Banning Core. Which classes?

[Frog Dragon]

Me I'd go for
Rogue=Factotum
Wizard=Wu-Jen, Artificer
Sorcerer=Psion, Wilder, Beguiler, Warmage, Warlock
Cleric=Shugenja
Fighter=Warblade, Knight
Paladin=Crusader
Monk=Unarmed Swordsage
Druid=Totemist
Bard=Beguiler
Ranger=Not Sure (Swordsage/Totemist?)
Barbarian=Not Sure

[Yuki Akuma]

I'm not entirely sure what you're looking for here.

But obviously Scouts would replace Rangers.

But, still, there are certainly enough non-core classes to fill all the roles the core classes fill, plus some. Banning the core classes won't break the game (it may in fact help balance it), but I'd be wary of doing it. If only because some people can't handle not playing a character with "Rogue" in the class name, even if they can play a Ninja or Spellthief and just pretend it's a Rogue.

[Kurald Galain]

Okay, I'm not sure what your motivation for banning core is, but if it is "balance" you may want to re-think allowing the artificer (considering it's a top tier class and you're banning the rest of the top tier).

[Vizzerdrix]

I almost did this, but the group had coniption fits over it. So instead, I didn't run the game >:b

[Wings of Peace]

Bard = Beguiler?

What about Dragonfire Inspiration? I mean I'm sure there's way to do party support as a Beguiler too but c'mon the bard definitely has it's niche.

[PhoenixRivers]

Okay, I'm not sure what your motivation for banning core is, but if it is "balance" you may want to re-think allowing the artificer (considering it's a top tier class and you're banning the rest of the top tier).

Erudite (spells to power variant) and Ardent are still in there.

[Draxar]

I'm currently in a game that was originally described as this. It was more 'you can't stay any of these – you can use them to jump off into another class', and that seems to have largely become 'you can't play a pure druid'.

[Optimystik]

What's wrong with Barbarians? Can't you just leave in the parts of core that are fine?

If you must replace Barbarian, use Totemist there and replace Druid with Spirit Shaman instead.

[Frog Dragon]

It's mostly a thought exersize. I'm just looking for alternative ways to portray concepts. My title may have been misleading.

[Myou]

Or you just leave core unchanged and ask everyone to play nice. :smallsigh:

[Foryn Gilnith]

It's mostly a thought exersize. I'm just looking for alternative ways to portray concepts.

Leaving core intact and playing by gentlemens' agreements is standard. It's "boring" (no, not really). The purpose of this is to find a different way; not necessarily a better way.

[Telonius]

Barbarian - really angry Swordsage.

[hamishspence]

Given the reduced armour, glory-hungry tendencies, a throwing specialist option, the high hit dice- would Warblade fit closer to some Barbarian archetypes, than it would to the the Fighter?

[BooNL]

Barbarian = awakened Dire Badger Totemists?

[Eloel]

Rogue = Factotum or Ninja (depending on focus of Rogue)
Wizard = Wu-Jen
Sorcerer = Warlock
Cleric = Favored Soul
Fighter = Warblade
Paladin = Crusader
Monk = Swordsage
Druid = Spirit Shaman
Bard = Beguiler or Marshal (depending on focus of Bard)
Ranger = Scout
Barbarian = Totemist

[LibraryOgre]

Bard = Beguiler?


You obviously missed the memo: Bards are awesome. Beguilers have scabies. :smallwink:

Seriously, though, I would say that, if you don't want some of the core classes in there, start suggesting things to players. "You want to play a ranger? Have you taken a look at the Scout?"

[Nate the Snake]

Rogue -> Factotum (skill monkey), ninja (stealth), spellthief (niche)
Wizard -> Wu jen or psion (general), warmage/beguiler/dread necromancer (specialist), shugenja (replaces wizard in some OA settings)
Sorcerer -> Psion/wilder (general innate magic), warlock and dragonfire adept (magical heritage)
Cleric -> Favored soul (general), shugenja (niche), dragon shaman (support)
Fighter -> Warblade, knight
Paladin -> Crusader
Monk -> Unarmed Swordsage, psychic warrior
Druid -> Spirit shaman (nature-based caster), totemist (shapeshifting)
Bard -> Factotum (jack of all trades), marshal (support), beguiler (trickster), spellthief (magic dabbler)
Ranger -> Scout
Barbarian -> n/a

Not much outside of core adequately replaces the barbarian, but pretty much any other core class concept can be approximated, duplicated, or done better with non-core base classes.

[tyckspoon]

Not much outside of core adequately replaces the barbarian, but pretty much any other core class concept can be approximated, duplicated, or done better with non-core base classes.

Depends on what you want from your Barbarian. The Rage mechanic is nigh-unique; being a Barbarian or doing a class feature swap for it is just about the only way simple way I know of to get it as a class ability, especially as a base class. The concept and general fighting style, however, is pretty easy to come by- want to be an aggressive combatant who soaks things with his ridiculously tough body instead of armor? Warblade, Stone Dragon/Tiger Claw/Iron Heart focus (Tome of Battle is crazy-adaptable for fluff, especially the Warblade.)

[DragoonWraith]

I'd be tempted to just keep the Bard and Barbarian. They're harder to replace, I think, and with enough other books, quite solid anyway.

[lsfreak]

(Tome of Battle is crazy-adaptable for fluff, especially the Warblade.)

It's *annoying.* I keep coming up with concepts to throw at my PC's, and then realize that the best way to do it is another warblade :smalltongue:

If I were banning classes in an attempt for balance, I'd go:
Melee:
Warblade
Crusader
Swordsage
Psychic Warrior
Totemist

Multirole:
Incarnate
Binder
Dragonfire Adept
Factotum

Caster:
Psion
Shadowcaster (with a few quick fixes)
Spirit Shaman

From core, I'd probably keep bard, barbarian and rogue (probably with a little tinkering on the last two). I'd also allow swift hunter rangers. Turn trapfinding and 'turn undead' as feats, but turn undead wouldn't do anything but power devotion feats.

Now, if the goal is to come up with non-core equivalents to the Core classes, that's different. Firstly because it'll keep everything unbalanced without tinkering with some classes, and secondly because some concepts are best filled with core classes (or at least use core classes as bases). However, here's the best I would do:
Barbarian -> Warblade
Bard -> Marshal (with tinkering)
Cleric -> Spirit Shaman
Druid -> Totemist
Fighter -> Psychic Warrior
Monk -> Swordsage (both variants)
Paladin -> Crusader
Ranger -> Scout
Rogue -> Factotum, possibly Spelltheif
Sorcerer -> Warlock (with tinkering) or Binder
Wizard -> Psion

[Yuki Akuma]

There is a class in Oriental Adventures with a 'rage' mechanic - I forget the name, though.

It was a sort of Paladin/Barbarian mix as far as I remember. And, unfortunately, never released in 3.5, even though all the other OA classes were...

Also a Shifter Swordsage/That One PrC That Focuses On Tiger Claw Or Whatever It Is Called makes an okayy barbarian replacement.

God damnit I hate using the internet at the library. Totally separated from my books.

[Frog Dragon]

You probably mean Sohei with the Ki Frenzy thing. They're lawful only though.
The Tiger Claw Prc you're thinking of would probably be Bloodclaw Master.

[sonofzeal]

Rogue=Factotum
Wizard=Psion
Sorcerer=Wilder
Cleric=Favoured Soul
Fighter=Psychic Warrior
Paladin=Crusader
Monk=Unarmed Swordsage
Druid=Totemist
Bard=Beguiler
Ranger=Scout
Barbarian=Warblade

[Indon]

Lower-power setting replacements:

Rogue = Factotum
Wizard = Arcane Swordsage
Sorcerer = Warmage or Binder
Cleric = Healer or Incarnate with tweaked alignment reqs
Fighter = Warblade
Paladin = Crusader
Monk = Unarmed Swordsage or Totemist
Druid or Barbarian = Totemist
Bard = Marshal
Ranger = Scout

[TheThan]

So, what book is this Totemist class i keep seeing in? i've never heard of it and it's attracted my interest.

[Amphetryon]

So, what book is this Totemist class i keep seeing in? i've never heard of it and it's attracted my interest.

Magic of Incarnum. EDIT: As it shares the 'illiteracy' shtick with Barbarian, I'd recommend using it instead of Barb. Scout = Ranger, Factotum subs for Rogue.

[Wings of Peace]

Lower-power setting replacements:

Rogue = Factotum
Wizard = Arcane Swordsage
Sorcerer = Warmage or Binder
Cleric = Healer or Incarnate with tweaked alignment reqs
Fighter = Warblade
Paladin = Crusader
Monk = Unarmed Swordsage or Totemist
Druid or Barbarian = Totemist
Bard = Marshal
Ranger = Scout

How is an Arcane Swordsage low powered...? :smallconfused:

[Amphetryon]

How is an Arcane Swordsage low powered...? :smallconfused:
Doesn't get a familiar. :smalltongue:

[Mongoose87]

Barbarian - really angry Swordsage.

Is he angry because he has the worst recovery mechanic?

[Wings of Peace]

Is he angry because he has the worst recovery mechanic?

Not once he takes Adaptive Style. :smallsmile:

[Sintanan]

Mechanics-wise, you can replace the Barbarian with the Sohei from Oriental Adventures (as stated already). It is 3.0, but in an article in Dragon, there are updates for certain OA classes to convert them to 3.5.

The change to Sohei was fairly simple, they shifted and changed abilities so that the Sohei's Ki Frenzy follows the Rage path. The other abilities were adjusted slightly to make certain abilities more useful at lower levels. But, this is the only base class (to my knowledge) that uses a 'rage' mechanic.


Fluff-wise, the Sohei doesn't fit with the Barbarian, as Sohei are the angsty guardians of Monk temples and monasteries (probably 'cause they're stuck guarding the really horrible Monks?)... and, yes, they are Any Lawful. But fluff is easy to change.


EDIT: Dragon #318, pg 34. 3.5e conversion of Sohei base class.
1st: Ki frenzy 1/day, Weapon Focus
2nd: Deflect Arrows
3rd: Diehard
4th: Ki frenzy 2/day
5th: Strength of mind
6th: Defensive strike
7th: DR 1/-
8th: Ki frenzy 3/day
9th: Mettle
10th: DR 2/-
11th: Greater frenzy
12th: Ki frenzy 4/day
13th: DR 3/-
14th:
15th:
16th: DR 4/-, ki frenzy 5/day
17th: Tireless frenzy
18th:
19th: DR 5/-
20th: Whirlwind frenzy, ki frenzy 6/day

Diehard: Gained at 3rd, replaces Remain Conscious.
Greater Frenzy: +4 STR and DEX, -1 only on flurry of blows, +20 ft to speed during frenzy.
Tireless Frenzy: No longer fatigued at the end of a frenzy.
Whirlwind Frenzy: +6 STR and DEX, no penalty on flurry of blows, +30 ft to speed during frenzy.

[Indon]

How is an Arcane Swordsage low powered...? :smallconfused:

Only has access to two or three schools. Abjuration and some others. I'm not even sure Conjuration is one of them.

[Pyron]

Me I'd go for


Wizard = Truenamer

[Zincorium]

Here's the list of classes my players were comfortable with when I mentioned not using core classes at all (some classes with modifications):

Psion (some powers removed from list)
Psychic warrior
Swordsage
Crusader
Warblade
Scout (with full BAB and some ranger abilities)
Beguiler (no 8th or 9th level spells)
Spirit shaman (changed to only use charisma)
Favored soul (changed to only use wisdom)
Dread necromancer
Warmage
Sorceror (cast in light armor, no familiar, fast metamagic)

Berserker is a feat chain that replaces barbarian rage, can be taken by any interested class. Rogue is replaced by swordsage, beguiler, or scout, depending on concept, no vancian casting at all (setting doesn't support it well).

I don't think I'll actually run into problems with the swordsage, scout, warblade party since we're also using an alternate health system that makes healing much less of an issue.

[Optimystik]

Sohei are the angsty guardians of Monk temples and monasteries (probably 'cause they're stuck guarding the really horrible Monks?)

So, all of them then?


Wizard = Truenamer

Wow, you really hate wizard players :smallannoyed:

[Yuki Akuma]

Mechanics-wise, you can replace the Barbarian with the Sohei from Oriental Adventures (as stated already). It is 3.0, but in an article in Dragon, there are updates for certain OA classes to convert them to 3.5.

The change to Sohei was fairly simple, they shifted and changed abilities so that the Sohei's Ki Frenzy follows the Rage path. The other abilities were adjusted slightly to make certain abilities more useful at lower levels. But, this is the only base class (to my knowledge) that uses a 'rage' mechanic.


Fluff-wise, the Sohei doesn't fit with the Barbarian, as Sohei are the angsty guardians of Monk temples and monasteries (probably 'cause they're stuck guarding the really horrible Monks?)... and, yes, they are Any Lawful. But fluff is easy to change.


EDIT: Dragon #318, pg 34. 3.5e conversion of Sohei base class.
1st: Ki frenzy 1/day, Weapon Focus
2nd: Deflect Arrows
3rd: Diehard
4th: Ki frenzy 2/day
5th: Strength of mind
6th: Defensive strike
7th: DR 1/-
8th: Ki frenzy 3/day
9th: Mettle
10th: DR 2/-
11th: Greater frenzy
12th: Ki frenzy 4/day
13th: DR 3/-
14th:
15th:
16th: DR 4/-, ki frenzy 5/day
17th: Tireless frenzy
18th:
19th: DR 5/-
20th: Whirlwind frenzy, ki frenzy 6/day

Diehard: Gained at 3rd, replaces Remain Conscious.
Greater Frenzy: +4 STR and DEX, -1 only on flurry of blows, +20 ft to speed during frenzy.
Tireless Frenzy: No longer fatigued at the end of a frenzy.
Whirlwind Frenzy: +6 STR and DEX, no penalty on flurry of blows, +30 ft to speed during frenzy.

The Sohei always struck me as a weird class. It doesn't really seem to have any niche that can't just as easily be replaced with, say, a Fighter with the right feat choices.

At least Samurai, Shugenja and Wu Jen were enough of a departure from baseline D&D that they had to make new classes (if only because there was no Ancestral Relic feat when they made the Samurai).

[DragoonWraith]

Only has access to two or three schools. Abjuration and some others. I'm not even sure Conjuration is one of them.
"In general, spells from the schools of abjuration, evocation, and transmutation are most appropriate for a swordsage of this type" - not exactly a strong statement banning other schools.

Even if not... you can cast a 9th level spell every other turn all day long.

And hey, look at that - Time Stop is a Transmutation. Craziness.

Arcane Swordsage is OP, at least assuming you go with the easiest route which is just letting them have at the Sor/Wiz list. Create a separate list just for them, and it could be really cool, maybe, but that would take work. And the "arcane spells in place of maneuvers of an equivalent level" bit would have to go right out. By definition, you can use maneuvers more than spells, and that means the same effect should be higher level than found in spells.

[Yuki Akuma]

Indeed - the Martial equivalent of Time Stop, Time Stand Still, only gives you two full attacks. That's it.