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thefinalbattle
2009-11-11, 09:16 AM
(warning: rant ahead) so i was checking out demogorgon's stat block, when i noticed something: the damage. his all-powerful, ultimate attack "dual aspects of demogorgon" does a max of FIFTY damage. I'm not very familiar with high level characters (actually... i don't know anything at all about characters above level 3), but i think you would have, like, 50 times that much hp. also, he's wussier than orcus (who has touch of death to obliterate him in one hit). anyone else feel this way?

Starbuck_II
2009-11-11, 09:26 AM
(warning: rant ahead) so i was checking out demogorgon's stat block, when i noticed something: the damage. his all-powerful, ultimate attack "dual aspects of demogorgon" does a max of FIFTY damage. I'm not very familiar with high level characters (actually... i don't know anything at all about characters above level 3), but i think you would have, like, 50 times that much hp. also, he's wussier than orcus (who has touch of death to obliterate him in one hit). anyone else feel this way?

Dude, you don't get a Con mod to hps in 4th edition. That means you aren't likely to get more than 170 at level 20.
Fighters get +6/level after 1st so with 24 Con (likely much higher) = around 157 at level 20.

So no, 50 x that amount.
But yes, the damage dealt is only 1/3rd of a defenders health at level 20.

Asbestos
2009-11-11, 09:31 AM
Actually he's a bit superior to Orcus. Orcus was built using a now-outmoded monster building formula where Solos are really just sacks of HP. While Demogorgon may seem weaker, IIRC he has better defenses (over a year later I still catch myself writing 'saves') and is less hampered by the action economy deficit that plagues most solos (especially MM1 solos) Orcus' death touch is sort of his only threatening ability and in a few Orcus killing builds directly leads to his demise.

Mando Knight
2009-11-11, 09:44 AM
Compared to Tiamat (5 moves/round) and Vecna (aura of death-making)? Yes, everyone is a wuss except for Bahamut.

bosssmiley
2009-11-11, 09:46 AM
(warning: rant ahead) so i was checking out demogorgon's stat block, when i noticed something: the damage. his all-powerful, ultimate attack "dual aspects of demogorgon" does a max of FIFTY damage. I'm not very familiar with high level characters (actually... i don't know anything at all about characters above level 3), but i think you would have, like, 50 times that much hp. also, he's wussier than orcus (who has touch of death to obliterate him in one hit). anyone else feel this way?

Gone are the days (1-3E) when Demogorgon could drive you insane, dominate you, or kill you outright with nothing more than a Paddingtonian hard stare.

D&D Padded Sumo Edition strikes again.

Tiki Snakes
2009-11-11, 10:49 AM
Eh. If you think that a level appropriate encounter with Demogorgon is too easy, you are simply sending too high level PC's at him. *shrug*

Simply put, the whole point of being the right level to face the guy is that it means you stand a fair chance. If that doesn't fit your mental image of a fight with demogorgon, throw them at the big monkey earlier.

Mystic Muse
2009-11-11, 10:58 AM
in terms of crazy baboons Rafiki is better than Demogorgon.

and does Bahamut have stats now? or are you just saying he's not a wuss because he's currently your avatar?

Mando Knight
2009-11-11, 10:59 AM
Eh. If you think that a level appropriate encounter with Demogorgon is too easy, you are simply sending too high level PC's at him. *shrug*

Simply put, the whole point of being the right level to face the guy is that it means you stand a fair chance. If that doesn't fit your mental image of a fight with demogorgon, throw them at the big monkey earlier.

Exactly. A level 30 party isn't the kind to be fazed by Demogorgon: they're the kind of people who are nearly gods themselves and get written down in the annals of history to be disbelieved by people even a hundred years later because their deeds are too outrageous. They're Beowulf, Kamina, and Gandalf, not Scooby Doo and the gang.

If you want your party to be left a gibbering mess after seeing Demogorgon, send him after the party before they hit Epic.

and does Bahamut have stats now? or are you just saying he's not a wuss because he's currently your avatar?
He appears in the Draconomicon 2. One of the previews was of his humanoid form (the Old Man with the Canaries), which is a level 36 Solo with Leader capabilities. Tiamat and Vecna are level 35 Solos.

Mystic Muse
2009-11-11, 11:03 AM
..........there's a Draconinomicon 2?

thefinalbattle
2009-11-11, 11:04 AM
one's going out.

nightwyrm
2009-11-11, 11:07 AM
Demogorgon is a controller. Did you guys miss his powers to daze, dominate and knock you unconscious? Or the ability to daze anyone who starts their turn within 10 squares of him.

Kaiyanwang
2009-11-11, 11:09 AM
Eh. If you think that a level appropriate encounter with Demogorgon is too easy, you are simply sending too high level PC's at him. *shrug*


:eek: But..but.. he's the prince of demons! Are there rules to advance him, like the ones in FCI (and II)?

Mystic Muse
2009-11-11, 11:12 AM
@^
There are rules in the DMG to make your own monsters so you could make your own version of him.

jmbrown
2009-11-11, 11:15 AM
:eek: But..but.. he's the prince of demons! Are there rules to advance him, like the ones in FCI (and II)?

The DMG has rules for advancing monsters. It basically involves giving them more Hp, better defenses, and higher attack values. You can safely increase monsters about 5 levels before they lose their *oomph*

Besides, if you think Demogorgon is too easy then pair him with some minions or maybe an elite. Just because they're called "solo" creatures doesn't mean they have to be fought alone.

Mordokai
2009-11-11, 11:16 AM
Honestly? From what I've seen, he looks pretty darn impressive. But then, I have not seen anything above level 10, so I can't really say what he looks like in practice.

All I'll say is that the picture of him in MM2 almost had me laughting with hysteria. This has been kinda the case in 3.5, but 4E has pushed it a tad further. I mean, we're talking about fraggin prince of demons and here we have a two headed monkey? Seriously? You expect me to take a two headed monkey seriously? Yeah... try again.

HMS Invincible
2009-11-11, 11:19 AM
:eek: But..but.. he's the prince of demons! Are there rules to advance him, like the ones in FCI (and II)?

pg 174 dmg. Boosting a monster’s level is easy. Just increase its
attack rolls, defenses, and AC by 1 for every level you
add. For every two levels, increase the damage it deals
with its attacks by 1. The monster also gains extra hit
points at each level, based on its role (see the “Monster
Statistics by Role” table on page 184).
Decreasing a monster’s level works like increasing
it, but in reverse. For each level down, reduce the
creature’s attack rolls, defenses, and AC by 1 and drop
its hit points based on its role. For every two levels, also
reduce its damage by 1.
This process works best for adjusting a monster’s
level up to five higher or lower. Beyond that, the monster
changes so much that you’d do better to start with
another creature of the desired role and level range.

And, don't forget to give him magical items.

Tiki Snakes
2009-11-11, 11:23 AM
:eek: But..but.. he's the prince of demons! Are there rules to advance him, like the ones in FCI (and II)?

There are standard rules for advancing ANY monster. It's simple. But if you have already become as powerful as the prince of demons, then the prince of demons isn't going to melt your brain merely by looking at you. He got there too late.

Now, if he rocks up at your 'we've hit level 26!' office party, there's going to be trouble.

So, anyway, just looked the fellow up on the compendium. Really, he's NOT some huge wuss that I can see. Level 34 and the amount of horrible conditions he can chuck out, oh god.

I mean, his recharging 'dual aspects of demogorgon' power deals loads of damage, sure....and knocks unconcious (save ends) anyone who it hits within 10 squares. And only targets enemies, so his minions and cultists can be happily in place already to begin the coup-de-graceing.

Add in that as a minor action on each of his 2 turns per round his individual heads are doing cool stuff too. Aemul dazes (and damages), but if they are already dazed, he dominates. Hethradiah does damage, but also makes a pc use an at-will of demogorgon's choice against a target of demogorgon's choice.

Note, both gaze attacks above are close blast 5 attacks, not even just single target.
Oh, and his 'little' attacks? Tentacle blast is a close blast 5 that dishes out ongoing damage....and if the target is already taking ongoing damage, it increases it by 5. It basically stacks with itself.

Remember he has 2 turns just to himself.

And if you're worried about him being kited, well, a ranged 50 attack that teleports the target to within his favourite close-blast range seems like it works pretty nicely.


OH, one last thing; The minor action gaze attacks? Are named for each head, but there's nothing stopping him using both every round instead of having a little walk.

And I nearly missed the bit where any enemy starting it's turn within 10 squares is targeted with a free daze attack. :)

Seems pretty Imposing to me, frankly.

jmbrown
2009-11-11, 11:23 AM
Honestly? From what I've seen, he looks pretty darn impressive. But then, I have not seen anything above level 10, so I can't really say what he looks like in practice.

All I'll say is that the picture of him in MM2 almost had me laughting with hysteria. This has been kinda the case in 3.5, but 4E has pushed it a tad further. I mean, we're talking about fraggin prince of demons and here we have a two headed monkey? Seriously? You expect me to take a two headed monkey seriously? Yeah... try again.

I guess one can't distract you with "Look behind you, a three-headed monkey!" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monkey_Island_%28series%29)

Mando Knight
2009-11-11, 11:24 AM
..........there's a Draconinomicon 2?
Next Tuesday there will be. Until then, it's a bunch of books in a "Do not stock until November 17" box.

:eek: But..but.. he's the prince of demons! Are there rules to advance him, like the ones in FCI (and II)?
And the characters that have a chance to beat him are the kind that sit at gods' right hands, and assault the darkest pits of the Abyss for a workout. The Fighter isn't Joe Schmoe and his +1 Sword, he's closer to Herakles or a shounen hero in the later parts of a manga series.

Kaiyanwang
2009-11-11, 11:26 AM
ThankS for the replies. FCI had suggestion, too, to increase the spell-likes and add vicious attack to the princes.

Are there edition equivalent suggestions?

Mando Knight
2009-11-11, 11:33 AM
ThankS for the replies. FCI had suggestion, too, to increase the spell-likes and add vicious attack to the princes.

Are there edition equivalent suggestions?

It's an idea to swap in some class powers for Demogorgon to use on a limited basis, most likely from the Chaos Sorcerer or Warlock power sets. (As if you applied a template, but only gave him the powers instead of the HP and defense boosts, etc.) I've never tried this out in practice, but considering how many powers high-level solos have anyway, I'd say it's probably not too much so long as you don't give him a 7d10+modifiers burst attack as an at-will...

Draconomicon 1 says that a DM can treat all Dragons as if they had the Ritual Caster feat, so it's not much of a stretch to apply that to Demon Princes or Archdevils... which will allow them to prepare their lairs with devastating tricks before the adventurers get there...

Kaiyanwang
2009-11-11, 11:37 AM
It's an idea to swap in some class powers for Demogorgon to use on a limited basis, most likely from the Chaos Sorcerer or Warlock power sets.

Something like the (Sp) swapping table in FCII. I see.

Mystic Muse
2009-11-11, 11:44 AM
I guess one can't distract you with "Look behind you, a three-headed monkey!" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monkey_Island_%28series%29)

nope. because see this is a two headed monkey.

you want awesome in your campaign? put in Rafiki.

The Glyphstone
2009-11-11, 01:17 PM
So if Demogorgon's a Controller and Bahamut's a Leader....who's the Defender and the Striker?

Adventuring party of the GODS!

Mando Knight
2009-11-11, 02:59 PM
So if Demogorgon's a Controller and Bahamut's a Leader....who's the Defender and the Striker?

Adventuring party of the GODS!

Vecna's a Controller, but hates anyone who isn't undead. I'm pretty sure Bahamut's a Soldier (Leader), and Tiamat is a flat-out Brute with 5 Standard and Minor actions per round and a ridiculously massive Close Burst 30 recharging attack power that slows and causes a large amount of nearly irresistible ongoing damage. And that's not including her Close Blast 5 at-will that blinds (save ends) or her at-will Domination gaze... (in short, she's a ridiculously massively overpowered monster that will kill you five ways in a single turn. Fortunately, you won't see your best friend gut you like a pig.)

Gametime
2009-11-11, 05:21 PM
Vecna's a Controller, but hates anyone who isn't undead. I'm pretty sure Bahamut's a Soldier (Leader), and Tiamat is a flat-out Brute with 5 Standard and Minor actions per round and a ridiculously massive Close Burst 30 recharging attack power that slows and causes a large amount of nearly irresistible ongoing damage. And that's not including her Close Blast 5 at-will that blinds (save ends) or her at-will Domination gaze... (in short, she's a ridiculously massively overpowered monster that will kill you five ways in a single turn. Fortunately, you won't see your best friend gut you like a pig.)

On the other hand, her fixed initiative means that a sufficiently-determined munchkin can (and has!) build a character with literally no chance of failing to kill her before she takes a single move except rolling a natural 1.

One thing to keep in mind, with regard to the topic, is that Demogorgon in previous editions was only killable by the most powerful epic characters. That's still true in Fourth...but being the most powerful epic character is built into the core rules instead of being bundled into a second-rate, poorly-balanced splatbook. The expectations have changed, which is why Demogorgon looks more approachable than he used to.

Kurald Galain
2009-11-11, 06:43 PM
If you want your party to be left a gibbering mess after seeing Demogorgon, send him after the party before they hit Epic.

Then they'll be a gibbering mess (save ends) :smalltongue:

Mando Knight
2009-11-11, 06:48 PM
Then they'll be a gibbering mess (save ends) :smalltongue:

Gibbering Mess:
You take a -15 penalty to saving throws.
You are dominated by the creature that inflicted the condition.
You cannot speak, except in random syllables that mean nothing.

Save to end that. :smallamused:

Volkov
2009-11-11, 06:51 PM
Demogorgon has been on a long painful road to wusshood ever since his heydey in 1e. After that peak of power, he sort of declined as the editions went by.

Tiki Snakes
2009-11-11, 07:18 PM
Vecna's a Controller, but hates anyone who isn't undead. I'm pretty sure Bahamut's a Soldier (Leader), and Tiamat is a flat-out Brute...

Yeah, as they are actually more 'band of monster's you're actually looking for an artillery and a lurker, if you want all bases covered, rather than striker etc. :)

Actually, with two controlling types (Vecna and Demogorgon), Bahamut running soldierly defence (with some leading on the side) and Tiamat and her many turns running the brutish damage, you've got a pretty intimidating super-epic team already. :)

Not to mention bahamut may or may not come with half a dozen level 30 or so gold dragons free, as part of his stat-block.

Volkov
2009-11-11, 07:28 PM
vecna's not just a controller, he's the controller. Pretty much, ever since his debut in 1st edition or so, pretty much everything has become a plot of his. Heck, in the final modules of 2e, his meddling as a greater god changed the multiverse to 3e.

Nightson
2009-11-11, 07:34 PM
A wuss? Demogorgon is an beast. Yes level 30 characters can probably take him down, but if they couldn't what would even be the point of giving him stats?

But let's look over his capabilities.

He gets two standards, each of the gaze attacks and two move actions for every turn.

He tries to daze you at the start of every turn. Unless you're someone who can engage him from more then ten squares away, you aren't getting away from it.

Standard Action: His recharge power deals 30 average damage and knocks unconscious. Quite possibly to every character. Then you have Demogorgon or his allies enjoy their coup de grace attacks against the PCs.

Standard Action: Forked Tail. Damage and weakened (save ends) in blast 5. Weakened is a strong condition, far more so on the PCs then on the monsters.

Standard Action: Tentacle Blast. This is the big damage dealers. Damage and ongoing 15 damage to everything in close blast 5. And if he hits with it repeatedly it increases by 5 each time.

Standard Action: Inescapable Grasp. Obviously not a big damage move, but if the party engages at a long range, or if someone is engaging from outside his daze aura, Demogorgon can grab them and plop them down in the middle of some enemies or right in the middle of a close blast 5 coming up.

Aameul's Gaze. Damage and dazed. If already dazed, the target is dominated. Nice. Until you factor in his free daze attack against every player within ten squares. The is a close blast 5 which will rob many PCs of their turns.

Hethradiah's Gaze. Damage and the target makes and at-will attack against a target of Demogorgon's choice. A high level strikers damage is meant to kill big baddies who have six or seven times as much health as the PCs. This attack is damaging.


He gets all that. Not one option per turn. Both gaze actions during a turn (one on each initiative count), two standard action attacks, and the mobility of having two teleport ten movements each turn. And he's got Resist 30 variable.

Demogorgon is a beast.

Mando Knight
2009-11-11, 09:52 PM
Not to mention bahamut may or may not come with half a dozen level 30 or so gold dragons free, as part of his stat-block.

Recommended encounter for Tiamat: Tiamat plus an Ancient Red dragon, and a pair of Dragonborn Champions. A couple of high-level soldiers for minions and the second-strongest monster in the MM1, as a suggested encounter. If you're not burning all your dailies on the encounter, you're going to end up with everyone dead.

Fortunately for the idiot stupid enough to attack Bahamut, the Old Man with the Canaries seems to summon custom gold dragons that are "only" standard monsters. Problem is, he's got 7 of them, and at-will no-surge healing powers. And that's his humanoid form. We've got to wait a bit before finding out what his true form looks like.

Just remember: Bahamut and Tiamat together tore one of the most powerful Primordials to pieces. Alone. And they hate each other.

Mystic Muse
2009-11-11, 10:40 PM
If Bahamut's as powerful as you say WHY hasn't he killed all the evil gods single handedly yet?

Mando Knight
2009-11-11, 10:44 PM
If Bahamut's as powerful as you say WHY hasn't he killed all the evil gods single handedly yet?

Because Bahamut has honor duels with Tiamat, but neither seems to ever get the upper hand for some reason.

Furthermore, a one level advantage isn't enough for Bahamut to smite Tiamat and Vecna and Asmodeus and Gruumsh, etc. by himself and always come out on top. That's what adventurers are for: they're foolhardy enough to fight gods, and maybe will kill a couple for him eventually. :smalltongue:

Arbitrarity
2009-11-11, 10:48 PM
Gibbering Mess:
You take a -15 penalty to saving throws.
You are dominated by the creature that inflicted the condition.
You cannot speak, except in random syllables that mean nothing.

Save to end that. :smallamused:

Get a cleric with... argh, forgot the power. Saves automatically against all conditions on everyone in close burst 3. Purify?

Mystic Muse
2009-11-11, 11:03 PM
Gibbering Mess:
You take a -15 penalty to saving throws.
You are dominated by the creature that inflicted the condition.
You cannot speak, except in random syllables that mean nothing.

Save to end that. :smallamused:

unless 20 is an automatic save or you use a saving power there's no physical way to beat that.

FoE
2009-11-11, 11:16 PM
If Bahamut's as powerful as you say WHY hasn't he killed all the evil gods single handedly yet?

1) The gods aren't solely physical beings. It isn't simply a matter of one god appearing in the other's realm and them fighting it out. Mortals themselves need to go through a very procedure just to force a god into taking physical form and trying to kick his/her/its ass.

2) All gods command vast forces, and if one god declares total war on the other, a lot of innocents are going to die in the crossfire. As of now, their conflict is waged in the mortal world through minor skirmishes.

3) The evil gods cheat. They cheat like hell. You can bet if Tiamat and Bahamut agreed to fight each other on neutral ground without bringing any dragons along, Tiamat would show up with an army of hired devil mercenaries.

"DID I SAY NO PURPLE DEVILS? DID I?"

Vic_Sage
2009-11-11, 11:38 PM
If Bahamut's as powerful as you say WHY hasn't he killed all the evil gods single handedly yet?
Tsundere for each other and the rivalry is all one big show so no one finds out about there love.

chiasaur11
2009-11-11, 11:42 PM
Tsundere for each other and the rivalry is all one big show so no one finds out about their love.

Character concept: Cleric of both Tiamat and Bahamut whose goal in life is "To get those two crazy kids to realize how much they dig each other."

FoE
2009-11-11, 11:45 PM
Character concept: Cleric of both Tiamat and Bahamut whose goal in life is "To get those two crazy kids to realize how much they dig each other."

You ... you know they're brother and sister, right? Two halves of the same dragon.

Ewwwwww. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0079.html)

chiasaur11
2009-11-11, 11:58 PM
You ... you know they're brother and sister, right? Two halves of the same dragon.

Ewwwwww. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0079.html)

This is probably a big part of why said cleric dies horribly seconds after mentioning said goal.

Mando Knight
2009-11-12, 12:20 AM
You ... you know they're brother and sister, right? Two halves of the same dragon.

Ewwwwww. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0079.html)

It's not incest when she's literally your other half, it's narcissism (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ScrewYourself)! You know Bahamut totally has a Batman/Catwoman (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DatingCatwoman) thing going on with at least one of her five heads... :smallamused::smalltongue:

This is the part where the perverted-sex god comes in and whispers into Bahamut's ear "Search your feelings. You know it to be true."

FoE
2009-11-12, 12:24 AM
It's not incest when she's literally your other half, it's narcissism (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ScrewYourself)!

That image at the top of the page hurts my soul.

Gametime
2009-11-12, 12:26 AM
This thread makes me think we need a corollary to Godwin's Law, specific to D&D threads, regarding the relationship between time and the probability of divine incest being raised as a topic.

Aron Times
2009-11-12, 12:31 AM
Here's Demogorgon's stat block...

http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee136/Joseph_Silver/Demogorgon.jpg

That's pretty scary. He's a difficult challenge for a party of level 30 characters. Imagine pitting him against a party of level 20 characters. :smalleek:

Inyssius Tor
2009-11-12, 12:32 AM
It's not incest when she's literally your other half, it's narcissism (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ScrewYourself)! You know Bahamut totally has a Batman/Catwoman (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DatingCatwoman) thing going on with at least one of her five heads... :smallamused::smalltongue:

This is the part where the perverted-sex god comes in and whispers into Bahamut's ear "Search your feelings. You know it to be true."

Just one? Ha! Look: Tiamat, quintupled action economy and all, has five consorts. Bahamut, all by himself? Seven. Do the math! You think a fifth of Tiamat would be enough for the Platinum Dragon? Not a chance.

Also, man has this thread gone to weird places in a hurry.

FoE
2009-11-12, 12:35 AM
Ah, but even if he's got a big harem, Bahamut's just one dragon. With five heads, you just know Tiamat's into some freaky group action.

OK, that's enough discussion of dragon sex.

chiasaur11
2009-11-12, 12:40 AM
Most awkward sitcom family ever, all I'm saying.

Asbestos
2009-11-12, 01:07 AM
That image at the top of the page hurts my soul.

I clicked just to see what you were talking about... I regret my decision.

hamishspence
2009-11-12, 05:36 AM
There aren't clerics, but there are Invokers who revere both Tiamat and Bahamut.

Hmm.

Kaiyanwang
2009-11-12, 06:46 AM
Here's Demogorgon's stat block...

http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee136/Joseph_Silver/Demogorgon.jpg

That's pretty scary. He's a difficult challenge for a party of level 30 characters. Imagine pitting him against a party of level 20 characters. :smalleek:



I noticed a strange thing... no knowledge skills?

Tiki Snakes
2009-11-12, 10:01 AM
I noticed a strange thing... no knowledge skills?

Straight Int-Check of +27 there, cheif. The big monkey has an intelligence (somehow) of 30. Think he's fine, knowledge-wise.

Mr. Mud
2009-11-12, 10:07 AM
*strokes imaginary beard thoughtfully*.

Anyone else picturing Orcus and DemoGorogon vs. Tiamat and Bahamut? Sort of in a tag team wrestling type deal..?

No, just me? I think it's time for bed, then... :smallbiggrin:

hamishspence
2009-11-12, 10:13 AM
Or even a Savage Tide style team up, with Orcus as your ally and Demogorgon and his buddies as your enemies.

Mr. Mud
2009-11-12, 10:16 AM
Or even a Savage Tide style team up, with Orcus as your ally and Demogorgon and his buddies as your enemies.

We real need to start a thread like that. Like the 20 Fight vs. Tarry the Tarrasque.

Interest, anyone?

Mordokai
2009-11-12, 11:17 AM
Or even a Savage Tide style team up, with Orcus as your ally and Demogorgon and his buddies as your enemies.

Demogorgon didn't have much buddies in Savage Tide... hell, his own duplicates betrayed him if you acted properly :smallbiggrin:

Oslecamo
2009-11-12, 11:31 AM
I always defended that 4e monsters would make for a lovely wargame.

Sipex
2009-11-12, 11:38 AM
I don't see the issue, to anyone who's not expecting to fight Orcus, Demogorgon, Vecna, Tiamat or any other god (which would be most parties unless you give away this stuff at the beginning of a campaign) these encounters would be challenging, make the PCs sweat...probably kill a few. You're also going with the assumption that nobody is metagaming either.

Of course these things start to get easy if you prepare specific builds for them. That's like saying 'I knew I was going to fight sephiroth at the end of Final Fantasy 7 and just how difficult he was so I got knights of the round and levelled up to 99, he was way too easy'

FoE
2009-11-12, 12:27 PM
I noticed a strange thing... no knowledge skills?

4E monsters don't need no knowledge skills in their stat blocks.

Gametime
2009-11-12, 12:53 PM
I don't see the issue, to anyone who's not expecting to fight Orcus, Demogorgon, Vecna, Tiamat or any other god (which would be most parties unless you give away this stuff at the beginning of a campaign) these encounters would be challenging, make the PCs sweat...probably kill a few. You're also going with the assumption that nobody is metagaming either.

Of course these things start to get easy if you prepare specific builds for them. That's like saying 'I knew I was going to fight sephiroth at the end of Final Fantasy 7 and just how difficult he was so I got knights of the round and levelled up to 99, he was way too easy'

To be fair, Knights of the Round was a good idea for any boss in that game. What a ridiculous summon.

Leolo
2009-11-12, 02:24 PM
If you look at his suggested teammates (2 Balor Brutes) being unconscious does not look desirable to me.

The Balors may alone do enough damage to kill helpless foes.

But such fights are won or lost regarding on the right preparation so it is still a fair fight for a epic level party if they are not surprised.

AslanCross
2009-11-12, 05:13 PM
Honestly? From what I've seen, he looks pretty darn impressive. But then, I have not seen anything above level 10, so I can't really say what he looks like in practice.

All I'll say is that the picture of him in MM2 almost had me laughting with hysteria. This has been kinda the case in 3.5, but 4E has pushed it a tad further. I mean, we're talking about fraggin prince of demons and here we have a two headed monkey? Seriously? You expect me to take a two headed monkey seriously? Yeah... try again.

Hasn't he always been a two-headed monkey? I remember seeing an old AD&D book that had him and Orcus on the same page.

EDIT:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_lpL870wV2A4/RdSapuFkSvI/AAAAAAAAAiE/sqLniW3owAg/s400/demogorgon.gif

He has baboon heads here. I remember seeing one where he was more of a two-headed gorilla with arms, but I can't remember which book for the life of me.

Final EDIT:
This seems to be Demogorgon's original artwork from Eldritch Wizardry.
http://waxbanks.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83451be5069e2011570398e64970b-pi

Mordokai
2009-11-12, 05:31 PM
I started playing DnD with 3.5 and what little I knew from Baldur's Gate 2: SoA and yes, he was already a two headed ape there.

Doesn't make it any less lame. And before anybody says it, no, I can't come up with anything better. But I'm also not getting paid for this.

FoE
2009-11-12, 05:32 PM
Hasn't he always been a two-headed monkey? I remember seeing an old AD&D book that had him and Orcus on the same page.

I own the first MM and Demogorgon has indeed always been a humanoid with two baboon heads and tentacles. WotC can't really be blamed for not changing him, as that would have upset a lot of grognards.

Though I'll admit that his depiction on the cover of MM2 is a bit less impressive than this picture.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/alumni_Demogorgon_fc1.jpg

Xenogears
2009-11-12, 05:36 PM
Demogorgon's heads dont look very monkeyish in the BoVD IIRC.

FoE
2009-11-12, 05:38 PM
@^: According to Wikipedia, that was an error.


In the 3E sourcebook Book of Vile Darkness, he is erroneously depicted as having hyena heads instead of mandrill heads.

He does actually look fairly impressive in the "Interview with Demogorgon" video, even if he's wearing Borat's bikini in one shot and his leg gets humped by a badger.

Mordokai
2009-11-12, 05:39 PM
Demogorgon's heads dont look very monkeyish in the BoVD IIRC.

Not very monkeyish?

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/alumni_Demogorgon_3rd.jpg

He looks... something :smalltongue: And while FoE is correct, this one still has me weeping tears of laughter and dissapointment at the same time.

Gamerlord
2009-11-12, 05:40 PM
It's not incest when she's literally your other half, it's narcissism (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ScrewYourself)! You know Bahamut totally h

Curse you.


This is the one forum where a discussion on demon lords turns into a discussion on dragon-on-dragon action.

FoE
2009-11-12, 05:43 PM
He looks... something :smalltongue: And while FoE is correct, this one still has me weeping tears of laughter and dissapointment at the same time.

Compared to that, the cover of the MM2 is fantastic.

AslanCross
2009-11-12, 05:44 PM
Demogorgon was depicted with hyena heads in BoVD, but yeah, that's a mistake. The point still stands that his original pre 3.x depictions are also quite monkeyish. It's not exclusive to 3.x onwards.

Gamerlord
2009-11-12, 05:46 PM
Monkey?

"I SHALL DEVOUR YOUR SOULS AND THEN EAT A BANANA!!!"


Doesn't seem very demonish, and form of poo does he throw at you :smalleek: ?

AslanCross
2009-11-12, 05:47 PM
Monkey?

"I SHALL DEVOUR YOUR SOULS AND THEN EAT A BANANA!!!"


Doesn't seem very demonish, and form of poo does he throw at you :smalleek: ?

It sounds perfectly Chaotic Evil to me. :smallbiggrin: And from his 4E statblock, psychic poo.

Mando Knight
2009-11-12, 06:04 PM
psychic poo.

Now that's demonic. :smalltongue:

Vic_Sage
2009-11-12, 06:34 PM
You ... you know they're brother and sister, right? Two halves of the same dragon.

Ewwwwww. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0079.html)
And that is why I ship them.

nightwyrm
2009-11-12, 06:47 PM
And that is why I ship them.

Does Tiamat's 5 heads have different personalities? She can be an entire unwanted harem for Bahamut.

jmbrown
2009-11-12, 06:56 PM
I noticed a strange thing... no knowledge skills?

In case you don't know, 4E considers you either trained or un-trained. The only difference is +5. The reason you add half your level to your skill is because it reflects what you pick up in your adventures (something I never cared for with 3E's skill system; you can fight dragons all you want but religiously following RAW you can't ever identify a creature, regardless of type, unless you have the knowledge).

With a base 15 + his intelligence, Demogorgon can pretty much identify whatever the heck he wants.

Gametime
2009-11-12, 07:16 PM
In case you don't know, 4E considers you either trained or un-trained. The only difference is +5. The reason you add half your level to your skill is because it reflects what you pick up in your adventures (something I never cared for with 3E's skill system; you can fight dragons all you want but religiously following RAW you can't ever identify a creature, regardless of type, unless you have the knowledge).

With a base 15 + his intelligence, Demogorgon can pretty much identify whatever the heck he wants.

Hm...this makes me wonder, does simple knowledge of what a creature IS depend on a knowledge check? Obviously knowledge can tell you what it is, but do you specifically need it? Because if not, hilarity ensues!

Mando Knight
2009-11-12, 07:19 PM
And that is why I ship them.
After all, some philosophies hold that a married couple is basically a pair of people who are metaphorically each other's other half...

In case you don't know, 4E considers you either trained or un-trained. The only difference is +5.Besides that, there aren't any RAW in-combat applications for Arcana, Religion, or Nature, but there are some for Perception, Insight, Athletics, and Stealth. The statblock just covers what you need to know about fighting the monster. If it contained everything about the monster, you'd have at least a thirty-page document on the details of the monster's ecology and social contacts...

jmbrown
2009-11-12, 07:25 PM
Besides that, there aren't any RAW in-combat applications for Arcana, Religion, or Nature, but there are some for Perception, Insight, Athletics, and Stealth. The statblock just covers what you need to know about fighting the monster. If it contained everything about the monster, you'd have at least a thirty-page document on the details of the monster's ecology and social contacts...

I liked the ecology and habitat :(

Best part of AD&D 2E's monster manual is how every creature gets its own page including how they live, the society they create, how you'd ecounter them in their home turf, and any other pertinent information like how much money you'd get for skinning them or stealing their eggs. Yeah, a good DM can fill in all that stuff himself but I love fluff.

Mando Knight
2009-11-12, 07:28 PM
Best part of AD&D 2E's monster manual is how every creature gets its own page including how they live, the society they create, how you'd ecounter them in their home turf, and any other pertinent information like how much money you'd get for skinning them or stealing their eggs. Yeah, a good DM can fill in all that stuff himself but I love fluff.

WotC's doing the in-depth part of that with more splatbooks, so they can spend more than just a page on each monster...

RebelRogue
2009-11-12, 08:11 PM
I own the first MM and Demogorgon has indeed always been a humanoid with two baboon heads and tentacles. WotC can't really be blamed for not changing him, as that would have upset a lot of grognards.
Back in the day (The Immortal set) "he" was actually a she! I'm not sure how siginificant this is when it comes to demon lords, but that's the greatest change (s)he has ever undergone.

(Perhaps V is Demogorgon?!?!?? :smalleek:)

Mando Knight
2009-11-12, 08:17 PM
Back in the day (The Immortal set) "he" was actually a she! I'm not sure how siginificant this is when it comes to demon lords, but that's the greatest change (s)he has ever undergone.

(Perhaps V is Demogorgon?!?!?? :smalleek:)

It's an immortal chaotic evil being. It can be whatever gender it wants to be.

RebelRogue
2009-11-12, 08:24 PM
It's an immortal chaotic evil being. It can be whatever gender it wants to be.
Sure, and I tried to imply that too. However, many demon lords do have specific genders associated with them. Malcanthet is female, Grazz't male, Pale Night is a mother figure etc. So gender does seem to hold some meaning, at least for some demons, even if it's only how they're perceived by mortals (game designers included). So it is an interesting change, I think.

FoE
2009-11-12, 08:31 PM
And some of them have no identifiable gender at all, like Juiblex.

Mando Knight
2009-11-12, 08:32 PM
Sure, and I tried to imply that too. However, many demon lords do have specific genders associated with them. Malcanthet is female, Grazz't male, Pale Night is a mother figure etc. So gender does seem to hold some meaning, at least for some demons, even if it's only how they're perceived by mortals (game designers included). So it is an interesting change, I think.

Eh. Maybe one of Demogorgon's heads is male, & the other is female, and the gender given to the demon as a whole is based on which one is doing more at the time. :smalltongue:

Volkov
2009-11-12, 08:55 PM
If Bahamut's as powerful as you say WHY hasn't he killed all the evil gods single handedly yet?

Because vecna has thirty different plans, plot devices, and xanatos gambits to beat him and take his powers.

AshDesert
2009-11-12, 08:56 PM
Eh. Maybe one of Demogorgon's heads is male, & the other is female, and the gender given to the demon as a whole is based on which one is doing more at the time. :smalltongue:

So... wouldn't that always be female then? Women itp, please don't kill me!

Anyways, I don't quite see how a discussion on a certain demon-lord being a wuss because of his low damage output became dragon god-on-dragon god incest/narcissism:smallconfused:.

Volkov
2009-11-12, 09:11 PM
So... wouldn't that always be female then? Women itp, please don't kill me!

Anyways, I don't quite see how a discussion on a certain demon-lord being a wuss because of his low damage output became dragon god-on-dragon god incest/narcissism:smallconfused:.

The human mind works in ways you are better off not knowing.

Kaiyanwang
2009-11-13, 05:48 AM
In case you don't know, 4E considers you either trained or un-trained. The only difference is +5. The reason you add half your level to your skill is because it reflects what you pick up in your adventures (something I never cared for with 3E's skill system; you can fight dragons all you want but religiously following RAW you can't ever identify a creature, regardless of type, unless you have the knowledge).

With a base 15 + his intelligence, Demogorgon can pretty much identify whatever the heck he wants.

Thank you for the clarification. Simply, I was expecting the prince(ess?) of demon to be more educated :smallwink:

Starbuck_II
2009-11-13, 07:00 AM
And some of them have no identifiable gender at all, like Juiblex.

Untrue, in some art in 2E she was female. Temple of Elemental Evil anyone?
She was hot from waist up, but her lower region...all fungi.

Mordokai
2009-11-13, 08:03 AM
You're sure you're not refering to Zuggtmoy (http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x247/soundandfuryandpeace/ZuggtmoyFiendishAspectsCodex.jpg)? As far as I'm concerned, Juiblex was always pretty genderless.

But then, you're speaking of 2E, of which I've never played anything tabletop, so my knowledge may be lacking here.

AslanCross
2009-11-13, 08:55 AM
Untrue, in some art in 2E she was female. Temple of Elemental Evil anyone?
She was hot from waist up, but her lower region...all fungi.

That would be Zuggtmoy, who worked with Juiblex if I'm not mistaken. Juiblex is just a big ball of snot.

FoE
2009-11-13, 09:03 AM
As these other gentlemen have pointed out, you are thinking of Zuggtmoy.

Juiblex is the Lord of Oozes and "it" looks the part, as his body is a pile of good with eyes and mouths.

Starbuck_II
2009-11-13, 09:07 AM
That would be Zuggtmoy, who worked with Juiblex if I'm not mistaken. Juiblex is just a big ball of snot.

Right my mistake, but oozes are in the Fungi kingdom so seems weird that they seperated them.

hamishspence
2009-11-13, 09:14 AM
oozes don't really fit with anything, except maybe overgrown amoebae.

Zuggtmoy and Jubilex are rivals for the same layer. They hate each other.

nightwyrm
2009-11-13, 09:59 AM
Right my mistake, but oozes are in the Fungi kingdom so seems weird that they seperated them.

Not in D&Dland, where everything is it's own type.

Tiki Snakes
2009-11-13, 11:30 AM
It's an immortal chaotic evil being. It can be whatever gender it wants to be.

I find the idea of a female Demogorgon to be intruiging, so I scratched around. The Wiki claims hemaphrodite, but the idea that one head is male and the other female does seem to be the case.

Which I find impossibly endearing, somehow. :smallsmile:

Sipex
2009-11-13, 11:53 AM
I'll remember this discussion if any of my players take the time away from a battle where they're going "OMG IT STUNNED ME AGAIN" to ask if it's female.

I say this because it will happen and probably because the wizard will want to hit on it.

Gamerlord
2009-11-13, 12:54 PM
I say this because it will happen and probably because the wizard will want to hit on it.

Hit on the friggin PRINCE/PRINCESS OF ALL DEMONS?

Mando Knight
2009-11-13, 01:01 PM
I find the idea of a female Demogorgon to be intruiging, so I scratched around. The Wiki claims hemaphrodite, but the idea that one head is male and the other female does seem to be the case.

Which I find impossibly endearing, somehow. :smallsmile:

Given its fighting (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CombatTentacles) style (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TentacleRope), it's also apparently into tentacles (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NaughtyTentacles). Perhaps on both ends.

Mystic Muse
2009-11-13, 01:03 PM
Hit on the friggin PRINCE/PRINCESS OF ALL DEMONS?

one of my players wanted to hit on Tiamat's red head. he was level 1 and this is 4th edition.

Gamerlord
2009-11-13, 01:06 PM
one of my players wanted to hit on Tiamat's red head. he was level 1 and this is 4th edition.

.....

He's a moron.

Mystic Muse
2009-11-13, 01:06 PM
keep in mind he's never played D&D before. Also he usually does stuff just because it's funny.

Gamerlord
2009-11-13, 01:07 PM
keep in mind he's never played D&D before. Also he usually does stuff just because it's funny.

I see, well no other player suffered from this right?

Mystic Muse
2009-11-13, 01:08 PM
he never actually talked to her. I talked him out of it because it would have ended the campaign due to the TPK. a few of the other players helped me.

Gamerlord
2009-11-13, 01:11 PM
That is good, nothing says "Ouch" like 5 heads breathing doom on you and biting your head off.

Mystic Muse
2009-11-13, 01:12 PM
That is good, nothing says "Ouch" like 5 heads breathing doom on you and biting your head off.

This is true.

Mando Knight
2009-11-13, 01:41 PM
I talked him out of it because it would have ended the campaign due to the TPK.

Yeah... her presence is too deadly for a level 1 character to withstand. She could TPK them literally in her sleep. 'Course, if you're less than level 21, you can't hurt her at all anyway, even on a nat-20 attack roll...

Sipex
2009-11-13, 02:32 PM
Our party wizard tends to resort to unconventional tactics when the battle starts getting tough, so it would be in the interest of possibly confusing it for a round.