Familicide does anyone have a write up?

[Itous]

hi all

i know there were LOADS of posts about this but i am having no luck finding them, does anyone have a write up for the spell (yes i know the spell doesn't exisit) but i am trying to find a copy of a write up someone did, at the time i didn't think my character would be high enough to ever cast it and now with my character gone from level 1 -- > 18 in the last 4 months i am seriously considering finding it and running it past my DM

so if anyone has a copy of it or a write up can they please post it.


thanks very much


Joel aka Itous

[Thanatosia]

You'd need the epic level handbook, and if you have that, it should be pretty easy to work out with your DM what seeds and modifiers it would use to come up with a spellcraft DC for it. That said, the spell as presented is so open ended and powerful that the DC would have to be absolutely monstrous, if the GM even allowed it at all. There are a lot of factors to it that would have to be adhoc adjudications on the part of your GM.

For example, it would probably use the Slay Seed, wich has a base DC of 25, increased by 8 for each additional target. But how do you reflect the potential for infinite targets into the DC? There are no guidelines or even similar effects in the existing epic spells, so the GM would have to come up with something on his own to reflect it. If one of my players tried to craft the spell, i'd probably demand at least a dc equivilent to 100 extra targets for such an effect... wich would right there jack the DC up to 800+, and given that there seems to be no rituals requirements or other mitigations, that means you'd need to be an unimaginably powerful caster to pull it off.

Ultimately, I think Familcide is just outside the range of a caster in any normal campaign or even most outrageous ones, and was only allowed in OOTS by virtue of power of plot.

[Gamerlord]

Epic spells, like cloister, don't actually exist as a sort of spell, you need to research them first.

[Itous]

hmmmm intresting thanks for the feed back you two been very helpful unfortunately i have never used an epic spell and as a result don't know how epic spells work this whole seeds buisness is something i will have to research.

how ever i am thinking wouldn't you use the blood of the intended target and as a result use its magic and soul, i doubt it but maybe there is something to do with blood, maybe the target is the blood line and it works as one target using its own magic to fuel the next attack and spread like that, this would make sense as the dragon "V" from OOTS used wouldn't of had the ability to cast so maybe by using up its remaining spell slots and draining spell like abilities it could fuel the next attack?

just a thought ofr you guys i will research into seeds and stuff, i assume epic spells are written completely diffrent to normal spells?

[AtopTheMountain]

Work on run-on sentences... your posts are rather hard to read.

[Studoku]

I vaguely recall seeing a version based on the contact seed that got the DC down into double figures.

EDIT: I managed to find myself saying this exact same thing, but I couldn't find the spell.

[Forbiddenwar]

I think requiring an intellegent (awakened?) undead creature as the focus, as seen in the comic, might reduce the DC even furthur.
Perhaps limit the targets per level (10 targets per caster level?)

Edit: Nevermind, someone has writen it up here:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107483

[NerfTW]

hmmmm intresting thanks for the feed back you two been very helpful unfortunately i have never used an epic spell and as a result don't know how epic spells work this whole seeds buisness is something i will have to research.

how ever i am thinking wouldn't you use the blood of the intended target and as a result use its magic and soul, i doubt it but maybe there is something to do with blood, maybe the target is the blood line and it works as one target using its own magic to fuel the next attack and spread like that, this would make sense as the dragon "V" from OOTS used wouldn't of had the ability to cast so maybe by using up its remaining spell slots and draining spell like abilities it could fuel the next attack?

just a thought ofr you guys i will research into seeds and stuff, i assume epic spells are written completely diffrent to normal spells?


Here.


".................................................. ................"

Use these, PLEASE. :smallconfused:

[Thanatosia]

Edit: Nevermind, someone has writen it up here:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107483
THe Familcide posted by the OP in that thread is a farce IMO. She's using the contact seed in a way that the seeds description explicitly forbids. Not only that, but she's completely ignored the +8dc per creature killed modifier that the Slay Seed requires.

She makes an attempt to defend the bypassed +8dc per target later in the thread, but the defense was seriously week - both by portraying the 'contact' as the most important part of the spell when Slay is most certainly the more central aspect to a spell designed for the sole purpose of slaying other creatures. And any GM who let you use some lame secondary seed to utterly bypass the normal multiple target costs is just bending over to rules abuse, why not just use a secondary seed for ALL slay-based spells and never pay the +8 DC?

Without turning it into a masive ritual requiring huge amounts of feedback, xp costs, and/or spell slots contributed by vast numbers of supporting casters, there is no reasonable way to design Familicide with a DC in reach for a character without many hundreds of ranks of Spellcraft.

[Porthos]

There's another version of the spell, this one made by Undead Prince: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5913561&postcount=1

He got the DC all the way down to 48 (thanks mostly to the Contact Seed). It had lots and lots and... lots (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107488) of discussion surrounding it. Sadly almost all of that discussion got folded into a different catch-all thread, and is thus nigh-unfollowable. :smallwink:

[Thanatosia]

That one is even worse, and for the exact same reasons - its using the Contact seed in a way that the contact seed description specificialy mentions it cannot be used, and again, it's exploiting a secondary seed to completely bypass the multitarget DC modifier of the slay seed - any DM who allows that will find players mixing in random seeds to all their epic spells even where they have no purpose being there just to void intended dc modifiers, its completely against the spirit of the rules within the context of a highly subjective and open ended design system where a DM is supposed to reign in exploitive loopholes.

[Elemental_Elf]

Unless you are evil, there's really no point in having a spell like this because it can only be used for one thing - genocide. You heard right, there is no justification for using a spell like this, ever. Further, fear of the spell itself will not arise until you yourself use it in an act of overt aggression against a well known individual. For how else are your threats to use a spell whose name is only whispered in secret to be taken seriously?

However, if you are looking to acquire it, I wish you the best of luck. :smallsmile:

[Porthos]

That one is even worse, and for the exact same reasons - its using the Contact seed in a way that the contact seed description specificialy mentions it cannot be used, and again, it's exploiting a secondary seed to completely bypass the multitarget DC modifier of the slay seed - any DM who allows that will find players mixing in random seeds to all their epic spells even where they have no purpose being there just to void intended dc modifiers, its completely against the spirit of the rules within the context of a highly subjective and open ended design system where a DM is supposed to reign in exploitive loopholes.

Well, I don't want to get into a long back and forth about it (once was quite enough, thank you. :smallwink:), but I will point out that there is no Epic Spell that does damage at "far away" distances, if one insists on using the range limitations of things like Slay*. All of the damage Seeds are based on "normal-ish" combat distances.

And I'm sorry, but if I am an Epic Level Mage, I should be able to concentrate and give someone a heart attack on the other side of the world (or send a lightning bolt [or whatever] at them). That's practically the definition of the word "Epic". :smalltongue:

As for the rest... Nope not gonna argue it all again. :smallamused: I gave my reasons for various Seeds in the other thread, and I have absolutely no intention on doing so again. :smallsmile:

* BTW: I will bend my "not repeat my arguments" stance ever so slightly to say this: I see no reason why I can't combine a Epic Spell like Soul Scry (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/soulScry.htm) (which lets me tap into the thoughts of someone anywhere on the planet) and a damage spell.

After all, the EPH itself said that this is an Art not a Science.

So. Establish Contact and send magical death through the link. Makes sense to me. :smallsmile:

[Thanatosia]

Well, I have no problems with add hoc modifiers for things there are no rules for, but the dc for an epic spell should at least be as high as any single component of the spell effect.

In other words, if your epic spell can kill 30 creatures, that's great if you use other seeds and factors to make them kill 30 creatures in cool or creative ways or targets them in funky ways or zings them from across the planet, but at the end of the day, its dc should be at LEAST as high as a simple spell that just slays 30 creatures in front of you, and all the fun modifiers and alternate seeds stacked on top of it should increase the DC from there.

The tricks they are playing with the Contact seed is creating a spell that kills X creatures with a DC less then a spell that kills X creatures should ever have. And that is my root argument with the Epic spells as they have built them - they are using a 'weak' effect (contact for communication purposes) to act as a 'price cover' on a very strong effect (instant death).

Its like if I have a lv1 spell that creates a flower, and a lv8 spell that creates a Pit Fiend, I should not be able to tack the 'create a demon' effect on to to flower summning spell to get a lv2 spell that makes a Pit Fiend with some flowers. Always go with the stronger effect for pricing, and add cheaper effects from there.

[Porthos]

Well, I have no problems with add hoc modifiers for things there are no rules for, but the dc for an epic spell should at least be as high as any single component of the spell effect.

In other words, if your epic spell can kill 30 creatures, that's great if you use other seeds and factors to make them kill 30 creatures in cool or creative ways or targets them in funky ways or zings them from across the planet, but at the end of the day, its dc should be at LEAST as high as a simple spell that just slays 30 creatures in front of you, and all the fun modifiers and alternate seeds stacked on top of it should increase the DC from there.

The tricks they are playing with the Contact seed is creating a spell that kills X creatures with a DC less then a spell that kills X creatures should ever have. And that is my root argument with the Epic spells as they have built them - they are using a 'weak' effect (contact for communication purposes) to act as a 'price cover' on a very strong effect (instant death).

Its like if I have a lv1 spell that creates a flower, and a lv8 spell that creates a Pit Fiend, I should not be able to tack the 'create a demon' effect on to to flower summning spell to get a lv2 spell that makes a Pit Fiend with some flowers. Always go with the stronger effect for pricing, and add cheaper effects from there.

Funnily enuf, "Game Design Philosphy" is exactly my reason for agreeing with the Contact Seed (tho I argued for using Reveal as well). :smallsmile:

There are only 45 examples of Epic Spells in the SRD/ELH. And out of those examples exactly two deal with affecting/manipulating things at great distances (Soul Scry and Soul Dominion). All of the others are either generic effects that don't have a distance or are things that are designed to be used on the battlefield. This means that people looking for guidance on "long distance" Epic Spells, don't have much to look at to guide them. And as for the two spells that do work at a distance, they both have Contact (and Reveal). Reading the descriptions of the seeds, it seems clear to me that they make it as if the person targeted was right in front of you, thus bypassing the distance limitations.

Which brings me to the second design argument, which is slightly more in the weeds. It all comes down to what is the Base Seed, as that is the one that is affected most by limitations. If the Base Seed is Contact/Reveal, then the distance limitations of the other Seeds don't apply. If the Base Seed is some sort of Damage Seed, then they do.

It all comes down to the DM, I suppose. :smallsmile:

I will say that at least five different people (on different boards no less) looking at Familicide have all come up with the Contact Seed solution. And we can't all be crazy, now can we?

....

Don't answer that. :smalltongue:

[Kish]

No, but you could all have started from the basic position of having something that doesn't work by D&D rules and setting out to make it work.

[Porthos]

No, but you could all have started from the basic position of having something that doesn't work by D&D rules and setting out to make it work.

I blame Epic Rules for being such a mess in the first place, myself. :smalltongue:

They're not exactly... the most well thought out/tested part of DnD. At least in my personal opinion. :smallwink:

[Dr._Demento]

On the subject of Familicide, is it instantaneous?, because if it is (that is, the message travels faster than the speed of light), than you could send messages back in time...

Just my 2 cents

[Manicotti]

On the subject of Familicide, is it instantaneous?, because if it is (that is, the message travels faster than the speed of light), than you could send messages back in time...

Just my 2 cents

Do you really want to know? (http://xkcd.com/660/)

[Dr._Demento]

Do you really want to know? (http://xkcd.com/660/)

Yay cross web-comic references!

[Forbiddenwar]

I'm starting to think familicide is a DM spell, not a pc spell. I mean, when would a PC cast this spell? Unless they are evil, epic and want to skip the entire game, that is.

[Itous]

i have been hurridly reading over the epic rules for making spells.


i have an idea as to how it could work, but i would need to bounce ideas back and forth, is anyone here experianced with writing epic spells, who is on a chat system who would want to give it a go even just for giggles as a fail epicly?


if anyone is intrested PM me

[Carnivorous_Bea]

The interesting thing is that a fireball in a crowded area can potentially kill more (admittedly low level) targets with its 3rd-level effects than an epic spell can without needing god-like magic backing it up. :smallbiggrin: And it's easier to use pre-epic spells ("scry and die") to kill a target on the far side of the world than epic spells.

The rules definitely needed an overhaul .... :smallamused:

[Berserk Monk]

I think requiring an intellegent (awakened?) undead creature as the focus, as seen in the comic, might reduce the DC even furthur.
Perhaps limit the targets per level (10 targets per caster level?)

Edit: Nevermind, someone has writen it up here:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107483

Casting time of ten minutes? No way it took V that long to cast it in this strip. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0639.html)

[Acero]

Casting time of ten minutes? No way it took V that long to cast it in this strip. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0639.html)

either time stop or it took ten minutes to kill all of them.

[Berserk Monk]

either time stop or it took ten minutes to kill all of them.

This is the internet. I kindly ask you to stop using logic and reason.

[Itous]

do you think the monster's soul wase used.

BoVD varient spell componants

Soul (larval Form) +2DC to saving throw (or its +2 to caster level i don't have the book open infront of me)

sould in recepticle +10 caster level (that one i know for a fact! :D )

also what about a transport / slay attack (epic spells say that there pretty boring so make them look flashy just for effect)

familicide was targeted agenst the blood line and not the creature so ideally a living member or a sample of some blood should be the required spell componant for it. V only bought the monster back to life to witness the monsterous deed he was about to do, being under his control with necrotic power he could of easily sapped the life from him at any point


(more later late for class!)

[MikelaC]

now with my character gone from level 1 -- > 18 in the last 4 months i am seriously considering finding it and running it past my DM

This doesnt add much to the discussion, but if your DM is okay with that sort of speed of level progression, I dont think hes going to have any problems with overpowered spells.

[Ancalagon]

This doesnt add much to the discussion, but if your DM is okay with that sort of speed of level progression, I dont think hes going to have any problems with overpowered spells.

Maybe they played each day for four or so hours?

My contribution to this familicide-discussion is: Plot > Rules. What else is there to say?

[Itous]

This doesnt add much to the discussion, but if your DM is okay with that sort of speed of level progression, I dont think hes going to have any problems with overpowered spells.

wow if only you knew what we've been through, i would highly sujest you don't judge people, for all you know we gamed 4 days a week, unless your a player i sujest you keep it closed, k?


also strictly for the record it was between 8 - 12 hours per day (not including time for breaks) for 4 days -.-

also the reason why the spell seems so unbalanced is probably because you've never had a DM capable of handling an epic spell or even spells above 3rd level or simpley your not able to handle it yourself? or perhaps all of the above, that seems to be logical

[Itous]

close this thread

[Allan Surgite]

wow if only you knew what we've been through, i would highly sujest you don't judge people, for all you know we gamed 4 days a week, unless your a player i sujest you keep it closed, k?
This isn't really judging people. It's the simplest conclusion and the same thought I uttered when I saw your post.


also the reason why the spell seems so unbalanced is probably because you've never had a DM capable of handling an epic spell or even spells above 3rd level or simpley your not able to handle it yourself? or perhaps all of the above, that seems to be logical
...what? No, a spell with no casting time that kills off someone and their entire extended family is definitely overpowered, even to someone who's never played D&D. Drawing a completely illogical conclusion that saying "oh, this is logical" doesn't make it logical; the spell is unbalanced, since it doesn't seem to cost anything (except a rapid crossing of the Moral Event Horizon) in exchange for mass murder; possibly even without a save.

[Daefos]

wow if only you knew what we've been through, i would highly sujest you don't judge people, for all you know we gamed 4 days a week, unless your a player i sujest you keep it closed, k?


also strictly for the record it was between 8 - 12 hours per day (not including time for breaks) for 4 days -.-

also the reason why the spell seems so unbalanced is probably because you've never had a DM capable of handling an epic spell or even spells above 3rd level or simpley your not able to handle it yourself? or perhaps all of the above, that seems to be logical

:xykon: "Someone got two scoops of self-esteem in their raisin bran this morning."

[1337 b4k4]

Casting time of ten minutes? No way it took V that long to cast it in this strip.

We know for a fact from http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0667.html that the cast time and effective time for the spell is less than 3 minutes 6 seconds.

[Lecan]

wow if only you knew what we've been through, i would highly sujest you don't judge people, for all you know we gamed 4 days a week, unless your a player i sujest you keep it closed, k?


also strictly for the record it was between 8 - 12 hours per day (not including time for breaks) for 4 days -.-

also the reason why the spell seems so unbalanced is probably because you've never had a DM capable of handling an epic spell or even spells above 3rd level or simpley your not able to handle it yourself? or perhaps all of the above, that seems to be logical

For someone asking for help, you seem to be awfully stuck on yourself. And as someone above me said, labeling something 'logical' does not make it so.

[Acero]

We know for a fact from http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0667.html that the cast time and effective time for the spell is less than 3 minutes 6 seconds.

no.

they were talking about the enite time the soul splice was active. each 1 owned a soul, and got time fore each spell used

[Keris]

they were talking about the enite time the soul splice was active. each 1 owned a soul, and got time fore each spell used

Er, no. Each of the fiends would possess Vaarsuvius's soul for "the same amount of time that [Vaarsuvius] is under the effects of [that fiend's] Soul Splice" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0633.html), i.e. however long Vaarsuvius spends bound to that particular soul.
Shortly after casting Familicide, Vaarsuvius lost the soul of Haera (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0641.html). Some time later, Vaarsuvius lost the other two souls and ended the Splice completely (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html). Haera was the purple-eyed fiend's soul (I believe the fiend was Cedrik?), and as she was Spliced with Vaarsuvius for a shorter duration, Cedrik will hold dominion over Vaarusvius's soul for a shorter duration. Specifically, 3m6s, rather than 20m35s.

[Prowl]

no.

they were talking about the enite time the soul splice was active. each 1 owned a soul, and got time fore each spell used

From the time the soul splice was activated to the time that the first soul (the one which provided the Familicide spell) broke free, the entirety of those events was three minutes, six seconds.

Therefore the casting of that spell could not possibly take longer, as we have seen it cast and have a maximum time for the chain of events which includes its complete casting.

If the gaming nerds here want to go into more detail they can narrow the range further by figuring out some minimum times for all the other actions taken in that time frame - the initial surge of energies from the splicing, the combat with the dragon, the telekinesis spell, reanimating the head, and the conversation time in between, and subtracting that time from the 3m6s interval.

I'm not exactly sure how long a round takes in D&D 3.5 ed, but I'm sure someone here can tell us.

[Scow2]

A round is 6 seconds, right?

[Claudius Maximus]

A round is six seconds, yes. I wonder if time spent in Time Stop counts.

[Acero]

A round is six seconds, yes. I wonder if time spent in Time Stop counts.

it doesn't

[DBJack]

V wouldn't have cast time stop to cast familicide though, two were already prepared and there are other high level spells that are more important than a third time stop.

[Prowl]

OK, we can narrow it down further at 6 seconds a round.

From the moment of the soul splice:

- 1 round maniacal laughter and orientation
- 1 round casting teleport
- 1 round casting disjunction and quickened disintegrate
- 1 round in time stop
- 1 round casting shapechange, dragon dies
- 1 round casting telekinesis

Now we're 36 seconds minimum into the splice.

Then we have a problem. With a maximum of 3m6s from the splicing to the first soul breaking free, there's only 2m30s left to allocate.

V next casts Create Greater Undead. According to SRD 3.5, this spell is supposed to take a full hour to cast. (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Create_Greater_Undead) This is not consistent with the fiends' statements of how much time has passed. So we'll call this a homebrew version of the spell, since the Giant never makes a mistake. :smallwink:

So we continue:

- min 1 round casting Create Greater Undead (OotS version)
- ??? casting Familicide
- 1 round casting disintegrate

Then finally, the exchange that leads to the soul breaking free, call it one round for Haerta to break free.

This leaves us with a casting time range of possibility from 1 round (6 seconds) at the minimum, to a maximum casting time of about 22 rounds (2 minutes, 12 seconds).

The open question left to us now is: in the OotS world, what is the casting time of Create Greater Undead?

[Manicotti]

:xykon: "Someone got two scoops of self-esteem in their raisin bran this morning."

My thought exactly. Bonus irony points for the ranks in Craft (Illiterate Nerdrage).

[Kish]

it doesn't
Are you part of the IFCC?

[Acero]

Are you part of the IFCC?

hey, it was the only job i could get in this economy

i work in the non-human relations/resources department

[Vericrat]

Just want to point out, it's not really a problem getting the cast time of epic spells down...in point of fact every epic spell I've ever created I've just tacked on the +28 to DC to bring the cast time down to a swift action (the difference between +20 to get it to a standard and +28 to get it down to swift isn't so great) unless I was going to do a ritual version and had to get the DC down.

Now, for familicide:

Familicide
Necromancy
Spellcraft DC: 101
Components: V, S, Focus, XP
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 300'
Area: 20896880' radius (radius of the planet)
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude Partial
Spell Resistance: Yes
To Develop: 909,000 GP; 18 days; 36360 XP. Seed: slay (DC 25). Factor: Change target to area 20' radius (+12 DC), Increase area to 20896880' radius (+1,044,844 DC), 1-action casting time (+20 DC). Mitigating factors: Focus must have been killed by caster and be undead at the time (ad hoc -100 DC), spell affects only targets related to the focus (ad hoc -1,044,700 DC*)

This spell snuffs out the life force of all living creatures on the planet that are related to the focus. A successful fortitude save reduces the effect to 3d6+20 points of damage. No creature with more than 80 HD is affected by this spell.

*OK, now the explanation for the massive DC drop for the last mitigating factor. Basically, I've changed from a target to an area, then increased the area to a burst centered around the target to the radius of the world. Now, left like that, every being in the world makes a saving throw or dies. Because we've limited ourselves to just targets related to the focus, we're excluding almost 100% of targets from the area of the spell. In fact, if I made it just a straight percentage (based on a world population of 6 billion - and it would be more than that because it would affect every insect, critter, goblin, human, dragon, etc on the world) then this particular reduction in the DC would assume almost 1 million black dragons would be affected by the spell. Somehow, I doubt there are 4 million black dragons in the world. So it's not just a straight percentage of which targets in the area are affected, because otherwise, there would be almost no noticeable increase in the DC by creating such a massive area effect. In this case, the spellcraft DC increase is around +144, with most of that being wiped out by the focus, which is admittedly not particularly easy to come by. Still, this would be where the judgement call of the DM came into play. Such a spell is very powerful, but not overly so for an extremely powerful epic caster. So he would fudge around with the mitigating factor until he came up with a spellcraft DC he liked, but overall, I think somewhere in the 100-200 range (this being on the low end of that) is acceptable, and probably what I'd allow in my game.

[theinsulabot]

Just want to point out, it's not really a problem getting the cast time of epic spells down...in point of fact every epic spell I've ever created I've just tacked on the +28 to DC to bring the cast time down to a swift action (the difference between +20 to get it to a standard and +28 to get it down to swift isn't so great) unless I was going to do a ritual version and had to get the DC down.

Now, for familicide:

Familicide
Necromancy
Spellcraft DC: 101
Components: V, S, Focus, XP
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 300'
Area: 20896880' radius (radius of the planet)
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude Partial
Spell Resistance: Yes
To Develop: 909,000 GP; 18 days; 36360 XP. Seed: slay (DC 25). Factor: Change target to area 20' radius (+12 DC), Increase area to 20896880' radius (+1,044,844 DC), 1-action casting time (+20 DC). Mitigating factors: Focus must have been killed by caster and be undead at the time (ad hoc -100 DC), spell affects only targets related to the focus (ad hoc -1,044,700 DC*)

This spell snuffs out the life force of all living creatures on the planet that are related to the focus. A successful fortitude save reduces the effect to 3d6+20 points of damage. No creature with more than 80 HD is affected by this spell.
/snip

its not terrible, but if familicide was like that, why wouldn't the dragons of survived? even ignoring for the moment the fact that they could probably make most of there saves, dont they normally have more then 80 hp?

[hamishspence]

80 hit dice, not 80 hit points. a Great Red Wyrm has 40 hit dice, a Great Black Wyrm somewhat less.

Only a massively advanced dragon, using the Epic Handbook rules to advance it a long way, would survive.