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TabletopNuke
2009-11-15, 01:28 AM
D&D 3.5 need sci-fi. I'll be using it for my Breakdown
setting, and Imp_Fireball wants StarCraft. Anyone else interested?

Here's some ideas I have so far:

Knowledge (Technology) (Int), Techcraft (Int), and Use Technological Device (Int) skills (Equivalent to Knowledge (Arcana) (Int), Spellcraft (Int), and Use Magic Device (Cha) skills). UTD uses Int instead of Cha, because hacking requires brains, not charm.

Ride would usually be replaced by Pilot (Aircraft) (Wis), Pilot (Landcraft) (Wis), Pilot (Spacecraft) (Wis), and Pilot (Watercraft) (Wis)

A lot of magic items could be stay much the same. However, we have the issue of XP cost in their creation. That wouldn't fit the flavor at all. 1 XP is considered equal to 5 GP, so the XP cost could be multiplied by 5, and become a fuel cost or something.

Let's hear some more ideas.

SurlySeraph
2009-11-15, 01:29 AM
Just use d20 Future (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/msrd)?

TabletopNuke
2009-11-15, 01:32 AM
Just use d20 Future (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/msrd)?

We (Imp_Fireball and I) wanted to stick with the D&D system. D20 Modern is a little different.

Ashtagon
2009-11-15, 02:26 AM
How about Dragonstar then?

http://dragonstarsrd.freehostia.com/ for their SRD. It's a little hard to find their books these days.

Anonymouswizard
2009-11-15, 11:01 AM
All magic will have to be replaced with psionics and advanced medical equipment. There could be a psionic power or device that revives you, but that should really be the realm of clone-life insurance.

lesser_minion
2009-11-15, 11:23 AM
Depending on your setting's flavour, there is nothing inherently wrong with allowing magic - one supernatural force is as good as any other.

For 'rare' items, I'd suggest simply having them require unnamed 'rare' materials or components which allow the XP costs to be paid. In the real world, after all, there is only so much platinum. If you're using antimatter, that isn't going to be too common, and the same goes for usable dark matter (while dark matter itself isn't exactly uncommon, it's not going to be easy to harvest or use the stuff).

Starcraft has Vespene Gas, Star Trek has Dilithium, Latinum and some rather strange antimatter.

Reviving dead characters could be accomplished by a variety of methods - having them be Only Mostly Dead would work pretty well. I'd suggest avoiding Clone Life Insurance policies - effective cloning is still in its infancy in the real world, and I see no reason to allow vat-grown characters.

Apart from that, you will probably want some rules for creating spacecraft (assuming that you are planning to go on adventures into the stars).

This site goes into some ways you could make a plausible science-fiction setting, although it is noted that you cannot have everything work purely within the accepted bounds of physics.

http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/index.html

You probably will need psychics, but they would be the clairvoyant/predict-the-future type. Any kind of useful interstellar travel will take a lot more than a computer to puzzle it out (all conventional control theory is based on the assumption that the response of the system is dependent on solely what has happened before and what is happening now. Where faster-than-light travel is concerned, it is kind of difficult to convince the laws of physics that this is the case.)

TabletopNuke
2009-11-15, 04:37 PM
For the most part, each dimension (plane) in Breakdown is completely isolated from the others. However, the barrier separating the dimensions has cracked in some places. The multicosm (multiverse) is beginning to mix.

Supernatural energy from magic-suffused dimensions is leaking into magic-dead ones, tainting the worlds and their inhabitants. This will be represented by monstrous templates, bloodlines, heritage feats, and anything else that looks fun.


How about Dragonstar then?

I'm really trying just add new flavor to D&D.


All magic will have to be replaced with psionics and advanced medical equipment. There could be a psionic power or device that revives you, but that should really be the realm of clone-life insurance.

The idea of Clone Life Insurance actually sounds really good to me (and makes me laugh). I might include something like that later on in the story, once human technology is much more advanced. It would be incredibly expensive, though. Normal humans would never have access to it, and they most likely wouldn't even be aware of it's existence. I could certainly see the extremely wealthy and powerful using it to ensure their survival.


Depending on your setting's flavour, there is nothing inherently wrong with allowing magic - one supernatural force is as good as any other.

The three main world-shaping forces in Breakdown are magic, psionics, and advanced technology (I need a good name. Neotech? Novatech? Advatech [short for advanced]?). Magic is unknown to humans, and psionics is just being discovered.

As far as transparency goes, psionics = magic, and they are both classified as supernatural forces. Advanced technology is different from them. For example, neither psionics or magic would work in an antimagic field, but advanced technology would. However, those who use supernatural powers have developed defenses against advanced technology, in the form of antitech field spells and the like.

I'd like to rework Eberron's artificer (and possibly magewright) class, making a techcrafter class that creates advanced technology. These items would have identical stats to magic/psionic items, but a different source. I also want to rework the incarnum classes. They'd be characters who had some kind of applied phlebonium (nanomachines?) that they had mastered to alter their bodies.


For 'rare' items, I'd suggest simply having them require unnamed 'rare' materials or components which allow the XP costs to be paid. In the real world, after all, there is only so much platinum. If you're using antimatter, that isn't going to be too common, and the same goes for usable dark matter.

Breakdown takes place in early to mid 21st century (2150ish? 2250ish?). I'm playing with the idea that fossil fuel supplies have been completely used up, and humans use a different energy source now, that works in a very different fashion.

I think the best way to ensure that things stay balanced would be to adapt magic technology into my setting. There are some problems though. For example, most magic items work infinitely, with no need for an external fuel source. Maybe that kind of technology is powered by some kind of miniature engine fueled by a perpetual motion device?

I considered the idea of powering these items with supernatural energy leaking in from other dimensions, but then they wouldn't work in antimagic fields.


I see no reason to allow vat-grown characters.

Actually, humans have gotten a pretty good handle on genetic engineering. Nearly all the nonhuman sentient species on Earth are the result of this sort of technology. These creatures were originally created in vats, but most are true-breeding and now reproduce in the same fashion as humans. The creation of new "GenEns", as they are colloquially known, has been banned, but a few groups with great resources and few scruples still do it in secret. GenEns that were created in laboratories, commonly referred to as "tankgrown", can be identified by the absence of a navel, and some small, circular scars on their backs where they had feeding tubes and such hooked up while they were being grown.


IApart from that, you will probably want some rules for creating spacecraft (assuming that you are planning to go on adventures into the stars).

This site goes into some ways you could make a plausible science-fiction setting, although it is noted that you cannot have everything work purely within the accepted bounds of physics.

http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/index.html

You probably will need psychics, but they would be the clairvoyant/predict-the-future type. Any kind of useful interstellar travel will take a lot more than a computer to puzzle it out (all conventional control theory is based on the assumption that the response of the system is dependent on solely what has happened before and what is happening now. Where faster-than-light travel is concerned, it is kind of difficult to convince the laws of physics that this is the case.)

I haven't the faintest idea how to balance space travel for D&D. If anyone has some thoughts on this, please let me know.

What should I do about the economy and currency of Earth? The standard D&D prices are for a medieval setting. In modern times I would expect manufactured goods to be much cheaper. There's also probably a fairly large middle class and pretty much no one with a "peasant" level of wealth.

I think this should be a brainstorming thread for now, so feel free to toss out any ideas that come along. I don't bite!

Vadin
2009-11-15, 05:42 PM
Have you seen Spelljammer?

TabletopNuke
2009-11-15, 05:49 PM
Have you seen Spelljammer?

No. What's that?

Vadin
2009-11-15, 05:55 PM
D&D in space. (http://www.spelljammer.org/) Go Google it and look up some more stuff on D&D In SPACE!

TabletopNuke
2009-11-15, 08:41 PM
D&D in space. (http://www.spelljammer.org/) Go Google it and look up some more stuff on D&D In SPACE!

Thanks. I looked it over, but sadly, the sites seem abandoned. There were few specs available for the equipment. The fluff was quite interesting, though.

That's okay. I think I have the creativity and ingenuity to make this project with just bits and pieces of other stuff. I can take a little from Spelljammer, some Eberron, and who knows what else.

I think some of the elemental-powered technology from Eberron is good base material (airships, lighting rails, ect), but it will need to be faster. any thoughts?

lesser_minion
2009-11-15, 09:10 PM
By the 22nd century, artificial intelligence would have a decent chance of existing - I doubt there would be any physical boundaries to an AI construct.

There may be issues successfully describing an appropriate chip, or possibly programming it, but I doubt they would be too horrific. There may also be political boundaries -

You might want to think about some of the visual aspects of your setting - how people dress, for example.

People probably wouldn't be living on a pill instead of food (although D&D-style psionics has a few alternatives), unless your technology really is supernatural (in which case Arcanotech or Magitech both work fine).

TabletopNuke
2009-11-16, 01:59 AM
By the 22nd century, artificial intelligence would have a decent chance of existing

Indeed it does. The earlier types of robots are the regular construct type. Living constructs, called "biomechs" in Breakdown, are a combination of machinery and (lab-grown? synthetic?) tissue. Their AI basically uses a human though pattern "schema" of sorts, giving them better adaptability, but vulnerability to mental stress.


You might want to think about some of the visual aspects of your setting - how people dress, for example.

This is indeed an important aspect of any story setting. My current idea for Breakdown is that a global cataclysm and/or war resulted in a shortage of some materials and the advancement of some technology and recession of others. Fossil fuels are pretty much gone.

Plastics are probably less common (or mostly reused), unless a substitute material was developed. (Maybe old landfills were dug up for discarded plastic and metal?)

If I run with this theme, then some fashions were recycled from the pre-war times. Fashion is not my area of expertise (I spend my days on D&D forums, after all).

Overall, I imagine the culture being pretty similar to what it is now. Although, all of Earth's countries have united under one government. The growing possibility of extradimensional threats will works wonders for international cooperation.


People probably wouldn't be living on a pill instead of food (although D&D-style psionics has a few alternatives), unless your technology really is supernatural (in which case Arcanotech or Magitech both work fine).

I like the idea of technology vs the supernatural, so I'd like to keep the tech stuff based in science. However, I do envision some other world using magitech (is that name from something else?).

Darkkwalker
2009-11-16, 02:40 AM
Try mining Shadowrun. It's basically Dnd in the future. Same sort of feel I think you're going for but completely different mechanics. Try mining for ideas.

lesser_minion
2009-11-16, 05:51 AM
Plastics are probably less common (or mostly reused), unless a substitute material was developed. (Maybe old landfills were dug up for discarded plastic and metal?)

If I run with this theme, then some fashions were recycled from the pre-war times. Fashion is not my area of expertise (I spend my days on D&D forums, after all).

You don't need fossil fuels to make plastics - it's easier if you have them, but there are plenty of alternative methods that allow plastics to be made.

Organic chemical synthesis is a mixture of different processes, but a lot of them can still be done without fossil fuels (if not all of them) - plastic production will slow down when the oil runs out (although coal can be used less efficiently to do the same things).

Bear in mind that many plastics are hard to recycle, partly because there are so many different kinds. Anything that isn't thermoplastic cannot be recycled at all (however, I think there has been some talk of developing a way to reverse addition polymerisation)

Of course, with a post-apocalyptic setting, you would only find plastics used in untouched areas which could conceivably develop the infrastructure needed to produce them. Even so, a lot of polymers can be synthesised without needing fossil fuels, and a lot of polymers occur naturally - proteins are actually a type of polyamide (other examples including nylon). Polyesters would still be around as well.

Anonymouswizard
2009-11-16, 12:19 PM
Throwing a couple of ideas in here, what if we place some races in the "Alien" category? Then instead of elves we can have space faring elves with a strong empire, and orks native to Mars.

Also, how about some species have cultural inclinations to things like technology. These have 3 states: strong, low or none. This could go like this:
Humans: low technology, low psionics
Elves: low magic, low psionics
Dwarves: strong technology
Orks: strong magic (they can't use the others)
Halflings: none
Gnomes: low technology, low magic.

Also: psychics. Maybe split the classes on whether their trained or not: people can be trained to use the abilities of a soulknife (who is beefed up), and psychic warriors, while wilders and psions are naturals. The difference is that wilders developed their power naturally while psions were caught early and are goverment trained. Also, make the reason be that they use more of their brain.

Manking should at least be to mars, and be on the way to developing a warp engine to speed up travel (warps space and time, allowing short hops), or use the colloppsar idea from the forever war if you've read it.

TabletopNuke
2009-11-16, 02:24 PM
Try mining Shadowrun. It's basically Dnd in the future. Same sort of feel I think you're going for but completely different mechanics. Try mining for ideas.

Thanks. I'll look into that.


You don't need fossil fuels to make plastics - it's easier if you have them, but there are plenty of alternative methods that allow plastics to be made.

Organic chemical synthesis is a mixture of different processes, but a lot of them can still be done without fossil fuels (if not all of them) - plastic production will slow down when the oil runs out (although coal can be used less efficiently to do the same things).

Bear in mind that many plastics are hard to reuse, even if they are recyclable, partly because there are so many different kinds.

Of course, with a post-apocalyptic setting, you would only find plastics used in untouched areas which could conceivably develop the infrastructure needed to produce them. Even so, a lot of polymers can be synthesised without needing fossil fuels.

I did not know that. I though all plastics were petroleum-based. Thanks.

As I mentioned earlier, the barrier separating the multicosm's different dimensions is cracking. These rifts leak energy from one universe into another. Rifts range from less than a foot to hundreds of miles long, though rifts that large are extremely rare, and currently absent from Earth's universe. Rifts do grow, though usually very slowly, perhaps half an inch a year.

The area surrounding a rift is tainted by extradimensional energy, which can have a variety of effects. These rift zones vary in size, depending on the size of the rift. A typical rift zone extends from the rift's edge about a mile per foot of rift. They grow in proportion with the growing rifts.

I'm still working out what sections of Earth are still inhabitable by humans. I'm thinking most of eastern Asia is saturated with extradimensional energy that is harmful or even deadly to humans (though it has given rise to some isolated new species).

Some rifts scattered throughout the midwestern regions of the former U.S. leak psychic energy from Breakdown's equivalent of the Far Realms, driving those in the area insane. This energy has harmful effects on the minds of those who spend too much time in the rift zone, typically 1 to 5 miles in radius.

Unfortunately these areas are hard to identify until victims start showing the effects of the energy; most often hallucinations, delusions, and mania. Removing the victims from the affected area seems to only have marginal benefit. This anomaly has resulted in an epidemic of "loony slums", sections of cities overrun with madness. Some non-profit organizations have been created to help these victims, but there has been little success so far.

Some areas on Earth have rifts connected to Breakdown's equivalent of the Negative Energy plane. The resulting rift zones inhibit the growth of microorganisms, inhibiting decomposition and soil development. Living creatures feel uneasy in such regions, and those who die in such rift zones sometimes become undead (who are otherwise exceedingly rare in Breakdown, or Earth's dimension, anyway).


Throwing a couple of ideas in here, what if we place some races in the "Alien" category? Then instead of elves we can have space faring elves with a strong empire, and orks native to Mars.

Also, how about some species have cultural inclinations to things like technology. These have 3 states: strong, low or none. This could go like this:
Humans: low technology, low psionics
Elves: low magic, low psionics
Dwarves: strong technology
Orks: strong magic (they can't use the others)
Halflings: none
Gnomes: low technology, low magic.

There aren't going to be too many "alien" species (although there are a few). Most non-earthling lifeforms are extradimensional, though I guess that could still be classified as "alien".

I'm not using the common races for Breakdown's. The main reason for this is that I find it hard to believe that so many unrelated creatures would develop so similarly (especially considering that the human body is something of an evolutionary fluke). Pretty much all of the almost-human races are genetically engineered or evolved from humans. This includes therianthropes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129330) and destroyers (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131285[/url]), as well as some others I haven't posted yet.

Here's some races I have in mind and their magic/psionics/technology level.

Humans/Therianthropes: None*/None*/Medium to Strong

Psibers: None*/Low to Strong/Strong

Psibers are humans given cybernetic enhancements that allow them to develop psychic powers. They were originally created by the U.S. military. They have the same racial traits as elans (EPH), as well as the cybernetic subtype (which I'll detail later on).

Destroyers:None*/Strong/Strong

S'djeyk: Strong/None/Low to Medium

S'djeyk were originally formless, extradimensional entities of pure magic. The sudden formation of a rift between their world and ours stranded a few in Earth's universe. This universe's laws restricted their ability to function, forcing them to bind with the minds of immature humans. They reproduce by planting a mental "seed" of magic power inside the a child's mind. The child then matures into a s'djeyk with a strong mental link to it's "parent".

This method of procreation has given rise to the nickname "mind phage" among the few who are aware of the s'djeyk's existence, which they consider an extremely offensive racial slur. The s'djeyk maintain that they are the same people they were before being "seeded", that it was a harmless procedure, and that they are grateful to have received that gift.

*Normaly humans/human-based creatures don't have any magical or psionic potential. However, a rapidly growing number of humans are being tainted by extradimensional energy, which can endow them with supernatural abilities.


Also: psychics. Maybe split the classes on whether their trained or not: people can be trained to use the abilities of a soulknife (who is beefed up), and psychic warriors, while wilders and psions are naturals. The difference is that wilders developed their power naturally while psions were caught early and are goverment trained. Also, make the reason be that they use more of their brain.

I was planing to primarily make psions the one who were trained, wilders the ones who learned on their own, and mindscourges (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131476) the ones even less focused and disciplined than the wilders, but an even stronger innate ability.

Do you have any ideas for fixing the soulknife or know where I could find a good fix?


Manking should at least be to mars, and be on the way to developing a warp engine to speed up travel (warps space and time, allowing short hops), or use the colloppsar idea from the forever war if you've read it.

I have some important factors to consider before I figure out what space travel ability humans have. I'm still figuring out the timeline and era the Breakdown takes place in. I also need to take into account any major setbacks the humans endured and how that would effect their technological advances. I wouldn't want to retcon anything.

I've never heard of the Forever War. What's that?


Dang, I really need to go make a Breakdown's thread. I'll go check out the layout of some other setting threads first, though.

Ormagoden
2009-11-16, 02:30 PM
No. What's that?

HERESY!!!!!!!!!

Anonymouswizard
2009-11-16, 02:54 PM
Moderately okay book about a war in space, begins in the 90's. All you need to get from it are collopsars: collapsed stars that provide a way to easily get from one area of space to another. In real world time it takes the normal amount of time to get there, but passengers only experience a fraction of a second.

My idea was that most humans could use psionics: those that couldn't could be trained as soulknives (no, I don't know anything, I'll post up a fix for my Dark Sun inspired setting, okay), or pyschic warriors. They are taught to use more of their brain than others (the reason some cannot is that they are only using 5% of their brain or something). Those who have the talent may be discovered by genetic screening when they are infants: these children are taught to use their powers in the controlled way of the psion, using their abilities for the good of mankind. The worst fear of the governments are natural psychic that slip through the genetic screening, less than 1 in 100. These people start manifesting powers in late puberty: known as wilders to government psions they use their talent for the betterment of others. Even more feared are mindscourges, those whose talent is so strong that they can conceal it from all but the strongest seers. Feared due to the fact that they can channel unlimited psychic energy, they are exterminated.

Due to the threat of rogue wilders and mindscourges, the governments may of made corps of psions whose purpose it is to track them down. Wilders are given the chance to join the government, those who refuse have their powers blocked by a high level power that only the most trusted psions are taught, or are killed outright. Only the strongest wilders can repeatable escape capture. Mindscourges are killed on the spot, their very existence may be a secret that those in power don't want to be revealed.

This lets you keep psions as the taught psychics in a slightly different way (which was the original suggestion), keep the wilder as a self taught psion, and the mindscourge as a rare but powerful psychic.

bosssmiley
2009-11-16, 02:58 PM
Dragonstar
SWd20
d20 Future

Add
Spelljammer (http://monstersandmanuals.blogspot.com/search/label/spelljammer) for theme and flavour goodness.

Reinventing the wheel is not a worthwhile use of gaming time.

lesser_minion
2009-11-16, 03:42 PM
Please can we avoid the "5% of our brains" thing. Every neurone in the human brain will fire at some point in your life. The human brain can handle about 3% of its neurones firing at any one time, but the other 97% isn't "untapped potential", it's just not being used at that exact instant.

I think many of the exotic powers and abilities of the setting would be best explained by technology, or by some physical phenomenon. Bear in mind that there are limits to what technology can do (nanomachines don't create things out of nothing in seconds, for a start - they just allow things to be customised and possibly made a bit 'better'), but you will have to have some kind of exotic material to justify the flashier science-fiction technology, and there is no reason not to let people have implants that do cool stuff with that.

TabletopNuke
2009-11-16, 05:04 PM
Moderately okay book about a war in space, begins in the 90's. All you need to get from it are collopsars: collapsed stars that provide a way to easily get from one area of space to another. In real world time it takes the normal amount of time to get there, but passengers only experience a fraction of a second.

Sweet! Maybe I could use something like plane shift or teleport with that kind of concept.


My idea was that most humans could use psionics: those that couldn't could be trained as soulknives (no, I don't know anything, I'll post up a fix for my Dark Sun inspired setting, okay), or pyschic warriors. They are taught to use more of their brain than others (the reason some cannot is that they are only using 5% of their brain or something). Those who have the talent may be discovered by genetic screening when they are infants: these children are taught to use their powers in the controlled way of the psion, using their abilities for the good of mankind. The worst fear of the governments are natural psychic that slip through the genetic screening, less than 1 in 100. These people start manifesting powers in late puberty: known as wilders to government psions they use their talent for the betterment of others. Even more feared are mindscourges, those whose talent is so strong that they can conceal it from all but the strongest seers. Feared due to the fact that they can channel unlimited psychic energy, they are exterminated.

Due to the threat of rogue wilders and mindscourges, the governments may of made corps of psions whose purpose it is to track them down. Wilders are given the chance to join the government, those who refuse have their powers blocked by a high level power that only the most trusted psions are taught, or are killed outright. Only the strongest wilders can repeatable escape capture. Mindscourges are killed on the spot, their very existence may be a secret that those in power don't want to be revealed.

This lets you keep psions as the taught psychics in a slightly different way (which was the original suggestion), keep the wilder as a self taught psion, and the mindscourge as a rare but powerful psychic.

That's a great concept! It good to see someone else as crazy about fluff as me. Unfortunately, it conflicts with some already established fluff. But I think I have a way to incorporate it!

I'm really trying to avoid overplayed tropes and cliches here. I want to portray things realistically (except for you know, the magic and stuff).

I don't want the government to be some kind of extremist institution that oppresses the people. The world leaders carefully consider their actions and any potential consequences. They try to make decisions that are the least likely to upset the people, even the psychics. If the government wants a particular result, they'll try to subtly guide the citizens towards it.

I'm still trying to figure out the common view on the supernatural. I've got two thoughts. 1. To most humans, the supernatural is an urban legend or conspiracy. Those who maintain that it's real are quietly mocked (so it's like people who insist that they've seen UFOs). 2. It's something that the government denies, but many people think the feds are lying (so it's more like many political accusations and alleged conspiracies).

For the most part, those who are aware of paranormal phenomena understand very little about it, and are fairly unaware of the different types of psychics and mages. The main exception (other than actual mages and psychics) is government-employed paranormal specialists. The government tries to keep this information restricted to a need to know basis.

The government (is in dire need of a name) screens everyone for supernatural abilities. Since these sometimes manifest spontaneously, the testing is preformed with a citizen's yearly checkup (free health care!). Those who display supernatural abilities, colloquially referred to as paras (short for paranormals) are registered with the government's database and kept under close watch.

Minors with supernatural powers are seen as an major threat to public safety. In all fairness though, this is a reasonable view. Psychic power + temper tantrum would be a bad combination. Because of this, underage paras have their powers nullified. The method for this depends on the nature of the power. For example, psychics have to wear damping psionic restraints (EPH page 175). These prevent the wearer from using power points. They'll look different and be much less uncomfortable and conspicuous (maybe a cybernetic implant?).

When a para becomes a legal adult (or an adult develops paranormal power), they get two choices; work for the government or live under strict observation and never use their power.

The government invests a great deal of effort to make working for them as appealing an option as possible. The pay and benefits are excellent, and paras have many, many more opportunities to learn about and develop their powers than they otherwise would.

People who chose not to work for the government are kept on a short leash. They have to wear a tracker that alerts law enforcers of any use of supernatural abilities. The offending para is immediately detained and questioned. If they can prove that they used their power due to a life-or-death situation, they are released. Otherwise, the punishment depends on the particular offense. However, paras with no criminal history receive a small stipend to help compensate for the restrictions they live with.

The government requires registered paras conceal to their status from the public, but most would do so anyway. The average human would be stunned and terrified is exposed to the supernatural. Someone revealed as a para would be likely be the subject of fear and discrimination at best, and quite possibly the victim of an angry mob.

The consequences for disobeying the law are harsh for paras. The first use of their powers in a non life-or-death situation gets a para's power nullified for five years. The second offense means permanent nullification. A para who is caught using their power for an illegal purpose has their power permanently nullified and is jailed for up to 25 years. Using supernatural power for a major offense (murder, mind control, ect) results in a life sentence (and nullification) or the death penalty.

Naturally, the criminal underworld is rife with paras. False identification and other methods of concealing supernatural ability, as well as ways to counteract things like psionic restraints are very popular black-market items. Unlicensed doctors get good business from unregistered paras.

This is where I get to incorporate your idea! Mindscourges don't use power points, and are therefore immune to the effects of the psionic restraints. In addition, they don't run out of power like other paras. So the government has no method of controlling these unique psychics. They are trying to develop one, though.

Like i said, I don't want an "evil" or careless government (any more so than it actually is, anyway), and I want their decisions to be carefully thought out. Do you still think it would be fairly reasonable if they'd exterminate mindscourges? That would be certain to draw the ire of those psychics. The government knows they can't depend on discovering them all at a young age, and the more powerful the mindscourge, the more likely they are to avoid detection.

I think there might be some other possibilities. Perhaps the government relies on their own paras to control mindscourges (geas/quest?mark of justice?). It would require more work, and they're probably harder to discover during routine screening.

The government definitely trains anti-para specialists. These will include a variant of the Occult Slayer(CWar) and a reworked Illithid Slayer(EPH) (not illithid focused, though). What are some other anti-supernatural classes?

How's this sound so far?



Reinventing the wheel is not a worthwhile use of gaming time.

It is when you have hours to while away in class and no transportation to get to a gaming group.


I think many of the exotic powers and abilities of the setting would be best explained by technology, or by some physical phenomenon. Bear in mind that there are limits to what technology can do (nanomachines don't create things out of nothing in seconds, for a start - they just allow things to be customised and possibly made a bit 'better'), but you will have to have some kind of exotic material to justify the flashier science-fiction technology, and there is no reason not to let people have implants that do cool stuff with that.

I'm planing to convert items like gauntlets of ogre power and cloaks of charisma into cybernetic implants.

In Breakdown magic (at least in Earth's dimension) comes from manipulating the energy of other dimensions. Psionic power is basically an ability that some creatures in other worlds have but ours don't (like how some fish can create electrical fields and other can't)

imp_fireball
2009-12-11, 03:56 AM
Knowledge (Technology) (Int), Techcraft (Int), and Use Technological Device (Int) skills (Equivalent to Knowledge (Arcana) (Int), Spellcraft (Int), and Use Magic Device (Cha) skills).

When I was originally planning on running a gears of war game, I decided not to include Use Technological Device (INT), until I realized that it could pretty much cover anything a guy who recognizes technology spot on and can reverse engineer it (Techcraft), or a guy who can recall facts (Knowledge: Technology/Science and Technology) cannot actually figure out.

Use Technological Device in a way is also just like pilot - since some times a vehicle might merely require knowledge of how to use a computer rather than actually pilot the vehicle (especially in an age of AIs). Also, hacking in general.

By the way, Ride could still apply for particularly rambunctious vehicles - mechanical bulls for example (the cybernetic horseman space opera! Mwahahaha!). :smallwink:

Anonymouswizard
2009-12-11, 12:07 PM
Maybe they base their treatment of mindscourges on the propaganda of their ancestors? They know that psychics were originally feared, and so when these new psychics with almost limitless power appeared they decided to do what they did for the moment and exterminate them. However, instead of excuting them on the spot they give them the choice to help them with their experiments to create a anti-psionics cell or die. Very rarely should agents kill any kind of human on sight.

The anti-psionics cell is their attempt to avoid having to kill mindscoruges. They recognize them as humans, and so believe that if they could create a room that projected a consistent null psionics field in order to negate their powers. Those who hunt them are the most trusted of the powerful psions and anti-para agents, and each should be able to give themselves power resistance. Maybe if a mindscourge is identified and raised by the goverment they might be specially trained to help capture others of their kind.

TabletopNuke
2009-12-22, 01:05 AM
By the way, Ride could still apply for particularly rambunctious vehicles - mechanical bulls for example (the cybernetic horseman space opera! Mwahahaha!). :smallwink:

I was wondering if I should use Ride for things like motorcycles. Ir maybe Ride provides a skill synergy bonus for Pilot (landcraft) checks made to use motorcycles.


Maybe they base their treatment of mindscourges on the propaganda of their ancestors? They know that psychics were originally feared, and so when these new psychics with almost limitless power appeared they decided to do what they did for the moment and exterminate them. However, instead of excuting them on the spot they give them the choice to help them with their experiments to create a anti-psionics cell or die. Very rarely should agents kill any kind of human on sight.

The anti-psionics cell is their attempt to avoid having to kill mindscoruges. They recognize them as humans, and so believe that if they could create a room that projected a consistent null psionics field in order to negate their powers. Those who hunt them are the most trusted of the powerful psions and anti-para agents, and each should be able to give themselves power resistance. Maybe if a mindscourge is identified and raised by the goverment they might be specially trained to help capture others of their kind.

I think these are really good ideas. I've been writing out the laws and other setting features, and I had many similar thoughts. I'll happily include these, too.

Psionics is a new thing among humans in my Breakdown setting, so any anti-para propaganda is fairly new (probably 50-70 years at most). I think the truth about the existence of the supernatural is something of a secret. The ordinary human doesn't know that they're being scanned for paranormal abilities (Parability? Does that sound okay? Is there something better?). Paras gennerally don't advertise their ability, both due to government mandate and fear of hostile response from other people.

The government would have a bit of a conundrum dealing with mindscourges and other people with hard-to-control powers (spell-like abilities, ect). They probably don't want to kill anyone who develops such powers. Granted, such people are extremely rare. Humans with mindscourge ability are probably about 1 in 4,000,000 (almost all destroyers (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131285) are mindscourges, but that species isn't supposed to exist to begin with, and there are no more than 15 of them left). On the other hand, pressing them into government service poses it's own difficulties. It's unwise to employ someone powerful against their will. I suppose having mindreaders and someone who can cast programmed amnesia handy would make it easier, though.

I think the people who organize the anti-para groups make a kind of checks and balances system, to make sure that if any agents went rouge, the feds would have ways to stop them. Remember in the Justice League how Batman keeps files of all the superheroes and their weaknesses? There's certainly something like that.

There will also be some anti-para prestige classes. I'll probably start with EPH's Illthid Slayer, CW's mageslayer (is that the right name?), and MoI's witchborn binder as bases and work from there.

I still need a name for the united Earth government. Any ideas?

imp_fireball
2009-12-22, 03:13 AM
I still need a name for the united Earth government.

Hm...

Guarded Earth Assets Federation for the furthering of Corporate Extra-planetary (and dimensional) Ventures?

Abbreviated to GFC? :smalltongue:
----------

The New Skills

UTD, Tech Craft and Knowledge: S&T - here's how I'd put it. Eventually we can make it 'official' once we've eliminated any confusion. :smallwink:

UTD applies whenever a tech device is complicated. Other times, a device merely involves familiarizing yourself with it (which depends on character background), trial and error or an instruction manual.

Tech Craft is required to understand how a device works, or to recognize what caused an effect (say you see an explosion... you might recognize that it came from a phosphorus grenade with a Tech Craft check versus the design DC of the item). Tech Craft can also be used to design items, assuming you have enough XP and time. Assuming you have the right materials, and the associated craft skills, you may also build a device you've designed (this is why engineers hire others to physically build stuff for them; they don't have enough skill points to go around). Designed items usually come in blue prints which can be copied and function much like scrolls for custom spells (except they don't 'activate'; they're mundane and must be studied, usually reducing the time it takes to craft a given item, since then you don't have to draw up blueprints for it and spend XP, etc.).

NOTE: The act of copying a blue print does not require a Tech Craft check; instead, it's a Knowledge: Science and Technology check to interpret what it means.

Finally, you can determine the inner workings of a machine with tech craft. Succeeding on a DC to observe the item gives you a circumstantial bonus to Craft checks made to repair the item. This only applies to mundane (non-magical, non-psionic) items.

Knowledge: Science and Technology is there to cover all bodies of science (so none of that knowledge: earth and life sciences/physics/etc. bogus, although we might have to include some logic for why scientists specialize and not simply do everything willy nilly in this universe - maybe a given character will have a repertoire for a body of knowledge in the 'science' category). A high enough check can give a bonus to Tech Craft checks to design an item or Use Technological Device checks to use an item. It can also assist in other checks such as appraise, and disable device.

Finally, blueprints can be interpreted with Knowledge: Science and Technology - the DC depending on the complexity of the blueprint. Knowledge: Science and Technology can also tell you if the blueprint would help build something that actually works (or if its a bad copy/completely faulty/designed by a poor engineer, etc.).

More about science 'specialization' - Since skills like 'Knowledge: Architecture and Engineering' and 'Knowledge: Nature' will still exist, science and technology won't include them as part of the character repertoire.

------

Blue Print 'Level' - What determines blueprint level? Perhaps the cost to build the item after wards? The amount of XP that went into the design phase?


As far as familiarizing oneself with technology, someone from the standard D&D setting might not know right away how to turn on a computer (Zoolander, anyone?).

In a nutshell -

Use Technological Device: Find out how to turn on a computer.

Tech Craft: Design a Computer from scratch. Observe a computer and recognize how all the internal parts go together to make it work.

Knowledge (Science and Technology): Understand the underlying theories and equations that the design of a computer depends on (not necessarily remember, but can recognize them when reading them). Can interpret the blue prints for the design of a computer and instruct others on how to build one.

The same things could apply to computer soft ware. Coding a program is Tech Craft. Hacking on a whim or time limit (pretty much impossible without the aid of some kind of software in real life) is Use Technological Device. And Knowledge: Science and Technology is the ability to interpret and explain each of the modules of the software and how it all goes together.

Realistically, you can be one guy without having a clue how to be the other.

Also,

Rushing - Use Technological Device and Techcraft are both skills that can be rushed, as normal SRD rules for rushing skill checks.

Advance in Power in other ways (besides HD)

Sometimes a man acquires experience in other ways besides combat. As D&D stands, XP means levels, which means increased HD. Increased HD means, quite simply, increased ability to take on damage before death.

How can a person, for example a scientist, whom has acquired XP for his accomplishments and ways of influencing the world, shrug off damage if he's hardly ever been outside?

Thus, I propose an alternative to acquiring HD.

At the player's option, they can acquire additional class features as opposed to HD. Note that their level still increases and counts towards their ECL as well as class features, skill points, ranks and other things involved with leveling up (with the exception of an increase in HD).

Example Talents

Improved Snipe -
Prerequisite: BAB +1, Proficiency with a rifled firearm

Receive a +2 bonus to ranged attacks when attacking while sighting through a scope. This bonus stacks with all other modifiers.

Skip Shot
Prerequisite: BAB +8

By taking a -2 penalty to attack with a firearm, you may ignore cover between you and your target. This attack may only apply if there is a relatively smooth surface of at least 10ft. between you and your target.

Alternatively, if you are wielding a weapon with explosive ammunition you may fire at an opponent's feet. Opponent takes a -4 penalty to reflex saves to avoid the explosion. This affect can only apply to one opponent at a time.

Parabolic Shot
Prerequisite: BAB +6

You may fire your shots in a curving arc allowing you to ignore cover from one direction (left or right of the shooter). Your line of effect curves, ending at an angle of 45 degrees, with end point being the attack's first range increment (as such, obstacles do not affect the steepness of a curve), or whichever increment the attacker chooses the projectile to arrive at.

This talent applies only to 'trigger weapons' such as firearms or crossbows, but not the manual variety of regular bows (yes, it is plausible to have high-tech pull-back operated bows).

NOTE: If the GM is big on math, this attack can also apply vertically, curving over elevated obstacles to affect targets on the other side.

Skill Savvy
Prerequisite: Ranks in at least six separate skills.

Receive 6 additional skill points.

Learned Initiator
Prerequisite: Must know how to ready and initiate at least three Martial Maneuvers.

Learn one additional Martial Maneuver. This does not increase the number of maneuvers that you may ready or initiate.

Vocal Code
Prerequisite: Military Occupation (Ie. Marine) or Association identifying as member of organized soldiers in a given terran faction. NOTE: Specific to StarCraft d20 setting

Specify a language for your association. Everyone in your association who takes this language can communicate in this way but not those outside your association or without adequate intelligence (that is, espionage; Decipher Script check) to decrypt and ultimately learn the language themselves. Learning this language means that you have specified a systematic means of communicating with those within your small group.

I knew he was there...
Prerequisite: At least one die of Sneak Attack

You can now Sneak Attack targets with concealment.

Surgeon
Prerequisite: Heal (4 ranks)

Receive a +6 circumstantial modifier to extended heal checks involving 'surgery', such as the removal of a parasite. Surgery is usually extended without special equipment, such as lasers.

Offensive Retreat [Talent]
Prerequisite: Tumble (10 ranks), BAB +7, Must have taken at least one talent prior to learning this talent.

When performing a withdraw action and tumbling to avoid attacks of opportunity, a successful tumble check allows you one free attack of opportunity against whosoever you would normally have provoked an attack of opportunity from. If you would have provoked multiple AoOs from multiple creatures, select one target.

If you beat the tumble DC by a roll of 10 or more, you may make a full attack against any target you choose, so long at least one of those attacks is made against whomsoever would have normally made an AoO against you. Every attack after the first granted by your free AoO must be a ranged attack.

NOTE to GM: Withdrawing in this case should be taken very literally. That means that the character using this maneuver must be moving away from what they believe to be the danger (and not into more danger, unless they are unaware of it).

Slayer of Gymnasts
Prerequisite: Combat Reflexes, Must have taken at least one talent prior to learning this talent.

When a creature rolls a tumble check to move away from a space you threaten, you may roll your attack of opportunity before they make their check. This attack roll is the new DC for the tumble, which will be revealed after the tumble check is made. The attack roll applies against the AoO victim's AC as is normal for an AoO.

-------------

Making Money with Reputation

In the modern world of business, reputation is everything. While it has a minimal affect in most D&D settings, the information high way makes it absurdly important in modern ones.

Business is determined by association. To keep a business running, you need to hire people. Thus, occupations by association are created. The hired make money for the business with profession checks. The host of the business is the person that does the most work, and as such most likely has the most ranks in whatever related profession (most likely the most integral task or an executive position like CEO) the business needs. The reputation of the business can affect how much money this person makes as it does every other employee of the business - however, most other employees most likely have a payment plan and the money they earn from their own profession checks go straight into the business' coffers.

If the person is running a solo business however, something that often occurs in modern life, than the money they make with their profession check depends on their reputation (in addition, there is usually no payment plan for themselves unless they get lucky with a contract; something that is mostly conducted via roleplay and circumstance). Their reputation and the reputation of their business are one and the same in this case.

Ordinarily, profession makes you money on a weekly basis, according to SRD. The money you make (determined by lack of a payment plan, contract, etc.) is half of what you roll on your profession check. Additionally, all professions make you equal money, no matter what you do.

In the modern world, different professions require degrees of experience and education. Having ranks in a profession assumes that you are both experienced and skilled at the given profession. There is no mechanic for education or experience in D&D beyond background and XP, and thus that can be ignored.

It's also up to the GM to determine how much your character gets payed, say, if he is a doctor. He certainly gets the same amount if he were a garbage collector. Seeing as both professions cost the same amount of skill points however, the GM can simply roll with the idea that it's easier to get hired as a garbage collector than as a doctor - and then to off set that, the doctor usually works contract and reputation, and ultimately gets payed more, almost by default.

In the modern world, reputation has many levels and layers. Some people fail to recognize media celebrities but are in the swing of things with the latest inventors. Even so, reputation is still a linear value for this mechanic, and what a given character recognizes (and the DCs as such) depends on their background.

Depending on how high your reputation is (not including circumstances such as contract), you can go from earning half your profession check to 4x your profession check or even 100x your profession check. At GM discretion, this may also depend on external variables, such as the population of an area and outside competition relative to your business.

Current Question: Should there be a solid way to establish reputation in a Sci Fi/Modern setting?


Refluffed Class Samplings

Barbarian - Even in a world of globe spanning cities, there are still those that live by the philosophy that a tough, savage attitude will help you adjust to the media bombardment of civilization, or survive in the drug riddled streets, or the blood drenched regions of third world countries.

Many barbarians belong in the criminal element, and make up the muscle of any given job, but some are also commandos in military operations. Due to the fact that they deliberately live a harsh life style, or have gone through special mental conditioning.

It's clear that barbarians are the toughest among us. Some live in the wilderness for months or years on end. Barbarians generally have a host of 'street smarts', giving them 4 + int skill points instead of the lowest common denominator. Their savage, necessary way of adapting to any combat scenario has given them such abilities as rage and uncanny dodge. Totem variants are now considered 'Instincts'.

NOTE: Barbarians are no longer illiterate, however illiteracy may still be taken as a flaw.

Fighter - Fighters condition themselves for combat, whether it be war, self defense, or sport. Many fighters are soldiers, specializing in a given style of combat with a given style of weapon and armor. Other fighters learn how to operate equipment that others can't match.

New Variant: Replace Ride with Pilot (choose one - land craft, water craft, air craft, or space craft), and Handle Animal with Use Technological Device. Gain Martial Lore (Martial Lore reflects tactical knowledge).

War Blade - Much the same as the fighter, except war blades take more from specific martial arts, both of the past and present.

Sword Sage - The sword sage is a quick martial artist and a powerful warrior, much valued in the same way as the war blade.

Crusader - Religion and faith still have prescience in an industrialized, reasoning world. For whatever reason, crusaders fight along others, be they soldiers or warriors from other walks of life, to inspire and keep morale.

Marshal - Commanders are needed to lead armies. Even in an age of robots and push-button destruction, a voice is needed to direct it all - or at least tell people what to do.

Psion - In a world of psychic influence, some have learned to control and manipulate it. Psions grow their abilities from a given discipline.

Psychic Warrior - Some people choose to combine psychic power with martial prowess.

Psychic warriors can substitute powers for special psionic/martial maneuvers that have no discipline and work like feats, assuming they meet the prerequisites.

Ie. Nullify External EM (Boost)
Duration: Always
Target: Personal
Prerequisite: At least one cybernetic addition to self, Substitute one 2nd level or higher level power

By projecting the threads of your mind into an inert field, electromagnetic waves no longer affect computerized parts negatively.

You no longer take additional electrical damage for cybernetics.

Normal: You take 50% additional electrical damage if you have cybernetics.

Meta-synaptic Metabolism (Boost)
Duration: Always
Target: Personal
Prerequisite: Nullify External EM, Substitute one second level or higher level power

When an enemy attempts to sunder a graft, you can opt to have them damage your body (so that you lose hp) instead of the graft.

Normal: With a successful sunder attempt, an enemy can damage a graft, but you do not lose hp.

NOTE: You may substitute three powers of a level lower than the level of power ordinarily a part of the prerequisite. For each level lower, multiply this number by three (so, substitute 9 1st level powers instead of a 3rd level power needed in the prerequisite).

Wilder - There are those that are natural born hubs for incredible psychic power. Although there is only a small list of powers that they have control over, their mere emotions can accelerate them to high levels.

Soul Knife - Some psychics specialize in the art of attacking the enemy's soul, for the soul is always vulnerable, even if the body may not be so.

Rogue - Rogues are professionals of many things. They're the guys that can do anything for any organization and are often highly valued as artisans of their work. Assassins, spies, saboteurs, special forces squad - much makes up the rogue's repertoire.

Factotum - Some people are geniuses and professionals at everything they do. For these savants, what matters is improving this skill.

Artificer - Some people focus entirely on the power of SCIENCE! and its uses in the battlefield.
NOTE: Needs overhauling.

Monk - Trans humanists or students of Zen, monks have found their niche in the industrialized mega cities of modern age. Combining martial arts with technology or meditation, monks make for daring foes.

Ranger - Men of the wilderness, or of the cities (depending on the variant), Rangers are decent survivalists. If a mission involves traveling deep into enemy territory, rangers are much valued. Technology isn't always dependable - after all, machines can break. Note that rangers will depend on the non-spell casting variant.

EDIT: I wrote a bunch of fictional samples of these classes in modern/sci-fi settings but it didn't make it through the database back up.

Anyone have any media examples of the above?

TabletopNuke
2009-12-22, 09:21 PM
[QUOTE=imp_fireball;7551780]Hm...

Guarded Earth Assets Federation for the furthering of Corporate Extra-planetary (and dimensional) Ventures?

Abbreviated to GFC? :smalltongue:[QUOTE]

Wow, that's quite a mouthful. Where did you come up with that? It's a bit too wordy for my purposes, though. Breakdown's a deconstruction, not a parody.

Was all that skill stuff underneath a reply to my previous comment as well? If so, we really should move to the sci-fi thread. We're getting pretty off-topic.

imp_fireball
2009-12-23, 07:36 PM
Was all that skill stuff underneath a reply to my previous comment as well? If so, we really should move to the sci-fi thread. We're getting pretty off-topic.

Yeppers indeedy.

EDIT: Wait, isn't that was this was for?


Wow, that's quite a mouthful.

That's why it's best abbreviated.

TabletopNuke
2009-12-29, 03:01 PM
I've been thinking about wealth distribution in modern settings. Manufactured goods might be cheaper, and I'd expect that fewer NCPs would have peasant-level wealth. Any thoughts?


Yeppers indeedy.

EDIT: Wait, isn't that was this was for?

Oh, sorry, I had too many windows open, I was thinking that comment was in the Goofy Character thread.

Anonymouswizard
2009-12-29, 03:23 PM
Can I have some input on my last post? I put a lot of ideas into that.

TabletopNuke
2009-12-30, 11:31 PM
Can I have some input on my last post? I put a lot of ideas into that.

Did you mean the one on the other sci-fi thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135897)? I just commented on it.

imp_fireball
2010-01-13, 01:17 AM
Added two new HD-sub maneuvers to PEACH.

Bump.

TabletopNuke
2010-01-14, 08:16 PM
[QUOTE=imp_fireball;7683302]Added two new HD-sub maneuvers to PEACH.[QUOTE]

Where are they? I wanna see.

imp_fireball
2010-01-15, 01:06 AM
Scroll through page 1. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7551780&postcount=26)

TabletopNuke
2010-01-15, 06:21 PM
That sucks you lost stuff in the database overhaul. I copy/paste all the code of my big posts and save it in word documents for that kind of reason.

I can't help EACH the maneuvers, as I haven't played much with the ToB, but which school are they?

If you need a sniper, I got something you might like. I reworked the Cragtop Archer (Races of Stone) class into more of a modern sniper who specializes in striking from hiding.

imp_fireball
2010-01-16, 12:12 AM
That sucks you lost stuff in the database overhaul. I copy/paste all the code of my big posts and save it in word documents for that kind of reason.

I can't help EACH the maneuvers, as I haven't played much with the ToB, but which school are they?


Didn't lose nothing.


EDIT: I wrote a bunch of fictional samples of these classes in modern/sci-fi settings but it didn't make it through the database back up.

Oh right, that. It wasn't much, just a list of examples of modern/sci fi fictional characters that could match to the classes. Was annoying at the time though, so I felt I had to let everyone know that I was WORKING HARD but NOT MAKING PROGRESS, as if lots of people had their eyes on me. :smallbiggrin:

-------
'Maneuvers' are the name I came up with for something a PC can substitute HD for. I'm well aware of the confusion it's causing (but I didn't let it concern me at the time)... maybe I should call them talents instead (which were the name for class features in modern... except these are intended to be more flexible for a PC than class features)?

Holly wood totes miraculous scenarios with small guys overcoming something big and unearthly - with this rule, imo, the small guy doesn't have to be a bad ass who can take wounds like crazy (Rambo is an exception, being a barbarian), but instead merely becomes more skillful and worldly as he progresses. Note that PCs still have the option to gain HD at any time (suggesting that they 'got tougher' rather then 'learned a new trick' - this in addition to D&D class features that reflect a modern/sci-fi hero's more specified repertoire).

The talent rule works well for no-magic settings (I think) - settings with magic on the other hand would likely have the caster merely seek to improve their magic abilities (since magic and technology would have to balance each other out inevitably... or magic would overcome technology which would then inevitably step into fantasy/classic D&D grounds rather than sci-fi... in opposition to this truth, technology overcoming magic would eliminate the need for casters).

Talents are also not very caster centric (magic, as D&D has dictated, is exotic and not something you can 'learn on the side' like talents - instead, you need to burn feats to improve magic ability).

EDIT: Also, just to confirm... my Talents are in no way related to tome of battle, or even d20 modern for that matter. So you can still PEACH them up if you wanna (I'd like it if you did).



If you need a sniper, I got something you might like. I reworked the Cragtop Archer (Races of Stone) class into more of a modern sniper who specializes in striking from hiding.

Cragtop Archer would make a good sniper I imagine, although a fighter should also have the option to burn feat chains and become a good sniper too.

It's really hard for classes to preserve their niches in my setting (since the sheer variety of tactics and what technology allows demands more than niches), so instead, choosing a class would be like choosing a different build and play style. And really, who cares? Classes mean more than niches imo. The crag top archer won't be identical to the fighter unless the fighter really focuses on molding themselves (which in itself, requires lots of nerdery, and the introduction of new feats or technology that allows for that), to that class. So build order means different experience, rather than 'different job'.

TabletopNuke
2010-01-17, 03:31 PM
Was annoying at the time though, so I felt I had to let everyone know that I was WORKING HARD but NOT MAKING PROGRESS, as if lots of people had their eyes on me.
LOL

The talent rule works well for no-magic settings (I think) - settings with magic on the other hand would likely have the caster merely seek to improve their magic abilities (since magic and technology would have to balance each other out inevitably... or magic would overcome technology which would then inevitably step into fantasy/classic D&D grounds rather than sci-fi... in opposition to this truth, technology overcoming magic would eliminate the need for casters).

Talents are also not very caster centric (magic, as D&D has dictated, is exotic and not something you can 'learn on the side' like talents - instead, you need to burn feats to improve magic ability).
Your concerns regarding the balance of technology vs. magic are certainly valid. However, I have some ideas to help fix that.

Firstly, magic may function in situations where technology does not, and vice versa. For example, regions of extreme cold are sure to cause problems for machinery, due to ice blockages in the gears and whatnot. Magic generally requires a great deal of training, while many technological devices require the flick of a switch.

Another factor to take into account is regional/cultural availability. In Breakdown, regular humans don't have any magic potential, as magic does not exist in their universe. Any humans with magic powers received them through the influence of extradimensional energy. This is mostly a flavor thing though. (I don't think I'll make an actual rule that a human needs something like a bloodline/heritage feat/ect to use magic) However, magical training in the human world is very difficult to find. Not only does the government closely monitor people with paranormal abilities, humans willing and able to provide magical instruction are very rare.

Another route to go for your setting is to have the PC's be the deciding factor as to whether magic overtakes technology or vice versa. Give them access to both, and if they find one to be "broken" and underpowers, have the other become the dominant power in the world.


Cragtop Archer would make a good sniper I imagine, although a fighter should also have the option to burn feat chains and become a good sniper too.

Cragtop Archer is a good sniping class, but as it is, it fits bows better than guns. My master sniper class has slightly different class features to suit guns better (though it should still work for bows). In addition, the Cragtop Archer has some focus on climbing. This works great for a wilderness-based class, but in a city, it's a safe bet that ladders and stairs are in abundance. So the master sniper focuses more on hiding than climbing.

Zexion
2010-01-17, 07:54 PM
I have a Shadowrun rulebook. It has a great rule how you have a "willpower" that decreases with every cyborg upgrade you get.
There are also "deckers" that have big keyboards that allow them to "visualize" cyberspace.

TabletopNuke
2010-01-18, 06:44 PM
I'm trying to stay away from the "cybernetics make you evil" or "cybernetics are dehumanizing" unless I have a good reason. The "decker" thing sounds neat, though. Thanks.

Zexion
2010-01-19, 10:06 PM
I'm trying to stay away from the "cybernetics make you evil" or "cybernetics are dehumanizing" unless I have a good reason. The "decker" thing sounds neat, though. Thanks.

Cybernetics don't make you evil, but they do pose a strain on your sense of self.

TabletopNuke
2010-01-20, 09:25 PM
Cybernetics don't make you evil, but they do pose a strain on your sense of self.
Breakdown is a deconstruction of typical fantasy/sci-fi concepts. As such, I didn't want to include anything without a good reason. I have a bone to pick with many classic tropes, and try to stay as far away from them as possible.

Cybernetics in Breakdown don't cause a personality change in and of themselves (unless that's what they were made to do). But replacing a lost limb with a cybernetic one might cause a crisis of self in the same manner that needing an ordinary prosthetic could.

Zexion
2010-01-20, 09:49 PM
Breakdown is a deconstruction of typical fantasy/sci-fi concepts. As such, I didn't want to include anything without a good reason. I have a bone to pick with many classic tropes, and try to stay as far away from them as possible.

Cybernetics in Breakdown don't cause a personality change in and of themselves (unless that's what they were made to do). But replacing a lost limb with a cybernetic one might cause a crisis of self in the same manner that needing an ordinary prosthetic could.

That makes sense.
Although the cybernetic prosthetic may cause other people to treat you strangely (a common phenomenon even in today's amputees.)

TabletopNuke
2010-01-21, 10:01 PM
Good thinking.

While some individuals (particularly the "old-fashioned") might be uncomfortable around people with visible cybernetic enhancements, some augmentations are quite realistic or even internal. Though it might be quite a shock when a seemingly ordinary person uses nanoaumentation (meldshaping) and suddenly sprouts wings or giant claws.

Kiren
2010-01-21, 10:39 PM
Here is something I just thought of,

Anti-cybernetics terrorists: Their will always be those who for whatever reason believe the use of implants and wearable cybernetics is wrong. Without proper shielding, a good enough virus or a EMP Blast can overload a implant, probably killing or badly disabling many with extensive work (convenience implants or medical implants). Alternatively a hacker can access memories (their goes all your credit card information, social security numbers and the like.) *comes from an article I read about one day being able to download files to your mind in the future*.

Zexion
2010-01-22, 07:08 PM
Good thinking.

While some individuals (particularly the "old-fashioned") might be uncomfortable around people with visible cybernetic enhancements, some augmentations are quite realistic or even internal. Though it might be quite a shock when a seemingly ordinary person uses nanoaumentation (meldshaping) and suddenly sprouts wings or giant claws.

By "old fashioned", what do you mean? I'm assuming that instead of working out: "they like this, they do not like this," you could just say the anti-tech believers believe that: people doing things is good, technology taking a place in our lives is bad. Simple, to the point, and solves the problem of a massive list that DMs would have a hard time sorting through.

Also, programmable matter: a bunch of tiny spheres that magnetically stick to each other. Imagine, you could have a gun that turned into a thin sticky pad that could be hidden on the inside of your jacket.

TabletopNuke
2010-01-23, 09:29 PM
Anti-cybernetics terrorists: Their will always be those who for whatever reason believe the use of implants and wearable cybernetics is wrong. Without proper shielding, a good enough virus or a EMP Blast can overload a implant, probably killing or badly disabling many with extensive work (convenience implants or medical implants). Alternatively a hacker can access memories (their goes all your credit card information, social security numbers and the like.) *comes from an article I read about one day being able to download files to your mind in the future*.
That's good. Maybe the Cybernetic subtype give you vulnerabilities to certain effects. Hacking Cybernetic creatures could create tech effects that function like enchantment spells. One kind of hack could charm, one could slow, one could function like detect thoughts, and so on.


By "old fashioned", what do you mean? I'm assuming that instead of working out: "they like this, they do not like this," you could just say the anti-tech believers believe that: people doing things is good, technology taking a place in our lives is bad. Simple, to the point, and solves the problem of a massive list that DMs would have a hard time sorting through.

By "old-fashioned", I mean someone who prefers the older ways things are done, and fears the new technology. I don't want to pigionhole the anti-tech people. There are lots of reasons to be against tech. Moving an NPC's attitude one step towards Hostile is something I'll leave to the DM's discretion, though I will include notes on any group/community that has a strong anti-tech sentiment.


Also, programmable matter: a bunch of tiny spheres that magnetically stick to each other. Imagine, you could have a gun that turned into a thin sticky pad that could be hidden on the inside of your jacket.
Any ideas on how to stat it? Are there any magic/psionic items that can do something that can change shape like that to use as bases?

Zexion
2010-01-24, 01:08 AM
maybe a transform ability as the spell polymorph spell once per round, but can only create shapes that it is programmed to do (maybe you have to buy the form files online?), or be set to fill a space (as a lockpick)?
perhaps 75 gp per one-foot cube. Remote controls can control up to a 10 ft. (10x10x10) cube, and remote controls cost 200 gp?

TabletopNuke
2010-01-25, 05:18 PM
It should probably cost more than that. I'll have to go look through my books for something similar to get an idea of the price.

I know that kind of technology would be very new in Breakdown, not at all commonplace. It might be cheaper in other settings.

Kiren
2010-01-25, 06:46 PM
Most cybernetics are susceptible to EMP (Electro-Magnetic Pulse), Which is why a nuclear explosion fries electronic devices.

TabletopNuke
2010-01-25, 07:24 PM
Any idea what nukes would look like statted out? I'm assuming they'd be equivalent to artifact-level magic items.

Kiren
2010-01-25, 10:58 PM
No clue on how to stat out, although their is plenty of reading material online on how to survive a nuclear blast which tell alot about the effect of a nuclear blast, and the damage it will do.

My opinion *someone correct me if I mess anything up*

Anything within the 'blast area' would be leveled, gone, everyone dead.
Radiation goes farther, direct exposure is lethal.
Radiation levels will remain at lethal levels for at least 2 weeks then it is 'safe' to exit your bunker with proper precautions.
Radiation can go through solid objects, and their are different rays of radiation, you can find online what materials can block it and how much is needed (lead is great).

I haven't read too much on nukes recently and forgot most of what I had know.

TabletopNuke
2010-01-26, 02:05 PM
I just remembered that there's a special material in Drow of the Underdark with similar effects to radiation. I'll have to go take a look at that.

Also, is anyone familiar with the "Locate City bomb"? The devastation that can wreak might be a good starting point.

Yora
2010-01-26, 05:48 PM
My opinion *someone correct me if I mess anything up*

Anything within the 'blast area' would be leveled, gone, everyone dead.
Radiation goes farther, direct exposure is lethal.

During the atomic bombings in Japan, some people were shielded from the blast just by being in the basements of their houses. Still got horribly radiated of course, but if the bomb detonates above ground, the blast does not seem to penetrate very deeply. If it detonates on impact on the ground, it would probably cause massive tremmors, but that would also reduce the air blast radius a lot.

I'd probably statt them as causing 20d6 fire damage and 20d6 bludgeoning damage close to the detonation, and 10d6 at greater distances. But if any objects are not destroyed by the blast, they provide cover for creatures and characters inside them. But it also depends on the power of the nuke. But everyone not protected against massive radiation would be affected by very high irradiation. Using the d20 Future rules for radiation sickness (http://www.d20resources.com/future.d20.srd/environments/radiation.sickness.php), I would say it's a 1 round exposure to a severly radioactive source, and then exposure to a severely radiated area for as long as they remain there.
You could make one with a total blast radius of one mile, but in a sci-fi setting, you could also make much bigger ones with a radius of 10, 20 or 50 miles or 30 to 50d6 of damage.


Most cybernetics are susceptible to EMP (Electro-Magnetic Pulse), Which is why a nuclear explosion fries electronic devices.
I think even fully functional cybernetic arms could be build to not include any long electric cables. Given the size of modern computers, the chip to control the movement of every artifical "muscle" could be very small and simple. And you only need to cables to every small motor in the joints. This may be a web of electric cables to small in size to be actually fried by EMP. A computer not connected to a power outlet is generally considered to be save, and these iclude a lot more cables and circuitry.

For people interested in cybernetics for common people in everyday use, I recommend watching Ghost in the Shell. Anything of Ghost in the Shell. (Except Solid State Society, which retroactively removes all meaning from all the other mangas and animes.)

Zexion
2010-01-26, 09:45 PM
Any idea what nukes would look like statted out? I'm assuming they'd be equivalent to artifact-level magic items.

Just my 2 credits:
In addition to their explosive power, Nukes could do 10d4 Con damage to living beings, -1d4 per two miles away from the explosion.

Zexion
2010-01-26, 09:52 PM
It should probably cost more than that. I'll have to go look through my books for something similar to get an idea of the price.

I know that kind of technology would be very new in Breakdown, not at all commonplace. It might be cheaper in other settings.

You're right. $10,000 for a 1-foot cube, $5,000 for a remote.

TabletopNuke
2010-01-27, 01:38 PM
Oh yeah, that's right! I gotta figure out the currency for Breakdown. Any ideas what I should call it? (Credits is kinda overused)

I think I'll need to adjust the relative value of many goods from how they are presented in the DMG. Modern technology makes many things (especially manufactured goods) much cheaper. In addition, the average person has more wealth, so I guess just about all the NPCs will have more wealth too. Law enforcement means that the PC's probably won't be able to get away with the usual kill/pillage routine, so that shouldn't unbalance the wealth/level progression.

imp_fireball
2010-01-27, 04:37 PM
you could just say the anti-tech believers believe that: people doing things is good, technology taking a place in our lives is bad.

Look up ludites on wiki.

Also a nuke would probably do about 2000 damage in a radius.

Zexion
2010-01-27, 10:03 PM
Currency:
Recognized Oficcial Tender. ROT!
On a more serious note, perhaps a Standard Monetary Unit (slang term: credit).
1 SMU is about equal to one copper piece, but everything is cheaper too, so... the average savings and per-day salaries of 30-40 year olds according to their jobs would be:

Scientist 800,000 SMU +50,000/year
Greater Scientist 5,000,000 SMU +200,000/year SMART SCIENTISTS ARE RICH!
Company Worker 50,000 +5,200/year
Company VIP 15,000,000 +1,000,000/year
Company Owner 480,000,000 +15,000,000/year
To be below the poverty line is to have an income of less than 5,000 SMU/year.

Item Costs:
Manufactured Goods: 1/2-1/4 the cost, as it is cheaper and easier to build that stuff. Different companies sell things differently.
Weapons: depends on the law enforcement of the area. Weapon costs half normal, the bribe for the officials to turn a blind eye may be a hundred times that.
Technology: normal price.
Restricted Technology: normal price + bribe (if you don't have authorization)

Stuff bought on the black market ranges from half the price to ten times that price.
Look good?

TabletopNuke
2010-01-28, 02:46 PM
We'll have to run some comparisons of your suggested wealth vs the Profession skill and suggested NPC wealth in the DMG.

The lowered price of manufactured goods is what I had in mind, too. Any thoughts on how it might alter/potentially unbalance gameplay? My feeling is that since people won't be carrying around big hoards of coins, the larger amount of goods and items PCs will get by defeating enemies will help balance that.

I think I wanna do something like the GP system's 100 CP = 10 GP = 1 PP kinda thing. Just two levels of wealth might be okay, since it's probably more portable than coins, so the consolidated wealth of platinum isn't that important.

No credits! They always do credits! :smalltongue:

Since this form of wealth is works for all of Earth, I'm thinking "universal currency" "uni or UC for short." The smaller amount of currency could be "decicurrency" or "DC". 1 UC would equal 1 GP, and 1 DC would equal 1 CP. (Names are hard to come up with! We gotta keep working on that.)

Earth's government regulates everything, especially weapons and potentially dangerous technology. Bribing officials isn't a good method for getting contraband (the government has a lot of mind readers and such, not that the average person knows that). The black market functions under lots of mind blank, nondetection and similar protection. Everything on the black market costs a lot more due to all the work that goes into protecting it.

I think this might actually work out well for weapons, as far as pricing/balance goes. Manufacturing things is cheaper, but concealing them is costly, so the price is only a little more (1.5x the cost? 2x?) than stated in the PH. This will also encourage the PC's to make their own things.

I'm also going to be using identification/traveler's papers (passports) like Eberron. People with supernatural powers usually get fake IDs, so they don't get found out by the government.

Zexion
2010-01-28, 08:12 PM
UCC:
Univercal Currency Card:
Why don't they just have a credit card? Simple and effective. The only "coin" currently in use is a government-issued ID coin that has mind-control or something (IE, changes law-abiding citizen's attitude to Helpful).
Using your idea:

Sample Costs
GM AC Chicken*: 1 DC
Laborer's Daily Salary: 6 DC
Auto Cook Activator:* 10 DC
10x10x10 Apartment: 1000 DC
1x1x1 cube of Micromeld:** 100,000 UC
Nuclear Bomb: 10,000,000 UC

* AC mean Auto Cooked, and is sold in a metal wrap that can be opened with a Auto Cook Activator. When the metal wrap is opened, the food automatically makes a skill check to cook itself, with a Cook modifier of +30.
** Micromeld is my name for the programmable matter thing.

Anonymouswizard
2010-01-29, 10:40 AM
UCC:
Universal Currency Card:
Why don't they just have a credit card? Simple and effective. The only "coin" currently in use is a government-issued ID coin that has mind-control or something (IE, changes law-abiding citizen's attitude to Helpful).
Using your idea:

Sample Costs
GM AC Chicken*: 1 DC
Laborer's Daily Salary: 6 DC
Auto Cook Activator:* 10 DC
10x10x10 Apartment: 1000 DC
1x1x1 cube of Micromeld:** 100,000 UC
Nuclear Bomb: 10,000,000 UC

* AC mean Auto Cooked, and is sold in a metal wrap that can be opened with a Auto Cook Activator. When the metal wrap is opened, the food automatically makes a skill check to cook itself, with a Cook modifier of +30.
** Micromeld is my name for the programmable matter thing.

That makes it a good idea for credits: credits are virtual money equal to $10/$100 that are used by the wealthy, the only reason they have value is because the rich cannot be bothered to carry around lots of notes. PCs will rarely have cards, making them rely on money.

Exchange for credits: UCU (universal currency unit), dollars, pounds, or anything else you can come up with. I know, call it Bob.

TabletopNuke
2010-01-29, 08:57 PM
UCC:
Univercal Currency Card:
Why don't they just have a credit card? Simple and effective. The only "coin" currently in use is a government-issued ID coin that has mind-control or something (IE, changes law-abiding citizen's attitude to Helpful).

I assumed there would be credit cards, but we'd still need a name for the currency.

Mind-control coin? I'm intrigued, please elaborate.


GM AC Chicken*: 1 DC
Laborer's Daily Salary: 6 DC
Auto Cook Activator:* 10 DC
10x10x10 Apartment: 1000 DC
1x1x1 cube of Micromeld:** 100,000 UC
Nuclear Bomb: 10,000,000 UC

* AC mean Auto Cooked, and is sold in a metal wrap that can be opened with a Auto Cook Activator. When the metal wrap is opened, the food automatically makes a skill check to cook itself, with a Cook modifier of +30.
** Micromeld is my name for the programmable matter thing.

Woah now, that's getting a little far ahead in terms of technological advancement. Breakdown isn't that far into the future.


That makes it a good idea for credits: credits are virtual money equal to $10/$100 that are used by the wealthy, the only reason they have value is because the rich cannot be bothered to carry around lots of notes. PCs will rarely have cards, making them rely on money.

I plan for typical human society to be pretty similar to what it is now. People will have credit cards, but carry around cash for small transactions, vending machines, and such. I thought there should be a different name for the currency, since Earth has united into one government and probably switched over to something universal (kinda like the euro).


Exchange for credits: UCU (universal currency unit), dollars, pounds, or anything else you can come up with. I know, call it Bob.

Why is Bob the default name whenever people don't have any ideas? (Allegedly) My dad insisted I be called Bob before my parents found out I was a girl. Apparently my ultrasound tape is labeled "Bob".

Zexion
2010-01-31, 04:36 PM
GICCD: Government Issued Citezen Cooperation Disk
Gives a bonus to a Diplomacy check of +5 (police), +10 (government officer), or +20 (special pperations). This bonus only applies if all of the following conditions are present:
1. A government official is using the disk.
2. The user of the disk is of a higher government rank than the target of the Diplomacy check
3. The target of the assisted Diplomacy check is both able to see the disk and able to hear the government official speaking.

TabletopNuke
2010-01-31, 06:00 PM
One thing I'm really having a hard time with is D&D mechanics for the internet. Any suggestions?

Zexion
2010-02-01, 10:06 PM
One thing I'm really having a hard time with is D&D mechanics for the internet. Any suggestions?

Database
Can be ranked from Class 1-20.
1-4: high school database
5-8: university database
9-12 city records, high-quality university database
13-16 government information
17-20 "Classified Data" (special operations)
21-40 species empire database (i.e., everything the species has ever known)
40+ collective consciousness and memories of a civilization in digital form (although I don't think that is the campaign)
The Internet is a Class 16 has a bonus to the following equal to half your Use Technological Device check plus your character level, to a maximum of the database level (16):
Intelligence-based skills, Gather Information
The above process takes half an hour of research, minus one minute/1 above 16.
So, if Nigel (a level 8 fighter) was accessing the internet and rolled a 16 on his Use Technological Device check (no other modifier), if he added his character level he would have a result of 24. 24-16=8. 30-8=22. It takes 22 minutes, and he receives a +16 bonus to the skill he specified before making the check.

TabletopNuke
2010-02-01, 11:59 PM
That sounds awesome! We'll have to run some tests for balance, though. (I have no idea how do to it, LOL!)

How did you come up with that mechanic?

Zexion
2010-02-02, 12:18 AM
Um... no idea. I just thought that information requires other information to work out, so it should be a bonus to the check, not an automatic success. Than I thought that the internet is somewhat like a database, and... yeah. My thought processes ran all over the place.
Might want to work out a Concentration check to resist playing video games though... (THAT WOULD BE THE COOLEST FLAW EVER: GAMER)

Zexion
2010-02-02, 12:19 AM
Oh, and if you are a higher-level character, you can usually pin down exactly what you are looking for. Hence, the bonus.

imp_fireball
2010-02-02, 01:13 AM
I plan for typical human society to be pretty similar to what it is now. People will have credit cards, but carry around cash for small transactions, vending machines, and such. I thought there should be a different name for the currency, since Earth has united into one government and probably switched over to something universal (kinda like the euro).

That seems rather inconvenient. Countries would argue for retaining their unit of currency. Also, the rich would argue to keep it because that way they could still make money working the foreign exchange market.

It also depends what kind of government it is though. If it's say, socialist in any way (except that it cares about the economy, heh), it might force other countries to switch over to its new unit (in addition to the cost of printing up new money or even sanctioning its digitization... which in itself costs money, even though its digital).

I don't know if anybody asked this: Did you want breakdown to be realistic in any way (despite the 'soft' supernatural elements)?


Database
Can be ranked from Class 1-20.
1-4: high school database
5-8: university database
9-12 city records, high-quality university database
13-16 government information
17-20 "Classified Data" (special operations)
21-40 species empire database (i.e., everything the species has ever known)
40+ collective consciousness and memories of a civilization in digital form (although I don't think that is the campaign)
The Internet is a Class 16 has a bonus to the following equal to half your Use Technological Device check plus your character level, to a maximum of the database level (16):
Intelligence-based skills, Gather Information
The above process takes half an hour of research, minus one minute/1 above 16.
So, if Nigel (a level 16 fighter) was accessing the internet and rolled a 16 on his Use Technological Device check (no other modifier), if he added his character level he would have a result of 24. 24-16=8. 30-8=22. It takes 22 minutes, and he receives a +16 bonus to the skill he specified before making the check.

So wait... does longer research add more of a bonus (or make the DC lower, like crafting), and shorter less of a bonus?

Using the internet would largely replace gather information - although, if you are a running a spy campaign, you could take the snow crash route - where dudes walk around with computers strapped to their backs, taking in literally every bit of information in finite detail - also other stuff that is 'difficult to discover, even in the future', like sleeper agents, suicide bombers, etc.

I wouldn't suggest removing gather information, though. It'll just fall into the list of less commonly used skills already present in D&D (like perform (instrument); why perform an instrument when you can just sing and get the same results?), and come in handy once in a while (always good to give the GM extra tricks to pull on the players, like 'you gotta use gather information' since researching the net would take too long or whatever).


But everyone not protected against massive radiation would be affected by very high irradiation. Using the d20 Future rules for radiation sickness, I would say it's a 1 round exposure to a severly radioactive source, and then exposure to a severely radiated area for as long as they remain there.

What about mutations and radioactive zombies? Wisdom damage? Intelligence damage? Birth defected children? Some radiation should be so severe that it can penetrate lead and require more than a DC 24 fortitude save (otherwise any high fort epic level guy would just wade through naked like rambo or somebody... not that they wouldn't do that at mild levels). :smallamused:


Just my 2 credits:
In addition to their explosive power, Nukes could do 10d4 Con damage to living beings, -1d4 per two miles away from the explosion.

Don't forget wind storms (there's rules for that in the SRD). The damage itself would obviously be fire/bludgeoning + more bludgeoning for windstorm + radiation after-exposure. Also, the physical terrain and environment would be altered drastically, but that's up to the GM (like how a meteor swarm cast by a wizard might alter an environment).


Might want to work out a Concentration check to resist playing video games though... (THAT WOULD BE THE COOLEST FLAW EVER: GAMER)


First things first dood.

But call it 'video game addict' for the more PC among us. :smallamused:

Zexion
2010-02-02, 08:58 PM
So wait... does longer research add more of a bonus (or make the DC lower, like crafting), and shorter less of a bonus?

No. If you get a high enough roll, you perform the research quickly and efficiently. So, one minute less for every 1 point by which you exceed the Database Class of the information you are accessing.
Maybe ten minutes more work=+1 to the bonus. Maybe.

Zexion
2010-02-02, 09:00 PM
But everyone not protected against massive radiation would be affected by very high irradiation. Using the d20 Future rules for radiation sickness, I would say it's a 1 round exposure to a severly radioactive source, and then exposure to a severely radiated area for as long as they remain there.
What about mutations and radioactive zombies? Wisdom damage? Intelligence damage? Birth defected children? Some radiation should be so severe that it can penetrate lead and require more than a DC 24 fortitude save (otherwise any high fort epic level guy would just wade through naked like rambo or somebody... not that they wouldn't do that at mild levels).

Perhaps a normal Fortitute save, but instead of rolling 1d20, you roll 1d4, then add your Fortitude modifiers.

TabletopNuke
2010-02-02, 10:40 PM
My thought processes ran all over the place.
Might want to work out a Concentration check to resist playing video games though
I had that exact thought earlier today. I just got an XBox 360 (I know I'm behind the times) and I keep looking at the clock and saying "oh, 10 more minutes".


That seems rather inconvenient. Countries would argue for retaining their unit of currency. Also, the rich would argue to keep it because that way they could still make money working the foreign exchange market.

It also depends what kind of government it is though. If it's say, socialist in any way (except that it cares about the economy, heh), it might force other countries to switch over to its new unit (in addition to the cost of printing up new money or even sanctioning its digitization... which in itself costs money, even though its digital).

Realizing that humanity is not alone and there may be extradimentional creatures beyond human comprehension ("invasion, oh no!") will do wonders for getting people to put aside their differences..

I was thinking the united government would be socialist. It would keep things regulated better. Also, the free healthcare means that they have a prime opportunity to screen everyone for supernatural powers annually.


I don't know if anybody asked this: Did you want breakdown to be realistic in any way (despite the 'soft' supernatural elements)?
Yes! Breakdown is my attempt at a deconsructor fleet (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DeconstructorFleet). I'm aiming to deconstruct (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Deconstruction) everything I can think of. Even the characters I'm making for the setting will be deconstructions of common character tropes. I'm trying to write sci-fi/fantasy as it might actually happen (if that makes sense).

For example, the government knows that some people spontaneously develop strange powers like telepathy, telekinesis, or teleportation. Being able to teleport voids most security methods. Telepathy means that your thoughts are no longer private, or even your own. Telekinesis can be far more dangerous than a gun, and certainly harder to regulate. The government's not going to let these people run around in spandex suits "fighting crime". They're going to monitor these people, hopefully employ them. Letting the paranormal run rampant wouldn't just be bad for the people in charge, it would be a major threat to everyone. Think about pretty much any Marvel or DC comic (except Watchmen, which is a deconstruction of superhero comics). They don't often linger on all the nameless people who get killed by anti-human mutants or poisoned with Joker Venom.


Using the internet would largely replace gather information - although, if you are a running a spy campaign, you could take the snow crash route - where dudes walk around with computers strapped to their backs, taking in literally every bit of information in finite detail - also other stuff that is 'difficult to discover, even in the future', like sleeper agents, suicide bombers, etc.

I wouldn't suggest removing gather information, though. It'll just fall into the list of less commonly used skills already present in D&D (like perform (instrument); why perform an instrument when you can just sing and get the same results?), and come in handy once in a while (always good to give the GM extra tricks to pull on the players, like 'you gotta use gather information' since researching the net would take too long or whatever).

I agree about keeping Gather Information. Even now, people still investigate by infiltrating/questioning groups. The 'net doesn't document everything that goes on, and some information is kept off the net for security reasons. Gather Information could also be used to find information in chat rooms.

What about mutations and radioactive zombies? Wisdom damage? Intelligence damage? Birth defected children? Some radiation should be so severe that it can penetrate lead and require more than a DC 24 fortitude save (otherwise any high fort epic level guy would just wade through naked like rambo or somebody... not that they wouldn't do that at mild levels). :smallamused:[/QUOTE]

Radiation doesn't penetrate lead, as far as I know. Ever gotten an x-ray? They put that lead-lined blanket on whatever part of you isn't being x-ray'd to block extra radiation. Nuclear fallout might be another story, though.

As far as radiation sickness goes, this sounds like a good place to start from:
Drow of the Underdark has a sidebar detailing a substance called "darklight ore". It's radiation causes Con damage and something like mummy rot (not supernatural, doesn't reduce victim to dust, overcome by neutralize poison). A caster level check is necessary to cast a healing spell on the victim.

In Breakdown, radiation isn't having the drastic effects on Earth (or the rest of the multicosm) that extradimentional rifts are. Rift zones cause all kinds of mutations, madness, and weird environmental effects. (see the picture/description here (http://pencil-of-sketching.deviantart.com)./art/Empty-City-150926027))

Kiren
2010-02-02, 11:17 PM
(Wouldn't gamer be a trait, not a flaw. You are well versed in tactics and combat (not to mention you know the rules of D&D).


Edit: A cool idea that had popped into my head. Probably more unimplementable in DnD then my previous surgery mechanics.

A Spec. Ops Psionic Swat Squad of 4 or 5, in perfect synchronization during combat, knowing the bullet count of their allies, any friendlies that are susceptible to enemy fire and operate all together as one. Lets say one with a Riot Shield, blocking bullets and taking enemies out with a pistol, a dead accurate quick aiming sniper, one guy duel wielding sub machine guns with a wall of bullets at the enemies that try to get out of cover, and a combat engineer with a rifle whom adds comic relief with witty one liners.

Partly inspired by MGS4: Guns of the patriots, but at the time I wasn't thinking that.

Not very viable, I just felt like writing something, however if a player levels a city or ruins the campaign, its a realistic alternative to rocks fall and everyone dies.

Zexion
2010-02-02, 11:35 PM
It would be a flaw, i.e. Compulsive Gamer.

TabletopNuke
2010-02-03, 02:13 AM
A Spec. Ops Psionic Swat Squad of 4 or 5, in perfect synchronization during combat, knowing the bullet count of their allies, any friendlies that are susceptible to enemy fire and operate all together as one. Lets say one with a Riot Shield, blocking bullets and taking enemies out with a pistol, a dead accurate quick aiming sniper, one guy duel wielding sub machine guns with a wall of bullets at the enemies that try to get out of cover, and a combat engineer with a rifle whom adds comic relief with witty one liners.

Partly inspired by MGS4: Guns of the patriots, but at the time I wasn't thinking that.

Alright! 'Nother MGS fan! The whole nano team-coordination thing in MGS4 left me tempted to come up with some kind of party-buff effect that would represent the nanite-augmnted teamwork. I have no idea how to make it though. I guess we could use things like the teamwork benefits in PH2, but that's kinda mundane. You got anything?

Kojima would be a SWEET DM. Even though you'd curse his name the whole time.

Kiren
2010-02-03, 05:49 AM
My only idea would be a teamwork class.
Ive seen classes that let 2+ people sync with others players in the class.

I could offer to work something out (but most likely it may not get finished, I still have to finish my surgery project and haven't set any time for that lol)

And he would be an awesome DM, Mid-game cutscenes!

Zexion
2010-02-04, 10:09 PM
Maybe:
An extra bonus when flanking
Being able to flank from further away.
All Assisting bonuses x 3
etc, etc, etc.

lesser_minion
2010-02-04, 11:35 PM
One of the legitimate uses of nanotechnology is customising the human body - such things would generally mean better disease resistance, faster healing and the like, although you could also rebuild a destroyed organ, and ICUs* would become much safer, much more successful, and much more effective.

Access to custom materials - in particular custom smart materials - allows for much fancier technology as well. It might not work as magic, but nanotech would probably be good enough to allow lightweight EVA suits (give characters something to wear over the top though).

Skirts and dresses can feature in a space setting, but they don't really contribute much to modesty on a spacecraft - they'd only ever be worn over the top of something more practical for the sake of fashion.

Technological characters would play very differently to magic users, but they would be competitive - I'd suggest creating a series of tech specialists, although you'd need to figure out what they do that the wizards can't.

You could use nanite to co-ordinate a team, I guess, but you'd have to be careful with it.

Also, I'd avoid 'invisibility suits' - nanotech might be able to make for exceptional camouflage, but active camouflage is a bit over the top.

* Intensive Care units actually 'resurrect' people on a regular basis. There are things we can't fix, but there are a lot of situations where we can 'resurrect' someone by keeping their body functioning for long enough for the body to take over.

TabletopNuke
2010-02-05, 12:24 AM
And he would be an awesome DM, Mid-game cutscenes!

What would that look like?

One though I had for ICU-type things: ICU equipment allows characters to make a Heal check to emulate a healing spell such as ressurection. The DC would be the same as a Use Magic Device check to cast the spell from a scroll (or maybe that DC + 10, if it's too low).

I want to rework the incarnum system into nano-augmentation (or whatever better name we can come up with). Anyone interested in helping?

Kiren
2010-02-05, 05:12 AM
It could be mass effect style holographic armor, hah.

imp_fireball
2010-02-05, 06:59 AM
It could be mass effect style holographic armor, hah.

You mean hard suits with crappy shields? :smallamused:

Also, tech gives bonuses to certain checks and allows checks to become almost supernatural - that's a good idea. ICUs could keep someone alive. People that lose an arm or an eye can grow a new one with some time in a ward.

Even if the brain's been dead, the person can still survive if they've only been out for a few minutes. Get the party surgeon to extract the brain from the guy's decapitated skull, put it in a wet bag and eventually bam, new body (new appearance too, maybe even gender... brain's preserved, so same mental scores and memories, XP, etc.).

Also something like a defrib would offer less options but still give a bonus to revival checks (to make someone who is unconscious and dying but not dead conscious); it's better than pounding on someone and giving CPR.

lesser_minion
2010-02-05, 09:23 AM
Zapping people has a rather specific purpose. It isn't like Battlefield 2.

imp_fireball
2010-02-05, 05:38 PM
Zapping people has a rather specific purpose. It isn't like Battlefield 2.

Well since we're going for realism, you could hurt someone by turning up the shock paddles to full power (fort save or temporary paralysis).

Assume that all other electrical damage severely burns the person rather than interrupts their heart (obviously that would kill them or cause nausea maybe); and yes I know that fire and electrical damage are different types - in reality, they both burn.

Also, this setting feels more like '20 minutes into the future' rather then full out space opera, even though there is spacecraft - I don't imagine there will be capital ships, will there? Unless you wanna pull a 'star gate scenario' where the humans manage alien tech.

Here's an alternative - If the government is fully employing psychic people, the top officials could have 'adjutants' or very powerful telepaths that, with the aid of precise machinery, can read the minds of nearly everyone in the world should an aspect of that person's brain (a few memories or whatever) be traced back to the government (maybe they uploaded something online, or distributed a chip somewhere) be installed in their computer unit. The telepath is so skilled, that they can familiarize that person's neural interconnections and eventually pick up their mind in the real world and thus gain full access to it.

A few hacker groups are trying to avoid government spies at all costs with paranoid encryption protocols, etc. There's no telling how powerful the adjutants could become. They could be reading everyone's mind already! The only problem with actively avoiding the government is that it prompts suspicion from the suits (and that's when they get a black bag over their head, there life changes, etc.).

The government are still the 'good guys' however. Why? Because beyond the void lies even worse terror. The most important motive the leaders of man have decided upon are the preserving of the human psychosis (the adjutants speak of an entire foreign mind scape that would simply bring 'artistic tragedy' should mankind lose itself in it; odd as it sounds, many humans view the human mind as a work of art as well as science).

Adjutant - The adjutant is a telepath of remarkable ability (closest human thing to omnipotent more or less). Already quite potent, the government has mostly aided them on their way however. Even though society condemns the supernatural, a few big wigs managed to nab some psychics in the early stages of the government, before the new constitution was even drafted.

Adjutants cannot move, and are kept alive by feeding tubes. Their minds are split into 'multiple personalities' - the different personalities work simultaneously, constantly browsing the 'mind scape' (their brains are a phenomenon in themselves, able to process billions of threads of information all at once, thus allowing them to focus on a nigh infinite number of tasks at any time), while the others take shifts, being provided virtual reality entertainment. This psychological induction keeps the 'greater whole' mostly sane - at least sane enough to keep the executive personalities doing their jobs at peak performance.

An adjutant appears as a ridiculous jumble of cords and pasty skin (their avatar is of course, more beautiful). Their face is covered with a flat metal mask of tungsten and some other alloys, grafted to their skull to deprive all senses (being able to look upon the real world with the eyes they were born with was seen as 'too much of a distraction'). They are kept in constant stasis between the real and virtual world as well as the dimension of the mind. Their thoughts are funneled into a database for review, diagnosis, as well as communication. The 'handlers' communicate with the adjutant as avatars in virtual reality.

Adjutants aren't dangerous in and of themselves, since they are kept on a leash (it would also take too much energy to deliberately crush an individual's mind from so far away (not to mention unbalancing)... also, being subtle helps). Unhooking them from their machines could cause such a psychic backlash that it would kill them instantly (along with much other machinery and other 'sensitive' individuals via the incredible electromagnetic release).

They are nonetheless feared deities.


Also, the free healthcare means that they have a prime opportunity to screen everyone for supernatural powers annually.

Who says socialism has to have free health care? They could just as easily require 'mandatory bottom level check ups' and then for actual 'health issues' that the individual is concerned about, the person would have to pay. Like I said, they're concerned about the economy. Also control. Control of the citizen via technology (main theme of cyberpunk genre).

Zexion
2010-02-06, 03:45 PM
@imp_fireball: Did you look at my mind-control coin? You might be able to find a use for it.

imp_fireball
2010-02-06, 04:55 PM
@imp_fireball: Did you look at my mind-control coin? You might be able to find a use for it.

Sounds a little forward.

There's supposed to be some people that never met a government official in their lives.

Zexion
2010-02-06, 06:18 PM
Yes, but a with combination of trained charisma and subtle brainwashing... you get the idea.

TabletopNuke
2010-02-08, 09:29 PM
Well since we're going for realism, you could hurt someone by turning up the shock paddles to full power (fort save or temporary paralysis).

Assume that all other electrical damage severely burns the person rather than interrupts their heart (obviously that would kill them or cause nausea maybe); and yes I know that fire and electrical damage are different types - in reality, they both burn.

Yeah, that sounds good.


Also, this setting feels more like '20 minutes into the future' rather then full out space opera, even though there is spacecraft - I don't imagine there will be capital ships, will there? Unless you wanna pull a 'star gate scenario' where the humans manage alien tech.

Yeah, it is a '20 minutes into the future' setting (Earth is, anyway). I guess I should specify that when I call Breakdown a sci-fi setting.

When I say it's got space ships, I mean only marginally better than what we have now. Still very expensive and difficult to use.


Here's an alternative - If the government is fully employing psychic people, the top officials could have 'adjutants' or very powerful telepaths that, with the aid of precise machinery, can read the minds of nearly everyone in the world should an aspect of that person's brain (a few memories or whatever) be traced back to the government (maybe they uploaded something online, or distributed a chip somewhere) be installed in their computer unit. The telepath is so skilled, that they can familiarize that person's neural interconnections and eventually pick up their mind in the real world and thus gain full access to it.

A few hacker groups are trying to avoid government spies at all costs with paranoid encryption protocols, etc. There's no telling how powerful the adjutants could become. They could be reading everyone's mind already! The only problem with actively avoiding the government is that it prompts suspicion from the suits (and that's when they get a black bag over their head, there life changes, etc.).

The government are still the 'good guys' however. Why? Because beyond the void lies even worse terror. The most important motive the leaders of man have decided upon are the preserving of the human psychosis (the adjutants speak of an entire foreign mind scape that would simply bring 'artistic tragedy' should mankind lose itself in it; odd as it sounds, many humans view the human mind as a work of art as well as science).

Adjutant - The adjutant is a telepath of remarkable ability (closest human thing to omnipotent more or less). Already quite potent, the government has mostly aided them on their way however. Even though society condemns the supernatural, a few big wigs managed to nab some psychics in the early stages of the government, before the new constitution was even drafted.

Adjutants cannot move, and are kept alive by feeding tubes. Their minds are split into 'multiple personalities' - the different personalities work simultaneously, constantly browsing the 'mind scape' (their brains are a phenomenon in themselves, able to process billions of threads of information all at once, thus allowing them to focus on a nigh infinite number of tasks at any time), while the others take shifts, being provided virtual reality entertainment. This psychological induction keeps the 'greater whole' mostly sane - at least sane enough to keep the executive personalities doing their jobs at peak performance.

An adjutant appears as a ridiculous jumble of cords and pasty skin (their avatar is of course, more beautiful). Their face is covered with a flat metal mask of tungsten and some other alloys, grafted to their skull to deprive all senses (being able to look upon the real world with the eyes they were born with was seen as 'too much of a distraction'). They are kept in constant stasis between the real and virtual world as well as the dimension of the mind. Their thoughts are funneled into a database for review, diagnosis, as well as communication. The 'handlers' communicate with the adjutant as avatars in virtual reality.

Adjutants aren't dangerous in and of themselves, since they are kept on a leash (it would also take too much energy to deliberately crush an individual's mind from so far away (not to mention unbalancing)... also, being subtle helps). Unhooking them from their machines could cause such a psychic backlash that it would kill them instantly (along with much other machinery and other 'sensitive' individuals via the incredible electromagnetic release).

Dang! That's really impressive, (and totally awesome, too!). Where did you come up with these ideas?! I think I'd like to include something like that. I think the adjutants should be formed from the combined minds of many psychics though, rather than singularly powerful ones. (humans aren't at Forgotten Realms levels of power)

The human species on it's own has no supernatural potential. Those with innate supernatural ability are "tainted" with extradimensional energy. The occurrence of that kind of power is rare and unpredictable. The overwhelming majority of government-employed "paras" (paranormals) are psibers (based on EPH's elans). Psibers have cybernetic implants that grant them the spark of psychic ability necessary to take psionic classes.


Who says socialism has to have free health care? They could just as easily require 'mandatory bottom level check ups' and then for actual 'health issues' that the individual is concerned about, the person would have to pay. Like I said, they're concerned about the economy. Also control. Control of the citizen via technology (main theme of cyberpunk genre).

I think I'll make it kinda like an insurance company. Everyone gets free check ups and regular health care (vaccinations, ect). Other medical expenses get a certain amount of coverage by the government.

At the moment, I'm not too keen on an extreme government (but I suppose that could be subject to change if I came across a neat idea for that). The big secret the government keeps is the paranormal stuff, and that's what they really want to keep under control.

imp_fireball
2010-02-08, 11:30 PM
(humans aren't at Forgotten Realms levels of power)

Ah, but genetically/cybernetically modified humans are. Either human is uber expensive and painstakingly high LA to acquire. Of course the adjutants are epic level in power, but they aren't complete do-everything wizards, and they cannot hold their own in combat.

Going with a whole ton of minds merged together into one body sounds like a good idea, but are you going to include a power that allows that (maybe an epic one)? The alternative is technological means of assisting psionic power, which is probably what the government uses (since they use the 'psibers'; are psibers naturally psionic in any way or did the cybernetics make them psychic?).


I think I'll make it kinda like an insurance company. Everyone gets free check ups and regular health care (vaccinations, ect). Other medical expenses get a certain amount of coverage by the government.

So that's like Canadian health care. :smalltongue:

Zexion
2010-02-08, 11:44 PM
So that's like Canadian health care.
Hey! Some of my best friends (by which I mean me) are Canadian!

On a more serious note, perhaps some people should start elaborating the parallel dimensions? Some of them have vast resources of information, some others are sorely lacking.
I would personally suggest a little tab in each dimension description that tells what effects a rift to this location would cause (i.e., chilly weather, people become stronger, UV pollution, power outages, extremely powerful psychics, mutant animals, etc, etc, etc)

Zexion
2010-02-08, 11:46 PM
Oh, and I love the idea of adjuticants. Omnipotent beings, heh? Kind of like some sort of god-
wait a second: we haven't talked about religion in this world! What about religious conflict between the planes?

Anonymouswizard
2010-02-09, 11:24 AM
For health care: here in Britain the money for the NHS is supposed to come out of everyone's national insurance (so yey, we get free health care. Never got countries that didn't). As for religion, maybe the leaders of religions attempt to use psychics as ways to show God exists. Maybe Jedi see them as their prophets.

imp_fireball
2010-02-10, 04:45 PM
For health care: here in Britain the money for the NHS is supposed to come out of everyone's national insurance (so yey, we get free health care. Never got countries that didn't). As for religion, maybe the leaders of religions attempt to use psychics as ways to show God exists. Maybe Jedi see them as their prophets.

Depends on the religion, as it always does. Remember that many people don't know they exist.

Also I'm not quite sure if Jedi would extend beyond a mere cult 20 minutes into the future.
--------

Here's an idea - A Universal Palm Pilot; an AI of sorts (sentient and talks to you, but doesn't have emotions; only cares about helping the curious) that would function like bardic lore. Failure indicates that the information is not in its database. It gains no bonus from being connected to the internet, simply because searching the net for information takes too long - and it's too difficult for the AI to comprehend what it needs to search for (since it has no emotional desire to find the right thing; to them, it's all just information one way or another) - So humans are better tools for searching the net than robots, unless you're looking for something like keywords (and in real life, you can code a robot to do exactly that).

imp_fireball
2010-02-10, 04:59 PM
Maybe:
An extra bonus when flanking
Being able to flank from further away.
All Assisting bonuses x 3
etc, etc, etc.

I was thinking it could be a bit simpler.

Maybe like a form of hive mind - nobody is flatfooted unless all are caught flatfooted. If one person has line of sight, the other person has line of sight. You could include special abilties, like remarkable fire arm feats - maybe the ability to hit a target from really far away if your using another team mate's eyes as a camera or scope, or ignore concealment if another guy is ignoring concealment (but not cover if your line of effect is barred).

Another would be the ability to ready actions, and alter a readied action as an immediate action while it is being triggered if things don't go as planned - ie. say two in-synch guys ready an action to attack someone when they come through the door. When the actions are triggered, the guy with the highest initiative makes his readied action first, but misses his attack. The other guy, who just now realizes this very microsecond that he should probably run instead of attacking since the attack probably won't get past the enemy's AC, expends an immediate action to correct his readied action - now changing it to 'run away'. Even if this doesn't make sense in regards to how time works and such, psychic connectivity can do wonders for the human mind. :P

Okay, well not simpler.

Anyway, the stuff in the quote doesn't make sense, because flanking and aid another rely on the enemy being distracted. If one person is not adjacent to an enemy, they aren't gonna be distracted by that person unless they're intimidating them or invading their mind or whatever. Doesn't matter if both the person adjacent to him and the other person are in synch.

TabletopNuke
2010-02-10, 09:24 PM
Ah, but genetically/cybernetically modified humans are. Either human is uber expensive and painstakingly high LA to acquire. Of course the adjutants are epic level in power, but they aren't complete do-everything wizards, and they cannot hold their own in combat.

Savage Species has some stuff about magic to apply a template with an LA. I'm gonna take a look at that, and maybe turn it into a kind of tech.


Going with a whole ton of minds merged together into one body sounds like a good idea, but are you going to include a power that allows that (maybe an epic one)? The alternative is technological means of assisting psionic power, which is probably what the government uses (since they use the 'psibers'; are psibers naturally psionic in any way or did the cybernetics make them psychic?).

I think I'll be going with tech. I'm thinking of using the technological equivalent of Eberron's "eldritch machines" (don't remember which book they're on at the moment). This means that such technology is extraordinarily expensive (think building and launching a satellite), one of a kind, and very difficult to construct and operate.

Psibers had no supernatural ability as humans. Potential psibers must have above-average mental capability (Int or Wis scores of 13 or higher), and pass the psychological screening. Most of them also have military training, and therefore some degree of physical competence (11+ in all physical stats). A few of the potential psibers were selected by the virtue of cognitive capability alone, and were able to circumvent the usual athletic standards (Int or Wis of 15 or higher, don't have to meet the physical requirements).


On a more serious note, perhaps some people should start elaborating the parallel dimensions? Some of them have vast resources of information, some others are sorely lacking.
I would personally suggest a little tab in each dimension description that tells what effects a rift to this location would cause (i.e., chilly weather, people become stronger, UV pollution, power outages, extremely powerful psychics, mutant animals, etc, etc, etc)

Would I happen to be "some people"?:smalltongue: I'm still working on the other planes. I don't want to go with the typical "everything resembles Earth to some to degree" thing that most sci-fi/fantasy does. But coming up with a cosmology entirely unlike anything humans have experienced or comprehended is hard!

The Breakdown page (link in signature) has a little bit for "Khyerba", which is a small, bubble-shaped universe centered around a "cold sun" that absorbs heat, rather than producing it. I'm also working on "Thoughtspace", a dimension with no physical presence, only mental (I guess kinda like a cross between the Ethereal plane and the Far Realms). Its inhabitants are beings of psychic presence alone, and often very powerful.


Oh, and I love the idea of adjuticants. Omnipotent beings, heh? Kind of like some sort of god-
wait a second: we haven't talked about religion in this world! What about religious conflict between the planes?

I want to remove the alignment component of DnD for Breakdown. The ideas of "good" and "evil", and even "law" and "chaos" are a matter of perspective, not absolutes or physical forces, or something one can detect with a spell. I'll probably keep character alignment as a guideline for roleplay purposes, but I want to mechanics alignment-free. No detect evil or DR X/Good. No alignment restricted classes. I'd love advice on how to do this without balance problems.

Breakdown won't have deities as presented in standard DnD. There might be extradimensional entities with that level of power, but not actual gods. Divine spellcasting is renamed extrinsic spellcasting, and it's users harness the ambient magic energy around them. Arcane spellcasting is intrinisc spellcasting, and it's users have innate magic ability (though they can't access it as easily as creatures with spell-like abilities).

This certainly doesn't mean there's no religion. It's a matter of personal belief, rather than following an omniscient being or being damned to Hell. Some people believe, or lead others to believe, that their supernatural powers are divine gifts, but in truth, they are not.


Here's an idea[/B] - A Universal Palm Pilot; an AI of sorts (sentient and talks to you, but doesn't have emotions; only cares about helping the curious) that would function like bardic lore. Failure indicates that the information is not in its database. It gains no bonus from being connected to the internet, simply because searching the net for information takes too long - and it's too difficult for the AI to comprehend what it needs to search for (since it has no emotional desire to find the right thing; to them, it's all just information one way or another) - So humans are better tools for searching the net than robots, unless you're looking for something like keywords (and in real life, you can code a robot to do exactly that).

Ooh, that sounds neat. I hadn't considered making that kind of thing work like bardic knowledge.


Maybe like a form of hive mind - nobody is flatfooted unless all are caught flatfooted. If one person has line of sight, the other person has line of sight. You could include special abilties, like remarkable fire arm feats - maybe the ability to hit a target from really far away if your using another team mate's eyes as a camera or scope, or ignore concealment if another guy is ignoring concealment (but not cover if your line of effect is barred).

That sounds great! I think I'll go with that. Some hive-mind creatures in DnD work that way. Any thoughts on what the price of that kind of tech would be (equivalent to a magic item with the same effect).

imp_fireball
2010-02-11, 02:55 AM
Any thoughts on what the price of that kind of tech would be (equivalent to a magic item with the same effect).

I'm not good at pricing magic items, but considering that it is a cyberpunk world, some mundane things would be even cheaper then they were in regular D&D in addition to certain things that were originally difficult to come across (ie., it may be very cheap to start up a farming colony given that genetically enhanced seeds and fertilizer are widely available at any raw produce kiosk; making IEDs can be cheap enough to do at first level, and also recall that simple telescopes cost something like 1000gp in the assumed D&D setting). In other words, it'd have to scale out a bit until you get into the 'rare' or 'military/industrial tech' zone beyond the 'house hold tech'.

Also, players might feel like they have more options with more technology right from first level, so I imagine GMs wouldn't be afraid to challenge the players with what are normally considered CR that outmatches the PCs.

TabletopNuke
2010-02-11, 05:52 PM
I figured that maybe all mundane items could be reduced in price (1/2 price? 3/4?). But I don't want to unbalance the gameplay. If everyone (including enemies) has access to more items, then CR should be good. But obstacles will be easier to overcome.

Zexion
2010-02-11, 11:32 PM
Well, it is the future, after all. Things are supposed to be easier.

imp_fireball
2010-02-13, 02:00 AM
I figured that maybe all mundane items could be reduced in price (1/2 price? 3/4?). But I don't want to unbalance the gameplay. If everyone (including enemies) has access to more items, then CR should be good. But obstacles will be easier to overcome.

That encourages GMs to come up with bigger obstacles.

I've read a few D&D campaigns on these forums and a lot of the obstacles deployed to keep PCs where the GM wants them are simple things like a violent storm, a cliff, etc.

In the modern world, it could be armed goons, government cordoned areas, etc.

Zexion
2010-02-13, 05:27 PM
Has anyone here read The Lab by Jack Heath? Perhaps we could come up with a class based on a genetically enhanced human, similar to 6. They would have abilities like running up walls and ceilings, weight decreased, bonuses to Jump checks, etc, etc, etc.

I've worked out the running up walls and ceilings:

Vertical Dash
When using this ability, the Gene Enhanced Human's base land speed becomes 60 ft, and he can run on any surface that would normally require a climb check, including vertical surfaces, though he must move at least 30 ft per round to avoid falling to the ground on such a surface. This ability can be maintained for a number of rounds equal to one third the Gene Enhanced Human's class levels. When using this ability, the Gene Enhanced Human can also traverse normally impossible surfaces, such as water or thin ice at no penalty.

imp_fireball
2010-02-13, 08:52 PM
Vertical Dash
When using this ability, the Gene Enhanced Human's base land speed becomes 60 ft, and he can run on any surface that would normally require a climb check, including vertical surfaces, though he must move at least 30 ft per round to avoid falling to the ground on such a surface. This ability can be maintained for a number of rounds equal to one third the Gene Enhanced Human's class levels. When using this ability, the Gene Enhanced Human can also traverse normally impossible surfaces, such as water or thin ice at no penalty.

That suggests that with enough acceleration, you can overcome gravity since F = MA.

I think you should stat out sonic the hedgehog before getting too deep. :smallamused:

Also, for classes like the monk - you could base them around transhumanism (and maybe remove the lawful requirement). Also include a variety of specialties they could focus on - such as, speed (which builds upon the monk's already increased movement speed and uses attacks based around that; also powers like lowering gravitational influence on themselves using Ki and slow fall), or strength (which simply raises unarmed damage die progression and gives a few other abilities like bypassing hardness, and knocking people down) or even smaller tactical feats/abilities like grappling (variety of attacks that can be used on a grappled victim; improved grapple starts this tree - creatures that cannot be grappled can still be attacked with 'gravity crush' which occurs whenever a monk fails a grapple at higher levels, uses ki to manipulate gravitons, etc.), and finally psychometabolism (my name for the re-fluffed use of ki and ki based abilities; also grants the diamond body abilities, etc.).

The reason they're still called 'monks' is because their philosophy of transhumanism stems from old buddhist believe (achieve balance in life through augmenting/communicating with the soul) - or european monasticism (intentional isolation - this time, via transhumanism).


For health care: here in Britain the money for the NHS is supposed to come out of everyone's national insurance (so yey, we get free health care. Never got countries that didn't).

You have to understand that it's not actually free though. The government just covers it through taxes. I don't intend to derail the thread.

TabletopNuke
2010-02-13, 09:10 PM
That encourages GMs to come up with bigger obstacles.

I've read a few D&D campaigns on these forums and a lot of the obstacles deployed to keep PCs where the GM wants them are simple things like a violent storm, a cliff, etc.

In the modern world, it could be armed goons, government cordoned areas, etc.
Not just that! There's also extradimensional rifts and mutation-inducing energy leaks.


Has anyone here read The Lab by Jack Heath? Perhaps we could come up with a class based on a genetically enhanced human, similar to 6.

Never heard of The Lab. I am working on genectically engineered humans, though. I've got destroyers and therianthropes up right now (links in Breakdown thread), and more on the way.

I'm also working on hi-tech items. They're going to be based on the magic item system, but XP cost doesn't fit the flavor at all. I'm thinking of ruling that these each of the permanent tech items is powered by a miniature (perpetual motion?) generator, and the cost of said generator is equal to the XP cost x 5. Limited use tech items have a power cell that costs XP cost x 5.

Zexion
2010-02-13, 11:53 PM
Not just that! There's also extradimensional rifts and mutation-inducing energy leaks.

Or an area of "warped space:" if you cross a certain line, your body is wrenched painfully to another point in space or time. Like if you took a human, sawed him painfully in half, and moved one half to another point in space.

Kiren
2010-02-14, 01:33 AM
Remind me to sign up for this playtest lol.

Or another obstacle, mini black hole, imagine the pain of imploding apon youself and being shrunk to the size of a dust. Thats going to ruin someone day.

TabletopNuke
2010-02-14, 05:01 PM
Also, for classes like the monk - you could base them around transhumanism (and maybe remove the lawful requirement). Also include a variety of specialties they could focus on - such as, speed (which builds upon the monk's already increased movement speed and uses attacks based around that; also powers like lowering gravitational influence on themselves using Ki and slow fall), or strength (which simply raises unarmed damage die progression and gives a few other abilities like bypassing hardness, and knocking people down) or even smaller tactical feats/abilities like grappling (variety of attacks that can be used on a grappled victim; improved grapple starts this tree - creatures that cannot be grappled can still be attacked with 'gravity crush' which occurs whenever a monk fails a grapple at higher levels, uses ki to manipulate gravitons, etc.), and finally psychometabolism (my name for the re-fluffed use of ki and ki based abilities; also grants the diamond body abilities, etc.).

The reason they're still called 'monks' is because their philosophy of transhumanism stems from old buddhist believe (achieve balance in life through augmenting/communicating with the soul) - or european monasticism (intentional isolation - this time, via transhumanism).
That sound like a neat idea. The lawful alignment would definitely be removed. I'm not including any alignment restrictions in Breakdown. Would you be interested in making a draft (or even a finished version) of the class?


You have to understand that it's not actually free though. The government just covers it through taxes. I don't intend to derail the thread.
Oh, yeah. I thought that was implied. Sorry I didn't specify it.


Or an area of "warped space:" if you cross a certain line, your body is wrenched painfully to another point in space or time. Like if you took a human, sawed him painfully in half, and moved one half to another point in space.

Ooh, that's a good one. I had just thought of time lapses or small areas of accelerated time. I didn't think of something grisly like that.


Or another obstacle, mini black hole, imagine the pain of imploding apon youself and being shrunk to the size of a dust. Thats going to ruin someone day.
Somebody's gotta figure out mechanics for a black hole!

Anonymouswizard
2010-02-15, 02:22 AM
Somebody's gotta figure out mechanics for a black hole!

Black hole: 20d6 heat damage, 20d6 falling damage when you hit the whatever-its-called layer in the middle.

imp_fireball
2010-02-15, 05:59 AM
Black hole: 20d6 heat damage, 20d6 falling damage when you hit the whatever-its-called layer in the middle.

Make that vacuum damage actually. Or just bludgeoning damage - can still reflect extreme compression. Other properties include immunity to energy damage, incorporeality, the ability to perceive time flowing by really fast, being stilled and silenced and unable to move, etc.

Also consider that reality could no longer be three dimensional in a black hole - a simple rule would be to state that you are essentially incorporeal, are helpless, but no one can move towards you, or see you, etc.

You're pretty much screwed, since even a wizard probably couldn't get out of a black hole unless they had a 'null gravity' or 'gravity protection sphere' spell for themselves cast prior to getting sucked in.

Also, if you are in space, if you don't suffocate or freeze to death, you'll also suffer minor vacuum damage - which comes from depressurization. Also, space doesn't actually make you pop like a balloon I don't think - it's an old myth.

When a black hole appears, creatures within maybe, I don't know a number of miles in radius times its diameter in feet (???), are immediately sucked in as if by teleportation (at a speed greater than warp - it sucks in light and has to overcome the velocity of light remember? At least that's my theory...).

Kiren
2010-02-15, 10:04 PM
Black hole
Get within x amount of squares and you are sucked into the epicenter of the black hole, no save, you are effectively reduced to fine size and considered dead.

Zexion
2010-02-15, 10:05 PM
The diameter in feet ratio is good. It matches up approximately with what Wikipedia tells me.
Using Einsteins theory of relativity, shouldn't some dimensions have time sped up more? I once was the DM to a campaign where the PCs teleport onto another plane. However, in that cosmology time goes at a rate directly proportional to the amount of living beings in the place, and the plane was an empty wasteland. They frantically teleported back, but five thousand years had passed in their own dimension. And so the campaign started.

Kiren
2010-02-15, 10:11 PM
It should also be noted that teleporting can be really problematic in actuality without calculating for error because the earth rotates. For example, teleporting a couple of feet can land you in Africa, (I'm not sure how drastic a drift ,that is just to give an idea of how it works)

Zexion
2010-02-15, 10:15 PM
Also, missing your destination (which is presumably above ground) by 100 ft. has a 30% chance to put you at least 60 ft. underground.
And don't even try to teleport into an underground cave...

lesser_minion
2010-02-15, 10:45 PM
Also, if you are in space, if you don't suffocate or freeze to death, you'll also suffer minor vacuum damage - which comes from depressurization. Also, space doesn't actually make you pop like a balloon I don't think - it's an old myth.

You do not freeze in space! You would pass out in approximately ten seconds, and it might be possible to revive a character who has been out there less than a minute.

Exposure to vacuum just screws with your physiology - it seems like you'd be unable to do much, but you'd suffer a maximum amount of damage pretty quickly. Assistance is required to preserve natural body shape (latex is being considered, because it could potentially do this. Otherwise, you'd need a suit with an atmosphere).

Teleportation is, quite simply, a massive philosophical can of worms. Chucking someone around at superluminal velocities or performing some kind of 'jump' through space-time is acceptable. Matter-replication transportation is not.

Zexion
2010-02-15, 11:54 PM
You do not freeze in space! You would pass out in approximately ten seconds due to rapid deoxygenation of blood. It might be possible to revive a character who has been out there less than a minute.

Exposure to vacuum just screws with your physiology - it seems like you'd be unable to do much, but you'd suffer a maximum amount of damage pretty quickly. Assistance is required to preserve natural body shape.

Teleportation is, quite simply, a massive philosophical can of worms. Chucking someone around at superluminal velocities or performing some kind of 'jump' through space-time is acceptable. Matter-replication transportation is not.

All correct, sane, proofread, checked on Wikipedia, and approved. Thank you for clearing that up (I didn't know all of that)
GO CANADA GO!

imp_fireball
2010-02-16, 06:08 AM
You do not freeze in space!

Well, you're blood would probably solidify. So yah, you'd freeze - not from cold damage but from the adverse weather conditions rule.

I mean, it is really cold in space. Of course, you wouldn't turn into a block of ice, but you'd be shivering like mad in addition to suffocating more or less.


It might be possible to revive a character who has been out there less than a minute.

I actually prefer to go by the rule that anyone who drowns/suffocates falls unconscious, but not at 0 hp - rather, from non-lethal damage. Every round thereafter they begin taking something like 1d6 lethal damage until they reach -10 (and then die).

This is to stay in line with films where the character has partially drowned and passed out and then all it takes is a simple revival, cough out water, done.

Also, maybe if the character can make like a reflex save to hold their breath and plug up the body cavities leading to their lungs to prevent air escaping (nostrils and mouth) then they're allowed to hold their breath normally (or would it be harder, since the air wants to escape even more... actually I think, in that scenario you really would expand and pop like a balloon... nonetheless it'd be hilarious for the GM to allow the character that kind of a 'save or die', character succeeds but dies anyway :smallwink:)?


you are effectively reduced to fine size and considered dead.

IMO, a black hole isn't infinite density (hence, not infinite damage). Just dense enough to overcome every other material thing in our universe.

So, the side effect of you dying from a black hole would reduce you to fine size (or smaller, microscopic levels even; there's labels for sizes beyond the normal table, such as micro and macro; since micro colossal is 1 size smaller than fine, micro fine would be 9 sizes smaller than fine in this case), and probably severely misshape you too.

lesser_minion
2010-02-16, 11:11 AM
Well, you're blood would probably solidify. So yah, you'd freeze - not from cold damage but from the adverse weather conditions rule.

No, your blood remains pressurised while you're in a hard vacuum - it's tissue that deforms.


I mean, it is really cold in space. Of course, you wouldn't turn into a block of ice, but you'd be shivering like mad in addition to suffocating more or less.

Actually, hard vacuum is a perfect insulator, and it prevents convection as well - you might lose some moisture, but you wouldn't drop appreciably in temperature.


Also, maybe if the character can make like a reflex save to hold their breath and plug up the body cavities leading to their lungs to prevent air escaping (nostrils and mouth) then they're allowed to hold their breath normally (or would it be harder, since the air wants to escape even more... actually I think, in that scenario you really would expand and pop like a balloon... nonetheless it'd be hilarious for the GM to allow the character that kind of a 'save or die', character succeeds but dies anyway :smallwink:)?

Holding your breath is the worst thing you can do. Your body just isn't built to cope with that kind of pressure difference.




IMO, a black hole isn't infinite density (hence, not infinite damage). Just dense enough to overcome every other material thing in our universe.

So, the side effect of you dying from a black hole would reduce you to fine size (or smaller, microscopic levels even; there's labels for sizes beyond the normal table, such as micro and macro; since micro colossal is 1 size smaller than fine, micro fine would be 9 sizes smaller than fine in this case), and probably severely misshape you too.

A black hole functions by distorting space and time so that every straight line you draw while close to it points back into the hole.

Black holes also have a lot of mass, but that's not where the "not even light can escape" comes from.

Black holes also spontaneously create particles by a rather odd process.

Ashtagon
2010-02-16, 11:49 AM
Black Holes:

Realistically, any black hole massive enough to have meaningful gravitational effects is also massive enough that it will only exist in deep space (since otherwise, the planet it was found on would already have been sucked in). They should only really be an encounter for starships. Also realistically, any such black hole will be detectable (by its gravity field) long before you enter its danger range.

That said, I can totally, see some kind of "gravity bomb" device that creates the effect of a temporary black hole. It would act similar to a reverse gravity spell, except the focus would be a point instead of "straight up". Anyone actually "sucked in" would probably take "falling" damage (each round once you hit the "centre"), plus be paralysed, affected as if by reduce person (save once each round, cumulative), and rendered "ethereal".

Vacuum:

In practical terms, you can't hold your breath, and any attempt to do so results in burst blood vessels in your nasal passages. But the blood in your bloodstream won't deoxygenate any faster than if you were holding your breath normally. Strictly by game terms, it should be treated as if you had just ran out of breath under the standard suffocation rules. Kinder GMs may allow for the full "hold breath" rules, to allow for more drama time - the standard suffocation rules are really quite lethal.

The low pressure has serious issues for the soft membranous tissues (ears, eyes, nose, and yes, groin), as that is where you will dehydrate rapidly from. Most of these would have no measurable game effect, but perhaps a Fort save each round (DC 5 +1 per cumulative round the eyes or ears are exposed). First failure results in temporary blindness or deafness, second failure making it permanent. Closing eyes, or covering ears with hands can be considered sufficient protection.

The vacuum of course makes hearing tasks absolutely impossible anyway.

The dehydration will irritate eye membranes, and should impose a penalty on Spot and Search skill checks.

The temperature issue is best handled by the existing extreme temperature rules from core. While the temperatures are technically more extreme than tho0se rules expect, vacuum is also an excellent insulator, so it mostly balances out. In a planet's shadow, or in something approximating Earth orbit or farther, using the cold weather rules; closer in, use the hot weather rule.

TabletopNuke
2010-02-16, 09:03 PM
It's great to see so much discussion on this matter!

There are already some matter-destroying effects in core DnD that might be good starting points. The Sphere of Annihilation in basically a dinky black hole (hole in the continuity of the multiverse, instantly destroys anything that touches it [no save]). An umbral blot is a sentient dinky black hole (though it's disintegration has a save). Since the Sphere of Annihilation has no save, and it's 3.5 whereas the umbral blot is 3.0, I'm gonna have to go with "black holes destroy you, no save".

Now that I think about it, who says that modern-day scientists are accurate in their beliefs regarding the nature or black holes? Maybe they are actually massive tears in the Material Plane, and anything that gets sucked into them (mostly just light) is shot into another dimension. Maybe black holes' "exit points" are suns in other dimensions (they do suck up a lot of light). Perhaps our stars are exit points for black holes on other planes, too. Nothing but light has come out of the stars near Earth, but who's to say it's going to stay that way. (That doesn't explain why stars have a gravitational pull, though.)

Some creature types (elementals, undead, constructs) would be unaffected by the vacuum of space. I suppose the temperature might get to (some of) them, though. Air elementals would probably get torn apart by the vacuum (possibly water ones too), and fire elementals might get snuffed out. Earth elementals should fair well enough, though (probably have a hard time getting around, though). Now I envision a colony of earth elemenals inhabiting asteroids. Maybe some asteroids are earth elementals!

lesser_minion
2010-02-16, 09:09 PM
Now that I think about it, who says that modern-day scientists are accurate in their beliefs regarding the nature or black holes? Maybe they are actually massive tears in the Material Plane, and anything that gets sucked into them (mostly just light) is shot into another dimension. Maybe black holes' "exit points" are suns in other dimensions (they do suck up a lot of light). Perhaps our stars are exit points for black holes on other planes, too. Nothing but light has come out of the stars near Earth, but who's to say it's going to stay that way. (That doesn't explain why stars have a gravitational pull, though.)

Black holes were predicted by theories that existed before they were discovered.

It's quite wrong for science to be wrong - when a theory is put forward, people work out what its implications are, and check to see if those things happen.

TabletopNuke
2010-02-16, 09:18 PM
It's quite wrong for science to be wrong - when a theory is put forward, people work out what its implications are, and check to see if those things happen.

Aww. Cross out the "black hole portal" idea, then.

But isn't something called a "theory" if it hasn't been totally proven (proven ones being "laws")?

lesser_minion
2010-02-16, 09:29 PM
Aww. Cross out the "black hole portal" idea, then.

But isn't something called a "theory" if it hasn't been totally proven (proven ones being "laws")?

No.

A law is an observation of something that happens.
A theory is a possible explanation for it.

A theory can be disproved, but it's not likely, and even if it is, some of its predictions will have been confirmed by experiment, and whatever the truth is, there has to be a good reason for that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method

imp_fireball
2010-02-16, 10:05 PM
No, your blood remains pressurised while you're in a hard vacuum - it's tissue that deforms.

But it isn't super insulated is it? And if its really cold in space, then the blood will freeze at some point. Even if that means 'eventually' through convection I'd think. The temperature difference between your body and vacuum is crazy.


Maybe black holes' "exit points" are suns in other dimensions (they do suck up a lot of light).

Lots of photons doesn't create a star - stars are more then just balls of light; also energy never simply collects (unless your Goku and can summon a kao-ken); it travels in omni-directional waves. Energy doesn't create matter. Except matter can create energy if you have matter and anti-matter reacting together.

I'd go with the theory that a star is the result of massive nebula collecting to the point that they begin fusion reactions that gradually build up, etc., until they create a massive ball of plasma and run out of nearby matter to eat up and fuel in order to grow bigger. Eventually, after billions of years, all reactions cease as the star runs out of fuel. By some obscure thermodynamic principle, the star grows as it reaches the end of its days, sheds its extraneous layers and then either remains a dwarf star for another billion or so years or fades completely. Or supernovas somehow, if it's large enough.

Then there's quasar stars which are somehow even more dangerous - I'd have to look that up.


It's great to see so much discussion on this matter!

It's sci-fi. The entire premise is that it is supposed to be more intelligent than fantasy, if all the facts are kept straight (and the hard/soft ratio is well regulated). :smallamused:


(That doesn't explain why stars have a gravitational pull, though.)

There's a million and one things that physics hasn't figured out yet. Like, the origin of gravity and the origin of potential energy.

Kinetic energy, or 'why things move' is arguable - explanations vary from 'the universe has space hence things can travel, simple as that' to 'because mass is a property of something that occupies space, and since matter exists, things can move.'. Kinetic energy is a paradox.


But isn't something called a "theory" if it hasn't been totally proven (proven ones being "laws")?

There's always degrees of proof. Proving general theories (like say, the 'theory of everything' which attempts to sum up the fundamental forces of the universe and string theory and that sorta thing), is generally harder because you have to test them against many many circumstances until the scientific community is satisfied. Also scientists tend to hate one another, because they can rebuke each other on pretty much anything.



That said, I can totally, see some kind of "gravity bomb" device that creates the effect of a temporary black hole. It would act similar to a reverse gravity spell, except the focus would be a point instead of "straight up". Anyone actually "sucked in" would probably take "falling" damage (each round once you hit the "centre"), plus be paralysed, affected as if by reduce person (save once each round, cumulative), and rendered "ethereal".

Too high-tech for humans. Maybe some high LA aliens have that sort of thing.

Also the ethereal condition wouldn't the same as the ethereal description in the SRD - in this case, the person can't be hit because they are pure energy, not because they are projecting themselves upon another plane and viewing the material world through some sort of avatar. Although that would apply to viewing the virtual world of the internet, I'd say.


"Khyerba", which is a small, bubble-shaped universe centered around a "cold sun" that absorbs heat, rather than producing it.

Is the sun powered by freons? :smallamused:

Ashtagon
2010-02-16, 10:10 PM
But it isn't super insulated is it? And if its really cold in space, then the blood will freeze at some point.

Your blood won't freeze, no matter what the local temperature. It will boil away instead (although at these temperatures it would normally be considered evaporation).

Freezing (and boiling) point is a function of local temperature multiplied by local pressure. And while the temperature can vary from rather cold to rather hot, pressure is basically zero. Anything multiplied by zero is basically zero, and that is what the boiling point for your blood and other body fluids will be. This is why membranous tissues (mouth, nose, eyes, ears, anus, and genitals) are so vulnerable to vacuum - fluids will boil away from these areas first, and your body's natural reaction is to divert fluids from other areas to replace these, leading to dehydration of your entire body. An unprotected living creature left in a perfect vacuum for a few hours will be quite dry and rather brittle.

Zexion
2010-02-17, 12:40 AM
The molecules in air elementals would instantly rush away from each other at 1000+ km per hour. The molecules in water elementals would stay approximately the same, albeit in a very spherical shape. Fire elementals would be snuffed out. Earth elementals would be fine.
I have come up with an explanation fro the rifts between the planes:
Quanta have been further destabilized, and are starting to jump between the planes. Sometimes, a quanta splits, but instead of being in two places at once, it is in the same place at once, but in a different time or universe. Stuff gets ****ed up, and boom, there's a mountain where there used to be an office block. YAY SCIENCE!!!

imp_fireball
2010-02-17, 12:44 AM
Quanta have been further destabilized, and are starting to jump between the planes. Sometimes, a quanta splits, but instead of being in two places at once, it is in the same place at once, but in a different time or universe. Stuff gets ****ed up, and boom, there's a mountain where there used to be an office block. YAY SCIENCE!!!

Yah, I don't know 'bout that.

1. It gives further reason for GMs to screw with players unreasonably.

2. You haven't presented any theoretical physics work to back this up.

lesser_minion
2010-02-17, 01:23 AM
a quanta splits

*breaks out grammar nazi knife*. The singular of 'quanta' is 'quantum'.

There is no good reason to work out an explanation for why rifts exist between planes, however.

And if you're using terms that your group can't understand, you're losing out whether they're accurate or not.

Anonymouswizard
2010-02-17, 02:48 AM
I have come up with an explanation fro the rifts between the planes:
Quanta have been further destabilized, and are starting to jump between the planes. Sometimes, a quanta splits, but instead of being in two places at once, it is in the same place at once, but in a different time or universe. Stuff gets ****ed up, and boom, there's a mountain where there used to be an office block. YAY SCIENCE!!!

Here is my idea about your explanation:
The rifts are beyond science.

Yes, my theory is basically that you cannot have a theory.

Ashtagon
2010-02-17, 05:38 AM
The molecules in air elementals would instantly rush away from each other at 1000+ km per hour. The molecules in water elementals would stay approximately the same, albeit in a very spherical shape. Fire elementals would be snuffed out. Earth elementals would be fine.

I can easily imagine elementals of all types having a "magical life force" that would protect their bodies from explosive decompression.

A human-size body of actual mundane water in a perfect vacuum, however, will evaporate to nothing in a few hours at best. The water on the surface would boil away (due to the lack of pressure) until nothing was left. This would also apply to oil-based creatures, or indeed, any fluid.

Zexion
2010-02-17, 11:56 PM
The life force thing might work. Perhaps a series of increasingly difficult Fortitude saves...

TabletopNuke
2010-02-18, 09:19 PM
Forgive any physics/terminology fail on my part. I'm a first-year college student going for an art major. I haven't taken any of the classes yet that would help me with this thread.

Each dimension has it's own physics and natural laws. There's no guarantee that any other given universe follows any of the laws that ours does.


Is the sun powered by freons? :smallamused:
Yes. And there's a big movement among the environmentalists to get it replaced with something "greener", since freon causes ozone depletion. There are also plans to sue the dimension of Khyerba for reparations for environmental damage it's caused from CFC emissions.

Zexion
2010-02-19, 12:12 AM
What are freons?

Ashtagon
2010-02-19, 02:39 AM
Fun physics fact: At 73% of standard atmospheric pressure, water at zero degrees Celsius will boil. This is equivalent to an altitude of 9000 feet.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/air-altitude-pressure-d_462.html

TabletopNuke
2010-02-19, 05:15 PM
What are freons?
It's used in household applications like refrigerants and produces CFCs. There's a lot more too it, of course. Here's the wiki.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorofluorocarbon)

Fun physics fact: At 73% of standard atmospheric pressure, water at zero degrees Celsius will boil. This is equivalent to an altitude of 9000 feet.
Cool! (pun not intended)

I got something that might be relevant to the topic of space exposure. You guys see my preternatural cold thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131987)? You lot probably know more about the effects of extreme cold than I do, and could point out any mistakes. I'd appreciate any help you gave.

Zexion
2010-02-19, 07:21 PM
Sweet mechanic on prenatural cold. Might want to include freezing/shattering temperatures of standard materials.

TabletopNuke
2010-02-20, 06:27 PM
Sweet mechanic on prenatural cold. Might want to include freezing/shattering temperatures of standard materials.

See, that's an area I'm not well-versed in. I'd need the assistance of you physics-pros to get it anywhere near accurate.

Also, thanks for the compliment, Z.

Knaight
2010-02-20, 07:06 PM
That should actually be pretty easy to look up. However, I would also advise looking at a little more in some cases. Most notable glass transition temperature. (http://pslc.ws/mactest/tg.htm)

Alternately, just read everything on this site. (http://pslc.ws/mactest/maindir.htm)

Zexion
2010-02-21, 12:01 AM
Well, you were the first person who commented on my database mechanic, I thought that I owed the same favor.

Kiren
2010-02-21, 12:32 AM
Considering that you are suited up to survive in space (lets say something equivalent to a modern space-suit but lighter, what would the damage be of falling into a planet? Besides death.

Edit: Bonus points if you guess what game I played.

Zexion
2010-02-21, 12:39 AM
Well, if you fell 20,000 kilometers, you would take normal falling damage for falling 20,000 ft, or 2000d6. I mean, gravity will gradually become stronger, so you really only fall at a maximum speed of about 26.7 ft /second, which takes about 2,500 ft. of falling to get to. So, maximum falling damage of 250d6. Perhaps a spacesuit reduces the damage taken to d4s.

Were you playing Opoona (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opoona)? Just a guess. Although many other games have a similar theme.

Kiren
2010-02-21, 12:43 AM
What about the massive amount of heat and pressure/ any other effects that may arise other then becoming a very red hole in the ground.

Edit: Incorrect, the correct answer was Mass Effect 2

Zexion
2010-02-21, 12:44 AM
Well, you would probably burn up before hitting the ground.
That is all for tonight. Logging off.:smallsigh:

Kiren
2010-02-21, 12:47 AM
Big red pile of ash on the ground....

Good night then.

imp_fireball
2010-02-21, 03:03 AM
What are freons?

It was used in refrigerators for a while.

Refrigerators suck in heat and then vent cold air inside the box, allowing refrigeration.

Freons somehow made this work. And yah.


Well, if you fell 20,000 kilometers, you would take normal falling damage for falling 20,000 ft, or 2000d6.

Max falling damage is 20d6. Also, there's a thing called terminal velocity where gravity can't accelerate you beyond the point where the friction of earth atmosphere becomes too much of a barrier.

If you wanted to factor falling through air for 1000 billion feet, then you could take fire damage maybe. But if you had a heat shield (fire resistance such and such), then you might take no damage.

Also a parachute helps too. Or being a decent barbarian above 5th level (where you have beyond 60 hp - average damage for 20d6... I don't like massive damage rules :smallannoyed:). And it makes sense too since in movies powerful dudes survive falls from infinity feet all the time.

Here's a rule

Terminal Velocity - In earth atmosphere and gravity, terminal velocity is achieved after falling at least 200ft. If you fall for say, 1000ft. beyond this, you take 1d6 bludgeoning damage due to friction and then 1d6 bludgeoning damage for each 1000ft. beyond the initial 1000ft. After say, 10,000ft., this damage becomes 1d6 bludgeoning/fire, which applies every 500ft.

So, if you fell 20,000km, you'd take 1d6 bludgeoning damage 10 times, and then 1d6 fire damage 131180 times, for an average of 196739 fire/bludgeoning and 30 bludgeoning damage... but not all at once.

So like, DR 6/- and fire resistance 6 would save you. Then of course there's the 60 damage you get for colliding with the ground (which is enough to break every bone in your body and maybe asplode in real life).

Nonetheless, it's enough damage to burn up pretty much any meteor trying to enter earth's atmosphere - meteors are typical composed of a rocky substance (granting hardness 8 or so - hardness of stone), which makes it immune to bludgeoning damage but the fire damage will slowly wither it away.


Might want to include freezing/shattering temperatures of standard materials.

According to the people above, you need liquid and proper atmosphere to freeze. Breaking a frozen object is a simple mechanic. If you wanna go the direction of frozen solid condition not killing you instantly, then breaking you apart when you are made of ice, might. Or it would just break off the ice surrounding you when the bludgeoning damage doesn't kill you but it's enough damage to break the ice - which seems more fair (I don't like death attacks :smallannoyed:).

Zexion
2010-02-22, 12:06 AM
Nice mechanic. Works well.

TabletopNuke
2010-02-24, 02:37 PM
However, I would also advise looking at a little more in some cases. Most notable glass transition temperature. (http://pslc.ws/mactest/tg.htm)

Alternately, just read everything on this site. (http://pslc.ws/mactest/maindir.htm)

A Cyberwonderland of Polymer Fun?! Erm...I'll go look at the glass transition one. Thanks for the links.


Terminal Velocity - In earth atmosphere and gravity, terminal velocity is achieved after falling at least 200ft. If you fall for say, 1000ft. beyond this, you take 1d6 bludgeoning damage due to friction and then 1d6 bludgeoning damage for each 1000ft. beyond the initial 1000ft. After say, 10,000ft., this damage becomes 1d6 bludgeoning/fire, which applies every 500ft.

So, if you fell 20,000km, you'd take 1d6 bludgeoning damage 10 times, and then 1d6 fire damage 131180 times, for an average of 196739 fire/bludgeoning and 30 bludgeoning damage... but not all at once.

So like, DR 6/- and fire resistance 6 would save you. Then of course there's the 60 damage you get for colliding with the ground (which is enough to break every bone in your body and maybe asplode in real life).
This is really cool. Did you make these rules yourself? We should probably come up with a way of streamlining the house rule for simplicity, though. It's a little complicated and intimidating at the moment.

Why don't you like death attacks and massive damage rules?

Zexion
2010-02-26, 03:42 PM
His mechanic is quite impressive. I do agree.

Ashtagon
2010-02-26, 04:10 PM
Seeing as how we are discussing falling from orbit damage...

http://www.thepiazza.org.uk/bb/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=2545

In simple terms, I made it 1d6 per 10 feet, capped at 60d6 (based on RL physics terminal velocity). Gravity multiples the amount of damage, and dense air pressures will reduce it. Since both gravity and air pressure are basically fixed for any given planet, the maths is reduced to a sentence or two of pre-calculated notes describing the falling damage.

Two examples:

Venus (0.91 g, 93 atm): 1d6 damage per 11 feet (round to 10), capped at 13d6.

Mars (0.377 g, 0.007 atm): 1d6 damage per 27 feet (round to 30), capped at 60d6.

I'm still not entirely happy with the system I came up with though, primarily in the series of saving throws required or available.

Note that I made no attempt to account for heat damage caused by orbital re-entry.

ETA... terminal velocity on Earth for a human body is about 55 m/s, or 1082 feet per 6-second round.

Zexion
2010-02-26, 04:20 PM
You might not like it, but I think that it works rather well. As an extremely seasoned gamer (30+ years) I am pretty sure it covers all the necessary bases. You may wish to include a mechanic for the effects of increased and decreased gravity, however.

Ashtagon
2010-02-26, 05:15 PM
Quick attempt at orbital re-entry damage rules...

The atmosphere on a planet is assumed to begin at the Karman line (330,000 feet on Earth; multiply this altitude by atmospheric density for lower pressures, or by the cube root of atmospheric density for higher pressures). Above this altitude, it is assumed that no damage occurs.

Aside: RL objects can reach speeds far in excess of terminal velocity as they enter the atmosphere, as there is no limit to the amount of acceleration while in the vacuum of space.

A falling object in the atmosphere will descend at 1000 feet per round. On earth, that means it will take 33 minutes to fall through the entire atmosphere.

At terminal velocity, a human will displace the equivalent mass of 800 lb of air (assuming sea level pressures, which won't be the case). If we use the falling objects rule, that would be 4d6 damage. Halve this once for being a "soft landing", and halve it again to account for air being thinner high up. Call in 1d6 bludgeoning damage per round of free fall. This is probably a bit too petty to count though - if you are at all vulnerable to this damage, you'll take plenty more than you are likely to survive at the bottom anyway. And if you are resistant to it, it's not relevant.

Assuming a human hits the atmosphere at terminal velocity (not likely in RL physics, but suitable for game assumptions), thermal effects will raise the temperature to 550 K (277 C, or 530 F). This is hot enough to burn (hair and dry clothing will ignite at about 480 F), but not outstandingly so. The really high temperatures usually found in orbital re-entry physics occur due to the initial high closing velocities. Call the heat damage 1d6 per round, going up to silly high amounts if the initial closing velocity was high. Rough rule of thumb would be 1d6 fire damage per round per 500 m/s of initial closing velocity.


References:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%A1rm%C3%A1n_Line ... The karman line is about 100 km (62 miles) above the Earth's surface. This is the altitude at which the forward velocity an aircraft needs to maintain altitude equals or exceeds escape velocity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_density ... Assuming the "frontage" of a person is 10 square feet and he is falling at terminal velocity (1082 ft/round), he will displace 306 cubic metres of air per round, or about 808 lb of air.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_reentry ...
An approximate rule-of-thumb used by heat shield designers for estimating peak shock layer temperature is to assume the air temperature in kelvins to be equal to the entry speed in meters per second - a mathematical coincidence. For example, a spacecraft entering the atmosphere at 7.8 km/s would experience a peak shock layer temperature of 7800 K. This is unexpected, since the kinetic energy increases with the square of the velocity, and can only occur because the specific heat of the gas increases greatly with temperature (unlike the nearly constant specific heat assumed for solids under ordinary conditions).

Zexion
2010-02-26, 05:20 PM
That is a much better mechanic. I thought the other one was good, but this one covers almost every available base. Good job.

Ashtagon
2010-02-26, 05:37 PM
For orbital re-entry damage, I would use:

No bludgeoning damage - the mass air that you displace isn't really significant enough at high altitudes, and at low altitudes there isn't enough depth of atmosphere for it to be meaningful. Not when compared to the stop at the bottom anyway.

Fire damage: 1d6 fire damage per round, assuming a re-entry velocity of 500 m/s (10,000 feet per round) or less. Multiply the damage dice per round by the initial velocity if re-entry speed is significantly faster. No fire damage is taken for the first 30,000 feet fallen (this simplifies the calculations for typical "fall-from-aircraft" scenarios).

Cold damage: No. Even though air at high altitudes is rather cold, normal environmental damage rules typically only come into effect for situations lasting an hour or more.

Zexion
2010-02-26, 06:02 PM
You would still freeze to death if caught beneath -180 degrees.

Ashtagon
2010-02-26, 06:07 PM
You would still freeze to death if caught beneath -180 degrees.

At that temperature for an extended period, yes. But the timescales involved in falling just aren't long enough to justify a separate calculation for that bit of damage. There's detailed modelling on stuff, and there's playability. At some point you have to sacrifice detailed models in the interest of playability.

Realistically, if you fall fro orbit, it's time to roll up a new character. But that's not fun.

In any case, upper atmosphere temperatures don't actually get that low. The lowest atmospheric temperature is in the mesosphere, at about -100 C (-148 F). At the altitude in question, air density is not high enough to allow for meaningful heat loss. Vacuum is a remarkably good insulator, and 1/1000 air pressure is close enough for this purpose.

Zexion
2010-02-26, 06:21 PM
If you are in space, temperature can reach nearly absolute zero. Human skin freezes at -78 degrees Centigrade. Notice the problem?

lesser_minion
2010-02-26, 06:32 PM
If you are in space, temperature can reach nearly absolute zero. Human skin freezes at -78 degrees Centigrade. Notice the problem?

If it happened at all, it would take a while. Bear in mind that the most important processes by which something cools either don't happen at all or they happen a lot less in a vacuum.

A human being would probably cook after prolonged exposure to space (assuming a latex-style suit that does not meaningfully interfere with perspiration and a supply of oxygen).

Ashtagon
2010-02-26, 06:43 PM
If you are in space, temperature can reach nearly absolute zero. Human skin freezes at -78 degrees Centigrade. Notice the problem?

In Earth orbit, the nominal temperature of an object that is not in shadow is about 394 K (121 C, or 250 F).

http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/Numbers/Math/Mathematical_Thinking/estimating_the_temperature.htm

It's unlikely that a human would lose much heat once left in the shade in outer space though. The two most effective ways to lose heat, convection and conduction, can't happen in outer space. Radiation, the only other method, is far less efficient as a means of heat transfer. It's still a concern, of course, but dangerous heat loss would take far longer than it takes to fall from orbit.

The thermal insulation provided by outer space vacuum also protects that same human from being immediately roasted while directly in sunlight. It's not pleasant, and you won't want to look directly at the sun, but you won't be roasted.

A lot of talk about the specific temperature of a location in outer space becomes meaningless when the density is effectively zero. Reading around, I just read that the medium of inter-galactic space can often be around 10,000 C. Hot enough to vaporise any metal, but so rarefied that no heat will transfer in any meaningful timescale. Temperature is properly a measure of the activity of the molecules present. When there are no molecules, temperature becomes meaningless.

ETA more stuff...

http://arcana.wikidot.com/temperature-of-outer-space

Cosmic background temperature is 3 K.

In Earth orbit, the side of you facing the sun will be at 120 C, the side facing away at -100 C (average 10 C; geothermal and atmospheric greenhouse effects account for the remainder of Earth's mean temperature above that mean). The human body doesn't take those temperatures very well, especially not at the same time. But space is still a good insulator, so yeah. These numbers also depend on the reflectivity of the object. You're going to be a good deal more insulated from those temperatures if you wear white clothing, for example.

Zexion
2010-02-26, 07:57 PM
All true. However, I question the usefulness of discussing how you die in space when all that needs to be known is that if you go into space without oxygen, you will die. Simple.

TabletopNuke
2010-02-26, 08:20 PM
Gah! This stuff is all waaay over my head. I'm so ashamed.

I have a balance question unrelated to environmental condition mechanics.

There are some skill changes I want to make for my "20 minutes in the future" sci-fi/fantasy setting Breakdown setting (link in signature). I believe I've mentioned the new skills; Knowledge (Technology), Techcraft, and Use Technological Device. What classes should they be class skills for? All classes or just ones that "fit" the class theme/preexisting skills.

Also, I was playing with the idea of giving each class 2 more skill points/level, to represent the greater availability of education. Y/N? Potentially unbalancing?

imp_fireball
2010-02-27, 05:03 AM
Gah! This stuff is all waaay over my head. I'm so ashamed.

I have a balance question unrelated to environmental condition mechanics.

There are some skill changes I want to make for my "20 minutes in the future" sci-fi/fantasy setting Breakdown setting (link in signature). I believe I've mentioned the new skills; Knowledge (Technology), Techcraft, and Use Technological Device. What classes should they be class skills for? All classes or just ones that "fit" the class theme/preexisting skills.

Also, I was playing with the idea of giving each class 2 more skill points/level, to represent the greater availability of education. Y/N? Potentially unbalancing?

That's a hard question for me too.

Maybe just classes that suit the theme - so, UTD could fit pretty much everyone except classes like warblade and swordsages (fluff indicates that they like to fight in a specific way; I wanted to make a variant that allowed them both to use ranged weapons and change the disciplines around, with the aid of existing homebrew disciplines on this board, to affect that).

Knowledge and techcraft would suit factotem, rogue, scout, arcanist, etc.

Also, feel free to make room for all of the PRCs that could apply to this setting like the mad spark eccentric (essentially a 'rage mage' that uses rage to increase his intelligence and then falls into something akin to depression after words) - of course a bit of retooling would make it apply to technology instead - he could eschew material costs for 'minor inventions' or whatever appropriates a very quick tech craft/craft (whatever) check (go by the rules for the rogue's accelerated skill usage to help you out here).


All true. However, I question the usefulness of discussing how you die in space when all that needs to be known is that if you go into space without oxygen, you will die. Simple.

And if you hold your head underwater for an hour, you die too.

But its up to the GM to see the numbers ahead of time and then simply declare the PC dead.

I mean, there is suffocation rules after all.

imp_fireball
2010-02-27, 05:28 AM
Why don't you like death attacks and massive damage rules?

Because it's totally anti-climatic when what should realistically occur is a DBZ style confrontation between two higher level characters. Narrowing it down to a game of dice without tactic is silly ("Oh gee, I know that rogues have low will saves, so I'll cast Power Word: Death. Done.". Also massive damage ruins the point of having ridiculously high hp - and if a character can survive so many hits as to warrant say, 700 hp, they should be able to survive larger hits from the uber charger too. Also consider that different species can recover from injury differently - fast healing doesn't help resist massive damage, that I know of.

Wolverine doesn't regenerate lost limbs, and his unbreakable adamantine skeleton is the one thing I know of that allows him to survive being shot in the head. Under massive damage rules, wolverine would actually die. Wolverine never dies!



This is really cool. Did you make these rules yourself? We should probably come up with a way of streamlining the house rule for simplicity, though. It's a little complicated and intimidating at the moment.

Well I think it could be well warranted for the rare situation that this sort of thing actually comes up - WotC obviously never considered every situation that a character could encounter. Their water rules for varying amounts of environmental pressure that apply at different depths is similarly complicated.

Zexion
2010-02-27, 02:25 PM
I think that perhaps people could get six times the skill points at 1st level, but no extra skill points after that. It shows that you can meddle in whatever you want when you are young, but you need to start focusing on things when you become older.

Ashtagon
2010-02-27, 05:21 PM
...Also, I was playing with the idea of giving each class 2 more skill points/level, to represent the greater availability of education. Y/N? Potentially unbalancing?

Rather than give extra skill points, I'd grant all characters in a "modern" setting the equivalent of the Educated feat (all Knowledge skills are class skills). After all, although there is access to better education in a modern setting, that better education is heavily slanted toward academic pursuits.

Alternatively, require that those extra 2 skill points per level must be spent on Knowledge skills (complete with cross-class restrictions where appropriate).

Zexion
2010-02-27, 07:00 PM
Ashtagon does have a point. People are more likely to learn than become physically excellent in a more technologically advanced setting. You could alternatively give everyone a bonus on Knowledge checks equal to their Intelligence (yes, I meant to put that there) plus half their total level.

Kiren
2010-02-28, 12:04 AM
Really through the internet everything that is known can be learned (More or less)

Now the problem with technology is, it is VERY easy to give misinformation, and misinformation travels FAST.

For example, a wikipedia article gets edited, the wikipedia article is then cited in a research paper, someone reads the research paper, the person that reads the research paper is talking to all his friends about this information.

Zexion
2010-02-28, 12:41 AM
Very true. However, it is usually rather obvious whether the information is wrong.

TabletopNuke
2010-02-28, 10:22 PM
Maybe just classes that suit the theme - so, UTD could fit pretty much everyone except classes like warblade and swordsages (fluff indicates that they like to fight in a specific way; I wanted to make a variant that allowed them both to use ranged weapons and change the disciplines around, with the aid of existing homebrew disciplines on this board, to affect that).

Knowledge and techcraft would suit factotem, rogue, scout, arcanist, etc.
Oh man, I haven't even posted about classes in the setting! Thank you for the reminder. I gotta get on that over on the Breakdown thread. I can post the link when I do, then we can discuss this further.


Also, feel free to make room for all of the PRCs that could apply to this setting like the mad spark eccentric (essentially a 'rage mage' that uses rage to increase his intelligence and then falls into something akin to depression after words) - of course a bit of retooling would make it apply to technology instead - he could eschew material costs for 'minor inventions' or whatever appropriates a very quick tech craft/craft (whatever) check (go by the rules for the rogue's accelerated skill usage to help you out here)

Wow! Has this been stated yet? Can I have a link?


Because it's totally anti-climatic when what should realistically occur is a DBZ style confrontation between two higher level characters.Hmm. What's wrong with this sentence? I'll give you a hint.
what should realistically occur is a DBZ style confrontation
what should realistically occur is a DBZ style confrontation

realistically...DBZ
I think something in my brain just popped.

I think that perhaps people could get six times the skill points at 1st level, but no extra skill points after that. It shows that you can meddle in whatever you want when you are young, but you need to start focusing on things when you become older.
That's a neat idea. The main downside I can think of is that would mean a third of those skill points would be spent in skills you can't max out due to the smaller number of points later on. If you wanted to enter a PrC later on with weird skill requirements, this would be okay. However, most players don't plan that far ahead at 1st level. Not to say I'm totally nixing the idea, though.

Rather than give extra skill points, I'd grant all characters in a "modern" setting the equivalent of the Educated feat (all Knowledge skills are class skills). After all, although there is access to better education in a modern setting, that better education is heavily slanted toward academic pursuits.

Alternatively, require that those extra 2 skill points per level must be spent on Knowledge skills (complete with cross-class restrictions where appropriate).
The biggest problem I can see there is that some Knowledge skills have limited access. The government tries to keep all information on the supernatural under wraps (Arcana, Psionics), and even the government scientists don't know that much about the planes yet. Also, academics includes skills other than Knowledge (Craft, Profession, Techcraft, ect). Would ruling that certain skills other than Knowledge can be bought that way be too unwieldy?

Now the problem with technology is, it is VERY easy to give misinformation, and misinformation travels FAST.

For example, a wikipedia article gets edited, the wikipedia article is then cited in a research paper, someone reads the research paper, the person that reads the research paper is talking to all his friends about this information.
That's why I want to include the possibility of misinformation in whatever internet mechanic I come up with.

Also, I don't think you're allowed to use Wikipedia as a source for college and professional papers for that very reason.

Kiren
2010-02-28, 11:29 PM
Wikipedia however is one of the most convenient sources of information. Many others use it, and misinformation will still spread.

Zexion
2010-02-28, 11:31 PM
Very true.
Note to forum-browsers: this is not the place to post your experiences with Wikipedia, however hilarious they may be. I'm not joking here.

TabletopNuke
2010-03-01, 02:59 AM
I've started (just barely) writing up the class specifics for my Breakdown setting.

Ashtagon
2010-03-01, 08:30 AM
The biggest problem I can see there is that some Knowledge skills have limited access. The government tries to keep all information on the supernatural under wraps (Arcana, Psionics), and even the government scientists don't know that much about the planes yet. Also, academics includes skills other than Knowledge (Craft, Profession, Techcraft, ect). Would ruling that certain skills other than Knowledge can be bought that way be too unwieldy?

No problem. Rather than just say "all Knowledge skills, give a specific list of skills that characters in a modern setting should receive as part of standard modern education. Offhand, I'd include:

Concentration (all those school exams...)
Diplomacy (a key skill in job interviews...)
Profession (for when you land that job...)
Perform/any single sub-skill
K/architecture and engineering
K/geography
K/history
K/local
K/nature
K/nobility and royalty
K/religion

If using the skill list from d20 Modern...

Concentration (all those school exams...)
Diplomacy (a key skill in job interviews...)
Profession (for when you land that job...)
Perform/any single sub-skill
K/art
K/behavioural sciences
K/business
K/civics
K/current events
K/earth and life sciences
K/history
K/physical sciences
K/popular culture
K/streetwise
K/technology
K/theology and philosophy
Computer Use (it's pretty fundamental in this day and age)

I based these lists on what you could typically achieve with a decent high-school education. I excluded Craft, because the tasks that a PC might want to use that skill for would typically include tasks far outside the scope of what might be achieved in craft-focused classes in a high school. I also excluded skills that would benefit from school sports, because those skills, had the character not been in a sitting down for all the other classes, could have been far more physically able; school effectively impedes the physical potential of those with a gift for that, by taking time up that could have been spent training. The better techniques available and the smaller time available are assumed to cancel out.

TabletopNuke
2010-03-01, 06:21 PM
That looks like a good idea! I may use that.

I've never played D20 Modern, I'm going to have to take a look at those skills and see what I need to add.

Kiren
2010-03-01, 07:14 PM
Quick thing, for sneaky classes like rogue (maybe ranger...) shouldn't risk leaving DNA evidence. If that is a possibility in this setting.

Zexion
2010-03-01, 11:49 PM
You could always pay to have your telomeres reconstructed to lengthen or shorten cell decay time. Advance it, and you have DNA that would dissolve within a couple of minutes, rendering DNA evidence all but useless.

lesser_minion
2010-03-02, 04:58 AM
Except, you know, for the fact that the nanomachines might take a couple of minutes to start working and would themselves be left behind.

I don't think I'd really want to accelerate the decay of cells within my own body, although I guess if Breakdown's going to have clone insurance anyway, it might be OK.

Remember that there are philosophical and theological issues with clone life insurance and matter-replication teleportation, however.

imp_fireball
2010-03-02, 02:22 PM
After all, although there is access to better education in a modern setting, that better education is heavily slanted toward academic pursuits.

Depends how liberal/conservative the society is too. Sometimes people sponsor electives like arts programs, so a fighter could get perform (xylophone) as a class skill.

I vote to re-rule that the Educated feat allows you to select three new skills as class skills, but from a specific list (not just knowledge, but other things that can generally be taught in an urban environment such as craft which you can learn from a shop class or profession from being an intern, or speak language).

Certain things need to be self-taught (such as swim, jump, tumble, techcraft, Use Technological Device, diplomacy, sense motive, survival, etc.; granted, instruction and trainers help, but are superfluous compared to what post secondary and essential education offer) and they wouldn't apply to the Educated feat.


Quick thing, for sneaky classes like rogue (maybe ranger...) shouldn't risk leaving DNA evidence.

Rogues could get mutating genetic code. Kinda like a rotating IP. They could also make great hackers, what with all their skill points. Decipher script and Use Technological Device should be key skills in hacking/cracking.

Actual programming something ground up is techcraft though.


Except, you know, for the fact that the nanomachines might take a couple of minutes to start working and would themselves be left behind.


It's probably quite simple for them to self destruct - maybe they dissolve in water, or burn away into useless ash?

Note that it's also up to the rogue to acquire all of this stuff - Knowledge (local) helps, as does gather information for the browsing of illicit goods (illegal biological modifications, nanites or what have you).

Sleight of hand might be all you need to smuggle unless you think it takes some other kind of skill to maybe smear items with detection nullifying grease (fools scanners, whether ionic, xray, etc.) or the ability to bare having drugs locked in your stomache.

Ashtagon
2010-03-02, 02:58 PM
I vote to re-rule that the Educated feat allows you to select three new skills as class skills, but from a specific list (not just knowledge, but other things that can generally be taught in an urban environment such as craft which you can learn from a shop class or profession from being an intern, or speak language).

I generally agree with you, but two specific items I would call you out on. Craft, I already justified my reasons for excluding upthread. Basically, the uses a PC would want to use it for are far beyond anything a mainstream high school education focused in that direction would allow for.

Speak Language is the other one you list I have serious issues with. Despite the fact that language skills are taught in classrooms, and sometimes even with some degree of success, the vast majority of classroom-taught language learners are woefully inadequate language learners when compared to traditional societies that are exposed to multiple languages. The vast majority of modern Earth's functionally bilingual or multilingual people are actually found in third world countries, far from the advantages of modern education. Modern education merely makes possible something that would otherwise be altogether absent; it doesn't really boost things above the ordinary defaults.

lesser_minion
2010-03-02, 03:08 PM
It's probably quite simple for them to self destruct - maybe they dissolve in water, or burn away into useless ash?

Erm... neither of those would work. Even a 'self-destructed' nanomachine has a fair chance of leaving a trace (and tonnes of amino acids and no proteins or genetic markers is a dead giveaway as well)

I guess you could be 'nano-modded' to not secrete, but that would probably be both very painful and temporary (unless you naturally don't secrete).

imp_fireball
2010-03-02, 03:30 PM
I don't think I'd really want to accelerate the decay of cells within my own body, although I guess if Breakdown's going to have clone insurance anyway, it might be OK.


Player 1: I used the nanites so that I didn't leave any DNA remember?
GM: Oh yah. Okay, the authorities are clueless. And... *rolls die* congratulations, you now have leprosy!
Player 1: Yes! I mean, darn.
GM: It's okay, you've been paying your insurance premiums right?
Player 1: Do they cover leprosy?
GM: It's clone insurance, so yah.
Player 1: Cool, so -
GM: But your brain isn't good for copying, so you'll be without a brain when you wake up in your new body.
Player 1: Um...
GM: But it's all cool, because now you've got a new quest.
Player 1: Really?
GM: Yah, you've got to get some DNA samples from people smarter then you and then mash them together so that your entrusted doctors can gengineer up a new vat brain for your clone.
Player 1: Oh cool.
*2 hours later*
GM: And... it looks like the transplant was a success. The doctors are charging more than the initial cost though and since you didn't have any deductibles on insurance, they're fronting you a major bill.
Player 1: Diplomacy!
*10 minutes later*
GM: With the final body disposed of, you know still that your clone is safe.
Player 1: Time to call up the mob and get it shipped to my hide out.
*5 minutes later*
GM: You've discerned the surface thoughts of all the goons sent by the mob. Each alibi checks out. Your clone is safe. It'll have +4 Charisma, Wisdom and Intelligence. With your memory databank safely wired with its neural jack, you won't lose any xp or levels from memory loss. With your biometer ticks registering on the monitor, it'll wake up upon your death.
Player 1: Okay, now I wanna kill myself.
GM: What, why?
Player 1: Because my clone is officially better than me. Also, leprosy sucks.
GM: But the two of you aren't technically the same person.
Player 1: Irrelevant!

lesser_minion
2010-03-02, 04:12 PM
GM: But it's all cool, because now you've got a new quest.
Player 1: Really?
GM: Yah, you've got to get some DNA samples from people smarter then you and then mash them together so that your entrusted doctors can gengineer up a new vat brain for your clone.
Player 1: Oh cool.
*2 hours later*
GM: And... it looks like the transplant was a success. The doctors are charging more than the initial cost though and since you didn't have any deductibles on insurance, they're fronting you a major bill.
Player 1: Diplomacy!
*10 minutes later*
GM: With the final body disposed of, you know still that your clone is safe.
Player 1: Time to call up the mob and get it shipped to my hide out.
*5 minutes later*
GM: You've discerned the surface thoughts of all the goons sent by the mob. Each alibi checks out. Your clone is safe. It'll have +4 Charisma, Wisdom and Intelligence. With your memory databank safely wired with its neural jack, you won't lose any xp or levels from memory loss. With your biometer ticks registering on the monitor, it'll wake up upon your death.

Why is the DM handing out all of these stat bonuses and a free 'no loss of XP' here?

In any event, the authorities wouldn't even be stumped if you use DNA-altering nanites. 10% of people don't secrete anything useful anyway. They have to learn to deal with it.

Zexion
2010-03-02, 08:30 PM
Matter-replication teleportation isn't even possible, using Breakdown's standards of time. Think about what happens with a rift. It's less your structure being copied then your structure being ripped from one universe and sewn into another.

ArcanistSupreme
2010-03-02, 10:57 PM
Not sure if this is relevant any longer, but there is a Ring of Hive Mind in the Arms and Equipment Guide to help with your team fighters from a few pages ago. It's 3.0, though, so the pricing and power-level may be way off.

Zexion
2010-03-02, 11:30 PM
Found it:

Ring Of Hive Mind
All creatures wearing a Ring of Hive Mind
that are within a 1 mile area are mentally
connected:
- able to communicate telepathically;
- if any of the wearers are aware of a
dangers, all the wearers are aware of it;
- unless all of the wearers are flanked,
none of the wearers are flanked;
- unless all of the wearers are flat-footed,
none of the wearers are flat-footed.
Cost: 180 gp

We could definitely use the mechanic. Maybe some redesigning. Any thoughts?

lesser_minion
2010-03-03, 09:13 AM
First off, 180gp seems way too cheap.

Secondly, the last element "if one of them is not flat-footed, none of them are"
needs to be reworked. I know it's the standard phrasing, but it needs "against a particular opponent".

ArcanistSupreme
2010-03-03, 04:30 PM
That's because it's 180,000gp, which seems way too expensive.

Question about the planar breaches that give paras their powers: Does the government realize the connection or notice that paras are concentrated in roughly circular areas?

Zexion
2010-03-03, 11:00 PM
I believe that the government notices the fact that the paras are produced in the same spots, but I do not know if they have realized the connection. TabletopNuke? Any thoughts?

TabletopNuke
2010-03-04, 01:23 AM
Thanks, ArcanistSupreme.

Standard rogues train to hijack magic traps and items. Naturally, the sci-fi equivalent is hacking. Whether you need to rig the security cameras to shut off at a certain time, or override the missile launch controls even though you don't know the password, Use Technological Device is the skill to use.

The reason I was thinking of giving extra skill points for any skill (even the physical ones) is the wide array of activities available in modern society. Climb? Join a mountaineering club. Swim? Swim team (I started when I was 4 or 5). Knowledge (Nature)? Subscribe to National Geographic.

Does this sound justified enough for 2 extra skill points at each level? Too powerful? Potentially unbalancing? What if I ruled that only non-supernatural classes provided the bonus (paras are too busy hiding from the feds/learning how to blow things up with their minds)?

On the matter of DNA evidence, I'm a bit rusty on my upcoming technology factoids. Does anyone have any knowledge of semi-plausible technology that could be used to this effect. I'm thinking that the mechanics would be similar to something that provides pass without trace. On that note, would a pass without trace effect fully prevent detection of DNA, or just induce a -20 penalty on whatever check is used to detect it? The way I picture this is Fingerprints = tracks, so an ability that keeps you from being tracked would not necessarily keep you from leaving DNA evidence, though it might make it harder to pick up.

As far as government awareness of the rifts goes, they are aware of them, but don't fully understand their nature. Earth's government (I still haven't decided on a good name) knows that they are tears between dimensions, but I don't think they've sent any actual people through one yet. They do know that the energy leaking in from the rifts causes mutations and the development of paranormal abilities. This is one reason that known rift zones are evacuated as soon as possible.

Sometimes the rifts are hard to detect, though (especially when linked to immaterial dimensions, or ones that are very similar to ours). For examply, rifts linked to Thoughtspace leave no physical indications of their presence. They gradually give way to "mad slums", psychically-saturated regions that induce mental decay over long periods of exposure. Up to 30% of the people who have been living in the area for a several years display sever symptoms of mental illness, particularly hallucinations and delirium. When you take into account that these are the populations that tend to develop produce paras, you start to understand why the government enforces such strict laws regarding supernatural powers.

Of course, the government is working on early detection of phenomena like mad slums. More importantly, they are trying to find out how and why rifts are forming, and how to stop them. That's certainly an epic-level accomplishment, though.

lesser_minion
2010-03-04, 08:24 AM
In general, I think any experience that merits actual skill points should be a lot more hands-on than just watching TV. That's more "natural 20: Hey, you remember this from TV".

Saying that, training in a pretty wide range of activities would be available.

TabletopNuke
2010-03-04, 09:41 PM
I just realized an excellent solution would be to rule that a bunch of skills can be used untrained (Certain Knowledge skills, Use Technological Device, ect).

I didn't read that in any of the suggestions you guys gave, but I might have misread some. Sorry if anyone else suggested it.

ArcanistSupreme
2010-03-04, 09:47 PM
If you do make Use Technological Device usable untrained, then I think you should also make it so only Rogues (or the equivalent) can hack things with a DC over 20, as per the searching for traps rule. Personally, however, I think you need to be really careful with it (i.e.- only allow a limited number of classes access to it) if it is anywhere near the power level of Use Magic Device.

Zexion
2010-03-04, 11:40 PM
Give a bonus to the list of common skills equal to half the number of years the guy spent in school. Simple.

Zexion
2010-03-04, 11:59 PM
Thanks, ArcanistSupreme.

Standard rogues train to hijack magic traps and items. Naturally, the sci-fi equivalent is hacking. Whether you need to rig the security cameras to shut off at a certain time, or override the missile launch controls even though you don't know the password, Use Technological Device is the skill to use.

"override missile launch controls even though you don't know the password..." you do realize that technology doesn't work like that, right?

Kiren
2010-03-05, 02:42 PM
The fact that rogues can only disarm traps of a particularly high level has annoyed me, anyone with enough ranks in the appropriate skill should be able to. Not all hackers can sneak attack people.

Ashtagon
2010-03-05, 02:49 PM
The fact that rogues can only disarm traps of a particularly high level has annoyed me, anyone with enough ranks in the appropriate skill should be able to. Not all hackers can sneak attack people.

Personally, i see the "disarm advanced traps" class feature as something that should have been turned into a feat extension of the skill, kind of like how the ranger's tracking class feature got turned into a feat extension.

Kiren
2010-03-05, 06:09 PM
Theirs always the way more balanced and awesome, scaling feat.

Ill look for one later.

Zexion
2010-03-05, 06:24 PM
I agree: scaling feats are awesome.:smallsmile:

ArcanistSupreme
2010-03-05, 10:04 PM
Feats would also work/be better than what I suggested. I just wanted to make it so any old shmoe couldn't disarm a bomb just because he rolled a 20.

@TabletopNuke: I think that pace without trace would definitely take care of trace amounts of DNA being left behind :smallwink:. If you are using that spell, they won't know it was you by your DNA (though security cameras might still pick you up).

Kiren
2010-03-05, 10:12 PM
Makes perfect sense

Here are 2 examples, these aren't mine

http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Two-Weapon_Fighting_%283.5e_Feat%29

http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Professional_Luddite_%283.5e_Feat%29

Take a look at some of these new feat types, they are alot better of a mechanic.

TabletopNuke
2010-03-06, 12:22 AM
If you do make Use Technological Device usable untrained, then I think you should also make it so only Rogues (or the equivalent) can hack things with a DC over 20, as per the searching for traps rule. Personally, however, I think you need to be really careful with it (i.e.- only allow a limited number of classes access to it) if it is anywhere near the power level of Use Magic Device.

I don't think it will be quite as bad as UMD, if only because of the restrictions of technology. Really though, using it untrained means just adding your Int mod. Odds are you won't be succeeding at anything with a DC of 20 or higher. I'm thinking that hacking ability should come from a feat.


"override missile launch controls even though you don't know the password..." you do realize that technology doesn't work like that, right?

Lol, I should put a disclaimer in my signature: "I apologize in advance for any fail in my posts. I make most of them while sleep-deprived."


Personally, i see the "disarm advanced traps" class feature as something that should have been turned into a feat extension of the skill, kind of like how the ranger's tracking class feature got turned into a feat extension.

A hacking feat is a great idea. I'll have to get on that when I'm not so sleepy.


@TabletopNuke: I think that pace without trace would definitely take care of trace amounts of DNA being left behind :smallwink:. If you are using that spell, they won't know it was you by your DNA (though security cameras might still pick you up).

Okay, I wasn't sure. I'll rule that it covers tracks, fingerprints, and DNA.


Makes perfect sense

Here are 2 examples, these aren't mine

http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Two-Weapon_Fighting_%283.5e_Feat%29

http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Professional_Luddite_%283.5e_Feat%29

Take a look at some of these new feat types, they are alot better of a mechanic.
Yes, they are very nice. If I were to make scaling feats, that would kinda make the WotC feats suck, though. Wouldn't I have to replace all of them?

Zexion
2010-03-06, 12:39 AM
Replacing the feats wouldn't be an issue if there was a standard system for constructing balanced scaling feat chains.

Kiren
2010-03-06, 01:05 PM
http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Races_of_War_%283.5e_Sourcebook%29/Warriors_with_Style#The_Failure_of_Feats

A few good ideas here still,a character's background offers a minor effect and promotes writing a back story, and a better way for rewarding weapon proficiency.

Edit: None of this is mine of course.

Zexion
2010-03-07, 04:49 PM
Pretty good. We still need TabletopNuke's approval, of course.

TabletopNuke
2010-03-07, 10:10 PM
http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Races_of_War_%283.5e_Sourcebook%29/Warriors_with_Style#The_Failure_of_Feats

A few good ideas here still,a character's background offers a minor effect and promotes writing a back story, and a better way for rewarding weapon proficiency.

Edit: None of this is mine of course.

That's a neat idea, and probably a better way of putting it than I had. I'd like to have some sort of method for balancing the benefits, though. I find some of the ones listed there to be unbalanced.

As for the weapon proficiency, I've never been a huge fan of tangible, permanent bonuses gained from a roll. I find that the randomness can be unbalancing (and feel unfair). It also changes the balance of ability score importance. What about making it worth 2 skill points, like a skill trick?

Also, I wanted some EACHing on an important race for Breakdown. Psibers are humans with cybernetic implants that enable them to develop psychic powers. They are created and employed by the government, and all potential psibers go through intensive psych evaluations before they are recruited. I'm basing the psiber mechanics on EPH's elan, but I wasn't sure if the changes I want to make were unbalancing. Here's what I want the psiber stats to look like:

Medium Humanoid (Cybernetic, Human, Psionic)

Base Land Speed: 30 feet.

Naturally Psionic: Psibers gain 2 bonus power points at 1st level. This benefit does not grant them the ability to manifest powers unless they gain that ability through another source, such as levels in a psionic class.

Resistance (Su): Psibers can bolster their mental and physical resilience with psychic energy. As an immediate action, a psiber can spend 1 power point to gain a +4 resistance bonus on saving throws until the beginning of his next action.

Resilience (Su): A psiber can reinforce his body with psionic energy, reducing the severity of injury. As an immediate action, he can reduce the damage he is about to take by 2 hit points for every 1 power point he spends.

Repletion (Su): A psiber can sustain his body on psychic energy alone, eliminating the need for food or water. If he spends 1 power point, a psiber does not need to eat or drink for 24 hours.

Restorative Trance (Su): Psibers do not sleep as humans do. Instead, they enter a psychic trance for 4 hours a day. Resting in this fashion grants a psiber the same benefits as a human gains from 8 hours of sleep. While in this trance, a psiber concentrates on suffusing his flesh with psionic energy, healing and restoring his mind and body.

Self-Destruct (Ex): To prevent the cybernetic technology used to turn humans into psibers from falling into other hands, the psiber implants are designed to self-destruct upon the psiber's death (reduced to -10 hit points or below). This also damages the deceased psiber's brain beyond recovery. As a result, a psiber cannot be raised.

Automatic Languages: English (Common in standard campaigns),

Bonus Languages: Any

Favored Class: At 1st level, a psiber character chooses one of the following as a favored class: Lurk, Psion, Psychic Hunter, Psychic Rogue, or Psychic Warrior. Once chosen, this decision cannot be changed.

Level Adjustment: +0

So I've increased favored class selection and removed the -2 Cha penalty. These changes are balanced by removing the aberration type and making the race unable to raise. Does this sound balanced? Or is it still too powerful?

Zexion
2010-03-07, 11:08 PM
It's basically a human with extra psionic abilities, with no LA. I think there should either be an LA, or a Cha penalty. Possibly a Str or Con penalty as well.

Kiren
2010-03-08, 06:13 AM
Con reduction justified by intense surgeries and procedures
Depending on if the implants improve muscle power, if not str is reduced the same way con can be.
Charisma penalty justified from public fear.

Realistically though a reduction in charisma and con, str is less justified.

Edit: A cool idea would be internal body slots, for implanting implants (mundane or psionic), alien artifacts, a blade that pops out of your arm and retracts leaving no evidence of your attack.

EditEdit: The favored class system is rarely used anyway.

ArcanistSupreme
2010-03-08, 02:34 PM
The inability to be raised is really limiting and doesn't seem to fit. Why can't a true resurrection spell, which can bring somebody back from the dead even if they no longer have a physical body, work on a character whose brain has been destroyed by the implant? Even a raise dead spell should work, provided that most of the body is there. I could see them losing their powers due to the loss of the implant, but preventing them from being raised at all is fairly harsh. I'd recommend replacing this with an attribute penalty.

As for the worries about this just being a human+ with no LA, consider how valuable feats are (which this race does not provide). There is a reason that humans and strongheart halflings are among the most popular +0 LA races.

Kiren
2010-03-08, 04:35 PM
May I suggest the removal of the wizard, sorcerer and cleric (maybe druid). Maybe others. Cybernetic implantees would be way too powerful, a rogue agent could devastate the government. However, lesser re-flavored arcane classes, such as beguilers are justified by different implants and they are easier to keep in check then world obliterating wizards. House rulling removal of epic magic may also be a good idea. (Divine magic I don't find must justification for.)

Zexion
2010-03-08, 04:41 PM
I suppose the loss of a bonus feat does make up for the abilities.

TabletopNuke
2010-03-09, 02:39 PM
Con reduction justified by intense surgeries and procedures
Depending on if the implants improve muscle power, if not str is reduced the same way con can be.
Charisma penalty justified from public fear.
Con sounds like a good possibility if psibers need an ability penalty.

There's no public fear about psibers though, because they are a well-kept secret. I originally intended to use a Cha penalty (this was an earlier version than the one posted), saying that the implants messed with the psibers' nonverbal communication. However, this would restrict their possible roles in the government, which is the main reason I got rid of it.

Which ability score penalty is most flavorful isn't the current issue, though. What I'm more concerned with at the moment is balance. Does the psiber look to powerful, not strong enough, or pretty good?


A cool idea would be internal body slots, for implanting implants (mundane or psionic), alien artifacts, a blade that pops out of your arm and retracts leaving no evidence of your attack.
That is certainly a good option for characters in Breakdown, but that's more in the realm of tech items (similar/identical mechanics to magic items).


The favored class system is rarely used anyway. Would you suggest I remove the favored class system for Breakdown? It would certainly expand character customization (which I'm ALL FOR!). My only concern is balance. I've never played without favored class rules. Does this change sound okay?


The inability to be raised is really limiting and doesn't seem to fit. Why can't a true resurrection spell, which can bring somebody back from the dead even if they no longer have a physical body, work on a character whose brain has been destroyed by the implant? Even a raise dead spell should work, provided that most of the body is there. I could see them losing their powers due to the loss of the implant, but preventing them from being raised at all is fairly harsh. I'd recommend replacing this with an attribute penalty.

As for the worries about this just being a human+ with no LA, consider how valuable feats are (which this race does not provide). There is a reason that humans and strongheart halflings are among the most popular +0 LA races.
Oh, I guess I need to reword it. What I mean to say is that the body is effectively damaged beyond usability for resurrection. You'd need to use something like regeneration, first.


May I suggest the removal of the wizard, sorcerer and cleric (maybe druid). Maybe others. Cybernetic implantees would be way too powerful, a rogue agent could devastate the government. However, lesser re-flavored arcane classes, such as beguilers are justified by different implants and they are easier to keep in check then world obliterating wizards. House rulling removal of epic magic may also be a good idea. (Divine magic I don't find must justification for.)
Humans don't normally have access to spellcasting or psionics in Breakdown. Naturally-occurring magical or psychic capability is very rare, a result of exposure extradimensional energy. Psibers have implants that let them develop psychic powers, but generally not magic. I'm making a list of classes in Breakdown, categorized by how common they are.

Even among the ranks of psibers, the "pure manifesting" classes (psion and wilder) are less common than the less-psionically powerful classes (lurk, psychic hunter, psychic rogue, and psychic warrior).

A single rogue agent would not be as threatening as one would think. In addition to precautionary measures to prevent such actions (maybe a micro-bomb in the implant?), the government has far more firepower than a single agent could muster. The government also has more agents of similar power. The bigger problem would be the security breach (not that any one agent gets access to all the information).

Since divine power doesn't really have a place in Breakdown, I'm planning on replacing the traditional magic flavor (other dimensions have the magic that humans lack) of "arcane" and "divine" with "intrinsic" and "extrinsic". Extrinsic spells draw their power from external sources, whereas intrinsic spells are fueled by the caster’s own magical aura. Extrinsic magic is functionally identical to divine magic, and intrinsic magic is identical to arcane magic. There's more on that here.

Ashtagon
2010-03-09, 03:07 PM
For favoured classes, I'd go all Pathfinder on it, and say you get either 1 hp or 1 skill point (or both?) each time you level in your favoured class.

imp_fireball
2010-03-09, 03:46 PM
I just realized an excellent solution would be to rule that a bunch of skills can be used untrained (Certain Knowledge skills, Use Technological Device, ect).

You could also probably give more class skills to the mundane classes. Even the fighter with his utter lack of skill points.

Kiren
2010-03-09, 07:01 PM
Its not unbalancing to remove favored class, all the favored class system does is give a unnecessary xp penalty. (Unjustified penalty too, since most people will often use abilities from both classes so you never really run out of practice.

Zexion
2010-03-09, 10:07 PM
I agree with Kiren. I've never used the favored class system, never liked it.

TabletopNuke
2010-03-11, 08:32 PM
Okay, no favored class XP penalty it is! That just leaves the question of whether or not to leave the favored class and grant 1 skill point per level when a character takes it. What do you guys think?


You could also probably give more class skills to the mundane classes. Even the fighter with his utter lack of skill points.

I do think expanded skill sets might be in order for some classes, but that alone wouldn't be to helpful for particularly skill-starved classes like the fighter.

Zexion
2010-03-12, 08:54 PM
Extra skill points? Definitely!

TabletopNuke
2010-03-17, 02:35 PM
How does this look?

Favored Class:
Each race has a favored class with which they are particularly well-suited to. When a character gains a level in his favored class, he gains 1 extra skill point. Unlike standard settings, Breakdown characters take no XP penalty for multiclassing.

A race with "any" as a favored class (such as human) gains the extra skill point at every level.


Also, I reworded the psiber's self-destruct feature. Is this easier to understand?

Self-Destruct (Ex): To prevent the cybernetic technology used to turn humans into psibers from falling into other hands, the psiber implants are designed to self-destruct upon the psiber's death (reduced to -10 hit points or below). This also damages the deceased psiber's brain beyond recovery. As a result, a dead psiber is treated as missing parts for the purpose of a raise dead effect. A higher level effect that does not require a complete body, such as resurrection or a similar effect, can still be used on the psiber, though.

Ashtagon
2010-03-17, 03:26 PM
A race with "any" as a favored class (such as human) gains the extra skill point at every level.

I normally set this as:

A race with "any" as a favoured class (such as human) chooses any one class at character creation as his favoured class. This cannot be changed later.

In campaigns that allow for the full plethora of base classes from every Complete xxxx book out there, I'd generally allow most races a menu of three base classes and say they can pick any one of that menu at character creation, and the choice cannot be changed later (short of PHB2-style retraining).

Zexion
2010-03-17, 05:54 PM
I normally set this as:

A race with "any" as a favoured class (such as human) chooses any one class at character creation as his favoured class. This cannot be changed later.

In campaigns that allow for the full plethora of base classes from every Complete xxxx book out there, I'd generally allow most races a menu of three base classes and say they can pick any one of that menu at character creation, and the choice cannot be changed later (short of PHB2-style retraining).
That would usually work, but experience penalties don't really make any sense. So, why not just do away with them to represent the wide education that people who learn in the modern and future education systems get?

Ashtagon
2010-03-17, 06:58 PM
That would usually work, but experience penalties don't really make any sense. So, why not just do away with them to represent the wide education that people who learn in the modern and future education systems get?

I should add that, rather than use the 3E standard of XP penalties for multi-classing, I prefer the PF standard of +1hp or +1 skill point per level in your favoured class. Bennies, not slaps.

Zexion
2010-03-17, 07:21 PM
That would be an excellent modification, and I heartily endorse it.

Kiren
2010-03-17, 08:31 PM
Quick thing, a resurrection spell wouldn't bring back the implants would it?

(And a few internal body slots for a psiber would be missing, if at all that is implemented *My memory is terrible*)

Zexion
2010-03-17, 09:41 PM
That would be funny. Kind of like those aliens that orbit around the planet Rupert from The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy? Memory banks lost, we don't know who we are?

TabletopNuke
2010-03-18, 12:16 AM
Quick thing, a resurrection spell wouldn't bring back the implants would it?
Hmm, that's a good point. I didn't think about that. If being brought back from the dead turned the psiber into a human, they'd lose their psychic powers (that would render a psion useless). That's a pretty harsh drawback. What about some method of rebuilding the implants? Any ideas?

(And a few internal body slots for a psiber would be missing, if at all that is implemented *My memory is terrible*)
Rather than creating new, internal body slots, I was thinking of just going with saying that tech items affect the general portion of the body inside and out. I suppose ruling that psibers' implants take up the head slot could be another balancing factor. If that were the case though, I'd like to make a non-epic feat that allowed them to use such items.

Kiren
2010-03-18, 12:42 PM
It would be awesome to have implants be like items you can wear.

A Psiber's base cybernetics require a full set to work.

Zexion
2010-03-18, 03:44 PM
True Resurrection should bring back a psiber, as should Wish. Wish does everything.

TabletopNuke
2010-03-18, 05:47 PM
A Psiber's base cybernetics require a full set to work.
One would assume so. What kind of spell/effect would you suggest to repair a resurrected psiber's implants?


True Resurrection should bring back a psiber, as should Wish. Wish does everything.
I agree, both of those spells should restore a psiber with their implant (and powers) intact.

Zexion
2010-03-18, 06:54 PM
One would assume so. What kind of spell/effect would you suggest to repair a resurrected psiber's implants?

Perhaps that harm/heal object spell? The one that heals Warforged?

Kiren
2010-03-18, 07:16 PM
Hmmm, self destruct is usually thorough.

Not much short of Nano-technology rebuilding. Chips broken, pieces bent, software absolutely destroyed. So even if rebuilt by "Nano Tech" (Spell) You would need to re-download the necessary software. Try lime wire (Oh dear I seem to have downloaded a virus to my brain)

It has been so long since I have been in a DND game so I am not familiar with much of the spell list.

ArcanistSupreme
2010-03-18, 07:37 PM
The issue is you have an entire set of class abilities relying on one item. If it gets shattered or anything, that psiber is SOL. I think the aforementioned repair line of spells are a good solution that don't force the psiber to go on a ridiculous sidequest to get the chip repaired/replaced every time he dies/suffers some mishap.

Or perhaps it's a biochip, so healing/resurrecting the psiber does the same thing to the chip. Treat it like a graft, so if anyone tries to remove it or analyze it, it self-destructs and becomes worthless.

My goal would be to make it a cool part of the fluff, but not have it be something that could easily get in the way of gameplay. If you want it to be on par with the wizard's spellbook, you'll need to make it easier to repair/replace (via government/black market), even if it is costly. As it is now, a psiber could be irrevocably crippled for an entire adventure after just a couple of rounds of combat (or a surprise round, with the right spells/powers).

Kiren
2010-03-18, 07:45 PM
Unless these implants are partially external, sundering shouldn't be an issue.

IDEA! Blueprints implanted into memories of PSIBER. Ever hear of those 3 dimensional printers. Although I am not quite sure if that is within your idea of this settings tech level.

Zexion
2010-03-18, 08:13 PM
Perhaps psibers have a ultrathin transparent video screen that projects images onto their retinas...

imp_fireball
2010-03-19, 12:50 AM
Perhaps psibers have a ultrathin transparent video screen that projects images onto their retinas...

Maybe the implant should function like another consciousness (only semi-sentient and controlled by psiber's emotions... too dumb to have its own feelings (int 1 or less) but knows what to do at a given point... like when the psiber wants access to information stored in its driver, it gives the information to them, neatly organizes it and everything).

Part of being a psiber could be unlocking the potential in their implant.

Part of being a monk would be unlocking the potential in the human body.

And yah, psiber could have the blueprint already locked in their brain.... thus, they need only have enough ranks in knowledge(science and technology) and then craft (electronics) to make a new implant (give or take a week and a proper environment).

The implant might unlock the psionic potential in the psiber - meaning, that they don't need the implant in order to manifest. The implant merely unlocks a portion of their mind that was determined to exist but couldn't be properly accessed without external help. So losing the implant might result in a few lost levels that could easily be gained back - meaning a few lost power points and powers which can be re-learned. They can't take more levels in psiber or learn new psiber powers without the implant though.

A hacker could store memories on host domains in cyberspace that could be kept alive by servants ('invigorating the memories', too much time without human contact causes the memories and knowledge to be 'de-humanized' and eventually reduced to raw logic that is easily forgotten and incompatible once the mind tries to access it again; thus they need servants to 'massage' them). This could be accomplished with the leadership feat; servants only need to be 1st level and 'deck proficient' (a few ranks in UTD and a deck/neural jack/VR goggles/whatever you wanna use).

Decipher script would cover basic cracking for accessing pockets of a domain in cyberspace. Use Technological Device would be required to transfer knowledge and memories to the domain, so that they can't be lost when the hacker is killed and resurrected later on - they could regain ranks without regaining levels (although that might complicate things; maybe just cover the regaining of feats, powers and such; or even simpler - regain lost XP).

Does any of this sound cool?
------

New Mechanic (of course I'll be including it in my setting too)

Research - Research isn't a skill but something that can be performed given at least a few months of non-adventure. A discovery can be major, minor or epic. Note that the way discoveries are labeled is objective. The first ever radio may not be as useful in a setting, and thus may be labeled as a minor breakthrough, but might otherwise be major in another.

Minor breakthroughs are merely convenient - perhaps you've accidentally discovered a new explosive chemical ingredient?

Example: A pill that makes people smarter, a new coolant, a way to increase helicopter maneuverability. Minor breakthroughs cover a very large list of practicality and could include something as small as a new toothpaste that makes your teeth whiter than before.

A major breakthrough could revolutionize a market for a particular product. It could result in new tactical options, change game play, etc.

Example: Discovering practical application for lasers on the battlefield, teleportation, time travel (but at a cost), process for extraction of alternate fuel source, etc.

An epic breakthrough is usually the result of a major plot niche. It can change the entire setting or turn a story around.

Example: Discover FTL travel, immortality, doomsday device regent, etc. These usually take years or are discarded as impossible, even to optimizers, short of epic level (but only because at epic level, players are assumed to hold sway over the world regardless).

Making a discovery

Making a discovery in a given field requires appropriate ranks in the associated knowledge skill, determined secretly by the GM beforehand. The player can state that they are hoping to discover a given thing, however they won't usually make the discovering they were looking for (the best inventions are accidental ones after all). After that, it's an intelligence check to determine if they can take the knowledge they know and expand upon its field, hoping to figure out something new that the rest of the community hasn't realized or published yet.

Discovering Something Somebody else has already discovered

Perhaps an NPC has already made the discovery? While unfortunate, the player won't likely find out about it until much later. They are likely to know a lot about their field of knowledge, and so the most likely scenario is that the other person who made the discovery either did not get their name out, the discovery wasn't published, or merely quashed in some hidden conspiracy.

Of course, this does not prevent the player from applying the discovery to tech craft checks to design new things.

Research to learn something you didn't know

Sometimes what are trying to discover is so vaguely known that it may be marked as 'undiscovered'. Sometimes the results of research merely mean learning something that may have been learned previously with a successful knowledge check (only the check failed at the time). Other times, the GM might open up a new avenue of originally un-knowable things for the player as a result of their research.

The Knowledge Fields

When performing research, ranks in all fields of knowledge are taken into consideration. The player does not choose which field they'd like to apply their research to, as discovery is accidental - however they are free to notify the GM anyway if they think it will influence the GM's decision later on.

Science and Technology - Knowledge of technological principles, such as electronics, mechanics and physics. Technology is an ideology that focuses on the improvement of life or progress in a given area - essentially the cream of science's crop. The 'science' portion of science and technology denotes knowledge of how science applies to technology. Also, science on a more fundamental level - theories, mathematics, etc.

Nature - The life sciences. Biology and naturally occurring forces in nature. What is lightning? Why can you slide better on ice with skates and not regular shoes? How does a disease proliferate in a living organism?

Architecture and Engineering - How things attach together in order to remain stable under the influence of various gravitational forces.

Geography - Mostly just navigation, but new methods of navigation could be uncovered with geography - ie. navigation upon different planets with different gravitational fields that would affect a compass.

TabletopNuke
2010-03-21, 04:35 PM
Perhaps that harm/heal object spell? The one that heals Warforged?
I'm considering a repair effect.

The issue is you have an entire set of class abilities relying on one item. If it gets shattered or anything, that psiber is SOL. I think the aforementioned repair line of spells are a good solution that don't force the psiber to go on a ridiculous sidequest to get the chip repaired/replaced every time he dies/suffers some mishap.
I don't want to make the implant something that can be independently targeted. It's deep in the brain, so in general, anything that damages the brain damages the implant, and vice-versa.

Or perhaps it's a biochip, so healing/resurrecting the psiber does the same thing to the chip. Treat it like a graft, so if anyone tries to remove it or analyze it, it self-destructs and becomes worthless.
Yeah, I'd been thinking about making it a bio-based implant. I'm considering saying that the implant is primarily a "rewiring" of the subject's brain, based around a tiny core of special extradimensional material. This results in something similar to an extremely localized, controlled extradimensional rift mutation (how anything else on Earth gets supernatural abilities).

My goal would be to make it a cool part of the fluff, but not have it be something that could easily get in the way of gameplay. If you want it to be on par with the wizard's spellbook, you'll need to make it easier to repair/replace (via government/black market), even if it is costly. As it is now, a psiber could be irrevocably crippled for an entire adventure after just a couple of rounds of combat (or a surprise round, with the right spells/powers).
It's not what the psiber "stores" there powers in and I don't want to make it something easily targeted. Partially for those very reasons.

Unless these implants are partially external, sundering shouldn't be an issue.
Won't be a problem. The implants are fully internal. The only external indicator of there presence is a tiny scar on the scalp. This is why psibers have unusually long hair for soldiers.

IDEA! Blueprints implanted into memories of PSIBER. Ever hear of those 3 dimensional printers. Although I am not quite sure if that is within your idea of this settings tech level.
Psibers aren't all that cybernetic, and don't have any uploading/downloading ability. This sounds like a neat idea for full-on cyborgs, though.

And yah, psiber could have the blueprint already locked in their brain.... thus, they need only have enough ranks in knowledge(science and technology) and then craft (electronics) to make a new implant (give or take a week and a proper environment). Implanting that kinda thing into your own brain sounds kinda dangerous. But again, this sounds like a neat idea for actual cyborgs/robots.

The implant might unlock the psionic potential in the psiber - meaning, that they don't need the implant in order to manifest. The implant merely unlocks a portion of their mind that was determined to exist but couldn't be properly accessed without external help. So losing the implant might result in a few lost levels that could easily be gained back - meaning a few lost power points and powers which can be re-learned. They can't take more levels in psiber or learn new psiber powers without the implant though.
Like I've mentioned in Breakdown fluff, humans (or anything else in this universe) have no supernatural potential whatsoever. It's a result of exposure to extradimensional energy.

A hacker could store memories on host domains in cyberspace that could be kept alive by servants ('invigorating the memories', too much time without human contact causes the memories and knowledge to be 'de-humanized' and eventually reduced to raw logic that is easily forgotten and incompatible once the mind tries to access it again; thus they need servants to 'massage' them). This could be accomplished with the leadership feat; servants only need to be 1st level and 'deck proficient' (a few ranks in UTD and a deck/neural jack/VR goggles/whatever you wanna use).

Decipher script would cover basic cracking for accessing pockets of a domain in cyberspace. Use Technological Device would be required to transfer knowledge and memories to the domain, so that they can't be lost when the hacker is killed and resurrected later on - they could regain ranks without regaining levels (although that might complicate things; maybe just cover the regaining of feats, powers and such; or even simpler - regain lost XP).

Does any of this sound cool?
Yes, yes it does sound cool. Man, I've really got to get on the tech effect stuff so I can start figuring out tech items and true cyborgs and all that. You got any ideas?

New Mechanic (of course I'll be including it in my setting too)

Research - Research isn't a skill but something that can be performed given at least a few months of non-adventure. A discovery can be major, minor or epic. Note that the way discoveries are labeled is objective. The first ever radio may not be as useful in a setting, and thus may be labeled as a minor breakthrough, but might otherwise be major in another.

Minor breakthroughs are merely convenient - perhaps you've accidentally discovered a new explosive chemical ingredient?

Example: A pill that makes people smarter, a new coolant, a way to increase helicopter maneuverability. Minor breakthroughs cover a very large list of practicality and could include something as small as a new toothpaste that makes your teeth whiter than before.

A major breakthrough could revolutionize a market for a particular product. It could result in new tactical options, change game play, etc.

Example: Discovering practical application for lasers on the battlefield, teleportation, time travel (but at a cost), process for extraction of alternate fuel source, etc.

An epic breakthrough is usually the result of a major plot niche. It can change the entire setting or turn a story around.

Example: Discover FTL travel, immortality, doomsday device regent, etc. These usually take years or are discarded as impossible, even to optimizers, short of epic level (but only because at epic level, players are assumed to hold sway over the world regardless).

Making a discovery

Making a discovery in a given field requires appropriate ranks in the associated knowledge skill, determined secretly by the GM beforehand. The player can state that they are hoping to discover a given thing, however they won't usually make the discovering they were looking for (the best inventions are accidental ones after all). After that, it's an intelligence check to determine if they can take the knowledge they know and expand upon its field, hoping to figure out something new that the rest of the community hasn't realized or published yet.
This is cool, a really innovative mechanic. I'm not sure about turning breakthroughs like this into a mechanic alone, though. What if a player with a low-Int PC comes up with a sweet idea? I think there should be some flexibility in allowing the DM bend the rules on this.

Thanks a lot for all the suggestions, guys. Keep in mind though, one of the reasons for the psiber's self-destruct thing was balance. Oh, I just got an idea about how to incorporate your suggestions! How's this?:

The implant still self-destructs, requiring a resurrection effect that doesn't need an intact body. The psiber is revived without the intact implant. Since the implant is a kind of "controlled leak" of mutating energy that can turn humans psionic, the psiber retains their old mutation, meaning they keep the psionic abilities they already had. They can't gain new ones until they get another implant. Obtaining said implant won't usually be a problem. The government specialists who make psibers know that there aren't that many people who can successfully adapt and develop these abilities, and they'd like to keep the ones who were able to do it. However, if the psiber is somehow unable to return to the labs, or went AWOL, getting a new implant will be a lot harder. A wish would also restore the implant.

imp_fireball
2010-03-21, 07:03 PM
Implanting that kinda thing into your own brain sounds kinda dangerous.

Implanting anything into your brain sounds kinda dangerous but psibers are the result of experimentation gone wild (and then coordinated when government comes into the picture) - hence why they're 'special' and all.

Anything that's considered safe is likely 'approved' as such by some committee which is only done if mass consumerism is on the line. Basically, that's what happens now.


I'm not sure about turning breakthroughs like this into a mechanic alone, though. What if a player with a low-Int PC comes up with a sweet idea?

It'd be really hard for them to come up with any ideas since their int penalty can be rather extreme on their int check.

Say a certain discovery requires an int check of 22 - it's pretty high up there. Discovering it is gonna take some hard core Thomas Edison perseverance.

It's impossible for anyone with less then 14 int - maybe the ideas are far too complex, the math is too tedious (requires some head work and cross referencing a graphing calculator), etc. The only way anyone with less INT could make that discovery is if someone else uses aid another (someone with higher intelligence mind you - research is different in that regular aid another merely shortens time length and actually aiding in the discovery requires an intelligence check to bypass the DC).

So a person with an int of 6 might only be able to succeed on discoveries with an Int DC of 18 and lower. Thus, some discoveries are just out of reach for some people, no matter how many ranks in knowledge they have.

This is all considering discoveries in the science avenue. Coming with a plan or solving a decades old mystery in heiroglyphics with a puzzle underneath it is again different, which could require int or wis.

IMO, writing poetry, lyrics and composure to a song, a fictional novel, or painting art are not craft checks but profession checks - hence they require wisdom.

Also, none of them are guaranteed to earn money (especially if there's few art critics or people that understand art), so really the profession check would just turn out a piece (it's quality depending on how much gp you would have originally made - then you must diplomacy, bluff, or repute your way into selling it for more) and then you'd have to role play with bidders in order to make your money that way.


I think there should be some flexibility in allowing the DM bend the rules on this.

It's already up to the GM to judge how significant a discovery might be or whether or not it's really all that hard to discover (and others just haven't bothered). Stupid people, while not knowing as much as smart people, would still know different things than smart people.

Kiren
2010-03-21, 07:10 PM
Their must be a HUGE liability wavier for those implants.
Not to mention the small print.

imp_fireball
2010-03-21, 07:20 PM
Their must be a HUGE liability wavier for those implants.
Not to mention the small print.

Governments don't worry about liability. They've got guns.

Corporations don't. Hence, it's their department to worry about drawing up a waiver.

ArcanistSupreme
2010-03-21, 08:04 PM
Governments don't worry about liability. They've got guns.

Plus, doesn't the government basically own psibers? They are just another expendable resource, so if a couple end up "dropping out of the program," that's the price of progress.

TabletopNuke
2010-03-21, 08:24 PM
It'd be really hard for them to come up with any ideas since their int penalty can be rather extreme on their int check.

Say a certain discovery requires an int check of 22 - it's pretty high up there. Discovering it is gonna take some hard core Thomas Edison perseverance.

It's impossible for anyone with less then 14 int - maybe the ideas are far too complex, the math is too tedious (requires some head work and cross referencing a graphing calculator), etc. The only way anyone with less INT could make that discovery is if someone else uses aid another (someone with higher intelligence mind you - research is different in that regular aid another merely shortens time length and actually aiding in the discovery requires an intelligence check to bypass the DC).
I'm speaking from a metagame perspective. What if the player came up with a cool idea, but their character had a low Int? It wouldn't really be fair to make them give the idea to a player with a smarter character.

IMO, writing poetry, lyrics and composure to a song, a fictional novel, or painting art are not craft checks but profession checks - hence they require wisdom.
Lots of artists have terrible judgment. As an artist/writer myself (though not one with bad judgment), I've thought about this before. I've come to the conclusion that art is primarily intellectual, though things like drawing or painting have a Dexterity component as well. My coordination is even worse than usual when I first wake up which makes it unusually hard to draw.

Their must be a HUGE liability wavier for those implants.
Not to mention the small print.
Becoming a psiber is generally something of a calling. People become psibers to make a difference and devote their lives to a cause bigger than themselves. When approached about becoming a psiber (after lots of careful analysis and psychological screening), applicants are informed that they would be making a lifetime commitment (naturally they aren't told exactly what they'll be doing). They would never be able to see their friends and families again, and could never return to a normal life. Applicants are also informed that they may be killed. (I haven't decided the fatality rate of the implants, yet)

People who undergo implantation are declared dead, (casualties of war, if recruited from the military). The first experimental psiber unit was called the "Dead Men's Squad" for this reason. Psiber applicants receive new identities, though they aren't included in public databases, and don't officially exist (think "Men in Black"). Even people who don't develop psychic powers after getting their implants are guaranteed well-paid government jobs (nothing public, naturally) for the rest of their lives.

Because of all this, Psibers are a rare breed. I figure there isn't more that 200 of them.

imp_fireball
2010-03-22, 06:29 PM
I'm speaking from a metagame perspective. What if the player came up with a cool idea, but their character had a low Int? It wouldn't really be fair to make them give the idea to a player with a smarter character.

Depends how 'scientifically complicated' the idea is in the mind of the GM, which also depends on setting.

Setting could depend on something like, say, if players wanted to play aliens from another dimension with better tech than humans in your universe.

And if they have to give the idea to another researcher in order to get it made, that's their problem that they didn't use point buy to give themselves a high int. Also knowledge depends on int too, so higher int always has an advantage. Fact of life. :smalltongue:


Lots of artists have terrible judgment. As an artist/writer myself (though not one with bad judgment), I've thought about this before. I've come to the conclusion that art is primarily intellectual, though things like drawing or painting have a Dexterity component as well. My coordination is even worse than usual when I first wake up which makes it unusually hard to draw.

D&D doesn't get the specifics of the human mind just right, but considering wisdom precludes creativity (which goes hand in hand with imagination, perception and thus visualization), which is pretty much all art is (nothing intellectual whatsoever except drawing technique), I'd say it's wisdom. And all that practice is the result of skill ranks.

I could easily argue that many artists have poor judgement because they're accustomed to spending their time drawing rather then doing other things, like managing their life. :smallamused:

You could be very wise, but dissillusioned as well. If they spent more time doing other things they'd quickly develop reasonable judgement.

Remember yoda from Star Wars episode 6? The little guy was a little cooky - probably from spending all that time as a hermit on Dagobah. But also very wise once he became accustomed to Luke's presence.

And not all wise people are artists either.

I'm just saying if art depends on any attribute, it's wisdom. Those 'poor judgment' artists might have a low wisdom, but are good at art because they spend most of their time focusing on their art (thus overriding any drawbacks of not having high wis; skill ranks, skill focus, that sorta thing).

TabletopNuke
2010-03-27, 01:34 PM
I don't want to make the psiber rules overly complicated. I just wanted to give a small drawback and add flavor (DnD bouillon cubes!). I clarified the Self-Destruct rules. Does this look good? Or should I say that the psiber needs a new implant core to take further levels of psionic classes?

Self-Destruct (Ex): To prevent the cybernetic technology used to turn humans into psibers from falling into other hands, the psiber implants are designed to self-destruct upon the psiber's death (reduced to -10 hit points or below). This also damages the deceased psiber's brain beyond recovery. As a result, a psiber's corpse is treated as missing vital parts of it's body for the purpose of bringing them back from the dead. Therefore, a raise dead spell would be ineffective, but an effect such as resurrection or true resurrection would work.

Zexion
2010-03-27, 01:44 PM
Sweet! That should be a flaw...

imp_fireball
2010-03-27, 05:13 PM
Sweet! That should be a flaw...

Racial flaw. Shouldn't permit taking the regular flaw (otherwise it's a free flaw obviously).


Because of all this, Psibers are a rare breed. I figure there isn't more that 200 of them.

Would be interesting if you had the 'evil corporation' angle competing with the government. Some could have their own psibers that were created with the help of scientists formerly employed by the government - they could take people off the street against their will and then replace them with 'flash clones' which are like mentally retarded duplicates (they'd forge a cover story and maybe reconstruct someone's profile for the sake of deluding their relatives).

Some corporations are large enough to operate outside the bounds of law. This isn't just government guantanamo bay. It's everyday citizens doing evil for a private industry! :belkar:

The government meanwhile controls something like 200 or so psibers, who range in alignment from neutral to good.

Also, you're not considering my adjutant idea? :P

TabletopNuke
2010-03-30, 07:07 PM
Sweet! That should be a flaw...
So does that seem like that flaw, combined with the removal of the aberration type, balances the removal of the -2 Cha penalty?


Would be interesting if you had the 'evil corporation' angle competing with the government. Some could have their own psibers that were created with the help of scientists formerly employed by the government - they could take people off the street against their will and then replace them with 'flash clones' which are like mentally retarded duplicates (they'd forge a cover story and maybe reconstruct someone's profile for the sake of deluding their relatives).

Some corporations are large enough to operate outside the bounds of law. This isn't just government guantanamo bay. It's everyday citizens doing evil for a private industry! :belkar:

The government meanwhile controls something like 200 or so psibers, who range in alignment from neutral to good.

Also, you're not considering my adjutant idea? :P
Thanks for all the great input! You're always so full of ideas.

I don't want to make deliberately evil corporations, but I did actually intend to have some secret organizations doing their own dabbling in the supernatural. No one's gotten their hands on the psiber-creation technology, but they've made their own advances. One group (which I really need a name for) has been working on genetically-engineered soldiers for various purposes. They're actually the group behind the creation of the destroyer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131285) species.

One of the major, and most subtle, influences in Breakdown (Earth anyway) is the various extradimensional creatures of incredible power who have decided to study Earth's sentient inhabitants. They mostly just observe, but they secretly provide the occasional "catalyst" to study the results. I think the denizens of the dimension called Thougtspace are probably the ones who do this the most. They are the ones who secretly gave the creators of the destroyers the technology to do so. Not that any of the scientists are aware of this.

Another secret organization is trying to eliminate the supernatural (I really need a name for this group, too). Their field agents are all cyberneticaly enhanced (all have classes from the nanite system I want to base off Incarnum). They identify and capture people who have developed supernatural powers from rift exposure. This group isn't deliberately malicious, though. They just feel that no one should have these powers, even those who are government employed. They don't go after the psibers, though. That would expose them too much to the government.

A third major organization is the Phoenix Alliance (finally! something I have a name for!), which I have elaborated on on the Breakdown thread, and C/Ped here for your enjoyment. (all VERY WIP)

The Phoenix Alliance:
The Phoenix Alliance is an organization of individuals who believe that society has become corrupted beyond repair. They feel that all of civilization must be destroyed and began anew, an event they refer to as “the Great Rebirth”. Their symbol is a red phoenix rising from a white orb surrounded by a burning corona.

The main body of the Phoenix Alliance is divided into three branches. The Eyes of the Phoenix manages intelligence and espionage. The Talons of the Phoenix is in charge of military strategy and anything that requires force. The Wings of the Phoenix handles medical responsibilities and provides aid to those in need, easing the suffering of the world until the day it can be reborn.

The Phoenix Alliance is a surprisingly widespread organization, counting over 60,000 members spread across nearly every major human city on Earth. Agents don't flaunt their membership, but they take no pains to conceal it either. The true, nihilistic goal of the Alliance is not common knowledge. The occasional "street-preacher" speaking of a "Great Rebirth" as they aid the destitute isn't a terribly uncommon sight. Most people simply shrug them off as religious and nothing more.

The Last Pyre:
An extremist splinter group that split off from the Phoenix Alliance, the Last Pyre retains much of the original dogma, but a slightly different goal. Rather than destroy the world and begin anew, the Last Pyre seeks the permanent unmaking of all existence. Their symbol is similar to that of the Phoenix Alliance, a burning white orb, but lacks the Phoenix rising from the flames.

The members of the Last Pyre believe that rebirth will only lead to the same pain and mistakes as before. This conflict is what led to their split form the Phoenix Alliance. The nonviolent schism left the parent organization only slightly weakened, as the dissenters made up a very small percentage of the Alliance. At the time of it's creation, the Last Pyre consisted of only 2,500 members. However, this number has since increased to nearly 10,000, and continues to grow.
The Phoenix Alliance/Last Pyre is one of the few groups that accepts paras without any complaint or restrictions (other than keeping their powers secret from the public and government).

I also need to further develop the Underground, which is basically a widespread and largely disorganized group in which the only law is to stay below the radar. Naturally, this includes the black market and all types of unsavory characters engaged in illicit jobs, but also includes a considerable number of decent people whose only crime is developing supernatural powers. These people fear being exposed to the government for one reason or another. Some don't want to be pressed into government service or have their powers restricted, others are simply paranoid. The Underground has a large number of back-alley doctors (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BackAlleyDoctor) (finally justifying that trope!). Since legitimate doctors test for supernatural powers, paras who wish to stay hidden must seek out unlicensed medical care.

Government employment doesn't have much to do with alignment, though chaotic is unlikely. I want to reduce the importance of alignment for Breakdown. As a deconstruction, I intend for the setting to have grey and gray morality (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GreyAndGrayMorality). I suppose I'll leave actual character alignment, to provide a bit of an indicator for a character's methods and morals. But I don't want to actually include alignment-dependent mechanics (detect evil, DR x/good, ect). A psiber who works in law enforcement with the intention of bettering the lives of the public might be Lawful Good, even if other people find him to be oppressive and feel he abuses his power.

Rogue psibers usually don't last very long. Hiding from 200 psychics isn't very easy to do, and the newer psiber implants have built-in tracking devices. A few of the original psibers managed to fake their deaths and escape, but they have to spend the rest of their lives on the run, always looking over their shoulders for trouble.

Oh yeah, I think I mentioned in a much earlier post that I like the idea of making the adjutants formed from the combined minds of several psibers (kinda like the concept of the metaconcert power turned up to eleven). The participants' bodies would be hooked up to all kinds of life-support or something to hold them in stasis while their minds combined into one entity. If you have any ideas to expand on this, I'd love to hear them.

Zexion
2010-03-30, 07:55 PM
So does that seem like that flaw, combined with the removal of the aberration type, balances the removal of the -2 Cha penalty?

Yes. I believe it does balance it out.

Kiren
2010-03-30, 10:14 PM
Thesaurus for the win

Suggestions

Group one "Created the destroyers": Ulterior Solutions

No clue for your other group, sorry.

ArcanistSupreme
2010-03-31, 02:38 PM
I don't want to make deliberately evil corporations, but I did actually intend to have some secret organizations doing their own dabbling in the supernatural. No one's gotten their hands on the psiber-creation technology, but they've made their own advances. One group (which I really need a name for) has been working on genetically-engineered soldiers for various purposes. They're actually the group behind the creation of the destroyer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131285) species.

What about the generic "Biotech" or "GeneCo." names? They could also run legitimate/legal research programs for medical purposes as a front to their somewhat questionable super-soldier program.

Zexion
2010-03-31, 06:07 PM
What about the generic "Biotech" or "GeneCo." names? They could also run legitimate/legal research programs for medical purposes as a front to their somewhat questionable super-soldier program.

How about an organization called HighLife, which sells pretty standard products.

TabletopNuke
2010-03-31, 08:18 PM
Yes. I believe it does balance it out.
Excellent! I gotta make a page for psibers once I have more of their fluff refined.

Group one "Created the destroyers": Ulterior Solutions.
LOL. I can see their first meeting "Our company needs a name. Lets see,what's the most suspicious, shady name we can think of?" "Ulterior Solutions?" "Yes! It's genius!" That sounds like something straight out of a Hiimdaisy Metal Gear Solid parody.

What about the generic "Biotech" or "GeneCo." names? They could also run legitimate/legal research programs for medical purposes as a front to their somewhat questionable super-soldier program.
It doesn't seem like good business planning to give your company the blandest name you can think of. Then again, if you want to keep your company's illicit activity below the radar, that's actually a pretty clever idea. They definitely need a front of some kind. Or maybe, the illegal part is actually a much smaller part of the company than their legitimate stuff.

How about an organization called HighLife, which sells pretty standard products.
HighLife sounds like a company that sells hemp-based health products. Making up some companies for the setting with no major role is a good idea for flavor. Thanks!

Let's see, for the genetic engineering company... Contemporary Solutions, CS for short (not as sinister as "Ulterior Solutions", generic enough to not draw extra attention)? They mostly work on gene therapy, which has made them a very successful company. During whatever big war took place 20ish years ago (WWIII? I need lots of help with this part, got nothing right now) CS's predecessor genetically engineered some new species (therianthropes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129330)) for war. Genetically engineering new species has been illegalized since then, and the company was shut down. CS secretly recruited the old company's geneticists and used their technology.

Kiren
2010-03-31, 11:30 PM
Somehow I feel like I need a drill and a scuba suit, must be all the gene therapy talk. Edit: I feel like I want to shoot portals too.....

Suggestions.

World war 3, the way things are going today, either Korea is involved or its a war over resources.

Or maybe "War over resources" is a cover. Some strange artifact super weapon, or Occult hotspots may be an underlying cause, whatever it may be, both sides are hiding something.

Zexion
2010-03-31, 11:35 PM
Somehow I feel like I need a drill and a scuba suit, must be all the gene therapy talk.

Suggestions.

World war 3, the way things are going today, either Korea is involved or its a war over resources.

Or maybe "War over resources" is a cover. Some strange artifact super weapon, Occult hotspots may be an underlying cause

The rifts might be a good reason to go to war as well.

Kiren
2010-03-31, 11:42 PM
Where does CS get its "Test Subjects" anyhow, any strange disappearances?

Zexion
2010-03-31, 11:43 PM
Where does CS get its "Test Subjects" anyhow, any strange disappearances?

The homeless, perhaps? Seems like there might be a lot...

Kiren
2010-03-31, 11:45 PM
Yes, that is likely.

(Will there be any cake?)