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ranagrande
2009-11-11, 04:20 PM
I was bored, so I decided to try to see how many feats I could fit into a level 20 build. This character is ridiculous and definitely not optimal, but I think it would actually be fun to play. Here's what I have so far:

Cleric 1/Divine Mind 1/Dragonfire Adept 1/Fighter 2/Marshall 1/Monk 2/Psion 1/Psychic Warrior 2/Ranger 2/Rogue(using the Fighter bonus feat variant) 2/Sorcerer(using the Dragonblood substitution level) 1/Samurai 1/Swashbuckler 1/Wizard 1/Wu Jen 1

Things are listed alphabetically for the most part. Rogue should be taken at first level of course.

It has Alertness (granted by the Wizard familiar), Draconic Heritage, Dragontouched, Exotic Weapon Proficiency(bastard sword), Improved Unarmed Strike, Skill Focus(diplomacy), Scribe Scroll, Track, Weapon Finesse, and Wild Talent.

It also has your choice of Combat Reflexes or Deflect Arrows, your choice of Improved Grapple or Stunning Fist, and your choice of Rapid Shot or Two-Weapon Fighting.

For the Cleric domains, pick any two of the Darkness, Drow, Dwarf, Elf, Metal, Planning, Time, Undeath, and/or War domains to get free Blind-Fight, Lightning Reflexes, Great Fortitude, Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus(light hammer or warhammer), Extend Spell, Improved Initiative, Extra Turning and/or Weapon Focus(your deity's favored weapon), respectively.

It also gets four Fighter bonus feats, two bonus fighter or psionic feats, one bonus metamagic feat, and one bonus psionic or metapsionic or psionic item creation feat.

With two flaws and the Human bonus, it also gets 10 additional feats.

A Kobold can have the same number of feats as a Human thanks to the Kobold Fighter 1 substitution level. Kobolds are generally more fun, but it does lose a little versatility that way. A Kobold would exchange the Human bonus feat and one Fighter bonus feat for Dodge and Weapon Focus(any spear).

So that's a total of 33 feats, not counting non-exotic proficiencies. That's not too bad, but I think there's room for improvement. I know Pun-Pun can have every feat that ever existed anywhere, but I'm looking for something a little more playable.

If you were going to play this character, what kind of strategy would you use? If someone else brought this character to a game that you were running or playing, what would your reaction be?

Frosty
2009-11-11, 04:29 PM
Depends. What is the final BAB of this build?

ranagrande
2009-11-11, 04:45 PM
Depends. What is the final BAB of this build?+9 :tongue:

Boci
2009-11-11, 04:57 PM
+9 :tongue:

What about using fragmented BAB progression?

Aklso I believe the feat variant rogue only grants bonus feats when it gets SA, not when the fighter gets them.

jiriku
2009-11-11, 05:04 PM
That is a monstrosity. I would laugh until I fell out of my chair. Nicely done!

Replacing the second level of rogue with Swordsage 1 will get you weapon focus as a bonus feat, preserving your total of 33 feats.

Also, take cloistered cleric instead of regular cleric. You'll gain Knowledge as a bonus domain, which you can trade in for the Knowledge Devotion, for a total of 34 feats.

Pyredup
2009-11-11, 05:07 PM
If you spend your lvl 1 feat on Sacred Vow and your human bonus feat on Vow of Poverty you'll be granted 11 additional bonus Exalted feats by the time you're level 20. (1 at first level then another at every even level beyond 1st).

Frosty
2009-11-11, 06:27 PM
You know, you can then Chaos Shuffle away any useless feats...hmm...

ranagrande
2009-11-11, 06:31 PM
Fractional BAB brings it up to a respectable +15.

Unearthed Arcana just says that the variant Rogue loses sneak attack and gains bonus feats "as fighter" so I still think it could work. Just in case that did end up being a DM call though, we can certainly go with something else instead.

The Swordsage will do nicely. Also, great catch on the Cloistered Cleric!

And yes, I agree. This character definitely needs Vow of Poverty. Unfortunately, that will probably come at the cost of Alertness, as I don't think a VoP character can have a familiar. It also makes the Wizard and Wu Jen levels pretty much useless.

So I would replace one of them with Ranger 3. After that, I think we have exhausted all of the base classes and must move on the prestige classes. There are lots of them to choose from, but for now I will go with the Reaping Mauler for a 2-for-1 deal.

So the changes from the first post: It loses Alertness, Scribe Scroll, the choice of first level Monk bonus feats, two general feats at level one, two Fighter bonus feats, and one metamagic bonus feat.

It gains Clever Wrestling, Endurance, Improved Grapple, Knowledge Devotion, Mobility, Sacred Vow, Stunning Fist, Vow of Poverty, and 11 bonus Exalted Feats.

For a grand total of 45 feats!

What else can we add?

ranagrande
2009-11-11, 06:33 PM
Heh, Chaos Shuffle... that would be hilarious!

Hadrian_Emrys
2009-11-11, 06:39 PM
Chaos shuffle? :smallconfused:

Boci
2009-11-11, 06:41 PM
Chaos shuffle? :smallconfused:

Replace one feat for an abyssal heritor feat, then replace that for a normal feat. Turn the exalted feats into any feat you want. Uses two spells from Fienish Codex 1.


Unfortunately, that will probably come at the cost of Alertness, as I don't think a VoP character can have a familiar. It also makes the Wizard and Wu Jen levels pretty much useless.

You can have a familiar. Its a spell book you cannot have.

Lamech
2009-11-11, 06:46 PM
Umm... I know elf has a bunch of weapon prof feats.

Also there is one location that gets free iron will. Touchstone feats can get you another (not all that useful) feat. (Chaos shuffle breaks it.) You can sell your soul for some. (Remember to kill whomever it was sold too.)

ranagrande
2009-11-11, 06:50 PM
You can have a familiar. Its a spell book you cannot have.Hrm... I wouldn't allow it because summoning a familiar costs 100 gold. I suppose they could always use the XP cost variant though.

Signmaker
2009-11-11, 06:56 PM
extreme multiclassing for feats

For MOAR FEATS FTW, magical locations. Quite a few grant feats.

Kylarra
2009-11-11, 07:03 PM
You can have a familiar. Its a spell book you cannot have.Just trade that and scribe scroll out for Eidetic Spellcaster. :smallbiggrin:

Boci
2009-11-11, 07:10 PM
Hrm... I wouldn't allow it because summoning a familiar costs 100 gold. I suppose they could always use the XP cost variant though.

Or swap familiar for a feat.

Curmudgeon
2009-11-11, 07:12 PM
Worship an Elder Evil (from the book) and get 5 more (Vile) feats by level 20.

golentan
2009-11-11, 07:17 PM
Worship an Elder Evil (from the book) and get 5 more (Vile) feats by level 20.

Then you can't mash in VoP, which gives 11. And I think that alignment based feats need to be dialed up to 11.

DragoonWraith
2009-11-12, 01:52 AM
Swordsage does not give just Weapon Focus. It gives Weapon Focus for each of the weapons of a chosen discipline. For Tiger Claw or Shadow Hand, that's six Weapon Foci.

Milskidasith
2009-11-12, 02:00 AM
Then you can't mash in VoP, which gives 11. And I think that alignment based feats need to be dialed up to 11.

You can be a very poor follower of an evil lord. If you mean the feats are useless, so is everything else in this build; you still get the feats, just no benefit. And while we're worshipping evils, we can chaos shuffle away all the feats, woo! (if you mean that you can't be evil/good and get the feats, chaos shuffle + atonement. A small cost to pay to have 16 feats and keep your alignment).

BobVosh
2009-11-12, 02:09 AM
So currently a 46?

Also why has no one mentioned the locations that grant feats? If we use 20 WBL we can easily buy the various ones. I don't know the actual feats that you can get with it.

Godskook
2009-11-12, 02:14 AM
Does the OP care about the difference between real feats and 'virtual' feats? I.e., Swordsage's weapon focus isn't a true feat, far as I know, and is thus not a valid target for a chaos shuffle.

toddex
2009-11-12, 02:16 AM
What about using fragmented BAB progression?

Aklso I believe the feat variant rogue only grants bonus feats when it gets SA, not when the fighter gets them.


Rogue

The rogue who favors martial training over stealth and cunning can profit if she chooses her fights carefully.
Gain

Bonus feats (as fighter).

What you suggested would be so effing terrible...

Milskidasith
2009-11-12, 02:48 AM
What you suggested would be so effing terrible...

A rogue gains sneak attack every two levels. That's literally one less feat than a fighter 20, and it still works as a (one, not two) level dip build. Either way, it's bad, since fighter bonus feats are just bad in general.

elliott20
2009-11-12, 02:55 AM
dear god... it's too beautiful

DragoonWraith
2009-11-12, 03:15 AM
Does the OP care about the difference between real feats and 'virtual' feats? I.e., Swordsage's weapon focus isn't a true feat, far as I know, and is thus not a valid target for a chaos shuffle.
Ah, I suppose that is true, I just reread it and it says "you gain the benefit of the Weapon Focus feat..." rather than just gaining the feat. Seems like the almost were ready for the Dark Chaos Shuffle!

Coidzor
2009-11-12, 03:31 AM
I just wonder if anyone has ever choreographed it...

Haberdashery
2009-11-12, 03:46 AM
You need a legacy item. That's three more feats right there. Least, Lesser, and Greater Legacy.

Kobold-Bard
2009-11-12, 03:55 AM
This is the greatest thing I've seen here in a long time. I may steal i and make it a BBEG of some sort. Thank you.

Boci
2009-11-12, 11:29 AM
What you suggested would be so effing terrible...

I'm not suggesting it, I was just under the impression thats how it works. I'm all for that rogue variant gaining 11 bonus feats instead of 10.

lsfreak
2009-11-12, 12:20 PM
VoP to level 20. Chaos Shuffle all those useless ones away, and then devote yourself to an Elder Evil.

Danin
2009-11-12, 12:48 PM
A Faustian pact signed at level 20 after you devote yourself to an elder evil would be able to grant 2 more feats of you choosing.

dsmiles
2009-11-12, 12:49 PM
This is sooooooo wrong....
That's all I have to say about that.

Samb
2009-11-12, 10:06 PM
I see some glaring mistakes here. Where are erudite and ardent? Both give you 2 feats each in one dip which you can swap out.

Inhuman Bot
2009-11-12, 11:06 PM
This is sooooooo wrong amazing....
That's all I have to say about that.

Iknowright!

Leewei
2009-11-12, 11:13 PM
Swap out Human for Elf:


Weapon Proficiency: Elves receive the Martial Weapon Proficiency feats for the longsword, rapier, longbow (including composite longbow), and shortbow (including composite shortbow) as bonus feats.

Samb
2009-11-12, 11:24 PM
Another trick is to get a tattoo of psyreform using scribe greater tattoo and put a capacitor on it. Now you can swap out feats and powers on the go as the situation demands. Each tattoo takes up 5 slots (I think) so you can get a total of 4 of them on you.

Tyndmyr
2009-11-13, 01:50 AM
You need a legacy item. That's three more feats right there. Least, Lesser, and Greater Legacy.

Technically, this is true for each legacy item you have, right?

bosssmiley
2009-11-13, 10:37 AM
Two pages in and no-one thought to...

http://420.thrashbarg.net/cockmongler_original.jpg

And I have to ask; why bother to featmongle when spells trump feats in D&D? It just seems like an exercise in futility to me...

ranagrande
2009-11-13, 11:16 AM
And I have to ask; why bother to featmongle when spells trump feats in D&D? It just seems like an exercise in futility to me...Of course it's an exercise in futility; that's part of the fun. Besides, everyone knows it's easy to become uber through magic... there's no challenge involved.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-13, 11:18 AM
And I have to ask; why bother to featmongle when spells trump feats in D&D? It just seems like an exercise in futility to me...Why bother to optimize anything other than Pun-Pun?