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View Full Version : [3.5] Difference in Challenge Between Monster Manuals?



Crow
2009-11-11, 04:31 PM
Our group has access to MM1 and MM2. For some reason, over the past couple sessions, every time I have used a monster from the MM2, I have utterly obliterated the party.

Now our group is not an optimization-heavy group, in any way. But generally, they can handle level-appropriate challenges without much trouble, barring a few of the under-CR'd monsters from the MM1.

Has anybody else noticed a difference in the difficulty of monsters pulled from sources other than the MM1, or is it just us?

deuxhero
2009-11-11, 04:35 PM
*holds up MM2*

Well there's your problem.

(MM2 is noted for giving iffy CRs)

sofawall
2009-11-11, 04:41 PM
Our group has access to MM1 and MM2. For some reason, over the past couple sessions, every time I have used a monster from the MM2, I have utterly obliterated the party.

Now our group is not an optimization-heavy group, in any way. But generally, they can handle level-appropriate challenges without much trouble, barring a few of the under-CR'd monsters from the MM1.

Has anybody else noticed a difference in the difficulty of monsters pulled from sources other than the MM1, or is it just us?

Monster Manuals follow the inverse Star Trek rule, or "All even-numbered Monster Manuals are far inferior to odd-numbered ones."

imperialspectre
2009-11-11, 04:45 PM
Specifically, MM2 has some really iconic monsters, but a) it was never transferred officially to 3.5 and b) everything that wasn't awesome was craptastic. MM3 had some fairly good material and some okay material, but nothing really terrible, and there weren't any truly ridiculous CR screwups.

Volkov
2009-11-11, 04:46 PM
Some monsters in MM2 are grossly under CRed, others are Grossly over CRed. Their leviathan is a prime example of the latter, it somehow has a CR of 26 compared to the Tarrasque's 20 when it is inferior in pretty much every way. The Gray linnorm has a CR equal to the tarrasque, when it only has 13 hit dice, making it a glass cannon, and I'm not sure it's that great at dealing damage.

Eldariel
2009-11-11, 04:46 PM
MM2 is the posterchild of HORRIBLE CRS. Check out Adamantine Horror for example; couple of 9th level spells at will on LEVEL 9! Or Fleshraker...nice CR2 there.

Then there's some absolutely ridiculously weak stuff like that CR19 creature with average damage output of 14 points per turn and so on. So yeah, whenever you pull something out of MM2, evaluate it on its abilities, not by its CRs.


The CRs are vastly under and over across the board. There's no cohesion to it. MM1 at least only has Dragons, Beholders, The Tarrasque, Giants and few others at totally ****ed up CRs; most of them are pretty much where they belong.


EDIT: Don't forget that higher level MM2 stuff was meant to compete with 3.0 Haste, which granted an extra Partial Action, meaning it basically doubled everyone's offensive actions, so that's one reason many are over-CRd.

Boci
2009-11-11, 04:48 PM
Had pretty much the same discussion here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131296

Advice remains the same. Use logic and comparison to adjust the CR, do not trust what is given.

Volkov
2009-11-11, 04:49 PM
Does anyone else think the Dread Linnorm and Corpse tearer Linnorm should have an equal CR, and at that, one lower than what they currently have.

Volkov
2009-11-11, 04:51 PM
MM2 is the posterchild of HORRIBLE CRS. Check out Adamantine Horror for example; couple of 9th level spells at will on LEVEL 9! Or Fleshraker...nice CR2 there.

Then there's some absolutely ridiculously weak stuff like that CR19 creature with average damage output of 14 points per turn and so on. So yeah, whenever you pull something out of MM2, evaluate it on its abilities, not by its CRs.


The CRs are vastly under and over across the board. There's no cohesion to it. MM1 at least only has Dragons, Beholders, The Tarrasque, Giants and few others at totally ****ed up CRs; most of them are pretty much where they belong.


EDIT: Don't forget that higher level MM2 stuff was meant to compete with 3.0 Haste, which granted an extra Partial Action, meaning it basically doubled everyone's offensive actions, so that's one reason many are over-CRd.
Still an monster with a CR of 20 should have much more staying power than the gray linnorm.