I know why Belkar's laughing about being dangled

[Emo Samurai]

It's because by dangling him in front of the worm simply for convenience, they're becoming (marginally) more evil and less ethical. Same thing with his asking the villagers to point out the least popular (and most kill-worthy) person around, he wants others to become more evil a little bit at a time. His new schtick is that of influence rather than direct evil. It's part his whole "subtletly" thing.

[Dark Faun]

Good point. He was very happy with Haley's murder of Crystal after all (though in this case he didn't actually cause it in any way).

[Optimystik]

Not to mention covering for Darth Vaarsuvius.

He should have thought this one through a bit though - by consenting voluntarily to the plan, he's removing any moral liability from the party.

[Silverraptor]

Not to mention covering for Darth Vaarsuvius.

He should have thought this one through a bit though - by consenting voluntarily to the plan, he's removing any moral liability from the party.

Darn it. You beat me to the point again Optimystik.:smallannoyed: Anyways, what you said is what I was thinking.

[hamishspence]

Depending on your view, consenting to being mistreated, doesn't really make the mistreaters less guilty.

[Emo Samurai]

They're still thoughtlessly doing something unethical. Just because he says it's okay doesn't mean they aren't endangering him.

[Thanatosia]

I think there's a difference between Consenting to something and just deciding not to vigorously oppose it. I think Belkar clearly falls into the latter catagory in regaurds to his view on being dangled. He's accepting the fact that his companions are gonna dangle him and realizes there's no point in continuing to fight it, he's not willingly embracing or volunteering for the act.

[hamishspence]

Possibly:

"Ok, dangle away"

is a bit more lukewarm than

"Dangle me! Dangle me!"

would be.

[The Dark Fiddler]

No, he's laughing because the blood is rushing to his head. :smalltongue:

He's just not to the point of insanity he was at when the hanging failed yet.

[Optimystik]

Depending on your view, consenting to being mistreated, doesn't really make the mistreaters less guilty.

By that logic: I go to the hospital to donate my kidney, the doctor that removes it should be locked up.

The Order is obligated to take every precaution that he won't be harmed, but the mere act of dangling him in the first place loses its stigma due to his consent.

[BatRobin]

No, he's laughing because the blood is rushing to his head. :smalltongue:

He's just not to the point of insanity he was at when the hanging failed yet.

He's upright...

[Jagos]

They might be talking about the spice.

[Hadessniper]

By that logic: I go to the hospital to donate my kidney, the doctor that removes it should be locked up.

The Order is obligated to take every precaution that he won't be harmed, but the mere act of dangling him in the first place loses its stigma due to his consent.He is under the influence of an unknown, possibly mind affecting drug. His party is aware of this, any consent given is extremely suspect.

[hamishspence]

By that logic: I go to the hospital to donate my kidney, the doctor that removes it should be locked up.

The Order is obligated to take every precaution that he won't be harmed, but the mere act of dangling him in the first place loses its stigma due to his consent.

Not necessarily.

There are things that are "reasonable" and things that aren't. Durkon "consents" to being sent on suicide missions in Origin of PCs- that doesn't mean its right for his party to treat him that way, by doing this.

[The Dark Fiddler]

He's upright...

That's the best part. :smalltongue:

[BatRobin]

That's the best part. :smalltongue:
...


Touche.

[Brendan]

They now owe him a favor of some sort, at least in Belkar's mind. This is reason enough for him, and perhaps he likes the idea of being what the collosal beast is controlled by. Power over the huge. Maybe he likes the idea of being wanted, even if it is just to be eaten by a purple worm. Ha! well, he is fine with being hated.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

I think an important point is being missed here. The halfling is chaotic evil and the dangler is lawful good-ish. Belkar knows he's reasonably safe and both his remark, and the event itself, amuse him. He has already shown himself to have sociopathic tendencies, so him not really caring so long as he's amused is completely in character.

[Smexidecimal]

Also, Belkar allowing this sort of action now could make it easier for the rest of the Order to be coaxed into doing something similar or a little bit worse in the future.

This isn't to say that Belkar will actually convince them to do something outright evil in the story, as he'll be dead before anything like that could occur, just that consenting to being dangled would assist with the alleged "subtly get them to be evil" schtick.

[Callista]

It's not like Belkar is a coward, and he's not stupid, either. He does, however, have a real habit of doing things just because they're exciting.

Remember the halfling we saw jumping over a city wall into an army of hobgoblins? Yeah. Same halfling.

He probably figures that if he gets eaten, he'll just cut his way out of the thing's stomach, which will be even cooler.

I wonder what the stats for a sandworm are?

[Theodoriph]

Depending on your view, consenting to being mistreated, doesn't really make the mistreaters less guilty.

Allowing BDSM shows otherwise :P

Besides, he's not consenting to being mistreated. He's volunteering to heroically bait the worm so they can cross the desert. It's not like he's actually being harmed.

[hamishspence]

"safe", and "sane" are important words used in that context, and apply here.

Being dangled in front of a worm's mouth, is far from "safe" - one little mistake and Belkar is is serious danger.

[Mugen Nightgale]

"Is the order dangling Belkar morally justified?"

Yes kids, that's where we are headed with this discussion. Why don't we agree that this is all for the sake of humor and avoid starting another moral argue?

[hamishspence]

yes- and I do think they have good reasons for what they are doing.

Which is sort of the point- they need good reasons for what they are doing.

I wonder how people would be reacting if it was Durkon or Elan being dangled, after having taken spice?

Possibly the same.

It's still funny though.

[Optimystik]

He is under the influence of an unknown, possibly mind affecting drug. His party is aware of this, any consent given is extremely suspect.

His behavior seems pretty normal to me (for Belkar, anyway.)


Not necessarily.

There are things that are "reasonable" and things that aren't. Durkon "consents" to being sent on suicide missions in Origin of PCs- that doesn't mean its right for his party to treat him that way, by doing this.

Durkon was suicidal at the time; Belkar is not.


"Is the order dangling Belkar morally
justified?"

Yes kids, that's where we are headed with this discussion. Why don't we agree that this is all for the sake of humor and avoid starting another moral argue?

There are no rules against moral debates on the forum. It's the specific use of that copycat phrasing to kick one off that sets Roland's teeth on edge.


I wonder how people would be reacting if it was Durkon or Elan being dangled, after having taken spice?

If they consented to it and appreciated the risks - the same.
If they seemed worried (much more likely) - morally suspect.

[Edwin]

I would say that, while yes, the consent of Belkar makes the act itself less morally suspect, the fact that they, or in this case Roy, thinks that it is a reasonable solution to the problem is still a major problem given his alignment.

He didn't ask Belkar in advance, mind you.

[Yendor]

Isn't it obvious? Belkar's counting on being dropped. Then someone will suggest raising him, and they'll all laugh so hard they'll fall off the worm, hopefully killing one or more of them.

[Larkspur]

It also means that the next time it's convenient to use some party member as bait, they have less grounds to object to their own mistreatment because they cheerfully went along with Belkar's (and Chaotic Evil Belkar was willing to risk his safety for the sake of the party, so how could a Good party member justify being less self-sacrificing?)

Basically he's splashing around the deep end of the alignment pool saying "Come on in, the water's fine!"

[warmachine]

I say Belkar is high from the spice. He is an extremely selfish person and he would not normally risk even an inconvenience without some kind of compensation. Riding the worm saves walking but he knows the others will want that benefit as well, so he has a bit of leverage. He could claim he doesn't like the risk that he'll be swallowed and refuse till someone bribes him but he doesn't.

Belkar should have laid off the spice.

[Callista]

I think it's part of the "Belkar's a thrill-seeker who thinks this is all great fun, has done reckless things in the past, and is slightly bonkers thanks to the spice" thing.

Let's see... I already mentioned the "jumping over the wall into hobgoblin army" thing. There's also the "bait a paladin several levels higher than you who's defeated your party twice, actually hoping she WILL kill you" escapade. And anyone who repeatedly plays practical jokes on wizards who can tell the laws of physics to sit down and shut up has got to be a little reckless.

Nah, this is just Belkar par for the course. With his Evil side suppressed for the time being, Belkar's chaotic inner thrill-seeker comes out to play.

[HenryHankovitch]

I guess I shouldn't be surprised at the level of moral goofballery flying around.

Observation 1: Belkar is (voluntarily) a member of an adventuring party. This is an inherently dangerous profession, and puts him in the position of being asked/expected to do dangerous things for the good of the group. (Even if Belkar himself has a different rationalization for his actions.) Being dangled as worm-bait is not, in this universe, different in nature from being asked to scout ahead in a trap- and monster-laden dungeon, or to attack an army of hobgoblins singlehandedly. Roy using Belkar as worm-bait is not any more evil than anything else he might be expected to do for the party. If Roy allowed Belkar to be eaten as worm bait, that would be evil. Or if he used Belkar as anything-bait without his knowledge, that might be a little bit evil.

Observation 2: The whole reason the worm is there is because Belkar was eating his spice. You can't blame Belkar for this too much, since there's no indication that anyone would have known ahead of time "hey, this spice attracts giant sandworms." Regardless, it was Belkar's actions that put him in danger in the first place, and Roy's and V's actions that protected him from said sandworm.

Observation 3: Belkar isn't a cleric, he has never shown any moral compulsion to try to draw Good-aligned teammates to the "Dark Side." Quite the opposite, he enjoys needling people who have different moral codes than him (which amounts to, anyone with a moral code at all). He might be laughing at the thought of guilt-tripping Roy over this, later; but it's silly to think he's laughing because it's all part of his nefarious plan to seduce the Order to evil.

[Kish]

Observation 2: The whole reason the worm is there is because Belkar was eating his spice. You can't blame Belkar for this too much, since there's no indication that anyone would have known ahead of time "hey, this spice attracts giant sandworms."

Except that it said eating the spice in an open desert could be deadly on the label, if Belkar had bothered to read. And Belkar did both try to make Miko Fall and gloat over getting the cleric of Loki to kill Pete.

Other than that, I agree.

[warrl]

Except that it said eating the spice in an open desert could be deadly on the label, if Belkar had bothered to read. And Belkar did both try to make Miko Fall and gloat over getting the cleric of Loki to kill Pete.

A cleric of Loki killing someone seems to me to be about as abnormal and as much of an alignment break as a cat killing and eating a mouse.

That particular cleric did require some instruction and guidance... but then, mother cats teach their kittens.

[mikeejimbo]

I dunno, I thought he was laughing because he can appreciate the sort of irony of the situation, where he was complaining that someone else was doing something unethical.

[Sewblon]

Not to mention covering for Darth Vaarsuvius.

He should have thought this one through a bit though - by consenting voluntarily to the plan, he's removing any moral liability from the party. Belkar's consent may actually make it more evil. I have had the same thought as the OP, I think the strip may be building up to a "battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster" ending for Belkar.

[Tricksy Hobbits]

Actually, using Belkar as bait is more ethical than not in this situation. If they did not it would take them months to cross the desert while Xykon could teleport strait to the gate. If they have an advantage and do not use it they put the world at greater risk, and it's more ethical to endanger one evil halfling than an entire plane.

[Shadic]

Wow, this is dumb.

Argue all you want about putting a party member at risk, but he's still accepting that it's something that he needs to do at the moment. Sure, it puts him at a significant risk.

But you know who's also at risk? Roy every time he charges into battle, just like the rest of them.

There's nothing evil about this at all. Belkar's probably laughing because he finds this funny.

[derfenrirwolv]

It is the sort of think the adventurers from nodwick might do to the titular henchman.

It is pretty cruel and not exactly lawful good.. not that belkar doesn't have this and worse comming to him, but what would people say to using, say, Haley or Elan or even V in such a fashion?

[Hurkyl]

It strikes me as an unaligned act to me. Roy isn't following a law, establishing society, pushing for personal freedom, rebelling against establishment, protecting the innocent, furthering the good of mankind, bullying the weak, showing a careless disregard for human life, maintaining any sort of balance, or anything else like any of that.

[Hurkyl]

but what would people say to using, say, Haley or Elan or even V in such a fashion?
If it were Roy, Elan or Haley, it would sure still be amusing. Elan would do it just because it's fun, and he'd have some silly comment to go along with it. Roy, Durkon, and Haley would do it because they recognize the need, and it gives them an excuse to be snarky.

Heck, Durkon might even do it without comment.

And if V did it, we would probably get some character development -- another instance of swallowing pride for the greater Good. And if V refused, we would probably get an amusing tantrum, and some introspection afterwards.

[Yuoaman]

An interesting theory, though I still believe that Belkar relishes making his actions conflict with the morals of his teammates.

[Spirited Charge]

A cleric of Loki killing someone seems to me to be about as abnormal and as much of an alignment break as a cat killing and eating a mouse.

That particular cleric did require some instruction and guidance... but then, mother cats teach their kittens.

While this is all good and true, it doesn't change the fact that Belkar advertised the fact afterwords. I mean, the 'teach a man to fish' reference should be ringing a few bells by now.

All in all, I agree that this 'join the dark side' gig could be an actual theme. But on the other hand, he DOES enjoy the poking and proding of LG types. So, one would then asume that this idea is limited to those characters who are already close to the edge. A nudge, rather than a shove, in the 'right' direction...

[multilis]

If paladins can slaughter goblins including babies for the greater good, then surely Good Belkar can pretend to be evil and do heroic sacrifices for the greater good.

Cleric of Loki was being recruited to be a fighter for good, just like those holy goblin killing palidans.

Miko was a good effort that failed, we give Roy some slack for his failures so why not B? Obviously Belkar was using reverse psychology on Miko, things just didn't quite work out right. It was a reasonably good plan for Miko's character type, eg when Sabine tries to recruit Miko, Miko instead is nudged towards good, and when Roy tries direct approach to nudge her towards good, it backfires.

The celestials of course are in on the scheme, they leave Roy in the dark thinking Belkar is evil because Roy is a loose cannon who can't keep a secret. Belkar does his best work as a double agent, pretending to help evil guys while he secretly screws up their plans.

If Belker was truely evil as you believed, he could get much more gold, xp and killing joining X or Nale.

He is laughing because once again he makes a heroic sacrifice (risking his life to speed up their trip to gates to save world), while pretending to be evil and they buy it hook, line and sinker.

[Spirited Charge]

Belkar does his best work as a double agent, pretending to help evil guys while he secretly screws up their plans.

If Belker was truely evil as you believed, he could get much more gold, xp and killing joining X or Nale.

He is laughing because once again he makes a heroic sacrifice (risking his life to speed up their trip to gates to save world), while pretending to be evil and they buy it hook, line and sinker.

Would you mind elaborating? I sincerely don't understand where you're coming from. I mean, he specifically said that he was chaotic evil. No, he shouted it!

[Big Hungry Joe]

It's also possible Belkar is just drunk. Whatever that spice really is, he pounded a lot of it.

[multilis]

Would you mind elaborating? I sincerely don't understand where you're coming from. I mean, he specifically said that he was chaotic evil. No, he shouted it!Of course, he is *pretending* to be chaotic evil, while he really helps the good guys. He is like a police informer who has to go deep undercover into criminal biker gangs once in a while.

Of course the celestials aren't going to blow his cover, he is one of their better secret agents.

(Yet another example: Oracle buddies with an evil black dragon and serving an evil god. Belkar does a bit of secret work, killing oracle for a bit as part of a different celestial subplot to distract 2 evil clerics in the battle for the Ming.)

[Lvl45DM!]

You know its not a bad theory but i think this time hes just thinking itd be awesome
not that hes not a corruptive bastard but just this time i think hes not exactly planning anything

[Spirited Charge]

I'm not so sure. Belkar doesn't really have the intelligence (or wisdom, for that matter) to be a 'secret agent'. And when I said that he shouted it, I was refering to when he was in a coma. How could he be trying to trick people when he was shouting to himself?

[Lvl45DM!]

He was tricking Shojo's spirit in case it wasnt a hallucination :smalltongue:

[Mugen Nightgale]

He is laughing because it's funny. And he knows that if he continued to whine about it they would totally fall for it like it was a big deal when it really isn't. I mean the guy fights monsters in a daily basis putting his life in the hands of his companions. Why would he be offended by being bait?

[bobspldbckwrds]

in all honesty, i think that belkar is just doing whatever amuses him at the moment, and i wouldn't be surprised if the words "mush, you undulating bastard" were said by belkar in the next strip

but this is just my 2 cp

[Larocs Macalar]

Wow, I'll never thought about this way.

[rewinn]

in all honesty, i think that belkar is just doing whatever amuses him at the moment, and i wouldn't be surprised if the words "mush, you undulating bastard" were said by belkar in the next strip

but this is just my 2 cp

"Mush, You Undualting Bastard" made me snort coffee through my nose.

[Spirited Charge]

Of course, he is *pretending* to be chaotic evil, while he really helps the good guys. He is like a police informer who has to go deep undercover into criminal biker gangs once in a while.

Of course the celestials aren't going to blow his cover, he is one of their better secret agents.

(Yet another example: Oracle buddies with an evil black dragon and serving an evil god. Belkar does a bit of secret work, killing oracle for a bit as part of a different celestial subplot to distract 2 evil clerics in the battle for the Ming.)

Blow his cover? Why would the celestials even be involved with Belkar? And if they are, why put him into a predominantly good adventuring group? I think that if the celestials did make him a secret agent, he would rather be put into a group like the Linear Gild, to sabotage the sceams (sp?) of an evil party.