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chuzzum
2009-11-15, 09:12 PM
So I have a player in one of my campaigns who wants to make a Large sized Warforged monk. Obviously this would be reflected by some kind of stat changes and level adjustment, but I'm pretty new at DMing and I can't quite figure out what to do. Any more experienced players have some advice on how to let him increase his size without becoming totally broken? The rest of the party is level 2, by the way.

jokey665
2009-11-15, 09:16 PM
The only large warforged I know of is the warforged charger. But it has four racial hit dice and four level adjustment, so it would definitely not work if the party is level 2.

streakster
2009-11-15, 09:24 PM
You might give him powerful build, in exchange for something. It's sort of like being large.

Tyndmyr
2009-11-15, 09:28 PM
Use standard warforged, make it large, add LA +1. It definitely wont be overpowered.

chuzzum
2009-11-15, 09:30 PM
Use standard warforged, make it large, add LA +1. It definitely wont be overpowered.

I was looking at this (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Improving_Creatures#Size_Increases) and it looks like he'd get +8 Str and +4 Con, for starters, on top of all the other benefits. That seemed a little excessive for +1 LA, especially comparing it to half-ogres and warforged chargers.

The Glyphstone
2009-11-15, 09:33 PM
Ignore that and act like it's an Instantaneous, nondispellable and permanent version of Enlarge Person Construct. He's Large, has +2 Strength and -2 Dexterity in addition to normal Warforged stats.

Dacia Brabant
2009-11-15, 09:36 PM
If you use the rules for size increases (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#sizeIncreases), you end up with something that's IMO worth about +2 LA: that is, +8 Str, +4 Con, -2 Dex, +2 natural armor, -1 AC and -1 to hit due to size, a 10-foot reach, and +1 size increment on damage charts. The natural reach and large-size weaponry alone are worth +1.

Yeah, Powerful Build is probably a better option at your party's level than an actual size increase. Give him that, +2 Str & Con and -2 Dex, and that would be about right for +1 LA: a bit on the strong side actually considering it's on a warforged which is one of the best +0 races, but still acceptable at ECL 2.

Tyndmyr
2009-11-15, 09:37 PM
I was looking at this (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Improving_Creatures#Size_Increases) and it looks like he'd get +8 Str and +4 Con, for starters, on top of all the other benefits. That seemed a little excessive for +1 LA, especially comparing it to half-ogres and warforged chargers.

Yeah, those are good, but you lose dex, AC and attack, all of which will be a problem for a tank.

Edit: Also, I believe there's a -4 modifier on hide checks. Its not on the table, but I could swear its in the rules.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-11-15, 09:38 PM
I was looking at this (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Improving_Creatures#Size_Increases) and it looks like he'd get +8 Str and +4 Con, for starters, on top of all the other benefits.

Using that as a general rule for size increases leads to all sorts of brokenness. The +8 Str and +4 Con is supposed to be a "class feature" of the racial HD required to advance size. Generalizing it to all size increases causes many problems. Allow him to take a special feat, maybe - Oversized Body or something. It's not unprecedented - there's a faerunian feat that gives humans Powerful Build IIRC.

chuzzum
2009-11-15, 09:40 PM
Ignore that and act like it's an Instantaneous, nondispellable and permanent version of Enlarge Person Construct. He's Large, has +2 Strength and -2 Dexterity in addition to normal Warforged stats.

This sounds good to me. I was thinking of a solution like this but I wasn't sure of the exact numbers I should put in the stats. It may still be a little overpowered for +1 LA but he's taking several other decisions that will probably end up bringing his character in line with the rest of the party (Vow of Poverty for one), so I think I'm okay with that.

Edit: Also, yes, we're both aware of the -4 Hide thing, so we're factoring that in. He really just wants to play a big, giant, clumsy monk (???) so I'm trying to let him.

Tyndmyr
2009-11-15, 09:44 PM
He's a monk...I wouldn't worry overly much about him being overpowered.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-15, 09:54 PM
There are classes that grant temporary size increases. Wizards and sorcerers, clerics with the correct domains, ardents with the right mantles, and psychic warriors all get either enlarge person or expansion, which is +2 Str, -2 Dex, reach, and all the +4s that go along with various battlefield maneuvers (such as tripping). A barbarian variant grants Large size while raging.

Likewise, you have half-giants and goliaths, both of which have Powerful Build, and a feat, Jotunbrüd, also grants it.

Half-ogre and half-minotaur are LA +1, and grant actual Large size and a few other benefits.

Perhaps letting him take Jotunbrüd as a feat (similar to Adamantine Body) for Powerful Build, and another feat at 6th level or later to become full-on Large size would be appropriate. If he wants to REALLY be Large size, he can either play a half-ogre/minotaur, or he can go psychic warrior and take expansion. With the Jotunbrüd feat, he could count as Huge as early as level 1 for trips/overruns/etc, though he'd still have the reach of a Large critter.

Coidzor
2009-11-15, 10:52 PM
He's a monk...I wouldn't worry overly much about him being overpowered.

+1 to that.

Otodetu
2009-11-16, 12:06 PM
You know, an enlarge person effect with permanency does it quite easily...

And just being large is not really worth a La +1, the issues with being large are many after all.

Zaq
2009-11-16, 12:11 PM
You know, an enlarge person effect with permanency does it quite easily...

And just being large is not really worth a La +1, the issues with being large are many after all.

RAW, a Warforged is a Living Construct, not a Humanoid, and thus not a viable target for Enlarge Person. (The Expansion and Incarnate powers would work, but Expansion is self-targeting only.) That said, if I were GMing this, I'd still allow it. Just make sure you get some kind of protection against dispelling, because if your Permanency goes bye-bye, you might get very unhappy.

Vizzerdrix
2009-11-16, 12:15 PM
Large size and a +2 str for a +1 LA.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-16, 08:52 PM
Large size and a +2 str for a +1 LA.Could add a bonus to saving throws or a few more small bonuses, just to make that +1 worth it. LA has to be worth a lot to actually be worthwhile, unless you have LA buyoff available, and even then it needs to be something special.

jokey665
2009-11-16, 08:55 PM
Could add a bonus to saving throws or a few more small bonuses, just to make that +1 worth it. LA has to be worth a lot to actually be worthwhile, unless you have LA buyoff available, and even then it needs to be something special.

Large size and the weapon size/reach that comes with it is one of those things that just might be worth the +1. though I agree that +2str/+2con is better and makes more sense than just +2str.

tyckspoon
2009-11-16, 08:57 PM
Could add a bonus to saving throws or a few more small bonuses, just to make that +1 worth it. LA has to be worth a lot to actually be worthwhile, unless you have LA buyoff available, and even then it needs to be something special.

Warforged are already stretching the boundaries of LA 0. I'd have no argument with playing one at +1 to be Large, especially with a Strength boost on top.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-16, 09:00 PM
Warforged are already stretching the boundaries of LA 0. I'd have no argument with playing one at +1 to be Large, especially with a Strength boost on top.I can get a size-adjustment by taking a level in psychic warrior, which is better than +1 LA for that same size-adjustment, as I get the bonus to size when I want it, can be treated as the smaller size when I want it, and also get the extra hit die and hit points, bonuses to saves, skill points, manifesting ability, and 3/4 BAB. Not to mention the bonus feat.

The only time the +1 LA would be really worth the LA is when stacked with that level in psychic warrior.

herrhauptmann
2009-11-16, 09:46 PM
Likewise, you have half-giants and goliaths, both of which have Powerful Build, and a feat, Jotunbrüd, also grants it.


Jotunbrud does not grant large size. It just grants you the benefit of being large in certain cases, trip, disarm, deciding if a monster has enough room in stomach to eat you. Weapon size, and reach do not change.

Besides, how can he be a human from Damarra or Illusk if he's a warforged.

Nattypat
2009-11-16, 09:53 PM
I've had this exact situation with a player wanting to play a large Warforged. I houseruled that he could apply half-ogre, essentially becoming an Ogreforged. It worked out pretty well, though he did meet an untimely death being ripped apart by a cave troll... or two.

Myrmex
2009-11-16, 10:39 PM
Could add a bonus to saving throws or a few more small bonuses, just to make that +1 worth it. LA has to be worth a lot to actually be worthwhile, unless you have LA buyoff available, and even then it needs to be something special.

Warforged come with so many goodies, I think that large size and +2 str would make it a worthwhile LA +1 race.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-16, 10:51 PM
Jotunbrud does not grant large size. It just grants you the benefit of being large in certain cases, trip, disarm, deciding if a monster has enough room in stomach to eat you. Weapon size, and reach do not change.Right. Jotunbrud grants Powerful Build, which is what I was saying.


Besides, how can he be a human from Damarra or Illusk if he's a warforged.He doesn't have to be. The DM is asking how he can let his player be Large sized or something similar, and be fair about it. Regional feats are just for flavor; you don't have to pay attention to the prereqs if the DM says you don't.

chuzzum
2009-11-16, 11:20 PM
Well I went with +2 Str, -2 Dex, +2 Con, and Large size for +1 LA. He seemed to be happy with that arrangement and I think it's a good balance. Thanks for all the helpful replies :smallsmile:

deuxhero
2009-11-16, 11:49 PM
is "+2 Str, -2 Dex, +2 Con" counting or not counting the size adjustment

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-16, 11:51 PM
So I have a player in one of my campaigns who wants to make a Large sized Warforged monk. Obviously this would be reflected by some kind of stat changes and level adjustment, but I'm pretty new at DMing and I can't quite figure out what to do. Any more experienced players have some advice on how to let him increase his size without becoming totally broken? The rest of the party is level 2, by the way.

Have his third level be in Psychic Warrior.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-17, 12:00 AM
Have his third level be in Psychic Warrior.Don't forget to have him take the Talashtora feat!

It's from Secrets of Sarlona, and allows one psionic class to stack with monk for AC, flurry of blows progression, and speed. :smallbiggrin:

It'll help. Tremendously.

First level power can be expansion for Huge-sized goodness.

herrhauptmann
2009-11-17, 12:19 AM
Right. Jotunbrud grants Powerful Build, which is what I was saying.


Powerful build grants access to using larger weapons. You are large for every way that matters in game, except for space and reach.
Jotunbrud does NOT grant access to larger weapons. It does not affect space or reach. It does allow you to count yourself as large in opposed rolls, IF it would be advantageous.

Read Races of Faerun pg 166

chuzzum
2009-11-17, 12:39 AM
is "+2 Str, -2 Dex, +2 Con" counting or not counting the size adjustment

Counting. I mean, those are the only stat adjustments he gets as a result of the change.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-17, 01:01 AM
Powerful build grants access to using larger weapons. You are large for every way that matters in game, except for space and reach.
Jotunbrud does NOT grant access to larger weapons. It does not affect space or reach. It does allow you to count yourself as large in opposed rolls, IF it would be advantageous.

Read Races of Faerun pg 166Ah. I was under the impression that it worked like Powerful Build. Very similar, but not quite.

My mistake; thanks for the correction. Still a great feat, though.