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Hadrian_Emrys
2009-11-14, 03:42 PM
If a creature where to be nom'd by a lycan, then magic'd into a half-dragon, would the latter cure the former or simply turn those animal hit dice into something worth having as a melee primary?

sofawall
2009-11-14, 03:54 PM
If a creature where to be nom'd by a lycan, then magic'd into a half-dragon, would the latter cure the former or simply turn those animal hit dice into something worth having as a melee primary?

From the SRD:

Size and Type

The creature’s type changes to dragon. Size is unchanged. Do not recalculate base attack bonus or saves.

Hit Dice

Increase base creature’s racial HD by one die size, to a maximum of d12. Do not increase class HD.

Emphasis mine.

Hadrian_Emrys
2009-11-14, 04:11 PM
Thanks for that, but the questions remain:

1. Does having one's type changed to dragon retroactively cure the disease?

2. If not: does the d10 HD, 3/4 BAB, all good saves (if a dire animal), and 6+Int skill points per level not make for a decent stack of hd when paired with at least two levels in a full BAB class?

Recaiden
2009-11-14, 04:12 PM
Most likely not.
Half-dragons are not immune to disease.
And lycanthropy does not change the creature type. Half-dragon does, but there was all that business about were-dragons, so I believe they can stack.

Hadrian_Emrys
2009-11-14, 04:13 PM
There are were-dragons!? I must have missed that in my reading. :smalleek:

sofawall
2009-11-14, 04:34 PM
Thanks for that, but the questions remain:

1. Does having one's type changed to dragon retroactively cure the disease?

2. If not: does the d10 HD, 3/4 BAB, all good saves (if a dire animal), and 6+Int skill points per level not make for a decent stack of hd when paired with at least two levels in a full BAB class?

1. No.

2. You changed your question, I think. For 2a, it would not change the HD. For 2b, it wouldn't be that good. It has a slightly better HD and slightly better skill points than a monk, and slightly better than a monk (without even the class abilities) isn't where you really want to be.

Hadrian_Emrys
2009-11-14, 05:04 PM
So... the animal HD doesn't count as being part of a lycan's racial HD for some reason? There are little details to this whole think that are a little gray seeming. -and no, I have not really changed the question so much as added a detail to it for clarity. I was under the impression that any class build that is based on 3/4s BAB should have at least two levels with 1/1 BAB in order to get the maximum number of attacks possible. If I'm mistaken, that is all on me.

sofawall
2009-11-14, 05:17 PM
So... the animal HD doesn't count as being part of a lycan's racial HD for some reason? There are little details to this whole think that are a little gray seeming. -and no, I have not really changed the question so much as added a detail to it for clarity. I was under the impression that any class build that is based on 3/4s BAB should have at least two levels with 1/1 BAB in order to get the maximum number of attacks possible. If I'm mistaken, that is all on me.

The type would change to dragon, so I suppose the HD would as well. They would not, however, change to be full BAB, d12 size etc.

Also, 18 Bard+2 Barbarian (for example) would give you 15 BAB. You need 16/4 to get +16 BAB.

Mando Knight
2009-11-14, 05:28 PM
There are were-dragons!? I must have missed that in my reading. :smalleek:

No, but if you're a lycanthrope that turns into a half-dragon, your animal form would still be a half-dragon, as would your humanoid and hybrid forms... and if your animal is Large, then it gets wings...

Starbuck_II
2009-11-14, 06:02 PM
The type would change to dragon, so I suppose the HD would as well. They would not, however, change to be full BAB, d12 size etc.


I disagree, the animal HD are racial so they are d12's but not BAB it says.

Hadrian_Emrys
2009-11-14, 06:07 PM
The type would change to dragon, so I suppose the HD would as well. They would not, however, change to be full BAB, d12 size etc.

Also, 18 Bard+2 Barbarian (for example) would give you 15 BAB. You need 16/4 to get +16 BAB.

>_< Math failure on my part. I have no idea how I got that mixed up.

Mando: So... the half-dragon template DOES effect lycan HD?

Starbuck: Wait. So, you're saying that the animal hd of d8 gets switched to a d12 instead of being bumped up to a d10?

Starbuck_II
2009-11-14, 06:24 PM
>_< Math failure on my part. I have no idea how I got that mixed up.

Mando: So... the half-dragon template DOES effect lycan HD?

Starbuck: Wait. So, you're saying that the animal hd of d8 gets switched to a d12 instead of being bumped up to a d10?

Right forgot Animal are d8, so d10 it is.

Mando Knight
2009-11-14, 06:32 PM
Mando: So... the half-dragon template DOES effect lycan HD?

It ought to. After all, the HD gained from being a lycanthrope are racial HD, which are the kind modified by the Half-Dragon template.

Hadrian_Emrys
2009-11-14, 06:42 PM
While I do appreciate the feedback, the flip-flop action is making my brain hurt. Which is it, and why?

Nate the Snake
2009-11-14, 06:43 PM
No, but if you're a lycanthrope that turns into a half-dragon, your animal form would still be a half-dragon, as would your humanoid and hybrid forms... and if your animal is Large, then it gets wings...

That's not how it works.


A creature cannot use alternate form to take the form of a creature with a template.

A half-dragon lycanthrope would turn into a normal animal, since the lycanthropy alternate form can't have a template, half-dragon or otherwise.

Volkov
2009-11-14, 06:45 PM
That's not how it works.



A half-dragon lycanthrope would turn into a normal animal, since the lycanthropy alternate form can't have a template, half-dragon or otherwise.

I'm pretty sure that's an exception.

Mando Knight
2009-11-14, 06:57 PM
A half-dragon lycanthrope would turn into a normal animal, since the lycanthropy alternate form can't have a template, half-dragon or otherwise.

If it's a lycanthrope that became a half-dragon, the lycanthrope is the base creature. The lycanthrope has three forms, each of which are a part of the base creature with respect to the half-dragon template.

Regardless of how the templates are applied, the half-dragon lycanthrope will gain the stat boosts, skill points, HD size increase, and special qualities from the Half-Dragon template in every form.

Nate the Snake
2009-11-14, 08:31 PM
If it's a lycanthrope that became a half-dragon, the lycanthrope is the base creature. The lycanthrope has three forms, each of which are a part of the base creature with respect to the half-dragon template.

I see the logic, but this interpretation treats the lycanthrope as having three base forms, not one base form and two alternate forms.


Regardless of how the templates are applied, the half-dragon lycanthrope will gain the stat boosts, skill points, HD size increase, and special qualities from the Half-Dragon template in every form.

I agree that the lycanthrope would keep the stat boosts in all forms and that the skill points and HD size increase apply to the animal HD. However, I disagree that the alternate forms are also half-dragon, based on the the description of the alternate form ability.

Here's a breakdown of my interpretation (spoilered for length):

The creature loses the natural weapons, natural armor, and movement modes of its original form, as well as any extraordinary special attacks of its original form not derived from class levels (such as the barbarian’s rage class feature).

So, the half-dragon lycanthrope loses its dragon claws, bite, natural armor, and wings (if any).


The creature gains the natural weapons, natural armor, movement modes, and extraordinary special attacks of its new form.

Since the new form can't be half-dragon, the lycanthrope doesn't gain the features of the half-dragon template that it lost when it assumed its alternate form, nor does it gain anything the base animal wouldn't have without the template, such as wings for being a Large half-dragon.


The creature retains the special qualities of its original form. It does not gain any special qualities of its new form.

The lycanthrope has half-dragon darkvision, low-light vision, immunity to sleep/paralysis, and energy immunity, but only because it retains them from its original form.


The creature retains the spell-like abilities and supernatural attacks of its old form (except for breath weapons and gaze attacks). It does not gain the spell-like abilities or attacks of its new form.

Emphasis mine. The lycanthrope loses its breath weapon. Even if the base animal had one other than as a result of a template, the lycanthrope wouldn't gain it anyway.


The creature gains the physical ability scores (Str, Dex, Con) of its new form.

The lycanthrope would gain the unmodified ability scores of its animal form in place of its own, effectively removing the half-dragon ability adjustments. However, lycanthropy modifies ability scores without replacing them, so the adjustments are retained.


The creature is effectively camouflaged as a creature of its new form, and it gains a +10 bonus on Disguise checks if it uses this ability to create a disguise.

The lycanthrope's animal form looks like a completely normal animal of its type (i.e., untemplated).

Source: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#alternateForm
TL;DR: The alternate form ability removes a lot of the features of the half-dragon template, and it doesn't grant them because the assumed form can't have a template.

sofawall
2009-11-14, 09:32 PM
While I do appreciate the feedback, the flip-flop action is making my brain hurt. Which is it, and why?

Animal HD goes from d8 to d10, but the BAB, skills and saves do not change.

It is like that because, well, the half-dragon template says so. *shrug*

Mando Knight
2009-11-14, 09:51 PM
I see the logic, but this interpretation treats the lycanthrope as having three base forms, not one base form and two alternate forms.

It has only one base form, yes, but the creature as a whole is the base creature. That would be the creature and all of its alternate forms.

Fhaolan
2009-11-15, 12:31 AM
I could have sworn there *was* a were-dragon once... 2nd edition probably. I can't find...

Ah, there it is. One of the appendixes for the Hall of the High King module, one of the big Forgotten Realm ones. Oh, and it showed up in Dragon #134.

Probably doesn't help you. But there it is.

Nate the Snake
2009-11-15, 03:19 AM
It has only one base form, yes, but the creature as a whole is the base creature. That would be the creature and all of its alternate forms.

The alternate forms are the result of an ability of the creature, and using the ability to assume the alternate form overwrites the template. Keeping the features of the template requires gaining them as part of the alternate form, which the ability specifically prohibits.

Here's a similar question: What if the half-dragon lycanthrope is also a druid? Mechanically, there is no difference between wild shape and lycanthropic forms (except as explicitly noted in the descriptions), but a half-dragon druid doesn't wild shape into half-dragon animals.

Hadrian_Emrys
2009-11-15, 03:29 AM
Nate: I see where you are coming from, but I also have to wonder at the inherent difference between the two that comes from the fact that the druid becomes the other form, whereas the lycan is always the other animal in addition to themselves as is expressed by adding the animal hit die to the characters. I'm not making a call either way, but wow... This is not an easy subject to put to rest.

Nate the Snake
2009-11-15, 02:26 PM
The inherent difference is not reflected in the game mechanics. Both abilities function "as the alternate form ability" with little modification, so both function identically by RAW.

Anyway, I've made my case, and I won't hold it against anyone if they're not convinced. Agree to disagree. :smallsmile:

That said, I will concede that the idea of a were-dragon-whatever is cool. :smallbiggrin: I don't object to the concept, just the lack of by-the-book rules support for it.

ErrantX
2009-11-15, 03:41 PM
Related to this idea:

In my campaign I have a Dragon NPC and a werepanther (natural, not afflicted) PC. If they were to have kids, how'd that work?

Both are inherited templates. Would you apply them in the most beneficial order, i.e. lycanthrope first (as it can only be applied to humanoids and giants) THEN half-dragon (changing type to dragon) with the final type being Dragon (Shapechanger, augmented humanoid) ? Or would you only apply one because one cannot fit on the other (so the kid would be a half-dragon only).

It's come up in question a few times.

-X

Hadrian_Emrys
2009-11-15, 03:52 PM
Your question is tied to one of mine. so far, the general agreement seems to be that they'd stack in the most beneficial order. Now, what that means in terms of shapeshifting forms however... that's a little more difficult to pin down. Some claim that the lycan is all three forms, thus all forms gain draconic traits. Others, however, are of the opinion that only the default form is draconic. I have no clue how to call it as both sides make valid points.