Baelathil
2009-11-14, 09:55 PM
In the Tumble rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/tumble.htm), there are some details I'd like clarified. This'll matter for a character I'm aiming to take to the Dervish PrC, if the campaign lasts long enough to get there. For present purposes, suppose I've got a silly high speed, so that half of it is enough for the distances being covered in examples.
It's not clear to me how much movement counts as a single tumble. If I make a single move action during which I move past two foes, my understanding is that I do one tumble check against each of them, with a +2 to the second one's DC, even though there are typically several steps (transitions between adjacent squares) in which I would have offered an AoO (attack of opportunity). So first question, just to check: it's not one check per step of movement that would have provoked an AoO, is it ?
In the course of passing one foe, 15 feet of my movement (three steps, maybe two if done diagonally) takes me out of threatened squares, so would have offered AoO. Clearly I must be tumbling for those 15 feet; at half speed, that uses up 30 feet of my total movement. If I continue moving after that, or moved from somewhere not threatened before coming alongside my foe, do I do so at half speed (because the Tumble applies to the whole movement) or do I now (because I don't actually need to be Tumbling) proceed at full speed ? I sort of suppose the latter must apply.
Q 1
Did I get that right ?
One move action, one Tumble check for each foe, each of whom adds +2 to the DC for subsequent foes
not one Tumble check per threatening foe on each step of movement that takes me out of a threatened square.
Half speed for the steps of movement that take me out of threatened squares, but full speed the rest of the time.
Having passed the first foe completely and moved a bit further, if I then encounter, and pass, a second foe (sure, I need a speed > 60 to do this), I'm going to have to slow down again, resume tumbling to pass and do a second tumble check against this foe, with +2 on the DC. Instead, suppose I exercise Spring Attack, kill the second foe (e.g. the enemy healer) and come back the way I just came. It's the same move action (Spring Attack allows an attack part-way through a move action) and I'm passing the same foe, but I think I must still need to do a Tumble check, because I'm passing him again. Total distance covered while tumbling: 30 ft (counts as 60 ft). Or, after Spring Attack, I could go to rejoin my buddies, merely passing through one square diagonally adjacent to my foe, for a total of only 20 tumbling feet (if I chose my path carefully).
But now consider: I'm in a corridor, 5 ft wide; ahead of me, it takes a right turn; on the corner, there's a 10 foot square room, centred on what would have been the outside corner of the corridor. A foe stands on the inside corner: I can get past him by walking up to the last square of the corridor before the room, tumbling three threatened diagonal steps round him and one threatened step down the other limb of the corridor, then resume walking. Distance covered while tumbling: 25 feet. but I just tumbled past the guy once. So only one DC 15 check ? Despite the fact that my Spring attack tumbling for 20 feet past one foe (albeit in two separate doses) needs two, one of them at DC 17.
Q 2
Does tumbling past a foe, when circumstances force me to take the long way round, count as a higher DC, count as two passings or just count as one check as usual ? Does tumbling past the same foe twice in the course of one move action, having moved out of his threat in between (e.g. to do a Spring Attack) require two tumble checks, or only one ?
In particular, consider a Dervish Dancing round a foe: in a Dervish Dance, the Dervish gets to make a full-round attack while moving full speed, but has to move at least five feet between attacks and can never return to the square most recently exited. The Dervish makes, say, six attacks (having BAB > 10 plus greater two-weapon fighting), moving steadily round the foe five feet each time, always squarely (i.e. not diagonally), always tumbling. Since the Dervish is moving full speed, all this movement could be construed as one move action, requiring only one Tumble check against this one foe; or the movement could be considered as five separate acts of moving, each requiring its own Tumble check.
The consequences of the difference get non-trivial once the foe has buddies standing around, that the Dervish must tumble past. The "it's all one move" model only gets one tumble-past check for the foe being attacked, but all the foes moved past on successive moves get DC+2 increments as the full attack progresses, albeit each only gets one check. If it's five separate moves, each step the Dervish moves needs a tumble-check against each threatening foe, with DC+2 increments; they each, not just the target, get a chance on each move - but the DC+2 increments only stack within each move, not from one move to the next.
Further complication: with the "separate moves" model, if the Dervish opted to move at full speed, enduring DC+10 for doing so, it would cease mattering whether each move was diagonal or square, since no move would have more than two diagonal steps in it.
Q 3
Do the moves between attacks of a single full-round attack of the Dervish Dance all count as one move, or does each count as a separate move, for the purpose of doing Tumble checks ? (... and accumulating diagonal distances ?)
Q 4
OK, so I've been assuming silly speed and looking at one move action: but what about if I do a double move ? Is that two move actions (resetting the accumulation of +2 per foe passed at the start of the second) or one move action through twice my speed ? If it's two separate actions, e.g. using a speed of 30 to get past my guy on a contrived corner, I'm going to have to take two checks against that guy, one in each move, but at least each is only at DC 15. Similar complications to those discussed for Dervish apply if there are other foes involved.
Now to tumbling through a foe's space. The rules say "Check separately for each opponent." I take it this is for each opponent through whose square I tumble. To pass the other foes standing beside them, I just do the usual tumble-past checks. Each type of tumble check has "Each additional enemy after the first adds +2 to the Tumble DC." Are the +2 increments for the two kinds of check independent or do they go together ? The latter makes more sense, I think. (For example, after I've tumbled past six foes, the last of them at DC 25 = 15+2*5, independence would actually make it easier to tumble through the next one's space rather than past him.) If two guards stand in the 10 ft door-way and I tumble through the space of one of them, I do a DC 25 check to pass through his space and, I'm guessing, a DC 17 (i.e. 15+2) check to get past his buddy in the process.
Q 5
Is that right ? Tumbling through one foe's space while another stands beside him is one tumble-through check and one tumble-past check; albeit one of these gets a +2 for being after the other, even though they're different kinds of tumble check.
It's not clear to me how much movement counts as a single tumble. If I make a single move action during which I move past two foes, my understanding is that I do one tumble check against each of them, with a +2 to the second one's DC, even though there are typically several steps (transitions between adjacent squares) in which I would have offered an AoO (attack of opportunity). So first question, just to check: it's not one check per step of movement that would have provoked an AoO, is it ?
In the course of passing one foe, 15 feet of my movement (three steps, maybe two if done diagonally) takes me out of threatened squares, so would have offered AoO. Clearly I must be tumbling for those 15 feet; at half speed, that uses up 30 feet of my total movement. If I continue moving after that, or moved from somewhere not threatened before coming alongside my foe, do I do so at half speed (because the Tumble applies to the whole movement) or do I now (because I don't actually need to be Tumbling) proceed at full speed ? I sort of suppose the latter must apply.
Q 1
Did I get that right ?
One move action, one Tumble check for each foe, each of whom adds +2 to the DC for subsequent foes
not one Tumble check per threatening foe on each step of movement that takes me out of a threatened square.
Half speed for the steps of movement that take me out of threatened squares, but full speed the rest of the time.
Having passed the first foe completely and moved a bit further, if I then encounter, and pass, a second foe (sure, I need a speed > 60 to do this), I'm going to have to slow down again, resume tumbling to pass and do a second tumble check against this foe, with +2 on the DC. Instead, suppose I exercise Spring Attack, kill the second foe (e.g. the enemy healer) and come back the way I just came. It's the same move action (Spring Attack allows an attack part-way through a move action) and I'm passing the same foe, but I think I must still need to do a Tumble check, because I'm passing him again. Total distance covered while tumbling: 30 ft (counts as 60 ft). Or, after Spring Attack, I could go to rejoin my buddies, merely passing through one square diagonally adjacent to my foe, for a total of only 20 tumbling feet (if I chose my path carefully).
But now consider: I'm in a corridor, 5 ft wide; ahead of me, it takes a right turn; on the corner, there's a 10 foot square room, centred on what would have been the outside corner of the corridor. A foe stands on the inside corner: I can get past him by walking up to the last square of the corridor before the room, tumbling three threatened diagonal steps round him and one threatened step down the other limb of the corridor, then resume walking. Distance covered while tumbling: 25 feet. but I just tumbled past the guy once. So only one DC 15 check ? Despite the fact that my Spring attack tumbling for 20 feet past one foe (albeit in two separate doses) needs two, one of them at DC 17.
Q 2
Does tumbling past a foe, when circumstances force me to take the long way round, count as a higher DC, count as two passings or just count as one check as usual ? Does tumbling past the same foe twice in the course of one move action, having moved out of his threat in between (e.g. to do a Spring Attack) require two tumble checks, or only one ?
In particular, consider a Dervish Dancing round a foe: in a Dervish Dance, the Dervish gets to make a full-round attack while moving full speed, but has to move at least five feet between attacks and can never return to the square most recently exited. The Dervish makes, say, six attacks (having BAB > 10 plus greater two-weapon fighting), moving steadily round the foe five feet each time, always squarely (i.e. not diagonally), always tumbling. Since the Dervish is moving full speed, all this movement could be construed as one move action, requiring only one Tumble check against this one foe; or the movement could be considered as five separate acts of moving, each requiring its own Tumble check.
The consequences of the difference get non-trivial once the foe has buddies standing around, that the Dervish must tumble past. The "it's all one move" model only gets one tumble-past check for the foe being attacked, but all the foes moved past on successive moves get DC+2 increments as the full attack progresses, albeit each only gets one check. If it's five separate moves, each step the Dervish moves needs a tumble-check against each threatening foe, with DC+2 increments; they each, not just the target, get a chance on each move - but the DC+2 increments only stack within each move, not from one move to the next.
Further complication: with the "separate moves" model, if the Dervish opted to move at full speed, enduring DC+10 for doing so, it would cease mattering whether each move was diagonal or square, since no move would have more than two diagonal steps in it.
Q 3
Do the moves between attacks of a single full-round attack of the Dervish Dance all count as one move, or does each count as a separate move, for the purpose of doing Tumble checks ? (... and accumulating diagonal distances ?)
Q 4
OK, so I've been assuming silly speed and looking at one move action: but what about if I do a double move ? Is that two move actions (resetting the accumulation of +2 per foe passed at the start of the second) or one move action through twice my speed ? If it's two separate actions, e.g. using a speed of 30 to get past my guy on a contrived corner, I'm going to have to take two checks against that guy, one in each move, but at least each is only at DC 15. Similar complications to those discussed for Dervish apply if there are other foes involved.
Now to tumbling through a foe's space. The rules say "Check separately for each opponent." I take it this is for each opponent through whose square I tumble. To pass the other foes standing beside them, I just do the usual tumble-past checks. Each type of tumble check has "Each additional enemy after the first adds +2 to the Tumble DC." Are the +2 increments for the two kinds of check independent or do they go together ? The latter makes more sense, I think. (For example, after I've tumbled past six foes, the last of them at DC 25 = 15+2*5, independence would actually make it easier to tumble through the next one's space rather than past him.) If two guards stand in the 10 ft door-way and I tumble through the space of one of them, I do a DC 25 check to pass through his space and, I'm guessing, a DC 17 (i.e. 15+2) check to get past his buddy in the process.
Q 5
Is that right ? Tumbling through one foe's space while another stands beside him is one tumble-through check and one tumble-past check; albeit one of these gets a +2 for being after the other, even though they're different kinds of tumble check.