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View Full Version : Questions about details of Tumble [3.5]



Baelathil
2009-11-14, 09:55 PM
In the Tumble rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/tumble.htm), there are some details I'd like clarified. This'll matter for a character I'm aiming to take to the Dervish PrC, if the campaign lasts long enough to get there. For present purposes, suppose I've got a silly high speed, so that half of it is enough for the distances being covered in examples.

It's not clear to me how much movement counts as a single tumble. If I make a single move action during which I move past two foes, my understanding is that I do one tumble check against each of them, with a +2 to the second one's DC, even though there are typically several steps (transitions between adjacent squares) in which I would have offered an AoO (attack of opportunity). So first question, just to check: it's not one check per step of movement that would have provoked an AoO, is it ?

In the course of passing one foe, 15 feet of my movement (three steps, maybe two if done diagonally) takes me out of threatened squares, so would have offered AoO. Clearly I must be tumbling for those 15 feet; at half speed, that uses up 30 feet of my total movement. If I continue moving after that, or moved from somewhere not threatened before coming alongside my foe, do I do so at half speed (because the Tumble applies to the whole movement) or do I now (because I don't actually need to be Tumbling) proceed at full speed ? I sort of suppose the latter must apply.

Q 1

Did I get that right ?

One move action, one Tumble check for each foe, each of whom adds +2 to the DC for subsequent foes
not one Tumble check per threatening foe on each step of movement that takes me out of a threatened square.
Half speed for the steps of movement that take me out of threatened squares, but full speed the rest of the time.


Having passed the first foe completely and moved a bit further, if I then encounter, and pass, a second foe (sure, I need a speed > 60 to do this), I'm going to have to slow down again, resume tumbling to pass and do a second tumble check against this foe, with +2 on the DC. Instead, suppose I exercise Spring Attack, kill the second foe (e.g. the enemy healer) and come back the way I just came. It's the same move action (Spring Attack allows an attack part-way through a move action) and I'm passing the same foe, but I think I must still need to do a Tumble check, because I'm passing him again. Total distance covered while tumbling: 30 ft (counts as 60 ft). Or, after Spring Attack, I could go to rejoin my buddies, merely passing through one square diagonally adjacent to my foe, for a total of only 20 tumbling feet (if I chose my path carefully).

But now consider: I'm in a corridor, 5 ft wide; ahead of me, it takes a right turn; on the corner, there's a 10 foot square room, centred on what would have been the outside corner of the corridor. A foe stands on the inside corner: I can get past him by walking up to the last square of the corridor before the room, tumbling three threatened diagonal steps round him and one threatened step down the other limb of the corridor, then resume walking. Distance covered while tumbling: 25 feet. but I just tumbled past the guy once. So only one DC 15 check ? Despite the fact that my Spring attack tumbling for 20 feet past one foe (albeit in two separate doses) needs two, one of them at DC 17.

Q 2

Does tumbling past a foe, when circumstances force me to take the long way round, count as a higher DC, count as two passings or just count as one check as usual ? Does tumbling past the same foe twice in the course of one move action, having moved out of his threat in between (e.g. to do a Spring Attack) require two tumble checks, or only one ?

In particular, consider a Dervish Dancing round a foe: in a Dervish Dance, the Dervish gets to make a full-round attack while moving full speed, but has to move at least five feet between attacks and can never return to the square most recently exited. The Dervish makes, say, six attacks (having BAB > 10 plus greater two-weapon fighting), moving steadily round the foe five feet each time, always squarely (i.e. not diagonally), always tumbling. Since the Dervish is moving full speed, all this movement could be construed as one move action, requiring only one Tumble check against this one foe; or the movement could be considered as five separate acts of moving, each requiring its own Tumble check.

The consequences of the difference get non-trivial once the foe has buddies standing around, that the Dervish must tumble past. The "it's all one move" model only gets one tumble-past check for the foe being attacked, but all the foes moved past on successive moves get DC+2 increments as the full attack progresses, albeit each only gets one check. If it's five separate moves, each step the Dervish moves needs a tumble-check against each threatening foe, with DC+2 increments; they each, not just the target, get a chance on each move - but the DC+2 increments only stack within each move, not from one move to the next.

Further complication: with the "separate moves" model, if the Dervish opted to move at full speed, enduring DC+10 for doing so, it would cease mattering whether each move was diagonal or square, since no move would have more than two diagonal steps in it.

Q 3

Do the moves between attacks of a single full-round attack of the Dervish Dance all count as one move, or does each count as a separate move, for the purpose of doing Tumble checks ? (... and accumulating diagonal distances ?)

Q 4

OK, so I've been assuming silly speed and looking at one move action: but what about if I do a double move ? Is that two move actions (resetting the accumulation of +2 per foe passed at the start of the second) or one move action through twice my speed ? If it's two separate actions, e.g. using a speed of 30 to get past my guy on a contrived corner, I'm going to have to take two checks against that guy, one in each move, but at least each is only at DC 15. Similar complications to those discussed for Dervish apply if there are other foes involved.

Now to tumbling through a foe's space. The rules say "Check separately for each opponent." I take it this is for each opponent through whose square I tumble. To pass the other foes standing beside them, I just do the usual tumble-past checks. Each type of tumble check has "Each additional enemy after the first adds +2 to the Tumble DC." Are the +2 increments for the two kinds of check independent or do they go together ? The latter makes more sense, I think. (For example, after I've tumbled past six foes, the last of them at DC 25 = 15+2*5, independence would actually make it easier to tumble through the next one's space rather than past him.) If two guards stand in the 10 ft door-way and I tumble through the space of one of them, I do a DC 25 check to pass through his space and, I'm guessing, a DC 17 (i.e. 15+2) check to get past his buddy in the process.

Q 5

Is that right ? Tumbling through one foe's space while another stands beside him is one tumble-through check and one tumble-past check; albeit one of these gets a +2 for being after the other, even though they're different kinds of tumble check.

Curmudgeon
2009-11-15, 01:01 AM
A 1

On each turn in which you Tumble, you make a check for each part of your movement in which you Tumble, and additionally for each foe you pass. You can move at half speed or full speed; that choice just changes the DC.

A 2

You check once per foe you pass. If you Tumble in circles around a group of foes, you still check just once for each.

A 3

Again, you make a check each time you Tumble. If you Tumble, hustle, Tumble past two opponents, hustle, and Tumble again you would make three checks for each time you Tumble, and one more for the additional opponent: a total of four checks required. The same principle applies with a Dervish dance.

A 4

It doesn't matter if your moves are part of one move action or two. You check for each time you Tumble.

A 5

If you Tumble through one foe with another adjacent you'll need two checks, and you can decide the order for each if your movement requires the checks at the same time. Assuming half speed, one check is DC 25 to go through, and the other DC 15 to go by; you pick the order and add +2 to the second check. Obviously you'd pick DC 25 and DC 17 rather than DC 15 and DC 27.

Baelathil
2009-11-15, 07:28 AM
Thank you Curmudgeon - that was just the clarification I needed :smallsmile:
... and there was I, worrying that this was too likely to yield complicated discussions, so best kept away from the general simple-Q&A thread ...

Baelathil
2009-11-15, 08:02 AM
A 1
Again, you make a check each time you Tumble. If you Tumble, hustle, Tumble past two opponents, hustle, and Tumble again you would make three checks for each time you Tumble, and one more for the additional opponent: a total of four checks required. The same principle applies with a Dervish dance.

... It doesn't matter if your moves are part of one move action or two. You check for each time you Tumble.


... now to check I have understood you correctly:

The +2 increments to DC happen within each Tumble but reset at each hustle. So the three tumbles plus one extra opponent above are all at DC 15 except for the one for the extra opponent in the middle tumble, who's DC 17.

If I (with high enough speed to make this possible) tumble down the vacant centre of a 15 ft wide corridor lined with foes, the DCs go up pretty fast; but if there's ever a 15 ft stretch of corridor without guards (just past the last of the earlier guards, they still threaten me; the next move is 5 ft of hustle, that brings me within threat of the next group) the DCs get reset. 10 ft isn't enough.

In my Spring attack examples, both times I pass the foe I don't kill are at DC 15, but I do have to make two checks, because they're separate bouts of tumbling.

Dervish Dance: imagine I start 10 ft from a foe I've decided to use as target for the whole dance; he has two allies, each 10 ft away from him, one to my left, the other to my right. I step forward (5 ft hustle), attack, tumble left a square (only he threatens me, one DC 15 check), attack, tumble forward to between him and one other foe (each threatened me, so DC 15 and DC 17), attack, tumble forward again (DC 15 and DC 17), tumble right (again, DC 15 and DC 17, but now only my target threatens me), attack, tumble right (DC 15, but now his other ally threatens), attack and so on (assuming I have any move left) with DC15 and DC 17 at each of the next few steps.

Or, in the guard-lined corridor, the Dervish tumbles down the centre, attacking a guard at each step; first attack is while diagonally adjacent to the front two guards; tumble after that is DC 15 and DC 17; attack; now threatened by two more guards, so DCs 15, 17, 19 and 21; each step after that has six threats, so DCs 15 through 25.

Please correct any misunderstanding !

Baelathil
2009-11-15, 09:20 AM
Q 6

... and another question: if I pause from tumbling to do a bit of hustle, enduring the attacks of opportunity that then arise, does that reset the +2 increments ? It seems like it would. So, part way down the guard-lined corridor, taking 5 ft of hustle just as I'm passing some relatively puny-looking guards (i.e. when I'm hoping the AsoO will be relatively endurable) would let me regain my balance ready to tumble past the next several. Of course, six guards are going to get attacks of opportunity right then.

Q 7

But that raises another question: after those 5 ft of hustle, I'm standing between two guards who've used their AoO for this round; and the two behind me, on either side, have done the same (as have the two behind them, but those no longer threaten me anyway). So only the two in front of me threaten me meaningfully; if I opt to not try to avoid the guards who've already taken a swing at me (thereby exposing myself to any 2nd AoO they happen to be able to take in a round), can I then tumble level with the two new-threateners with only the DC 15 and DC 17 for them, ignoring the guys now behind me ?

Q 8

Indeed, generally, when I'm tumbling past foes, or through their spaces, can I ignore the ones who aren't wielding a melee weapon ? After all, they can't make an AoO anyway. For that matter, if I tumble through a spell-caster's space, while he's casting a spell, that might mess up his somatic component, but he poses no threat to me; can I just do that at full speed without penalty ?

The more I think about Tumble, the more questions I have !

Curmudgeon
2009-11-15, 01:11 PM
I think you're on top of things through Q 7.

A 8

Combat Reflexes will let your opponents take extra AoOs. However, no matter how many times you provoke AoOs for leaving threatened squares, each opponent is limited to one AoO for such provocation per round. If you do something else that provokes you could trigger another AoO.

Monk levels, armor spikes, Improved Unarmed Attack, and various other feats can let opponents not holding melee weapons threaten. I wouldn't assume I'm safe when passing an archer, for instance; they could have an Elvencraft bow, which they could use also as a bludgeoning weapon.

ericgrau
2009-11-15, 03:27 PM
A 0
You only move at half speed while tumbling. So in the example you gave the 15 feet consumes 30 feet, but movement before and after that doesn't count. And if you tumble in for a flank without going further typically you only leave 2 threatened squares, so that'd cost 20 feet of movement. Tumbling is done as part of movement; it doesn't take a separate move action per opponent. You could walk, tumble, walk, jump then climb up a wall all as part of a single move action if you had enough speed.

A 6
IMO yeah.

A 7 & 8
IMO that makes sense. But won't you be surprised if they improved unarmed strike. This is bordering on a house rule, though, so really it's up to your DM. As for combat reflexes, that's covered above; you can't provoke more than once per round per opponent for movement (but something else that's not movement might provoke). The tumble rules also say to check once per opponent, so it seems to also imply you don't need another check.

Baelathil
2009-11-15, 04:41 PM
OK, again, thank you ... and now for questions about failure.

If I fail a tumble check, it relates to a particular foe, who gets (the option) to AoO me as a result; furthermore, for tumble-through, I fail to make it into that foe's square, so don't actually tumble through that square. If I fail a tumble-past, I presume that the resulting AoO doesn't (unless it drops me or, due to some magical side-effect, immobilises me) affect the fact that I make the movement I was attempting, even if it hits. For tumble-through, the rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/tumble.htm) say "you stop before entering the enemy-occupied area" which sounds like it ends my movement, even if I had many feet yet to go; or does it just mean I fail to enter that square but can try moving, optionally continuing the tumble, some other way (e.g. through another foe's square) ? I can't try again to move through the foe who stopped me, I take it, but there may be other routes I can take.

Q 9
Does being stopped mean I don't have to check vs any other foes who were threatening me (and that I hadn't checked for earlier in my tumble), since I didn't tumble-past them ? (I doubt it.)
Can I continue my movement ? If so, and I do so tumbling,
Is it a fresh tumble (i.e. resets +2 increments and "who have I checked this tumble") or a continuation of the prior ? (I find continuation more plausible, if only because a failed tumble-past doesn't reset; but a reset would resolve the following question and avoid a related complication if my resumed movement takes me through a foe for whom I already took a tumble-past check. Else I guess I could hustle 5 ft, enduring AsoO, to force a reset.)
Assuming continuation, do I need a tumble-past check vs the foe who just stopped me, assuming he's capable of a second AoO (or didn't take the one just offered) ?
Does the failed tumble-through use up as much movement as I would have expended had I moved into that foe's square ? or s/into/through/ (i.e. and out the other side) ? or (because I didn't actually move) none ?

If I make my tumble-through check but fail a tumble-past on a foe who first threatens me during the tumble-through, do I merely suffer this foe's AoO, but complete the tumble-through ? Or does it stop me, like failing the tumble-past ? (The former sounds more plausible, to me.)


(There is a certain craziness to the fact that even the tumble-through check's DC isn't affected by the foe's armour - even against a line of hoplites with tower shields all touching along their edges to form a solid shield-wall, it's just as easy to get past them as to get past a line of terrified unarmoured peasants holding improvised weapons. Then again, if I fail against the hoplites, they'll do way more damage. But a shield wall should count for something!)

ericgrau
2009-11-15, 06:17 PM
The rules are ambiguous on #9, so hopefully someone will check the official FAQ or something. But allowing movement to continue would allow infinite retry without any penalties or time lost, so I'm gonna guess no on the basis of the 1 second lost while going <thud> <ow>.

As for the shield wall, it is possible to set a tower shield to forego its AC bonus in exchange for total cover. Thus movement or attacks through it by any means would be impossible. You could still enter and tumble through the hoplite's square from another direction, if only to show off.

Curmudgeon
2009-11-15, 10:08 PM
A 9
Tumble at one-half speed through an area occupied by an enemy (over, under, or around the opponent) as part of normal movement, provoking no attacks of opportunity while doing so. Failure means you stop before entering the enemy-occupied area and provoke an attack of opportunity from that enemy. Check separately for each opponent. Each additional enemy after the first adds +2 to the Tumble DC. The rules do provide the answer here. If you fail your Tumble check you stop. You also provoke an AoO for failing your check. This is a different provocation from those attacks of opportunity for movement, because you actually failed to move.

You could retry your Tumble as many times as you had movement available (since you didn't move), but each failure will provoke a new AoO. And the DM is free to add a +2 circumstance penalty each retry (which I would recommend to curtail any endless retry nonsense).
Increase the DC by 2 to represent circumstances that make the task harder As for failure trying to Tumble past opponents, you'll end up either walking (half speed) or hustling (full speed) past them; you'll just provoke AoOs as if you hadn't tried to Tumble in the first place. As usual, you provoke AoOs for movement only once per opponent per round.

For a shield wall, D&D doesn't model that very well. Normally medium/small characters are assumed to be spaced 5' apart, which makes for a wall with a lot of holes in it. Characters can squeeze together to share squares, but the lack of facing rules preclude having the shields be oriented in a single direction (in terms of game effect, that is; you're free to describe their visual effect as you like). The best tool the DM has for this situation once again is to add circumstance penalties to the DC to reflect having to cartwheel over the full height of the shields.

ericgrau
2009-11-15, 10:21 PM
Tower shields used to give total cover do have "facing". It's not spelled out, but it's implied by setting the shield in a position to give total cover. So actually the person holding the shield could be facing any direction, but the shield is in a fixed position. There's a FAQ question that confirms this, and it suggests drawing a line on the battle mat to keep things clear. Requiring 2 people to cover a 5 foot square is a good point though.