoo ink. And I guess you could bleach, but that seems like the dumbest idea since using smallpox as an acne cure. All of which have risks of cancer, disease, tissue damage...

Most of which are painful...

Yeah.

[Innis Cabal]

Ooh, its one of those pills that makes you walk around with a half stack?(for lack of a better term) :smalltongue: Now there is a product that preys on western male insecurity, and makes me laugh.

Just Western? I think its Male Insecurity all around.

[Cobra_Ikari]

Just Western? I think its Male Insecurity all around.

Western male insecurity has nothing on the male insecurity of Africa. Where you can be lynched for being suspected of stealing someone's penis. Yup.

[Faulty]

Just Western? I think its Male Insecurity all around.

In Ancient Greece smaller penises were considered more attractive.

[Trog]

In communist Russia, penis insecure about YOU!

Though seriously, what were we talking about? Oh. Right. Skin whitening. >.>

[Coidzor]

In communist Russia, penis insecure about YOU!

Though seriously, what were we talking about? Oh. Right. Skin whitening. >.>

Maybe they're worried about their genitalia becoming communist and that's why they want to whiten them up? :smallconfused:

[Cobra_Ikari]

In communist Russia, penis insecure about YOU!

Though seriously, what were we talking about? Oh. Right. Skin whitening. >.>

Well, it was sorta on topic! In an "unhealthy things to change your self image to reflect an ideal that isn't all that great in the first place, and the ways they prey on people's insecurities" fashion. >.>

[Trog]

Maybe they're worried about their genitalia becoming communist and that's why they want to whiten them up? :smallconfused:
To strangely merge both of these topics, I had once heard that some men lighten up their genitalia to "improve" the appearance using a cream like the one that this thread has been going on about. There now. Now you have something else to be sensitive about regarding that portion of your anatomy, guys. Wheeee! :smalltongue:

[Coidzor]

To strangely merge both of these topics, I had once heard that some men lighten up their genitalia to "improve" the appearance using a cream like the one that this thread has been going on about. There now. Now you have something else to be sensitive about regarding that portion of your anatomy, guys. Wheeee! :smalltongue:

Don't people of both sexes do something similar to the area around their gluteals?

[Pika...]

]I also have known people that think tanned skin looks "exotic", which I've picked up to mean finding people from Asian or Hispanic backgrounds "exotically attractive", and trying to emulate this. Which seems to be on a similar track. >.>

Well, a lot of Caucasian guys here love Hispanic girls.

And some Hispanic guys (like myself) love the Caucasian girls. The paler the better. A good redhead with uberpaleness and freckles would be a dream come true for me. :smallsmile:

I guess people really do think the grass is greaner on the other side?

[Pika...]

I just want to note that you just broke down japanese, chinese, korean, and many other cultures into one giant culture... lmfao

Oh, I am so sorry. I forgot to type an s after culture.

I do not proofread for forums. I have a life. :smallannoyed:

[Cobra_Ikari]

I'm also Hispanic. Woo, pride! =D

...out of curiosity, how do you ask what culture someone is when their general race is apparent. I've taken to asking new Hispanic and Asian people I meet what flavor they are. Worked pretty well so far (in that the question is understood, and I get a giggle/flirt and a response).

[charl]

I'm also Hispanic. Woo, pride! =D

...out of curiosity, how do you ask what culture someone is when their general race is apparent. I've taken to asking new Hispanic and Asian people I meet what flavor they are. Worked pretty well so far (in that the question is understood, and I get a giggle/flirt and a response).

Depends. If they are foreigners (or you are a foreigner yourself) you could always ask "Where are you from?". Otherwise it's a bit more sensitive. And really, does it matter that much? I know, we are all curious, but in the end culture and race is pretty irrelevant for basically everything.

[Cobra_Ikari]

Depends. If they are foreigners (or you are a foreigner yourself) you could always ask "Where are you from?". Otherwise it's a bit more sensitive. And really, does it matter that much? I know, we are all curious, but in the end culture and race is pretty irrelevant for basically everything.

Mmm. Well, many Hispanic cultures are rather similar, so it's not a huge deal, but the major Asian cultures are radically different from each other.

And I ask because I'm curious. I'm the child of immigrants, so a lot of my upbringing still had bits of distinct Cuban culture to it. I know lots of other immigrants' kids who had similarly cultured upbringings.

It's more a topic of conversation than anything super important.

[xanaphia]

http://mirroronamerica.blogspot.com/2009/03/skin-whitening-all-rage-in-asia.html

My family over there doesn't do it, but apparently knows people that have. As well as gotten the eye surgery that gives them a non-Asian eyelid.

I'm not going to do it, I'm fine with what I got.

Why would anyone not want an Asian style eyelid? They're like the prettiest thing possible on girls.

[golentan]

Why would anyone not want an Asian style eyelid? They're like the prettiest thing possible on girls.

Subjective opinion. Any time you think something is attractive, it will squick someone out.

I, for example, judge attraction to mates based on their color. Green chitin (not really, but I don't know the analog and it looks similar-ish) indicates they share a caste with me (so probably common interests), and if it shades to blue it means they have performed admirably and been rewarded with surplus fish, indicating they would make a very attractive addition to the group marriage.

If I preferred merchants, however, I would look first for violet chitin, with an enlarged abdomen. Some of my friends are merchants, and most people find them attractive to some degree. I don't mind them, but I don't find them gonzo the way I find other soldier castes.

Some merchants choose to dye themselves green and have their stings pointed, and appreciators of merchant beauty ask "Why?" I think the result isn't as nice as a natural soldier would be, but at least they aren't purple now, and I can see why they might have done it. I don't have to approve or agree, but I don't shout "Why?!" any more than when I see a soldier padding her abdomen. I'd be more inclined to question the latter, but I'm aware of my own biases, treat them as such, and don't have time for existential crises (see my sig).

I don't bother for the same reason I don't bother with studding my gripping tentacle: it's a cosmetic change that will attract some, dissuade others, and has no practical benefit either way. And I don't find it particularly appealing. If you find it attractive or want to meet the sort of person it would attract, go ahead. Just... don't expect me to jump out of my seat to get to you, and I'll extend you the same courtesies.

Wow, a chance to be completely honest about what hit's my spots while making a point. Those are few and far between nowadays.

[AtomicKitKat]

Hydroquinalone for sub-waist(or anywhere else, actually) whitening, I think. MJ apparently did have vitiligo(supposedly confirmed at autopsy). By "Asian eyelid", do you mean the "double eyelid"(where the upper lid has a slight crease), or "single eyelid"? Because I've known Asians with both types, and for my family, we're primarily naturally double-eyelidded(no single-eyelids that I can remember off-hand), which I guess, biases me towards picking mates with double-eyelids(for some reason, really squinty-eyes with single-eyelids turn me off, although supposedly, they're "super authentically Oriental" to those who are into that). I'll shut up about this for now.