Arena Tournament, Round 75: Squirrel and Mr. Solus vs. Bray and Ro-gayn

[ArenaManager]

Arena Tournament, Round 75: Squirrel and Mr. Solus vs. Bray and Ro-gayn

Map:
http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z123/TheChilliGod/Giantitp/Arena4ii.gif



XP Award: 300 XP to each non-DQd member of winning team
GP Award: 300 GP to each non-DQd member of winning team

Mr. Solus (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=149117) - hustlertwo
Squirrel (http://pifro.com/pro/view.php?id=3655) - Sallera
Bray (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=157759) - Ladorak
Ro-gayn (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=157104) - Bakkan



All Combatants, please roll initiative and declare any final purchases

Prior to the match start you may privately plan by spoiler or PM with your partner, but after the start any communications will need to be done in character inside the arena as rules allow.

[Sallera]

Init: [roll0]

Waiting on purchases for now.

[hustlertwo]

Init: [roll0]

Also waiting, reserving the right to reactionary doodly doo.

Interesting. What happens with a tie and the same modifier, again?

[Sallera]

Reroll. [roll0]

[Ladorak]

Init: [roll0]

Not really sure if my partner's gonna show... so no purchases for now

[hustlertwo]

[roll0]

Is the reroll just a tiebreaker? I assume it doesn't replace the original. Though really, I also don't much care where I go, you being my partner and all.

[Sallera]

Yeh, it's just a tiebreaker.

[hustlertwo]

Sucks to waste such a good roll for such a small purpose.

[Bakkan]

Ro-Gayn

[roll0]

Ladorak: Sorry about my DQ in our previous round, I had gotten confused about the turn order.

No purchases

[hustlertwo]

OK, so the order is:

Solus
Squirrel
Ro-gayn
Bray

And much as I hate to blow all of last round's winnings...well, I don't guess I needed the money for anything in particular anyhow. 1 potion of Fire Resistance bought!

[Sallera]

Selling greatsword, purchasing masterwork greatsword.

[Ladorak]

Don't worry about it Bakkan, it was a pretty confusing round.

No purchases, ready to go

[hustlertwo]

So....I guess I wait on Bakkan to confirm no buys? He didn't reserve the right for reactionary purchases, but I don't want to cut him short, since once I take my turn it's kinda too late for him to buy anything.

[Sallera]

There's also the unresolved matter of whether Dormin should have been DQ'd or not, so we shouldn't start until that's settled.

[hustlertwo]

I see this. Quite a pickle. I guess the two remaining in round 75 duke it out, and if Bray wins, this goes as it was, and if not, youse and me tangle with the others.

[Bakkan]

No purchases.

[Sallera]

This match is on hold until completion of the previous one.

[Sallera]

As the previous match ended in the same manner as before, this match can now resume.

[hustlertwo]

OK then...here we go.

Whisper to Squirrel: Don't forget, worst comes to worst for you or me, I am packing the one potion of CLW. Could be of value in outlasting their arcane powers.

Solus starts in W-11, potion and bow in hand. He drinks the potion and moves to Q-12.

Stats:

HP: 9
AC: 19
Spells remaining: All
Active buff: Fire Resistance 10, basically until end of match

[Sallera]

Squirrel, Round 1

Starting in W10, wielding greatsword.
Move: To K10.
Swift: Chronocharm to E10.
Free: Rage.
Standard: Ready action:Move if Ro-gayn either leaves LoS, readies an action after moving at least 5ft, takes a standard action after moving at least 5ft, or ends his turn.

Stats:HP 20/20, AC16 (16, 16)
Psionically focused
Rage 7 rounds
Xeph bursts: 3/3
Done.

[Bakkan]

Turn Done.

Stats:

Position: F10
HP: 8/8
AC: 14 (+4 Dex)

Spell Prepared:

0 - Electric Jolt x3
1 - Distract Assailant, Kelgore's Fire Bolt, Burning Hands
2 - Scorching Ray

[Bakkan]

Hmm, not sure why it lost the first part of my post. Well, here goes again.

Ro-Gayn - Round 1

Free Action: Whisper to Bray in Orcish:
If this doesn't work, take the barbarian out

Begin in D10

Move Action: Move to F10

Swift Action: Target Squirrel with a spell
Spellcraft DC 16 to identify:
Distract Assailant

Squirrel needs to make a DC 14 Will save or
Be flat-footed until the beginning of his next turn

Standard Action: Target Squirrel with a spell
Spellcraft DC 17 to identify:
Scorching Ray, using Precocious Apprentice and auto-succeeding on the CL check

Two rays of flame streak from Ro-Gayn's fingers toward Squirrel.
[roll0]
[roll1]

[roll2]
[roll3]

Turn Done.

Stats:

Position: F10
HP: 8/8
AC: 14 (+4 Dex)

Spell Prepared:

0 - Electric Jolt x3
1 - Distract Assailant, Kelgore's Fire Bolt, Burning Hands
2 - Scorching Ray



EDIT: Hmm, it seems that I had misread Sallera's previous post and thought her barbarian was still in K10. Do my actions hold?

[Sallera]

No, you'll have to redo your turn anyway; note the text under the map. Everyone's under an unbreakable Sanctuary effect until the beginning of the second round.

Edit: Noticed your question about precedent in the Waiting Room. If it weren't for the Sanctuary making your turn as posted illegal, you wouldn't get to change it; if the posted actions are legal, they stand.

[Bakkan]

Wow....... I feel like an idiot. First a DQ from the previous round and now this. Are there restrictions on readied actions?

[Sallera]

No; as long as the trigger doesn't occur until Round 2, you can take an offensive readied action.

[Bakkan]

Ro-Gayn - Round 2 (for real this time...)

Move Action: To B7 and then North out of LoS to
B5

Actions (LoS/refs only):

Standard Action: Ready an action to
cast Scorching Ray at Squirrel if he enters a square within 55 feet and without cover from me.


End of Turn

Stats and Status:

Position: F10
HP: 8/8
AC: 14 (+4 Dex)

Spell Prepared:

0 - Electric Jolt x3
1 - Distract Assailant, Kelgore's Fire Bolt, Burning Hands
2 - Scorching Ray

[Sallera]

Could you describe the exact path you take? You don't actually leave my LoS after B7, and my readied action triggers when you do.

[Bakkan]

Path: D10 > C9 > B8 > B7 > B6 >
Everyone but hustler2:
B5\

[Sallera]

Alright, thanks. So my readied action will be to move to A5. Does this change your standard action? Sorry, realized your end position is still in LoS, so my readied action actually triggers when you take your standard action, and I move to the same place.

Now, I think that concludes that, so Bray's turn.

[Bakkan]

That would have triggered my standard action, but it was offensive in nature, so it fails.

[hustlertwo]

OK, I'm confused. Not that this is a new development.

[Bakkan]

Ok, perhaps I expressed myself badly.

I moved and then readied an action, triggering Sallera's readied action. Sallera's readied action triggered my readied action. However, my readied action was offensive in nature, so it failed to trigger due to the sanctuary effect in place. As far as I can tell, it is now Ladorak's turn.

Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

[hustlertwo]

It's a wonder more people don't play this game, it being so easy to understand and all.

[Ladorak]

It's a wonder more people don't play this game, it being so easy to understand and all.

Lol, truer words have rarely been spoken

Bray turn 1

Start in C-11

Move south, breaking LoS with Solus at A-14 and ending move in A-16

Ready an action:
Sudden Max Firebolt at Squirrel at start of his turn or Colour Spray at Solus if Solus enters range of said spell



Stats:

AC: 11
HP: 10

Spells:
Resistance
Ray of Frost
Ray of Frost
Colour Spray (Heighted to Lv 3)
Kelgore's Firebolt
Kelgore’s Fire Bolt

[hustlertwo]

Refs/LoS

Solus moves to K-12. Will need LoS before I continue.

[chilepepper]

Ok, perhaps I expressed myself badly.

I moved and then readied an action, triggering Sallera's readied action. Sallera's readied action triggered my readied action. However, my readied action was offensive in nature, so it failed to trigger due to the sanctuary effect in place. As far as I can tell, it is now Ladorak's turn.

Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

Sallera's readied action interrupts your action. You didn't have a readied action at the point Sallera does whatever she did.

[Ladorak]

Sallera's readied action interrupts your action. You didn't have a readied action at the point Sallera does whatever she did.

My brain! It hurts!:smallwink:

[Sallera]

Yeh, that is true, but if his readied action was set to trigger as soon as I was within a certain range, it would still go off; I'd figured that was what happened.

[hustlertwo]

Wait....wouldn't his spell still go off, but fail to hit? Going by Sanctuary rules, people aren't prevented from making offensive actions toward the protected person, they just have to make a Will save for it to it. As this is the same except with no Will save, the spell would go off, and fail due to the Sanctuary. I don't know where we'd stand on AoO possibility, though; does Sanctuary protect against that? Honestly, I'd think so, but it's not a strictly offensive action, so I'm not 100%.

[Sallera]

Well, it says if they fail the save, they "can't follow through with the attack." I'd interpret that to mean that they attempt to take the action, but can't bring themselves to actually do it.

And AoOs are still attacks, so Sanctuary stops them.

[chilepepper]

Yes, the action is wasted. But in the case of Readied Actions, you can choose not to take the action when it triggers, thereby not wasting a spell. AoOs are also prevented by the effect (which is nice when someone acts first and summons a monster right beside you).

Also, let me try an explain the order of events as they occur with this readied action situation.

Jim readies an action to do Attack if Bob does a Standard Action.

Bob starts to Ready an Action (a standard action). As soon as he starts it, before it actually happens, Jim gets to Attack.

After Jim's Attack, Bob readies his action.

When a readied action triggers, it happens immediately BEFORE the action that triggers it. Therefore, the trigger hasn't actually happened.

Now either you understand, or your head exploded.

[Sallera]

Yes, yes, I'm well aware of that. I'm simply saying that certain common triggers, such as within a certain range, are going to go off regardless of when the movement occurs. If he had readied an action to cast, for example, Color Spray as soon as I was within 15ft, then I move within 15ft, he readies that action, and it immediately triggers. And given that that particular readied action is quite likely under the circumstances, I suspect that may well be what happened.

Of course, if Bakkan would care to show up and put a stop to this silly discussion, I won't be objecting.

[hustlertwo]

Yes, the action is wasted. But in the case of Readied Actions, you can choose not to take the action when it triggers, thereby not wasting a spell. AoOs are also prevented by the effect (which is nice when someone acts first and summons a monster right beside you).

Also, let me try an explain the order of events as they occur with this readied action situation.

Jim readies an action to do Attack if Bob does a Standard Action.

Bob starts to Ready an Action (a standard action). As soon as he starts it, before it actually happens, Jim gets to Attack.

After Jim's Attack, Bob readies his action.

When a readied action triggers, it happens immediately BEFORE the action that triggers it. Therefore, the trigger hasn't actually happened.

Now either you understand, or your head exploded.

But originally, Ro-Gayn did cast his Scorching Ray, not as a readied action but simply a normal one. Does that mean he has lost it now? He redid the turn under the assumption it was an illegal one, but if it was legal, Arena precedent says that mistake or no, it goes as originally posted, only illegal ones can be redone Meaning the Scorching Ray went off and fizzled.

[Ladorak]

I may be bias in this but my reading of Sanctuary is that the action doesn't happen, and therefore the spell is not cast and does not fizzle

[hustlertwo]

I also may be biased, but my reading is the save is to see whether the action succeeds; if the save was failed, the person who did the attack wouldn't be able to pretend it didn't happen and use their standard or full round action for something else. Since this is identical to regular Sanctuary save for the...well, save, it means his attack would be like one that failed the Will save throw for a successful attack, a failed attempt and wasted action.

And yes, this is blatant lawyering. But it's just following in the proud Arena tradition of squirming through every conceivable bit of wiggle room in the rules. Although in this case it seems like it would be accurate.

[Bakkan]

The question comes down to what triggered Sallera's readied action. If the action was set to go off when I took a standard action, then Sallera's readied action happens before my standard action, which was to ready an action. My standard action to ready has still happened. At this point, Sallera has not technically triggered my readied action, since Sallera has not done the action specified in my readied action spoiler.

So the current situation is that I still have a readied action.

[Sallera]

Thank you. Your readying an action was indeed one of the triggers I specified, and the one that set it off, so whatever your action is, it hasn't happened, and now we need LoS.

[Ladorak]

If the save fails, the opponent can’t follow through with the attack, that part of its action is lost

To my reading, you lose the standard action (And could not, for example, redirect a spell at another target) but would not lose the spell itself, just as you would not lose an arrow if you were attacking with a bow.

I concede that this would mean there would be no readied action... But maybe I could convince you to take it easy on my partner? This is only his second game after all...

[hustlertwo]

To my reading, you lose the standard action (And could not, for example, redirect a spell at another target) but would not lose the spell itself, just as you would not lose an arrow if you were attacking with a bow.

I concede that this would mean there would be no readied action... But maybe I could convince you to take it easy on my partner? This is only his second game after all...

Bakkan? No it isn't. I fought him in round 60 with Fiorella. He made it to the finals. I think he's been here longer than you. Unless I have him confused with someone...

And right below your bolded text it says "that part of the action is lost". Kinda proves my point.

[Ladorak]

Bakkan? No it isn't. I fought him in round 60 with Fiorella. He made it to the finals. I think he's been here longer than you. Unless I have him confused with someone...

And right below your bolded text it says "that part of the action is lost". Kinda proves my point.

Actually you're not thinking of someone else, I am, sorry. But if the action is lost then the spell is not cast, or rather the attempt to cast it doesn't happen

[chilepepper]

Spoiler for refs, Sallera only

Move if Ro-gayn either leaves LoS, readies an action after moving at least 5ft, takes a standard action after moving at least 5ft, or ends his turn.

@Sallera, refsWhen did the arena start allowing multiple triggers. Last I knew, it had to be "Do X when Y happens. X had to be specific, Y could be broad, but the both still had to be one thing. Ready actions can't be structured like a flow chart.

[Ladorak]

... I sense this is getting even more complicated, isn't it?

[hustlertwo]

Actually you're not thinking of someone else, I am, sorry. But if the action is lost then the spell is not cast, or rather the attempt to cast it doesn't happen

I haven't seen anything to back up that claim. If you failed to hit someone who had a real Sanctuary spell with a spell, you wouldn't get the use of that spell back. And in this case, they wouldn't be any different. But as near as I can tell, regardless of whether his use of Scorching Ray was used up (which I will admit is debatable, no definitive evidence either way), he is definitely now located in F10, with no readied action (since he used up his standard one). If any ref has a reason why that wouldn't be the case, I'm all ears.

[Ladorak]

He is definitely now located in F10, with no readied action (since he used up his standard one). If any ref has a reason why that wouldn't be the case, I'm all ears.

Agreed, unless it's deemed an illegal action by a high ref. I was only contesting the loss of the spell

[Sallera]

Chile/Refs:To the best of my knowledge, Arena precedent is one specific action, but as many potential triggers as you want. It's not a flow chart, it's 'if any one of these happens, take this action.' I've not seen it ruled otherwise that I can remember.

Edit:
Agreed, unless it's deemed an illegal action by a high ref. I was only contesting the loss of the spell

Yeh, if it's deemed his first turn was legal, we'll have to rewind some; my action was based on his revised turn.

[hustlertwo]

OK, so one part's settled. I guess we just need a high ref ruling on the spell loss thing, it does not appear to have RAW basis either way and I'm unaware of any Arena precedent on the matter.

[Mavian]

High Ref Mav.


Bakkan readies an action, Sallera's readied action goes off, before Bakkan actually readies it due to the rules of readying actions.

After Sallera finishes moving, Bakkan then readies whatever action he was readying and his turn ends.

Then Ladorak moves.

Why all the confusion?

[Sallera]

Because certain people think that Bakkan's unrevised turn should stand, which would mean I'd have to revise mine, and then presumably Ladorak would want to revise his...

[Ladorak]

And if the unrevised one does stand then we need a ruling on wherever the spell fizzled and is lost or if it simply is not cast

[hustlertwo]

Sallera

You sound like you'd rather not have Ro-Gayn's original turn stand, the one where he pisses away his best spell and stands out in the open with no readied action. Why? I mean, if there's a reason I don't mind going along with you, I just don't know why the alternative would be better. Especially since the other guy's probably going to try and burn you down, and I imagine he has a fairly good chance. Since his spell does an auto 18 damage (or did last match), if you fail the save, you go to 0 HP.

[Sallera]

hustlertwo:I don't really care one way or the other, this is just holding up the match; now that we've started it, though, we pretty much need a High Ref ruling one way or the other for precedent. And I've got 20hp when raging, which is why I wasn't worried about Bray's firebolt.

[hustlertwo]

hustlertwo:I don't really care one way or the other, this is just holding up the match; now that we've started it, though, we pretty much need a High Ref ruling one way or the other for precedent. And I've got 20hp when raging, which is why I wasn't worried about Bray's firebolt.

Ohhhhh...gotcha. I forgot about that. Then you're right, it doesn't matter terribly, aside from precedent. That does change things, I feel a good bit more optimistic. Both you and I get a poke at Ro before he takes a turn, and we are both guaranteed to survive long enough to do it, because with my potion going, I can't be killed my an 18 firebolt either (and if I made the save, I wouldn't even take any damage). Just make sure if your melee attack(s) miss, you 5 foot away so I don't take a penalty for firing into melee with my arrows. Although if that's not enough to keep the penalty from being active, I can just hit him with a 3d6 firebolt of my own. Less likely to work, but still possible.

[Mavian]

Ah, I see now. You were all talking about readied actions so I didn't dig far enough back in the thread.

That's simple. Spell fizzles. His turn was valid, he can't make the infinite will safe to cast the spell, so he attempts to cast it and it fizzle.

No redo nessecary.

[Sallera]

Alright, thanks. So in that case, I will decline to take my readied action, remaining in E10. Bray, any changes to your turn?

[hustlertwo]

So.....this means you're in E-10, Ro's in F-10, I'm in Q-12, and Bray is...wherever Bray ends up being?

[Sallera]

Aye, sounds right.

[Ladorak]

Ok, just so I'm clear on things as they stand...

Solus@ Q-12 (No readied)
Squirrel raging @ E-10 (Readied)
Ro -gayne @ F-10 (No readied, minus a spell or two)

If this is the case:

Bray's new turn 1

Move south, breaking LoS with Solus at A-14


Finishing move at A-15.

Ready an action: Sudden Max Firebolt at Squirrel at beginning of his turn


Stats:

AC: 11
HP: 10

Spells:
Resistance
Ray of Frost
Ray of Frost
Colour Spray (Heighted to Lv 3)
Kelgore's Firebolt
Kelgore’s Fire Bolt

[hustlertwo]

Yeah, that's it. I drank a potion and moved, no readied for me.

[Ladorak]

Then my turn stands. You're up

[Sallera]

Oh, and you don't actually break LoS there, so everyone has LoS still.

[hustlertwo]

Move to L-9, activate Arcanist's Gloves, cast a Kelgore's Fire Bolt at Ro-Gayn.

Damage: [roll0], DC is...14, I think. It's on my sheet.

Speak to Squirrel: "If this doesn't work, which is admittedly likely, good luck to you."

Stats:

Position: L-9
HP: 9
AC: 19
Spells left: 2/3 1st level, whatever/whatever 0 (let's hope it doesn't come down to using Ray of Frost or something), 1 use of Arcanist's Gloves left
Fire Resistance 10

[hustlertwo]

I guess we need Bakkan to roll the Reflex save before Squirrel goes, to see if he's still standing or not.

[Bakkan]

Ro-Gayn

[roll0]


EDIT: Ok, I'm down.


hustlertwo:
Thanks for the props. Incidentally, I noticed after I had built Ro-Gayn that it would actually have been better to take the Energy Affinity(Fire) Evoker variant from Complete Mage rather than the domain wizard, as I would not have been forced to prepare the domain spells.

[Sallera]

Squirrel, Round 2

Nice. So much for needing AoOs.

Move to A14.
Standard: Attack Bray.
Attack: [roll0]
Damage: [roll1]
Crit confirm: [roll2]
Crit damage: [roll3]

Stats:HP 20/20, AC16 (16, 16)
Psionically focused
Rage 6 rounds
Xeph bursts: 3/3
Done.

[Ladorak]

Well I'm down too.

The start of your turn triggers my readied action.

18 fire damage, 15 reflex to half

But since you're raging it shouldn't matter.

[Sallera]

That would be correct. Good match, though, once we got past all the rules issues. :smalltongue:

Ref: [roll0]

[Ladorak]

Good game, see you in the final:smallwink:

[hustlertwo]

Wouldn't surprise me in the least. I'll be interested to see if you guys end up against Scorer and Random.

And Bakkan, that's true, although at least by doing it the way you did you got a familiar out of the deal. Not necessarily worth losing the extra spell slots from being a school specialist, but keep in mind that without it, you'd be at 5 HP. That puts you in danger from even unboosted can't-miss spells like KFB or Magic Missile, and boosted ones will really put the spurs to you. I think every level 1 mage needs to be packing at least 6 HP to provide partial protection against something like that. It's far from perfect, of course, but if they're going to one-shot you at least they'll have to work for it a little.