Optimizing Overrun (3.5)

[Human Paragon 3]

One of my players is running a dwarven fighter with Improved Overrun as one of his feats. It's not the most optimal choice, but it has been very fun in the lone adventure we have run with the character so far. Lenient DM'ing allows for "off the top rope" style diving overruns and the like, and it's always a good time when it happens.

So what other feats besides improved overrun should the dwarven fighter take? Can you recomend any items of prestige classes that improve or give new options for the overrunner? He just gained his 3rd character level and has not yet selected a feat.

[ericgrau]

Since the defender may simply avoid you, its best use is for reaching the enemy's back line. Knocking someone prone is an extra bonus. If they do avoid you, you can go straight to attacking the back line in the same turn since you haven't burned an action on overrun. So all you really need is the feat, a good strength score and a good movement speed. As a dwarf that last one is an issue. Boots of striding and springing or boots of speed can help here. Boots of speed are also awesome combat item for any fighter. Or substitute a party wizard with haste. A dip into barbarian gives a speed boost and rage strength, but forces you to drop your armor down a category. Since he doesn't need to worry about baddies in his way, he can double his speed by charging. Unless the baddy tries to block him, in which case knocking someone prone is all the better.

EDIT, one more obscure trick: Once he hits level 10ish he can start putting all or most of his skill points into cross class tumble ranks. Then around level 15ish he can dip into rogue to max out tumble. Dwarves may tumble in heavy armor since it doesn't reduce their movement speed. If he takes the -10 penalty for an accelerated tumble he can charge while tumbling. An accelerated tumble may be used as part of a charge since it doesn't reduce his movement speed. This way, if there's more than one enemy between him and the back row he can tumble past/through them. This is called "dwarf bowling". Or an exceptionally high jump check can accomplish the same thing.

[dyslexicfaser]

If you stick him on a horse, get the Trample feat or lket him switch Imp Overrun for it. The wording is a bit vague, but it seems to suggest the horse can Overrun people with its action, cannot be avoided, and gets a hoof attack in the bargain, enabling the dwarf to close in on his own target.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Dungeoncrasher from Dungeonscape. He'll need to retrain, but it allows you to damage people by running them into walls. Seems to fit the concept.

[Flatulous]

Overrun is definitely underrated in my opinion, but it has it's flaws.

One major drawback is that unlike all the other "Improved <Maneuver>" feats, with Improved Overrun you still end up provoking an attack of opportunity with your maneuver

This means "Mobility" is probably a good feat for your dwarven overrunner. If he appoints the overrun target as his Dodge target, he gets +5 to AC for the AoO when he tries to overrun. That's a big help.

Like most of these PowerAttack feats, size category helps a lot. He wants to get LARGE. If you have a wizard in the party, Enlarge Person is essential. It's one of the best things as wizard can do to help the party at low level anyway. If your campaign allows custom built wondrous items, he should purchase an item that enlarges him.

It's not as good as Improved Trip for getting your opponent prone but if you can't get Combat Expertise, it's a good alternative.

[NEO|Phyte]

If you stick him on a horse, get the Trample feat or lket him switch Imp Overrun for it. The wording is a bit vague, but it seems to suggest the horse can Overrun people with its action, cannot be avoided, and gets a hoof attack in the bargain, enabling the dwarf to close in on his own target.

Plus one of the tactical feats in Complete Warrior gives you the ability to Overrun multiple people (with a hoof attack each) while mounted, IIRC.

[ericgrau]

Whoops, just noticed that with improved overrun you can force the target to not avoid you. Though a standard action to basically trip someone without damaging them doesn't seem so hot. He might want to try some of the other options mentioned thus far.

[Fax Celestis]

Whoops, just noticed that with improved overrun you can force the target to not avoid you. Though a standard action to basically trip someone without damaging them doesn't seem so hot. He might want to try some of the other options mentioned thus far.

Does that trigger Improved Trip?

[Starbuck_II]

Since you are making them drop: does it trigger cleave?

[Human Paragon 3]

Maybe I should homebrew some overrun tactical feats or something.

[dyslexicfaser]

I see two methods you could use to bring Overrun up to par with the other Improved abilities, if you're looking to homebrew a solution.

Either: 1) Allow the dwarf to get off a single swing (or otherwise damage the target, like Trample) on the way by, or 2) Give him the ability to Overrun multiple targets each turn, turning him into more of a battlefield controller.

But then, if you do the first option, it'd be stepping on Spring Attack (not usually a worthwhile option, anyway)'s toes with iron boots.

[ericgrau]

Well on the plus side he does reach the back line after tripping someone in the front line. It just seems almost as good to let them let him by so when he gets to the back line he takes a swing at it instead of the front line. Or he can just get a mount so he can trample.

[Person_Man]

There is really nothing in the rules to support Overrun (www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Overrun) that I am aware of. It's total weak sauce. I would let him retrain it into something else. If he still wants to keep the concept, there are a couple of different ways to get the Trample (www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Trample) ability (not the weaker Trample feat). I think Totemist and Binder work. Totemist/Psychic Warrior with Expansion would work nicely.

[Human Paragon 3]

How does this look for a tactical feat?


Battle Juggernaut [Tactical]
An enemy in your way is just a road bump on the path to glory.
Prerequisites: Power Attack, Improved Overrun, BAB+6
The Battle Juggernaut feat enables the use of three tactical maneuvers.
Trampling Charge: You may make an overrun attempt as part of a charge, either by overrunning one opponent to attack another, or by charging weapon-first into an opponent you overrun. To use this maneuver, you must meet all the requirements for a normal charge attack, except that an enemy in the path of the charge does not disrupt it. You may move up to double your movement, making one overrun attempt at any point in the charge, then resolving the charge attack as normal. If your overrun attempt fails, the charge is also spoiled.
Momentous Rush: You may make overrun attempts against multiple opponents in the same round. To use this maneuver, you must successfully overrun a creature. If you have movement remaining and can reach another creature's square, you may continue your movement into that square and make a second overrun attempt. You may continue moving and overrunning creatures until you run out of movement, or one of your overrun attempts fail.
Clattering Blow: You brazenly smash aside the weapons of those who attempt to defend themselves from your onrush. To use this maneuver, you must first provoke an attack of opportunity from an enemy by entering his square. If the attack of opportunity misses, you may immediately make a disarm attempt as a free action, and your enemy cannot attempt to disarm you if the attempt fails. If the attempt succeeds, the weapon is knocked 10 feet in a random direction.

[dyslexicfaser]

Pretty nifty, and fixes most of the problems inherent in Overrun. Pity it costs you an extra feat, but for people who want to Overrun and damn the consequences, it's a Godsend.

[ghashxx]

How does this look for a tactical feat?


Battle Juggernaut [Tactical]
An enemy in your way is just a road bump on the path to glory.
Prerequisites: Power Attack, Improved Overrun, BAB+6
The Battle Juggernaut feat enables the use of three tactical maneuvers.
Trampling Charge: You may make an overrun attempt as part of a charge, either by overrunning one opponent to attack another, or by charging weapon-first into an opponent you overrun. To use this maneuver, you must meet all the requirements for a normal charge attack, except that an enemy in the path of the charge does not disrupt it. You may move up to double your movement, making one overrun attempt at any point in the charge, then resolving the charge attack as normal. If your overrun attempt fails, the charge is also spoiled.
Momentous Rush: You may make overrun attempts against multiple opponents in the same round. To use this maneuver, you must successfully overrun a creature. If you have movement remaining and can reach another creature's square, you may continue your movement into that square and make a second overrun attempt. You may continue moving and overrunning creatures until you run out of movement, or one of your overrun attempts fail.
Clattering Blow: You brazenly smash aside the weapons of those who attempt to defend themselves from your onrush. To use this maneuver, you must first provoke an attack of opportunity from an enemy by entering his square. If the attack of opportunity misses, you may immediately make a disarm attempt as a free action, and your enemy cannot attempt to disarm you if the attempt fails. If the attempt succeeds, the weapon is knocked 10 feet in a random direction.

I really like this set up, giving multiple decent uses for the underpowered overrun. Though I'm not certain about the last use with a disarm. It seams like for overrun it would make more sense that maybe "if their attack misses you have set them up so they won't be in position to make another AoO against for for one full round" or something like that, thereby giving you another free overrun attempt against them, or not worry about their AoO from leaving their square when you overrun someone else.

[Human Paragon 3]

I really like this set up, giving multiple decent uses for the underpowered overrun. Though I'm not certain about the last use with a disarm. It seams like for overrun it would make more sense that maybe "if their attack misses you have set them up so they won't be in position to make another AoO against for for one full round" or something like that, thereby giving you another free overrun attempt against them, or not worry about their AoO from leaving their square when you overrun someone else.

Most creatures only get one attack of opportunity per round, anyway, so I don't see that as much of a boon. The concept is that they try to attack you as you bowl into them, but you just smash their weapon aside. The enterprising overrunner could take combat expertise and improved disarm to really take advantage of it.

[ghashxx]

Most creatures only get one attack of opportunity per round, anyway, so I don't see that as much of a boon. The concept is that they try to attack you as you bowl into them, but you just smash their weapon aside. The enterprising overrunner could take combat expertise and improved disarm to really take advantage of it.

Since they're a fighter I guess they might have the extra feats to spare. And now that I really give it some thought, I've always loved disarming people. Nothing is more priceless than the expression on another fighter's face when his +5 Viscious Vorpal Great Falchion gets ripped out of his hands. Except for maybe trapping said fighter in a force cage.

[Draz74]

Tome of Battle has some minimal support for Overrun that the Fighter could use via Martial Study feats. At Level 14 or higher, he can use one feat to learn Boulder Roll, which will let him make one Overrun attempt per encounter with a +4 bonus and no attacks of opportunity.

With significant investment (a dip in a ToB class, or three feats/items and Level 18), he can also learn Mountain Avalanche, which will let him Trample everything in his path (his size or smaller) 1/encounter. This one doesn't technically use the Overrun mechanics, though.