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Gan The Grey
2009-11-15, 10:58 PM
Uh, actually, this is incorrect. The heavy rate of technological advance that has occurred in the modern west is pretty much 100% a consequence of its large middle class. Boredom is the mother of invention, since it means you have time to innovate rather than run away from utahraptors.

Being middle class doesn't mean you have enough money to keep you bored. Being middle class means you have to work to survive. Boredom is the right of the rich, something the large middle class is not. The reason the middle class invents so much is because they feel they need to invent in order to procure financial security or solve a problem in their life that would otherwise be too expensive to fix. So, actually, you are incorrect.


Historical tribes lived in all the countries which are now agrarian. African tribesmen remained so because there wasn't much arable land and until less than a couple centuries ago they had never encountered agrarian societies.

This point does not change the similarities between the Talenta halflings and the Plains Indians. Also, according to a chart in the PHB I believe, halflings tend toward the more chaotic side of the alignment spectrum, as is also evident in their innate wanderlust and mischievousness. This does not make them stupid. This makes them free-spirits. My mother wants to buy a motor home and live all over the country, and she is one of the wisest, smartest people I know. (bias :smallsmile:)


dunno, raising carnivores for food is kind of dumb. I mean, plant-eating animals already eat a whole lot, and carnivores have to eat even more (effectively). Did hunter-gatherers even raise animals for eating at all?

I could potentially take this flat observation at face value and agree, but it takes me little extra thought to balance the issues. The main question is whether the benefits can outweigh the detriments. Maybe they are highly nutritious. Maybe they are super tasty. Maybe they require only small amounts of food to grow, and grow quickly. Also, maybe only the more respected halflings possess such mounts. Maybe only special hunting parties do. It isn't hard to reconcile the problems with a little creative thought, and your previous response that it is physically impossible for you to do so is less a declaration of incapability, and more an admission of willful stubbornness. Just calling it as I see it.

EDIT I misread the part about being physically impossible to imagine this. I apologize.

It takes little difficultly to dispute many elements of DnD. The true test lies in justifying its seemingly improbable or illogical aspects, and in fact, can be one of the most enjoyable and rewarding tasks in world-building and campaign-consistency.

Gan The Grey
2009-11-15, 11:17 PM
Just for everyone to see, I went back to make sure I read that right, and OP never said he was physically incapable of imagining how this could work. I completely misread that.

So, my bad sir.

I do, however, stand by my assertion that, when the question 'how?' arises when you come across a situation like this, you break it down and attempt to explain it in a logical manner. And there are plethora ways that this can be explained.

Tiki Snakes
2009-11-16, 12:03 AM
Eh, alright. Strictly 4e stuff rather than 3rd, then, Eh?

Okay, then here's a part I can deal with quite simply and conclusively;
"Halflings are Cowards"

Bold: [Halflings] gain a +5 racial bonus to saving throws against fear.

ALSO;
Halfling Characteristics: Brave, curious, determined, down-to-earth, friendly, good-natured, lucky, nimble, optimistic, practical, resourceful, warm.

ALSO; (from "Playing a Halfling")
'Halfling adventurers are brave and faithful companions, relying on stealth and trickery in battle rather than raw might or magic. '

So, by the exact wording of 4e, Halflings are officially Bold, Brave and Determined.

Asbestos
2009-11-16, 02:14 AM
All halfling "civilization," in spite of their close proximity and relations to civilized, sedentary communities, is still just a bunch savage hunter-gatherers. That implies a lack of intelligence.

I'm not sure the last time I saw such a post filled with such racist implications on these boards... the official WotC boards on the other hand...

Also, awesome post Tiki Snakes. I can't wait for the response *munches popcorn*

Jade_Tarem
2009-11-16, 02:49 AM
Uh, actually, this is incorrect. The heavy rate of technological advance that has occurred in the modern west is pretty much 100% a consequence of its large middle class. Boredom is the mother of invention, since it means you have time to innovate rather than run away from utahraptors.

Actually, this is incorrect. The heavy rate of technological advance that has occurred in the modern west is a consequence of about a zillion different factors from one time to another - very few of which had anything to do with a middle class.

To begin with, throughout history, large governments have driven some research, including virtually all military research. Whether it's reverse engineering nifty gadgets brought to you from foreign lands through trade or what, the local people in charge were (with some exceptions) willing to fund people who were willing to reproduce it for them. The Romans were especially good at it.

In the modern era, little has changed on this front. The entire worldwide space program was pretty much fueled 100% by the Cold War and funded by superpowers. For instance, the atomic bomb was created in research facilities under Chicago and later out in the middle of nowhere in the Southeast US, not Joe's garage. And I promise that they didn't invent it out of boredom.

In many cases in the middle ages, new technological innovations were born of necessity and invented by people who bore no resemblence to the middle class - due to the severe manpower shortages caused by the fall of Rome and the plague showing up every few years to kick Europe's can, new devices had to be made to save labor or there wouldn't be enough food to go around.

A number of technological innovations from this time are also from the Church. Yes, that church. Christian monasteries (some of them, anyway) were quite the hotbeds of technological development, due to the fact that those staying at said monasteries were generally better educated and had a good division of labor going that let them do this kind of thing. Some of these monks actually believed that Armageddon was coming soon and that we would need new inventions to fight of the forces of Hell. No joke. This continued up until the Reformation, which made the Catholic church uneasy about people challenging established doctrine and set up the stereotype of Church vs. Science that persists to this day.

There were some inventions that are attributable to people who are arguably middle class - although I think you'll find that many of the famous inventors count more as aristocrats, or at least rich people, than middle class workers. However, saying that most of these people did these things out of ennui or that the middle class produced the majority of advancements in the west is just flat inaccurate.

The more you know!

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-16, 03:25 AM
http://www.searchviews.com/wp-content/themes/clean-copy-full-3-column-1/images/the_more_you_know2.jpgWell said! *Applauds*

Sinfire Titan
2009-11-16, 12:37 PM
At Cyclone: have you or anyone you know on a personal level ever attempted to tame a Clawfoot or Fastieth, or witnessed a Talenta Halfling do so? No? Then your argument is hypothetical. It is fully possible that affor mentioned Halflings have developed a method of taming dinosaurs in Eberron. How realistic it is would be irrelevant because no living being has ever done so.

Cyclone231
2009-11-16, 04:07 PM
At Cyclone: have you or anyone you know on a personal level ever attempted to tame a Clawfoot or Fastieth, or witnessed a Talenta Halfling do so?I'd answer this, but I'm under an NDA. Sorry.

Gan The Grey
2009-11-16, 10:12 PM
{Scrubbed}

Cyclone231
2009-11-16, 10:27 PM
{Scrubbed}

Just because you guys feel it necessary to post approximately one million words about the most mundane crap, doesn't mean that I'm a "troll" because I don't put together a line-by-line rebuttal. Again, I'm not spending a huge amount of time maintaining my topic about how using arctic animals in a desert environment makes no sense.

Asbestos
2009-11-16, 10:37 PM
Perhaps respond to Tiki Snakes most recent post then. Or maybe you should just make an argument with something solid to back it up you know, that 'mundane crap'.

Tavar
2009-11-16, 10:39 PM
Perhaps then you could respond to any post with an argument that amounts to more than "LALALALALLALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU YOU'R SO WRONG!!!!11!!!".

Roland St. Jude
2009-11-16, 10:44 PM
Sheriff of Moddingham: This thread has degenerated about as far as we can allow. Please don't call others trolls, please don't troll, and please don't discuss real world religion - not even when it seems relevant.