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Shademan
2009-11-11, 10:50 AM
I have had this idea for a long time, about a fighter (using the term generally. any pure melee class, really.) that is supposed to be able to use any weapon any time. A normal fighter(as in the base class) usually have to specialice and stuff. how would I go about making a efficent character that can change weapon without penalties?

Kaiyanwang
2009-11-11, 11:04 AM
If you are reffering to change weapon on the fly, try out weapon categoies and choose to specialize in a versatile group like swords or flails&chains.

Build your fighter veeery carefully trying to get the max from any prereq feat.

(silly example: three mountains and charge feat tier have a lot in common).

Warblades have a class feature that allow to "rearrange" your weapon feats, given time.

Darrin
2009-11-11, 11:09 AM
I have had this idea for a long time, about a fighter (using the term generally. any pure melee class, really.) that is supposed to be able to use any weapon any time. A normal fighter(as in the base class) usually have to specialice and stuff. how would I go about making a efficent character that can change weapon without penalties?

I'm trying really, really hard not to make a snarky comment about Warblades (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2)... ack, too late.

If ToB isn't your thing, then take a good look at Person_Man's Haberdash the Masked (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88633) build. Oodles of fun, there.

Kaiyanwang
2009-11-11, 11:18 AM
I'm trying really, really hard not to make a snarky comment about Warblades (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2)... ack, too late.


Funny thing is, I'm not, generally speaking, the biggest fan of ToB. But.. the thing of changing weapon screams warblade.

Nevertheless, one could just buld a fighter toward different maneuvers (human fighter 2 flaws: 7 feats for charge, 7 for CR, 5 for CE, 2 for fun like imperious command and throw anything ) and switch to the right weapon in the right situation.. High crit multiplier of crit chanche for charge, reach for control (there are a lot: ramhammer to bullrush, glaive to triP) and make a good use of thrown, bow and towershield. it depends from the player attitude and the powerlevel of the campaign.

If you can, you could even buy a weapon able to change. Maybe by a quest.

ericgrau
2009-11-11, 11:28 AM
Even if you pulled it off you'd have the problem where it's better to have only one good magic weapon. You can delay that need by boosting your ability scores and getting other great combat items like boots of speed, but by around level 10 or so it'll still be an issue.

Shademan
2009-11-11, 11:31 AM
the whole idea is that the character don't believe in personal skill and thinks the guy with the best weapon will always win, therefore he want to ba able to use all weapons. Incase the group find a +3 pointy stick which is better than his +2 beaver.

thanks for the help, lotsa useful things here

Rhiannon87
2009-11-11, 11:40 AM
If you can, you could even buy a weapon able to change. Maybe by a quest.

There's a weapon enhancement called Morphing. +2 bonus, you can change your weapon into any melee weapon as a move action. I don't recall what book it's in ATM-- I'm thinking FR Underdark? But it seems like that would be a really good thing to aim for. That way you don't need to constantly be trading out weapons and cutting into the party's haul, you can have every melee weapon in one.

Kaiyanwang
2009-11-11, 11:41 AM
There's a weapon enhancement called Morphing.

Was thinking to THAT. Eccellente. Updated in MIC, IIRC; this could save some money..

ericgrau
2009-11-11, 11:52 AM
the whole idea is that the character don't believe in personal skill and thinks the guy with the best weapon will always win, therefore he want to ba able to use all weapons. Incase the group find a +3 pointy stick which is better than his +2 beaver.

thanks for the help, lotsa useful things here

Even then it'll be better to sell the +2 weapon afterwards. Or more likely your DM won't be able to keep this up without breaking standard treasure limits by a large margin so that soon your own weapon that you've been upgrading is much better than anything you might find. I like the idea of a morphing weapon, but a +2 equivalent is a bit expensive early on. How about you switch to whatever you find early on like you said then later you get a single weapon with morphing?

Rhiannon87
2009-11-11, 12:12 PM
Even then it'll be better to sell the +2 weapon afterwards. Or more likely your DM won't be able to keep this up without breaking standard treasure limits by a large margin so that soon your own weapon that you've been upgrading is much better than anything you might find. I like the idea of a morphing weapon, but a +2 equivalent is a bit expensive early on. How about you switch to whatever you find early on like you said then later you get a single weapon with morphing?

That's what I'd probably do in this situation-- switch things around until you can afford that enchantment. Then get metaling (another +2 bonus that allows you to change the weapon of the metal as a move action) and sizing (+1 bonus, change the weapon's size).

Our party got one of those as loot for killing the BBEG of an arc. +2 Morphing Metaling Sizing Weapon of AWESOME. "Oh no, we're fighting demons, and none of us have cold iron weapons because the cost of enchantments makes it really not worth it!" "Hang on a round-- okay, I'm gonna switch out my normal scimitar for this +2 cold iron one. Let's kick ass." "Yaaaay!"

Nero24200
2009-11-11, 12:40 PM
Shamless plug alert *coughs* lookatmysig *coughs*

Though in all seriousness, if you're looking for a versitile warrior, a fighter wouldn't be your best bet. The class is very WYSIWYG (What-you-see-is-what-you-get), so unless you can find feats which let you transfer weapon bonuses or some such, the class just won't be a viable option, since feats are the only thing it really gets.

If you found a decent homebrewed version, the soul-knife could be an idea, since with the right feats you'll find you can shape your soul-knife to suit your needs (or even just homebrew the feats, I doubt a DM is going to argue if you're willing to spend a feat to deal bludgeoning damage with a soulknife). The class is pretty underpowering though, so you'll need a good homebrew version or make changes yourself to bring it up a notch.

Kaiyanwang
2009-11-11, 12:49 PM
since feats are the only thing it really gets.


A matter of tastes, I guess - i like the fighter just for THAT. you have just to choose very carefully your feats.

Nevertheless, the OP asked for a melee combatant, not necessarily a straight fighter. So multiclass, homebrew.. it's all his choice.

Shademan
2009-11-11, 12:55 PM
whatever works :smallamused:

Thurbane
2009-11-11, 08:31 PM
I would suggest 1 level of Master of Masks (it has some skill reqs that will be steep for a fighter) - one of the masks makes you proficient in all exotic weapons. Then grab yourself a Metalline Morphing Aptitude weapon. :smallsmile:

Maybe Human Paragon 3/Fighter 2/MoM 1/Fighter X...

(Nab yourself Use Magic Device as a permanent class skill with the Paragon class, then grab a Wand or Eternal Wand of Heroics).

ericgrau
2009-11-11, 08:56 PM
That's what I'd probably do in this situation-- switch things around until you can afford that enchantment. Then get metaling (another +2 bonus that allows you to change the weapon of the metal as a move action) and sizing (+1 bonus, change the weapon's size).

Our party got one of those as loot for killing the BBEG of an arc. +2 Morphing Metaling Sizing Weapon of AWESOME. "Oh no, we're fighting demons, and none of us have cold iron weapons because the cost of enchantments makes it really not worth it!" "Hang on a round-- okay, I'm gonna switch out my normal scimitar for this +2 cold iron one. Let's kick ass." "Yaaaay!"
Cool weapon to find, but to buy it costs 98,000gp; or 72,000 gp without sizing (what is that for anyway?). You could fill your golf bag with a +2 weapon of each type for less gold. Btw, don't get a silver weapon when you can simply apply silversheen. IMO pick one metal type, and if you fight an enemy with a different type simply pile on the bonus damage and make due. It's not like it happens every day.

Chrono22
2009-11-11, 09:02 PM
Being able to switch from mounted combat to other strategies could help... so, a flying mount, maybe use a lance (or two, if you're a ranger).
Being a warblade would let you switch exotic weapon proficiencies based on the combat. I'm pretty sure there's an enchantment that lets you morph a magic weapon into other forms. If not, make up a magic material that can...

Getting a minion would help alot too. You can concentrate on more general feats and tactics, while relying on him for more specialized ones.

So, to reiterate... get teammates. Keep many strategies at your disposal. To be a versatile fighter, you need to be a versatile player.

Claudius Maximus
2009-11-11, 09:11 PM
Just a note: Morphing was changed to a +1 ability in the MIC.

Starbuck_II
2009-11-11, 09:13 PM
I second Haberdash build. It grants all martial/exotic weapons. You can therefore use any weapon.
You need Disguise so you need a rogue, bard, etc level.

Thurbane
2009-11-11, 09:32 PM
You need Disguise so you need a rogue, bard, etc level.
Or Human Paragon (I never miss a chance to pimp Paragon levels!) :smalltongue:

elliott20
2009-11-11, 10:00 PM
how are we defining "versatile"? Is the criteria of success dependent upon how well he can handle different situations, fulfill different roles, or just his ability to pull out a different weapon of the weak? While the whole "morphing metal sizing" thing sounds incredibly awesome, to me it strikes me as something that is a little too focused on the minor details.

I mean, beyond the "metal" portion of the enhancement, how much of a help do the different weapons really give you that makes it worth while? I guess what I'm wondering is, would it be more beneficial to focus role/tactical versatility over just weapons? Because let's face it, even if you pimp out one weapon related skills, and dip warblade for the weapon aptitude, you're still looking what is essentially one particular set of skills.

Fluffles
2009-11-11, 10:18 PM
It's easy! You drop your PHB, and go open up your ToB to page 21 :smallbiggrin:

elliott20
2009-11-12, 01:22 AM
But that's my point. Is being a warblade really the MOST versatile?

We all know that one of the short comings of the ToB material is that fundamentally there is no way for the ToB people to overcome range issues. (Except by the same way any other melee person would, through magical items that gives them flight)

when we think of warriors we generally think of the following:

shooter
trip monkey
ubercharger
TWF
I'm sure I'm missing some other ones, so help me out here guys.

when it comes down to it we're basically looking at, damage, range, and control.

by those criteria, a warblade out of the box can fulfill at least damage and control at a decent level, but can't quite do range without some help. Perhaps a warblade multi-classes over to fighter or vice versa would do better?

Shademan
2009-11-12, 03:12 AM
how are we defining "versatile"? Is the criteria of success dependent upon how well he can handle different situations, fulfill different roles, or just his ability to pull out a different weapon of the weak? While the whole "morphing metal sizing" thing sounds incredibly awesome, to me it strikes me as something that is a little too focused on the minor details.

I mean, beyond the "metal" portion of the enhancement, how much of a help do the different weapons really give you that makes it worth while? I guess what I'm wondering is, would it be more beneficial to focus role/tactical versatility over just weapons? Because let's face it, even if you pimp out one weapon related skills, and dip warblade for the weapon aptitude, you're still looking what is essentially one particular set of skills.

mostly it is for fluff reasons, as the fighter don't believe in personal skill but rather "the guy with the best weapon wins". Therefore I want him to be able to use as many weapons as possible, so when the group find a +2 spiked codpiece he can use it and use the +1 rolling pin he allready have as a secondary.

I was thinking of first giving him a level of rogue for skills, then some fighter and master of masks. thats gladiator mask sounds veeeery interesting

elliott20
2009-11-12, 03:15 AM
if that's the case, warblade level 1 class feature battle aptitude with and exotic weapon proficiency feat is all you need for this.

Shademan
2009-11-12, 03:19 AM
what does battle aptidue do?

elliott20
2009-11-12, 03:31 AM
allows you to shift all of your feat benefits to another weapon after you spend an hour in meditation.

this is why exotic weapon proficiency is a warblade's best friend because it means that with a bit of meditation (or if you want to call it "studying", you can) you can have your weapon focus and all those other feats instantly switch over to another weapon. doing things this way though means that your original feat selection needs to work with the weapon in question anyway. i.e. if you have a bunch of range feats like point blank shot, it won't do crap when you try to do this with say, a flail.

edit: my bad, it's actually called WEAPON aptitude, not battle aptitude.

Shademan
2009-11-12, 03:40 AM
well, master of masks gives me the gladiator mask which makes me orificient with ALL exotic weapons. then again, I need like five levels of base classes to get skill rank 8

elliott20
2009-11-12, 03:43 AM
well, I'm not familiar with master of masks, so I'm not sure what the trade offs are. But with warblade, it's a one level dip. Much faster, but instead of being proficient with all, it's proficient with all with the caveat that you have to spend sometime meditating on it. Meaning, you can only be effectively proficient with ONE exotic weapon at any given time, but you have the option to proficient with all of them over the course of the game.

Rixx
2009-11-12, 04:42 AM
Pathfinder fighters sort of become this already with Weapon Training: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/basic-classes/fighter

Kaiyanwang
2009-11-12, 06:55 AM
Pathfinder fighters sort of become this already with Weapon Training: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/basic-classes/fighter

I like how they developed this, but you need anyway "improved somethig" feats to accomplish better maneuver. An maybe accord the Equipment to them (Example: Improved trip is good for a glaive, but for a glot, too - ranged tripping weapon in Frostburn).

Assuming you drop Haberdash*, Could we work on a fighter X / Warblade Y / Master of Mask 1, OP?

*take a look could be what you want

Nero24200
2009-11-12, 07:29 AM
Pathfinder fighters sort of become this already with Weapon Training: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/basic-classes/fighter

Sorry, but this kinda comes across as the opposite of what the OP is looking for. The weapon training aspect of that class only really encourages using one type of weapon rather than switching out when needed.

Shademan
2009-11-12, 11:04 AM
Assuming you drop Haberdash*, Could we work on a fighter X / Warblade Y / Master of Mask 1, OP?

*take a look could be what you want

haberdash seems abit to spellcasty for me. I wan't a (more or less) pure warrior. master of mask is forgiven in this area.
so yeah, fighter/warblade/master of masks sounds good.

Kaiyanwang
2009-11-12, 11:22 AM
OK.. let us know books allowed, if you want to focus on combat maneuvers, what weight ranged fighting should have, and the like.

Post the prereqs of MoM: this coul help us to help you to fullfill them.

Shademan
2009-11-12, 11:48 AM
Actually. I don't know 'em.

Let us just assume that all 3.5, non-setting spesific books (such as faeurn and stuff) is allowed

FinalJustice
2009-11-12, 12:16 PM
If you don't mind tapping into the cheesy side of the force, may I suggest an use-activated item of Heroics (SpC)? Maybe in the weapon, if it fits the concept better. The idea is, with an standard action, you can 'call' any Fighter feat for 30 minutes. If your DM rule (sensibly) that multiple casts of Heroics don't stack, being two bonuses from the same source, it's not that broken. Basically, a fighter-only floating feat you can change with a standard action. A little broken, indeed, but it fits the concept.

(I've used it. A lot. It's very fun. And it gets better with ToB.)