Being a Demon, 3.5e.

[Edwin]

So, I had this idea. Or rather, an idea I've had a million times that resurfaced.

Basically, I was wondering how one would go about playing a campaign where one was a devil?

In the sense that you would start out as a Dretch, and then slowly evolve to higher powered demons as you gain levels. Perhaps even hitting the rank of Demon Lord or something similar.

So yeah, there, how could I do that?

[Boci]

Devil or demon? I'm guessing demon since devil is only mentioned once. You start as a dretch and rise towards a new form. Choose that in advance and whenever you gain a level, you start to move towards that new form. Higher states, some of its sp abilities, weaker versions of it special attacks that gradually get stronger until you become that new demon. Then you choose your next demon and the proccess starts again.

[Kaiyanwang]

You are mixing Demons and Devils.

Nevetheless, I think that this campaign idea could be VERY good, expecially with DEVILS.

Take a look in FCII: there are rules (that you can take as simple sugestions) about how they advance.

Could be a millennia-spanning, role play heavy campaign. Great.

The same about demons.. (FCI). But I gues.. with more combat, maybe. Or depends from the advancements - I guess that a Devil campaign with a lot of Blood War could be combat heavy anyway.

[Ravens_cry]

Devils (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm)=LAWFUL Evil. Demons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm)=CHAOTIC Evil.

[Edwin]

Not as much mixing devils and demons as I simply forgot which one I truly wanted. :smallsmile:

Anyway, the FC II's outlines for promotion is for devils, though I'm sure you could easily transfer it to demons.

Problem is, it's not truly as definite as I wanted it. It would require a lot of homebrewing to make it work. Not that I mind.

Awesome suggestions people, keep'em coming.

Edit: Dude, I know what the difference between a demon and a devil is. That particular post is as useless as it is obnoxious.

[TheCountAlucard]

Some time back, I was considering running a game set in the Abyss, during a time when the tanar'ri were still in the process of overthrowing their obyrith masters. From what I read in FCI, it sounded like a pretty exciting time. :smallamused:

I had a table for demonic "promotions" for tanar'ri PCs, but I can no longer find it. :smallfrown:

[weenie]

One way of doing it would be to play a demon that was bound in mortal form, but can still access some of his demonic powers. There's a neat class by Rich Burlew that fits this role perfectly, The Champion (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/mYkD5jL8N9SAcClN3pZ.html), but that may not be what you want to play..

[Edwin]

One way of doing it would be to play a demon that was bound in mortal form, but can still access some of his demonic powers. There's a neat class by Rich Burlew that fits this role perfectly, The Champion (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/mYkD5jL8N9SAcClN3pZ.html), but that may not be what you want to play..

While I appreciate the input, I have to agree with you last comment - no, not what I was thinking.

The Champion has a too.. holy warrior, flavor to it. And I don't want a demon-in-a-mortal-body thing, because one, I want actual demons, and two, the idea of someone playing something as puny as a Dretch is hilarious. :smallbiggrin:

But thanks anyway.


Some time back, I was considering running a game set in the Abyss, during a time when the tanar'ri were still in the process of overthrowing their obyrith masters. From what I read in FCI, it sounded like a pretty exciting time.

I had a table for demonic "promotions" for tanar'ri PCs, but I can no longer find it.

Awwwww, I really could've used that table.. :smallfrown:

[dsmiles]

In Palladium's Mystic China setting, which I paraphrase from regularly in my campaigns, there is a R.C.C. (racial character class for those not familiar with Palladium's system) that is called "Reformed Demon." I think a reverse of that progression would be useful for powering up a demon from a dretch or manes to something more powerful.

EDIT: Also, the 3.0 book "Savage Species" has some good rules for starting a demon character at level 1.

[Lycanthromancer]

A player in my PbP Planescape game (Gorgondantess) is playing an imp right now. He's going to gain a few outsider HD, then the next time he levels up he's going to find himself ascended (descended?) to the next fiendish form, with a few slight modifications to make him slightly more party-friendly.

I agree. It is a nice idea.

[Edwin]

In Palladium's Mystic China setting, which I paraphrase from regularly in my campaigns, there is a R.C.C. (racial character class for those not familiar with Palladium's system) that is called "Reformed Demon." I think a reverse of that progression would be useful for powering up a demon from a dretch or manes to something more powerful.

Not aware what Palladium's Mystic China setting is, but it sounds viable.

Would you care to elaborate a bit more?

[dsmiles]

If you can wait till tomorrow, I can bring the book to where I am and give a full explanation of the Reformed Demon via PM or e-mail or post it here. I am at work on my lunch break and don't have the book here.

May be able to get it here, I can't access this site at work:

http://www.torrentreactor.net/torrents/963130/Palladium-Fantasy-RPG-TMNT/OtherStrangness-and-a-few-others

EDIT: You may have to read a few other Palladium books to translate their system into DnD terms.

[Telonius]

I'd say that it might be a decent idea. If I were to do this as a DM, I'd probably set it up so that you start out as a Lemure, then gain HD as a Lemure. When you reach a level plateau (probably 3) you can keep advancing as an Lemure, or switch over to Imp for some sort of cost. (Probably measured in "souls corrupted"). More powerful devils will be available as you increase in HD. You don't have to switch if you don't want to. If you want to skip over Ice Devil and go straight on to Horned Devil, you'd be able to.

[Edwin]

EDIT: You may have to read a few other Palladium books to translate their system into DnD terms.

Then it may be more trouble than it's worth.

I was thinking of possibly making a system for customizing your character to fit the demon/devil you want.

Say, for example, you pick a path, like, brute, which gives you different abilities to choose among, sort of like spending feats. Then at higher level, you pick a new path, this time you pick say, seduction, which has an entirely different array of abilities to pick from.

Of course at different levels there would be some sort of bodily alteration you pick, to represent your demon/devil changing. I'm thinking of working all of this into a class, so that you get all of this in addition to normal feats and whatnot.

My only concern about that would be peoples unwillingness to try new things, which is sadly common on the great interweb. Not as bad when it comes to classes, but still.

Is that an acceptable way to do it?

Edit:

I'd say that it might be a decent idea. If I were to do this as a DM, I'd probably set it up so that you start out as a Lemure, then gain HD as a Lemure. When you reach a level plateau (probably 3) you can keep advancing as an Lemure, or switch over to Imp for some sort of cost. (Probably measured in "souls corrupted"). More powerful devils will be available as you increase in HD. You don't have to switch if you don't want to. If you want to skip over Ice Devil and go straight on to Horned Devil, you'd be able to.

I thought of this, but I was concerned that the lack of choices and alteration of your character would be a let-down for any player.

[TheThan]

Funny, I was considering using a succubus sorcerer, as a BBEG (big bad evil girl in this case). anyway it beats the tar out of a succubus paladin.

[Edwin]

Funny, I was considering using a succubus sorcerer, as a BBEG (big bad evil girl in this case). anyway it beats the tar out of a succubus paladin.

Not really applicable to my current predicament, but still an interesting enough contribution. :smallsmile:

[dsmiles]

Have you looked in the Savage Species?
You could have the level 1 demon have the listed abilities for his/her Type, but look like a lesser Type.

[Edwin]

Have you looked in the Savage Species?
You could have the level 1 demon have the listed abilities for his/her Type, but look like a lesser Type.

Not sure I follow.

I've got Savage Species, but I don't know what you're referring to.

[TheThan]

Not really applicable to my current predicament, but still an interesting enough contribution. :smallsmile:

Yeah, I know, but it was worth mentioning.


Now I was looking around and I see you have three primary ways of going about allowing such characters in a game.

The first is to use the savage species progressions presented in well… savage species. The other option is to just allow them to take the demon as a race and let them advance normally, then apply the reducing level adjustment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) rules presented in the SRD.

Both are valid options, though the level adjustment reduction will end up taking some characters nearly into epic level before it’s fully bought off.

Now the last option is one I would only use if you’re pcs are all monsters. That is to totally ignore level adjustment and allow them to level up normally. You might have to kick up the challenge of the enemies your throwing at them, but its doable.

[dsmiles]

In Savage Species, some of the demon Types (old term, I guess they use individual species names now), are broken down into a level progression. If you want to start as a lesser demon, and work your way up to a greater demon, just follow the level progression for the greater demon using physical changes as milestones for the manes or dretch that is getting "promoted."

As a for instance: Your dretch/manes demon gains a level as a Succubus. Ok, they gain the level bonuses listed in SS, plus they recieve a physical change such as looking more human, or gaining the tail or small horns, etc. Also, they would lose one of the dretch/manes abilities (not that there are many to lose).

[Edwin]

Yeah, I know, but it was worth mentioning.


Now I was looking around and I see you have three primary ways of going about allowing such characters in a game.

The first is to use the savage species progressions presented in well… savage species. The other option is to just allow them to take the demon as a race and let them advance normally, then apply the reducing level adjustment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) rules presented in the SRD.

Both are valid options, though the level adjustment reduction will end up taking some characters nearly into epic level before it’s fully bought off.

Now the last option is one I would only use if you’re pcs are all monsters. That is to totally ignore level adjustment and allow them to level up normally. You might have to kick up the challenge of the enemies your throwing at them, but its doable.

Problem with all three options is that it limits the difference and characterization of the PC's severely, effectively almost making everyone the same friggin' thing, which is less than fun.

A possible option would be gestalt with Savage Species classes, which, if the current project I'm working on drops, is probably the best option I have.

But even then, it's just not quite as fun. See, if you look at the many, many demon princes out there, you'll notice that they're all vastly different, one being a giant two-headed baboon, the other being a slug etc.

That's the part I want in a demon game. Freedom in your creation, making a unique demon. I don't just want a couple of balors running around pwning peoples doodz.

No, I want interesting, special demons, with motivations and with few traits in common. One could be a flaming hyena, the other a translucent carebear with horns.

Point is, picking a demon of the monster list just wont do if I have a say in it.


In Savage Species, some of the demon Types (old term, I guess they use individual species names now), are broken down into a level progression. If you want to start as a lesser demon, and work your way up to a greater demon, just follow the level progression for the greater demon using physical changes as milestones for the manes or dretch that is getting "promoted."

As a for instance: Your dretch/manes demon gains a level as a Succubus. Ok, they gain the level bonuses listed in SS, plus they recieve a physical change such as looking more human, or gaining the tail or small horns, etc. Also, they would lose one of the dretch/manes abilities (not that there are many to lose).

This seems good. I'll look into it.

Also, yeah, demons haven't been divide into types since what, 1e? Partly in 2e? I think it was type I, II, III, IV and so on in 1e, and lesser, something, greater and true in 2e. Not sure though.

[dsmiles]

I feel old.:smalleek:

[Frog Dragon]

There was a Make Your Own Outsider in this forum. I think it was Krimm Blackleaf's work, but I'm not sure. Didn't find it with search though. If you find it, it could be what you're looking for.

[Edwin]

There was a Make Your Own Outsider in this forum. I think it was Krimm Blackleaf's work, but I'm not sure. Didn't find it with search though. If you find it, it could be what you're looking for.

What exactly is it?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

If you're the DM(or have a good supply of bribes), I'd recommend playing a monsters game. Basically, you eliminate LA and ECL, and the party levels by CR instead. It would require a group willing to limit their own power and not go overboard, but it would allow charcter concepts like this, or a Dragon player, or similar awesomeness.

[Edwin]

If you're the DM(or have a good supply of bribes), I'd recommend playing a monsters game. Basically, you eliminate LA and ECL, and the party levels by CR instead. It would require a group willing to limit their own power and not go overboard, but it would allow charcter concepts like this, or a Dragon player, or similar awesomeness.

I'm well aware of these options, but they're simply not what I am looking. I appreciate you mentioning it, but I'm not looking for a monsters game.

I want a game where you start off as a low powered demon/devil, and work your way up through the ranks of hell or the abyss or whatever.

What I do not want, is picking the already existing demons of the SRD, slapping on some class levels, or breaking them down ala Savage Species, and call it a day.

What I am looking for, is a way to customize the PC demons from scratch, eventually creating unique, powerful demons who possibly could topple a low ranking prince. And one of the ways I'm doing this, or attempting to, is homebrewing a class that allows just that.

I was hoping to get some suggestions from you guys on ways to do, so yes, I'm appreciative of you input, but it's not the right style.

[Xefas]

There was a Make Your Own Outsider in this forum. I think it was Krimm Blackleaf's work, but I'm not sure. Didn't find it with search though. If you find it, it could be what you're looking for.

:smalleek: My work just got confused with Krimm Blackleafs'?

I don't think I've ever felt more accomplished. :smallbiggrin:

Link to the Make Your Own Outsider (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4152502)

Keep in mind, this was initially just the (admittedly simplistic) proto-version. I fully intended (and intend) to make a newer version that's much more awesome in every way. I just...haven't gotten around to it. Real life, writer's block, etc.

[Edwin]

:smalleek: My work just got confused with Krimm Blackleafs'?

I don't think I've ever felt more accomplished. :smallbiggrin:

Link to the Make Your Own Outsider (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4152502)

Keep in mind, this was initially just the proto-version. I fully intended (and intend) to make a newer version that's much more awesome in every way. I just...haven't gotten around to it. Real life, writer's block, etc.

Aha, see this! This is something that I can use, and big time so.

It's very close to what I'm doing, but much more simplified.

I've gotta read this through thoroughly.

Thanks man.

[Crafty Cultist]

You could have the party as souls that end up in hell. they start out as normal characters but gain demonic abilities based on story accomplishments.

[Edwin]

You could have the party as souls that end up in hell. they start out as normal characters but gain demonic abilities based on story accomplishments.

That was suggested earlier, and as I said then, I want demons, not mortals IN SPA.. Hell. :smallamused:

It's a cool idea, sure, but let's stick to one theme at a time.

[TheThan]

I'm well aware of these options, but they're simply not what I am looking. I appreciate you mentioning it, but I'm not looking for a monsters game.

I want a game where you start off as a low powered demon/devil, and work your way up through the ranks of hell or the abyss or whatever.

What I do not want, is picking the already existing demons of the SRD, slapping on some class levels, or breaking them down ala Savage Species, and call it a day.

What I am looking for, is a way to customize the PC demons from scratch, eventually creating unique, powerful demons who possibly could topple a low ranking prince. And one of the ways I'm doing this, or attempting to, is homebrewing a class that allows just that.

I was hoping to get some suggestions from you guys on ways to do, so yes, I'm appreciative of you input, but it's not the right style.


Ahh well thanks for the clarification. Considering what you want, I think the best place to start is with a completely different system besides dnd. Seems like dnd has too many constraints placed upon the class/level system to really be able to do what you’re looking for.

I would suggest something like BESM (big eyes, small mouth) 3rd edition or some other point buy game. You can throw out the anime stuff and just use the system. It can do exactly pretty much anything, including what you’re looking at doing.

[Edwin]

Ahh well thanks for the clarification. Considering what you want, I think the best place to start is with a completely different system besides dnd. Seems like dnd has too many constraints placed upon the class/level system to really be able to do what you’re looking for.

I would suggest something like BESM (big eyes, small mouth) 3rd edition or some other point buy game. You can throw out the anime stuff and just use the system. It can do exactly pretty much anything, including what you’re looking at doing.

Your point is valid enough - yes, dnd has its very definite limitations, one of them being playing anything but an elf wizard or a human fighter, but that's half the fun of doing this. The challenge.

And, it's also the reason I wanted to simplify it by making it a class/race combo rather than slapping on an existing demon.

For example; Want to be a big ass balor-type? Okay, sure, we call your race Tanar'ri, slap a +2 str on your ability scores, and you just make sure to pick the most balor-like abilities of my new hombrewed demon class.

Want to be a succubus? +2 cha and same process. Rinse and repeat.

Simple, understandable, and it follows the rules of dnd.

Not perfect, but viable.

[The Dark Fiddler]

:smalleek: My work just got confused with Krimm Blackleafs'?

I don't think I've ever felt more accomplished. :smallbiggrin:

Link to the Make Your Own Outsider (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4152502)

Keep in mind, this was initially just the (admittedly simplistic) proto-version. I fully intended (and intend) to make a newer version that's much more awesome in every way. I just...haven't gotten around to it. Real life, writer's block, etc.

Do you want help? It'd be an honor to work with you, I think.

Even though everything I suggest would be completely crappy half the time, and unbalanced the other half. :smalltongue:

I still love the idea behind that class though.

[Noble Savant]

Say, for example, you pick a path, like, brute, which gives you different abilities to choose among, sort of like spending feats. Then at higher level, you pick a new path, this time you pick say, seduction, which has an entirely different array of abilities to pick from.

Now this idea sounds really very interesting. Demons are embodiments of a certain mortal sin, (Lust, Gluttony, etc), so you could create a path that corresponds to each of the seven cardinal sins, along with any other lesser sins you want to add.

It would be a bit hard to balance that many different ability lists, but you would get amazing range with your demons.
Lust + Gluttony = Demon of Hedonism (Extreme Succubus? This? (http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g107/greatamericantaliban/Hedonismbot-1.jpg) You decide!)

If you want to go along with this idea you can count on me for assistance.

[Gamerlord]

Here is an idea: Your players start with a base form they choose, and as they level up gain more and more abilities, they can choose one new ability from several whenever you give them the option, like say, every 3 levels, just like with feats, some abilities would require others, but others have no requirements, this could allow the fearsome brute to not just be a fearsome brute because if he wants too, he could pick a none-brutish ability for his next choice.

[Edwin]

Now this idea sounds really very interesting. Demons are embodiments of a certain mortal sin, (Lust, Gluttony, etc), so you could create a path that corresponds to each of the seven cardinal sins, along with any other lesser sins you want to add.

It would be a bit hard to balance that many different ability lists, but you would get amazing range with your demons.
Lust + Gluttony = Demon of Hedonism (Extreme Succubus? This? (http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g107/greatamericantaliban/Hedonismbot-1.jpg) You decide!)

If you want to go along with this idea you can count on me for assistance.

That's actually a great idea. So far my take on it was simply to do more of an archtype path. Like, a path called Brute, in which there are three different abilities to choose from.

But I like this better somehow.

Loads of work, but very interesting.. I'll take a look at it when I get time.

Edit: Also, since they're demons, and aiming for individuality, I included something called Traits.

A trait gives you a physical "mutation", like the head of a baboon in Demogorgon's case, and a complimentary ability. This way you can customize your physical form all you want, creating a truly unique demon.

[Teeka]

Because of my situation, I end up doing all sorts of unusual things in my gaming sessions and I find that working together with the players helps things develop. I don't know if what I'm going to say will be helpful, but it's worth a try.

To begin this, I would examine what I think a demon would start out like in its most basic, weak form. This would be what all of the players would start out as. It would not exist in any book, so I'd need to make it from scratch. I would also come up with a short list of modifications that could be made, abilities/traits that wouldn't be too powerful for a starting character, but would make the player characters individuals, showing just a hint of where they'll go as they gain in power.

While thinking this all over I would get in touch with my players, give them a quick summary of the notion I have about them playing as demons working their way up (down?) through the ranks and ask them what sort of demon that they would like to be if they could be a demon lord. They can describe physical traits, abilities, or just things that they think makes a proper demon, anything to give you a notion of where to go. From there your job would be to determine how the players would get closer to their ideal demon as they grow in power. With luck your players will all come up with completely original creations and you will have an easier time of things than if you had to make everything from scratch to cover all possible things your players might want.

Once you know what your players consider their individual ideal demons, you just break those ideal demons down into a series of traits that could be added to your starting demon concept. These traits would be added as the characters 'level up'. It'll be a lot of work, but over all it'll probably be more rewarding for the players that way.

Or at least that's how I'd plan on doing it if I could ever get together a group who knows how to RP and doesn't play evil as being exceedingly dumb.