Would true seeing be good enough?

[ZerglingOne]

After all, Girard was/is an epic illusionist. If no scrying spell could pierce Xykon's cloister, what makes Roy think true seeing will be good enough to see through Girard's epic illusions?

[Ancalagon]

I doubt all the the illusion will be epic.

If true seeing "only" pierces the non-epic ones (there are probably a hundred normal ones per each epic one) that would already be a lot.

[Cracklord]

Well, if it is there won't be much conflict or tension, will there?
Of course, if it's written in such a way that spells can't do what it says on the tin, then it's a bit harsh on the spellcasters.

[Jair Barik]

Who wants to bet that Girard has filled the area his illusions are in with a permanent, invisible fog of some such. Anyone without magical sight can see illusions, anyone with it can see nothing.

[Barlen]

It would work better if you just put the real gate behind (or buried in) a stone wall and create illusions of it to mislead anyone looking for it.

But keep in mind in this case the party (and hence Girard) doesn't want to access the gate, the want to keep Xykon and company from doing so.

[Starscream]

Technically TS only lasts a minute per level, but plot is more important than mechanics, and Roy and Durkon seem to think that the two preparations they have will be enough.

But Girard is an expert in this sort of thing, so I'm sure he won't allow a universe destroying MacGuffin fall into the someone's hands simply because they have a 5th level spell slot. There are other types of illusions than simply visual ones. Some can get inside your mind, affect all five senses, or are even partially real.

And knowing something is an illusion does not necessarily mean you can convince others. True, they get a bonus to their save if you say "that isn't real", but there are six party members and someone's bound to fail.

All Girard needs to do is separate the person(s) with TS cast on them from the rest, and the party will be as vulnerable as any.

[fangthane]

Who wants to bet that Girard has filled the area his illusions are in with a permanent, invisible fog of some such. Anyone without magical sight can see illusions, anyone with it can see nothing.

Woo, I was thinking along the same lines as an earlier poster and thinking mixing up transmutes and illusion* would be great, but this... This I like and hadn't thought of myself. I do hope you don't mind that I'm going to steal it even if you do. :) It'll make a wonderful higher-level analog for the stuff my lower-level illusionist enemies do already (Illusions of walls where there are tunnels and vice-versa, with some very real rolling-ball and spike traps) and a perfect way around TS at higher levels (in addition to mixing transmutations). Permanent Obscuring Mist and a permanent illusion of clear air. I like it. Hoses people who don't prepare the right other spells (gust/control wind, summon air elemental, etc) and gives me good divination hooks.

*can't be distinguished outside of 60' at which point concentration would allow someone with decent spellcraft to identify illu vs transmutation school if they have a persistent detect going; without TS and Detect Magic though, no dice.

[Atronach]

After all, Girard was/is an epic illusionist. If no scrying spell could pierce Xykon's cloister, what makes Roy think true seeing will be good enough to see through Girard's epic illusions?

Okay... The illusions are supposed to be permanent, correct? If it is permanent, then it should not be as powerful, even if he is Epic Level, correct? My presumption is that The Order will be able to see through most illusions. Therefore, they will be able to get themselves into trouble in particularly humorous ways, no? Hopefully?

[Bibliomancer]

The Matrix is an epic level illusion.

Girard may well have it set up so that any intruder ends up entering an equivalent of the Matrix whenever they enter a certain radius from the Gate. This way, they can use true seeing within the spell to see through various minor difficulties and keep advancing, all the while not realizing that they failed their initial Will Save.

If this were the case, then True Seeing would not be enough. No, not even if you're wearing sunglasses while casting it.

[ThePhantasm]

Whatever the case may be, we can expect that the adventure will adhere to Murphy's Law for plot tension purposes.

[thubby]

dispelling glyph at the front door :smallamused:

illusions are all as powerful as their crafter is clever. make the real thing as bizarre as the illusions and no one will have any idea what's going on.
and then of course there's shadow spells, which get downright screwy.

[Raw_fishFood]

I hate to post, considering I know next to nothing about Dungeons and Dragons Rules... but I am suspecting that we may see plenty of non-magical illusions. Things like the stone bridge from Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade.

I think anybody who is looking for the gate will have foreknowledge about the nature of what would be protecting it (in this case, magic illusions) and the best way to stymie them would be to to have illusions that no magic can remove, because there's no magic to them.

[Terrace]

I think anybody who is looking for the gate will have foreknowledge about the nature of what would be protecting it (in this case, magic illusions) and the best way to stymie them would be to to have illusions that no magic can remove, because there's no magic to them.

In which case, Girard would be absurdly irresponsible not to use various non-magical illusions. And hey, who decided that illusionists have to use magic for ALL of their tricks?

[theinsulabot]

i doubt it, no

as a matter of fact i think there is an epic feat rolling around there somewhere which forces a save on someone using magic to break your illusions which forces them to make a check against your respective caster levels or it fails to peirce the illusion, and durkon, the occasional natural 20 nonwithstanding, would almost never make the roll

[pflare]

I think that 2 preparations of TS will get them through the door but I don't think it will solve all their problems. I hope there is an epic illusion that's one of those everybody sees what they want to kind of thing. First of all I think it would be cool to see everyone's biggest desires and secondly V or someone could make a joke about plot cliches

[ericgrau]

True seeing's biggest weakness is its limited range and duration. Simple illusions should still be a serious barrier because there's no way they'd be able to catch most of them. But who knows if the comic will consider that.

[Optimystik]

The Matrix is an epic level illusion.

The Matrix is closer to Microcosm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/microcosm.htm) I'd say.

[Moff Chumley]

I have no doubt the Giant will figure something interesting out... perhaps multiple overlapping illusions that require different spells to penetrate? And then some of the layers are real, which adds even more confusion. You don't know if they're real or if you just don't have the right spell to penetrate it.

[Duric]

illusions are all as powerful as their crafter is clever.

So very true.
I have high expectations for the giants performance as an illusionist.

[the_tick_rules]

The Matrix is closer to Microcosm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/microcosm.htm) I'd say.

how broken is that spell?

[thubby]

how broken is that spell?

not at all. most high level monsters have too many hitpoints for it to kill anything right off the bat, and many spells can do the 100 damage. more than enough are flat out immune to mind effecting.
high level NPCs are more or less the same.

[Linkavitch]

Maybe there will be a memory-loss charm on the place, and people who enter it will forget why they wanted to be in there, and leave.

[Bibliomancer]

Maybe there will be a memory-loss charm on the place, and people who enter it will forget why they wanted to be in there, and leave.

I am surprised that a spell like memory charm doesn't have a Will save.

Also, microcosm isn't as useful as the Matrix, because the creator cannot manipulate the mini-universe thus manufactured, and it cannot share the experience between multiple people (thus informing them that something is wrong, because their teammates are acting oddly).

[thubby]

I am surprised that a spell like memory charm doesn't have a Will save.

Also, microcosm isn't as useful as the Matrix, because the creator cannot manipulate the mini-universe thus manufactured, and it cannot share the experience between multiple people (thus informing them that something is wrong, because their teammates are acting oddly).

if you use the AOE version the victims share their little dream world. in theory you could pile in tons of people if you chopped them all down to like 1 or 2 hp and cast it.

[Super_slash2]

It'd be even weirder because they have no idea what item is being used to seal the gate.

I'd like The Matrix Effect to be what is used though. How do you even know it's a desert and not a tropical rainforest? :smallbiggrin:

[Tarnius Bross]

Who needs illusions? All you need to stop adventurers is a huge door with a riddle carved into it. I've found that even normally resourseful and intellegent people drop everything to try and tackle that obsticale.

It's hilarious when they realise it doesnt actually do anything.

[Demented]

if you use the AOE version the victims share their little dream world. in theory you could pile in tons of people if you chopped them all down to like 1 or 2 hp and cast it.

Chop them all down to 0 hp, or to 1 hp and stabilize.
Then you can have as many as will fit in a 15 ft.-radius spell.