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crazedloon
2009-11-11, 08:59 AM
Well the discussion of craven has got me wondering what are the must have feats for the base classes? What I am wonder is the feats which are not really build specific and most would consider a must have in any build unless you are making something very very specific. I've tried to start it off and I will try and keep a tally.

Barbarian

power attack

Bard

dragon fire inspiration

Cleric

DMM

Druid

Natural Spell

Fighter

power attack

Monk

-

Paladin

-

Ranger

-

Rogue

Craven

Sorcerers

-

Wizards

Quicken

Crusader

-

Swordsage

Adaptive style

Warblade

-

Eloel
2009-11-11, 09:01 AM
Weapon Finesse -> Rogue

ex cathedra
2009-11-11, 09:07 AM
In my opinion, the only accurate feats there are Natural Spell and Adaptive Style, and perhaps Barbarian's Power Attack.

Craven, DFI, and DMM are all very good, but they're all build specific and not universally useful. DMM is the closest of those to being 'must-have,' I think.

The Gilded Duke
2009-11-11, 09:08 AM
Strength based rogues are easier to pull off.
A little bit more MAD, but much less feat intensive in an already feat craving build.

Why isn't Power Attack under every Full BAB class?
Smite Evil works particularly well with Power Attack.

Telonius
2009-11-11, 09:10 AM
Snowflake Wardance for Bard.
Shock Trooper/Leap Attack for Fighter.
Energy Substitution for Sorcerer.
Flaw: Chicken Infested for Commoner. :smallbiggrin:

Necron
2009-11-11, 09:12 AM
Monk - Improved Natural Attack

Necron
2009-11-11, 09:13 AM
Craven, DFI, and DMM are all very good, but they're all build specific and not universally useful. DMM is the closest of those to being 'must-have,' I think.I agree that those 3 are more build specific and less "You Should Have" types of things.

Korivan
2009-11-11, 09:13 AM
Rapid Casting for Sorcerer. Stops them from having metamagic feats take a whole round. Basically unsucks Quicken for them.

Animefunkmaster
2009-11-11, 09:15 AM
While Craven is very good, I don't feel it much a necessity than improved initiative is to a Wizard. If you can't think of something to take, why not take it?

katans
2009-11-11, 09:18 AM
Adaptive Style benefits any martial adept, as Aethernox said. Other suggestions:

Monk: Elusive Target or Sun School

Paladin: Sword of the Arcane Order or Battle Blessing

Ranger: Swift Hunter

Sorcerer (or any spontaneous arcane caster): Arcane Disciple

Faleldir
2009-11-11, 09:18 AM
Every Bard needs Melodic Casting.

Tyndmyr
2009-11-11, 09:19 AM
DMM has to be coupled with Persist. Seperately, they are not must-haves. Only together are they really powerful.

Factotum: Font of Inspiration is a must-have though. Probably multiple times.

I've built multiple wizards without quicken. It's really, really nice, but a wizard without it is still quite powerful.

ex cathedra
2009-11-11, 09:20 AM
Adaptive Style benefits any martial adept, as Aethernox said.

Indeed, however it specifically fixes the terrible Swordsage recovery mechanic, so it's really quite integral for any character using said mechanic.

Edit:
I do have to agree with Font of Inspiration, however.

Necron
2009-11-11, 09:22 AM
Truenamer - Skill Focus (Truenaming)

Eldariel
2009-11-11, 09:27 AM
Monk: Improved Natural Attack. Not that it helps much.

Sorcerer: Rapid Metamagic, Quicken Spell

Much depends on builds though, which is a problem; a Two-hander Fighter obviously needs Power Attack, but an Archer? Not so much.

Cyclocone
2009-11-11, 09:40 AM
I've built multiple wizards without quicken. It's really, really nice, but a wizard without it is still quite powerful.

Agreed. A wizard without quicken is still perfectly feasible thanks to with swift-action spells like greater mirror image and spell trigger.
If you add quicken, you should add spell penetration too.


However, this all comes down to how you define "must have".

A Druid comes pre-equipped with a flame thrower and a rocket launcher, Natural Spell just lets him dual-wield them.

UglyPanda
2009-11-11, 10:00 AM
I'd only consider Power Attack (For the Barbarian, archer Barbarians are rare), Adaptive Style, and Natural Spell as "Always-take"1 feats in the original post.

Dragonfire Inspiration (And most Bard feats) is a feat for a specific build, not something every Bard takes. DMM may be strong, but it's unnecessary for a Cleric to function well and has been banned outright by quite a few DMs. Also, if you don't build towards it, you can barely use it.

Monks who use weapons don't take Improved Natural Attack. I have no idea what proportion they are among the demographic, however.

I agree that Skill Focus is a must-take2 for Truenamer, which is quite a bit sad.

1 I define "Always-Take" as a feat in which it is very unlikely you'll find a good alternative for, when taken at the lowest level available.
2 Truenamer is a sad class and if you don't take certain feats, you're screwed 90% of the time at higher levels.

jokey665
2009-11-11, 10:01 AM
Darkstalker for Rogues.

Killer Angel
2009-11-11, 10:11 AM
I've built multiple wizards without quicken. It's really, really nice, but a wizard without it is still quite powerful.

And it's usable only on mid-high levels.
For wizard / sorcerers (well, for most casters), I find that "improved initiative" is totally a Must Have. When a spell can determine the course of a fight, going first is the key, starting from level one.

ex cathedra
2009-11-11, 10:13 AM
I guess I should actually contribute, then;

Bard : Melodic Casting
Barbarian : Power Attack
Binder : Improved Binding
Dragonfire Adept : Entangling Exhalation
Druid : Natural Spell
Factotum : Font of Inspiration
Fighter : Power Attack
Monk : Improved Natural Attack, Snap Kick, Superior Unarmed Strike*
Scout : Improved Skirmish
Swordsage : Adaptive Style
Truenamer : Skill Focus (Truespeak), Item Familiar

*If your DM lets it stack with a Monk's Belt. If not, you should just give up because you're playing with someone who thinks that it's imperative to nerf monks.

Tyndmyr
2009-11-11, 10:14 AM
Agreed. A wizard without quicken is still perfectly feasible thanks to with swift-action spells like greater mirror image and spell trigger.
If you add quicken, you should add spell penetration too.


However, this all comes down to how you define "must have".

A Druid comes pre-equipped with a flame thrower and a rocket launcher, Natural Spell just lets him dual-wield them.

Must have...something that would be an improvement for any build in the class. Natural spell qualifies, since I cannot think of anything vaguely equal that the druid could take instead, or a reason why the druid wouldn't want to use it.

Wizard's have a great deal of other useful things like persistant spell...metamagic reducers...improved init. All are quite handy, and they generally have little trouble finding good places to spend their fears. Thus, you can use spell selection to shore up weak areas. I tend to use orbs instead of bothering with spell penetration, for example.

Truenamer...yeah, Skill Focus:Truenaming is a must.

Optimystik
2009-11-11, 10:15 AM
Cleric - Extra Turning: Turning is not only useful on its own, it powers many of their other abilities.

Sorcerer - Rapid Metamagic, obvious.

Bard - Melodic Casting, also obvious.

All casters - Extend Spell; hour/level buffs last through sleep AND free up spell slots the following day. Skill Focus: Concentration - losing spells sucks.

All epic casters - Improved Spell Capacity.

All Manifesters - Psionic Meditation.

Sliver
2009-11-11, 10:20 AM
Flaw: Chicken Infested for Commoner. :smallbiggrin:

That shouldn't be a flaw, but an Epic Feat!

Optimystik
2009-11-11, 10:21 AM
In general, I'd say "must have" feats seem to be the ones that grant extra actions. Natural Spell is must-have, because it saves the druid from having to waste actions shifting in and out to cast spells. Rapid Metamagic is a must-have, because it gives sorcerers back their move action when applying metamagic even if they don't take Quicken. Melodic casting allows bards to sing and cast, saving actions. Action economy is life in D&D.

Extend Spell, saves buffs from having to be recast as often. Skill focus: Concentration - spellcasting actions are not wasted due to enemy action. Etc.

ErrantX
2009-11-11, 10:21 AM
Barbarian- Power Attack, Cleave, Improved Sunder, Combat Brute
Bard- Dragonfire Inspiration, Song of the Heart, Snowflake Wardance, Melodic Casting, Scribe Scroll.
Cleric- Metamagic feats are decent, but really, you either need Zen Archery or Power Attack depending on what kind of 'Zilla you're gonna be. Cloistered Clerics need Knowledge Devotion because, well, duh. Scribe Scroll, Craft Wand.
Druid- Natural Spell. After that? Really its up to you because you've already spammed the win button. You get a fighter as a class feature for cryin' out loud. Otherwise, Scribe Scroll, Craft Wand.
Fighter- Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Focus/Specialization tree, tactical feats, really it's a matter of finding a schtick with this class and wishing you had talents that were on par with tier 3 and up. Dungeoncrasher variant FTW.
Monk- Ascetic Psion or Tashalatora then GTFO and into Psion and/or Psychic Warrior. SERIOUSLY.
Paladin- Mounted Combat, Ride-By-Attack, Spirited Charge, Power Attack, Divine feats, Battle Blessing so your spells aren't completely worthless, Sword of the Arcane Order (if your DM allows it) with Mystic Fire Knight ACF's. Scribe Scroll and Craft Wand aren't terrible choices if you want to take a more passive healer role (not wise, but doable)
Ranger- Ranged combat feats, really. If you're gonna melee, Power Attack and Favored Power Attack are pretty awesome. Swift Hunter is amazing as well, so things like Spring Attack and Shot on the Run are important.
Rogue- Deadly Precision, Improved Feint, really anything Sneak Attack related to make it hit harder and hit more often
Sorcerer- Rapid Metamagic, metamagic feats like Empower, Heighten, and Twin, Draconic heritage feats are fun depending on your flavor of sorc
Wizard- Craft Wand, Metamagic feats, Obtain Familiar so you can trade out normal in class one for a better class feature, QUICKEN.

Crusader- Power Attack, Cleave, Sudden Recovery, Stone Power, Adaptive Style, Scribe Martial Script (so you can bring more to bear at once of your own choosing)
Swordsage- Adaptive Style, Sudden Recovery, Superior Unarmed Strike, Snap Kick
Warblade- Power Attack, Cleave, Adaptive Style
Psion- Metapsionics, Psicrystal Affinity and related feats, Psionic Meditation, Expanded Knowledge, Item Creation feats.
Psychic Warrior- Psionic feats based on your fighting style, Power Attack, Multiattack, Expanded Knowledge, Psionic Meditation, Psionic Body (I like it)
Soulknife- Play a psychic warrior, they do it better.
Wilder- Expanded Knowledge, Postpone Enervation, Psionic Meditation, Metapsionics.

My 2 cents,
-X

Kobold-Bard
2009-11-11, 10:31 AM
Rapid Casting for Sorcerer. Stops them from having metamagic feats take a whole round. Basically unsucks Quicken for them.

Extremely true.

IIRC the Healer isn't allowed to hurt people, so Vow of Peace would be pretty good there. Perhaps not must-have, but if you're not hurting people anyway...

Every Paladin etc. I've had has had Extra Smiting, though can't say if it's a must-have either.

I'm going to stop now, I'm being a bit vague.

ken-do-nim
2009-11-11, 10:36 AM
This is a great thread - can I ask a favor? Can you please put the book each of these feats comes from when you mention them? Thanks.

Kris Strife
2009-11-11, 10:38 AM
Anything for Warmage?

Uin
2009-11-11, 10:39 AM
Darkstalker for Rogues.This.

Including Beguilers, Swordsages, Scouts and anything that wants to seriously hide from a Dragon.

Optimystik
2009-11-11, 10:40 AM
This is a great thread - can I ask a favor? Can you please put the book each of these feats comes from when you mention them? Thanks.

3.5 Feat Index (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/feats), Ctrl-F to your heart's content.

Trouvere
2009-11-11, 10:49 AM
Monk - Leadership :smallsigh:

Tyndmyr
2009-11-11, 10:51 AM
Technically, leadership is pure awesomesauce for everyone, if allowed. It's benefit is higher than almost every other feat for nearly every class.

Zeta Kai
2009-11-11, 11:28 AM
I find that I physically cannot make a character without Improved Initiative. I mainly play Rogues & casters, but even when I don't, I still find that I have to take II by 6th level at the latest. I once tried to avoid it, for flavor reasons, but I gave in at 12th. I'm weak. :smallredface:

Trouvere
2009-11-11, 11:40 AM
Technically, leadership is pure awesomesauce for everyone, if allowed. It's benefit is higher than almost every other feat for nearly every class.Of course. The joke, such as it is, is that there's no other way for the Monk to pull his weight.

Zaq
2009-11-11, 11:48 AM
Dread Necromancer: Tomb-Tainted Soul (exception: Necropolitans)
Incarnate: Expanded Soulmeld Capacity
Totemist: Double Chakra (Totem)
Dragonfire Adept: Entangling Exhalation
Paladin: Battle Blessing
Scout: Improved Skirmish

mregecko
2009-11-11, 12:13 PM
ANY front-liner at all: Elusive Target

I'm sorry, but if you're in the front line, you don't want to be taking Power Attack damage. Period.

Wizard / Sorcerer: Mobile Spellcasting

This feat is so completely broken, and most people never even notice it. Even if you don't agree with the double move + cast interpretation and go with the single move + cast interpretation... Peeking out from your Prismatic Sphere then going back in is too good to not love this feat. I never build a wizard or sorcerer without it.

-- Gecko

Dimers
2009-11-11, 12:25 PM
Almost any warlock build makes good use of Ability Focus (from MM).


Monk - Leadership :smallsigh:

And Skill Focus (UMD), of course. :smallamused:

Eldariel
2009-11-11, 12:27 PM
Wizard / Sorcerer: Mobile Spellcasting

This feat is so completely broken, and most people never even notice it. Even if you don't agree with the double move + cast interpretation and go with the single move + cast interpretation... Peeking out from your Prismatic Sphere then going back in is too good to not love this feat. I never build a wizard or sorcerer without it.

Ever heard of Flyby Attack? Same feat, except even more open in what actions you can take. Need to drink a Potion? No problem. Dismiss a spell? Sure. It's like Mobile Spellcasting, except without any restrictions (except that you gotta be flying...but let's be honest, there's little reason not to at least hover few feet above the ground even in dungeons).

Draz74
2009-11-11, 12:58 PM
Crusader -> Extra Granted Maneuver
Paladin -> Battle Blessing

Saint GoH
2009-11-11, 01:02 PM
I find that I physically cannot make a character without Improved Initiative. I mainly play Rogues & casters, but even when I don't, I still find that I have to take II by 6th level at the latest. I once tried to avoid it, for flavor reasons, but I gave in at 12th. I'm weak.

I'm much the same. Everyone of my characters takes a feat called Combat Intuition from the Complete Guide to the Drow (A somewhat illegitimate book so I always check first). It grants +2 AC and +2 Initiative.

jiriku
2009-11-11, 01:21 PM
Crusader: Extra Granted Maneuver
Paladin: Battle Blessing
Sorcerer: Rapid Metamagic