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Rhiannon87
2009-11-16, 02:45 PM
So, after an extended break from one of my group's games, we'll be resuming play this weekend. Everyone had a fair amount of cash when we started out break, and now we're all scrambling to figure out how to spend it.

My goal is to increase my character's AC. She's a 12th-level rogue-fighter-type character wielding a two-handed weapon with an AC of 24. I get hit. A lot. And I don't quite have the hit points to stand up to repeated punishment. I have a couple tricks that will allow me to increase my AC up to 26 (boots of speed & defensive precognition), but I'd like to have a higher regular AC.

I've currently got +2 mithril breastplate with light fortification enchantment and a ring of protection +4 as my protective items. My open slots are face, arms, and waist; the neck slot currently holds an amulet of health +2,and I would prefer to not trade that out if at all possible.

And finally, I have about 20,000 gp to spend. Any books except the Tomes are fine. This is PURELY on items. No feats, no class levels, no stances or something ridiculous like that. Just items.

Thanks!

Edwin
2009-11-16, 02:51 PM
I'm way to lazy to look it up at this point, but I think there's a Ioun stone that gives +1 AC.

Or more, I can't remember.

Douglas
2009-11-16, 02:51 PM
+1 Animated Heavy Shield: 9170 gp for +3 shield AC
Add +2 natural armor to your amulet, no markup as per Magic Item Compendium: 4000 gp for +2 natural AC
Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone: 5000 gp for +1 insight AC

If you're willing to take the penalty on attack rolls, you could make it an animated tower shield instead for an extra +2 AC for negligible extra cost.

Telonius
2009-11-16, 02:56 PM
Wondrous item of 3/day Mirror Image, cast at CL6. Market Price of 12,960gp.
Gives you d4+2 images. Miss chance is often better than AC.

Keshay
2009-11-16, 02:59 PM
If you have any additional monies saved, I'd suggest a Minor Cloak of Displacement. 1 in 5 attacks miss. You'll need 24kgp though.

Myrmex
2009-11-16, 03:07 PM
At 12th level, there are a lot more ways for dangerous monsters to ignore miss chances. Most outsiders will have True Sight, as will most enemy casters. If you don't fight a lot of those, miss chances are good.

Person_Man
2009-11-16, 03:11 PM
Retributive Amulet: Probably one of the most powerful defensive items out there. Every time you take melee damage, that damage is split between you and the attacker. Book of Exalted Deeds pg 116.

Shadowy Diadem: Concealment and immunity to energy drain limited times per day. Cheap. Dragon Magic pg 103.

Shadow Veil: Deflection bonus to AC and limited concealment. Libris Mortis pg 76.

Iku Rex
2009-11-16, 03:12 PM
If you have the ranks in UMD an eternal wand (MIC) could be nice. Mirror image or blink are good candidates.

Other than that douglas has the right idea, except he's got the wrong price for natural armor (it's 8000 for +2). Make it +1 and add a crystal of arrow deflection (MIC, 2500) to your shield instead.

You could also save the money until you can afford the 27 000 gp ring of blinking.

Douglas
2009-11-16, 03:13 PM
Retributive Amulet: Probably one of the most powerful defensive items out there. Every time you take melee damage, that damage is split between you and the attacker. Book of Exalted Deeds pg 116.
Powerful to the point of absurd brokenness, and also updated with an extreme nerf in the Magic Item Compendium.

Also, out of her price range.

Oops, forgot that natural armor cost is x2000, not x1000. Thanks, Iku Rex.

JasonP
2009-11-16, 03:17 PM
Bracers of Armor

Rhiannon87
2009-11-16, 03:32 PM
Bracers of Armor

Already wearing armor. Doesn't stack.

The animated shield idea is a good one, I'll look into that. I may also just cough up the 7,000 to add another +1 bonus to my armor.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-16, 03:36 PM
You mean the 9,000 for a Pearl of Power, right? Because that's a much better investment in the long term.

Douglas
2009-11-16, 03:38 PM
You mean the 9,000 for a Pearl of Power, right? Because that's a much better investment in the long term.
Assuming there's a cleric in the party willing to cast Magic Vestment for you.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-16, 03:42 PM
Assuming there's a cleric in the party willing to cast Magic Vestment for you.Or a Wizard. Most groups have one of the 2, and CL scales fairly quickly compared to the actual bonuses.

lsfreak
2009-11-16, 03:43 PM
Yea, give a pearl of power to your friendly cleric. That'll only be an extra +1, since you spent the money to get a +2 breastplate, but oh well. Still cheaper in the long run.

I second cloak of displacement though. It's just as effective against touch attacks and regular attacks, negates natural 20's, and does way more than the equivalent amount of AC could do. Biggest problem being that you need to hold out another 4000gp.

You could get an item with +2 dex. Using MIC rules, just stick it on your boots of speed.

Douglas
2009-11-16, 04:12 PM
Or a Wizard. Most groups have one of the 2, and CL scales fairly quickly compared to the actual bonuses.
Magic Vestment is a Cleric only spell. Wizards don't get it.

Rhiannon87
2009-11-16, 04:13 PM
Yea, give a pearl of power to your friendly cleric. That'll only be an extra +1, since you spent the money to get a +2 breastplate, but oh well. Still cheaper in the long run.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Sorry. Friendly cleric in this party is just... yeah. Our cleric is, tragically, played by the guy who shows up to game once every three months or so. And our wizard is better spent doing other things than buffing the not-so-great rogue/fighter... like buffing the optimized tanks or summoning monsters into flanking position for the rogues. Or turning CR 15 enemies into glass statues.

Also, the breastplate was loot. I spent no money on it. :D



You could get an item with +2 dex. Using MIC rules, just stick it on your boots of speed.

Already got one on my hands. That's why I was asking here-- I felt like I'd exhausted nearly every available avenue to increase my AC. DEX, armor bonus, ring of protection... natural armor was out due to the whole neck-slot-filled thing, and I figured I couldn't use a shield due to having a two-handed weapon.

I'm pretty sure I'm gonna go with the animated shield idea. Ups my AC to 27 before I do any of my personal buffs. And I still have a lot of cash left over to buy other goodies.

lsfreak
2009-11-16, 04:26 PM
And our wizard is better spent doing other things than buffing the not-so-great rogue/fighter... like buffing the optimized tanks or summoning monsters into flanking position for the rogues. Or turning CR 15 enemies into glass statues.

Well, Magic Vestment (and GMW) are hours/level duration, so they should only need to cast it on you at the beginning of the day. The lack of a cleric would be problematic. A possibility would be an item of CL20Magic Vestments 1/day (+5 enchancement bonus to armor for 20 hours), but that's approaching the realm of "rather cheesy" (and still costs 22000gp).

I would seriously consider saving up for a cloak of displacement though. It's 20% miss chance no matter how high your enemy's attack bonus is.

Also, you can get natural armor. Again, thanks to MIC's stat-stacking rules, see page 234.

ghashxx
2009-11-16, 04:32 PM
Adding another +1 to your armor is more expensive than grabbing a different item. And besides, that makes it just that much more expensive to add special effects to the armor later. Using the bracers of retribution from the BoED sounds like a solid bet if you're allowed to use that version. You'll get hit, but for less damage and they get hit too.

For concealment giving miss chance, making a custom item (shudder in fear) using Blacklight (Spell Compendium pg 30) would be nice. It's a 3rd level arcane spell that makes a 20' radius area of pure blackness that can't be seen through...except for the caster so long as you're inside the area. So long as this sucker is turned on you've got 50% miss chance against you, and since in melee they're inside the radius and can't see that means they don't get dex bonus to AC...FLATFOOTED OPPONENTS!!!
Maybe try and get this thing to only be a 5' or 10' radius to limit how much your allies get hit with it.

Vizzerdrix
2009-11-16, 04:57 PM
Adding another +1 to your armor is more expensive than grabbing a different item. And besides, that makes it just that much more expensive to add special effects to the armor later.


Yeah but other than fortification, is their anything even worth putting on armor?

(Honesty! I have no clue what you should do with armor and enchanting :smallfrown:)

Dimers
2009-11-16, 05:36 PM
Shield and insight seem to be the two areas you don't have covered already.

For an insight bonus to AC: make your weapon "parrying" (XPH p. 166, costs 8000 gp rather than +X enhancement) for +1 AC and +1 all saves.

For shield bonus, Animated Shield looks good (though I don't know where to see the details -- probably MIC, which I don't own). Using UMD on a wand or eternal wand of shield would give a +4 bonus, last a shorter time (I assume), and not require you to lug around a shield. It'd also work against incorporeal touch attacks and kill magic missiles. Make it a wand of extended shield, and it'd last a minimum of 6 rounds: CL3 * 2.

Another untyped bonus you could use is the defending weapon enhancement, but that forces you to choose between attack and defense.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-16, 08:20 PM
Meh. AC is useless at higher levels. I wouldn't worry much about it as more than a token defense, really.

Adding another +1 to your armor is more expensive than grabbing a different item. And besides, that makes it just that much more expensive to add special effects to the armor later. Using the bracers of retribution from the BoED sounds like a solid bet if you're allowed to use that version. You'll get hit, but for less damage and they get hit too.

For concealment giving miss chance, making a custom item (shudder in fear) using Blacklight (Spell Compendium pg 30) would be nice. It's a 3rd level arcane spell that makes a 20' radius area of pure blackness that can't be seen through...except for the caster so long as you're inside the area. So long as this sucker is turned on you've got 50% miss chance against you, and since in melee they're inside the radius and can't see that means they don't get dex bonus to AC...FLATFOOTED OPPONENTS!!!
Maybe try and get this thing to only be a 5' or 10' radius to limit how much your allies get hit with it.Get a couple of (relatively cheap) wands of Extended blacklight, and a 2000 gp Ring of the Darkhidden (from the MIC). You're permanently invisible to darkvision, and barring true seeing, that's the only way to see in a blacklight. That's 50% miss chance and inability to be targeted right there.

Getting a wand of mirror image and the blur enhancement on your armor (see MIC again) will give you stackable miss chances, as well; while blur won't stack with the blacklight/ring combo, mirror image does...kind of. The blacklight will affect all of your images, which don't all have to be in your space, meaning that they'll confuse the issue as to which space you're in. And if the cantrip is dispelled or negated, you still have a lot of images to use as decoys.

There's also blink and greater blink. They certainly don't stack, but that doesn't mean you can't use them both at different times. They do, however, stack with all of the other miss chances mentioned, and true seeing won't do much of anything without access to a ghost touch weapon.

There's also silent image and similar spells; create an illusion of a solid wall, and you can jump in and out of it to grant yourself concealment. Also helps when trying to Hide and effectively become invisible. Great for utility, too.

Also, there's Leomund's tiny hut; so long as you're willing to do some sniping, it should help considerably for keeping you out of sight (but not out of mind).

Obscuring mist, smokesticks and such are good ones as well, so long as you've got a way to pierce the concealment. I suggest some way to get touchsight.

You can always use a bullseye lantern and a pyrotechnics spell to blind enemies (and the lantern means there's no chance of blinding your party). Darkstalker is a great feat to add, as well.

The Cloak Dance feat (XPH) will let you (essentially) get a version of Hide in Plain Sight, if you have a decent Hide score. All you need is a cloak and the prereqs for the feat.

Speaking of the XPH, check out the concealing amorpha and greater concealing amorpha powers. They aren't pierced by true seeing, though I'm not sure about how it interacts with touchsight.

...

As far as ACTUAL AC bonuses go, stock up on small AC bonuses. Six +1s will be considerably cheaper than one +6. Armor, shield, natural armor, deflection, dodge, insight, morale, exalted, vile, and as many untyped bonuses as you can get. Psionics is good for several of them, and take a few levels in factotum and a few instances of Font of Inspiration if you've got a good Int score (as it's a cheap and easy way to get rather sizable bonuses to your saves, AC, and attack and damage rolls). You also get bumps to your skill monkey pursuits. Best of all, it costs no money and gives you more than just AC bonuses. Does cost some levels and feats, however.

ghashxx
2009-11-16, 08:27 PM
Yeah but other than fortification, is their anything even worth putting on armor?

(Honesty! I have no clue what you should do with armor and enchanting :smallfrown:)

While expensive, the +2 Energy Immunity is really nice to have. There's a spell that can make you an ice, or fire, based creature. Add onto that the energy immunity to fire or ice (respectively) and presto, immunity to two types of magic and one of them heals you. Past that it's pretty much nill.


Get a couple of (relatively cheap) wands of Extended blacklight, and a 2000 gp Ring of the Darkhidden (from the MIC). You're permanently invisible to darkvision, and barring true seeing, that's the only way to see in a blacklight. That's 50% miss chance and inability to be targeted right there.

I really like all of the suggestions Lycanthromancer made, but a quick addendum is that the blacklight spell doesn't let darkvision work, so the ring of darkhidden isn't necessary which= more money!

good_lookin_gus
2009-11-16, 08:39 PM
Could the Defending (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#defending) property be placed on armor/shield spikes? It probably wouldn't be useful for the OP, but so many parties have casters chaining GMW that this could actually be a worthwhile investment at later levels.

Iku Rex
2009-11-16, 08:43 PM
AC is useless at higher levels.Not true.
filler

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-16, 08:56 PM
Not true.
fillerConsidering that A.) you have to sink a huge amount into pumping your AC to work against the big bruisers to get it to be worthwhile against them, and B.) many opponents can completely bypass AC and still screw up your day no matter how much money you put into it, I'd say it really is. Getting it up to the point of usefulness drains too many resources that can be used to become nearly immune to AC-targeting attacks.

You're better off paying token attention to AC and going for miss-chances and immunities, instead.

Pyro_Azer
2009-11-16, 09:06 PM
Not to mention most high level monsters can cast spells and it is in their best interest to stay out of your reach, so attacking falls by the wayside.

ghashxx
2009-11-16, 09:08 PM
Could the Defending (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#defending) property be placed on armor/shield spikes? It probably wouldn't be useful for the OP, but so many parties have casters chaining GMW that this could actually be a worthwhile investment at later levels.

Yep, they count as martial weapons. But since they count as a normal weapon, a +6 enhancement bonus to weapons is wicked costly.

good_lookin_gus
2009-11-16, 09:13 PM
Yep, they count as martial weapons. But since they count as a normal weapon, a +6 enhancement bonus to weapons is wicked costly.

+6?

A Defending weapon can cost as little as +2. The rest of the enhancement can be increased with Greater Magic Weapon.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-16, 09:23 PM
+6?

A Defending weapon can cost as little as +2. The rest of the enhancement can be increased with Greater Magic Weapon.Yup. A +1 defending weapon.

Tossed on shield spikes, two spells (greater magic weapon and magic vestment) can up your AC by upwards of 8 points.

You might consider getting access to alter self. You could pull up around +7 natural armor, just with that.

Douglas
2009-11-16, 09:37 PM
Meh. AC is useless at higher levels.
:smallamused:

Having played in a rather competitive ridiculously high level arena with very few house rules and some pretty extreme optimization, I must disagree. Well optimized AC can be extremely important. Physical attack is one of the few things that is actually difficult to become immune to in a way that can't be bypassed, and pretty much every miss chance and other non-AC means of not getting hit can be defeated. AC, however, cannot be overcome by anything but high attack bonus, and AC can be boosted much higher than attack bonus can.

In more normal games most of those factors do not apply, but it is still the defense that will be tested most, and even if you can't get it high enough to make monsters miss you can get it high enough to force them to not use Power Attack.

natural armor was out due to the whole neck-slot-filled thing
Except it isn't. See Magic Item Compendium pages 233 and 234.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-16, 09:44 PM
:smallamused:

Having played in a rather competitive ridiculously high level arena with very few house rules and some pretty extreme optimization, I must disagree. Well optimized AC can be extremely important. Physical attack is one of the few things that is actually difficult to become immune to in a way that can't be bypassed, and pretty much every miss chance and other non-AC means of not getting hit can be defeated. AC, however, cannot be overcome by anything but high attack bonus, and AC can be boosted much higher than attack bonus can.

In more normal games most of those factors do not apply, but it is still the defense that will be tested most, and even if you can't get it high enough to make monsters miss you can get it high enough to force them to not use Power Attack.

Except it isn't. See Magic Item Compendium pages 233 and 234.I'd rather have multiple miss chances, high saves, and access to spells such as greater ironguard any day.

Douglas
2009-11-16, 09:49 PM
And what do you do when someone has True Seeing and a glassteel Ghost Touch weapon? Or uses his Unarmed Strike and other natural attacks, all with Ghost Touch? Such things, and a great many more, were ubiquitous in this arena.

Name just about any non-AC general purpose defense you can imagine (other than high saves; no one bothered with spells that required someone to fail a save in this arena because almost no one ever failed) and I can name a way to bypass it that was in common use there.

ericgrau
2009-11-16, 09:52 PM
Ah, the trap of the melee rogue. Dump the two handed weapon, at least for now. The added strength damage isn't much. Eventually you might want to add animated to the shield, once you're willing to give up 2 AC (getting hit ~15% more often) to get your damage back. Even if you don't have proficiency a MW buckler has no armor check penalty and thus no non-proficiency penalty.

So that gives us:
dusty rose prism ioun stone: 1 AC, 5,000 gp
buckler: 4 AC, 9,000 gp (or 5 AC for heavy shield)
breastplate upgrade: 1 AC, 7,000 gp
TOTAL: 30 AC (or 31), 21,000 gp
Future: upgrade armor and shield evenly, ring waits until both are maxed out
Getting +1 natural armor via MIC would reduce the above cost by 5,000 gp, or give 1 more AC for a total cost of 22,000 gp.

Looking at a few CR 10 monsters (4 of them is an ECL 14 encounter), that's about a 60% miss chance (EDIT: 70% using the OP's tricks for +2). Getting a similar miss chance with concealment items is both far beyond your price range and takes a precious action to activate. Within your budget you could almost get 20%. Expendables are expended. Yeah, rumors about their worth is total bull and needs to stop for the sake of the 100th misguided dying rogue.

Later when you have more money a ring of blinking might be worth it though because it gives sneak attack. Unless you have a party wizard in which case greater invisiblity is probably better. But true seeing, see invisibility, blind fight (popular among dragons) and similar abilities foil both.

Dusk Eclipse
2009-11-16, 09:55 PM
.... blind fight (popular among dragons) and similar abilities foil both.

That is the reason the Darkstalker* feat was invented for


*Lords of Madness

herrhauptmann
2009-11-16, 09:56 PM
Retaliation armor (MIC) is a flat cost. Deals 1d6 every time an attack deals 10 points of damage to you. Not as good as the amulet (either the expensive version or the nerfed one), but it deals more when you drop to negative hitpoints.
Healing armor (MIC) also a flat cost. Activates as a standard, or as a free when your hitpoints go from positives to between -1 and -9 (useless if you get knocked to -40 in one hit)
If the DM is a jerk, blueshine armor can be awesome. Bonus to hide (meh) and immune to rust/acid damage. Also a flat cost.

I agree, stacking miss chances would be better than trying to boost AC at this point.

Gnaeus
2009-11-16, 09:58 PM
:smallamused:

Having played in a rather competitive ridiculously high level arena with very few house rules and some pretty extreme optimization, I must disagree. Well optimized AC can be extremely important. Physical attack is one of the few things that is actually difficult to become immune to in a way that can't be bypassed, and pretty much every miss chance and other non-AC means of not getting hit can be defeated. AC, however, cannot be overcome by anything but high attack bonus, and AC can be boosted much higher than attack bonus can.

In more normal games most of those factors do not apply, but it is still the defense that will be tested most, and even if you can't get it high enough to make monsters miss you can get it high enough to force them to not use Power Attack.


I do agree that having an optimized AC can be valuable to a high level character.

However, given the OPs level 12 character with a paltry 26 ac, I don't think you are going to reach a point where it makes any difference without spending way more than the OP has, of resources better spent elsewhere.

AC can be overcome by about 10,000 different things. Touch attacks. Save or suck spells. No save just suck spells. AOEs. High attack + is not close to the best way to beat high AC.

ericgrau
2009-11-16, 10:01 PM
Assuming wraithstrike cheese and/or monsters with nothing but spells or SLAs. This is dungeon crawling not PvP. And I'd assume that he has a cloak of resistance as well. Or in the highly unlikely event that the monsters really were 100% spells or SLAs, and the DM wasn't so cheesy that saves always fail (strange, I know), I'd tell him to reroll as a caster or a monk. Even a monk with a greatsword and mid BAB would do great b/c few of the mainly low DC, low CL monster abilities would land. And b/c cure potions break your own SR and they don't have a cleric anyway. Then he's free to whack at the inevitably low HP low AC monsters that have such abilities.

Eldariel
2009-11-16, 10:11 PM
What's your Dex? 'cause if you can afford it (Dex-wise), Celestial Armor could be a major upgrade over your Mithril Breastplate. Dex 26 or so would easily make that happen (it's got composite AC max of 3 points higher than Mithril Breastplate). Other than that, yeah, Natural Armor + Ring of Protection + Dusty Prism Ioun Stone + Animated Shield is the easiest means of pumping raw AC.

If you can borrow 7000gp, you could afford Ring of Blinking. You could keep it online your entire adventuring day; whenever you bump into a hostile, you'd already be blinking and if you're fast enough, the speed reduction wouldn't delay the party at all. The +1 Displacement-property [MiC] on armor would also give you access to Swift Action Displacement 1/day. Both are 50% vs. True Sightless opponents. Blinking is 20% even then. As a bonus, Blinking would qualify you for SA against most opponents (since you strike as Invisible under it).


Note that when in hostile area, you can maintain total defense; given it takes a standard action each round, sanity says that you can proceed at half speed while staying in total defense. Many classes can't benefit of this due to flat-footedness at the start of the combat, but Rogue's Uncanny Dodge means you keep the bonuses anyways, and your likely Tumble-ranks make it all the more efficient (by Oriental Adventures, 15 ranks = +4 Dodge-bonus to AC in defensive fighting and +8 in Total Defense; core only lists the 5 ranks = +3 Defensive Fighting, +6 Total Defense-options).

If you had something like Blinking or Greater Invisibility that enables you to hit relatively easily, you could even afford Defensive Fighting in lieu of your attack runs.

dspeyer
2009-11-16, 10:11 PM
Many potions of reduce person?

You get +2 AC (+1 size and +1 dex) and it also helps your hide skill a lot. Costs you damage, especially with 1.5*str.

A psionic tattoo of augmented compression is the same thing but twice as powerful.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-16, 10:32 PM
And what do you do when someone has True Seeing and a glassteel Ghost Touch weapon? Or uses his Unarmed Strike and other natural attacks, all with Ghost Touch? Such things, and a great many more, were ubiquitous in this arena.

Name just about any non-AC general purpose defense you can imagine (other than high saves; no one bothered with spells that required someone to fail a save in this arena because almost no one ever failed) and I can name a way to bypass it that was in common use there.Tower shield wielded by an unseen servant. Raven familiar on your shoulder with a readied action to call the command word on a hat that's really a shrink item'd cone. (100% miss-chance). Greater/concealing amorpha. Contingencied dimension door (likewise 100% miss-chance). Abrupt jaunt (whaddaya know, another 100% miss-chance).

Not to mention stacking most of what I mentioned earlier.

I have more if you want them.

Douglas
2009-11-16, 10:51 PM
Tower shield wielded by an unseen servant.
Too heavy for the Unseen Servant to lift.


Raven familiar on your shoulder with a readied action to call the command word on a hat that's really a shrink item'd cone. (100% miss-chance).
The cone takes the damage instead of you. It shatters in one hit, and your opponent has multiple attacks.


Greater/concealing amorpha.
Any of a fairly substantial list of ways to ignore concealment entirely, regardless of its nature or source.


Contingencied dimension door (likewise 100% miss-chance).
(Greater) Anticipate Teleportation. Dispelling. Even if it works perfectly, it only works once.


Abrupt jaunt (whaddaya know, another 100% miss-chance).
(Greater) Anticipate Teleportation. Multiple attacks at range. 1/round due to using an immediate action.


Not to mention stacking most of what I mentioned earlier.
True Seeing, Ghost Trap, True Seeing again, the Tiny Hut gives away where you are and doesn't prevent your opponent entering it, Blindsight/Touchsight/Tremorsense/<insert non-visual sense here>...

The cone trick got you one blocked attack - maybe - and the Contingency Dimension Door either sent you right into a trap or amounted to giving up and running away.

Anyway, this is all rather beside the point for the most part, and if we want to continue this discussion I think we should take it elsewhere.

charl
2009-11-16, 10:51 PM
How do you feel about psionics? The Heroic Ectoplasmic skin gives an untyped AC bonus and it doesn't take up any actual slot. It also gives a nifty bonus to saves.

EDIT: I was a bit wrong. The skin is called Skin of the Hero and gives a +3 deflection bonus to AC, as well as resistance bonuses to all saves and enhancement bonuses to attack rolls.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-16, 11:49 PM
Spoiler'd for off-topicness, but here for those interested in reading it:
Too heavy for the Unseen Servant to lift.Use a Small shield made of darkwood. Just over 11 lbs, and fully capable of giving full cover to anyone in that space. Since the unseen servant isn't actually a creature, it can fit in your space and provide you with cover. Easy.


The cone takes the damage instead of you. It shatters in one hit, and your opponent has multiple attacks.Depends on what the hat is made of, how many layers it has, how large and thick it is, and how well I've prepared it in advance. Wood? Yeah, it's good for one solid hit, and for antimagic fields. Iron or ironwood? Could very well break. Mithral? Possibly not. Adamantine or obdurium? I doubt it. Riverine? No. All attainable easily enough, with a bit of spellslinging.


Any of a fairly substantial list of ways to ignore concealment entirely, regardless of its nature or source.Depends exactly on what I'm doing and how you're countering. Most of those work against most foes; the ones that don't you can feel free to use other strategies on. Depending on level, I have dozens, all of which can be used by the same wizard at mid-to-high levels (and low-level mooks can be countered by low-level spells, such as blink with little they can do about it), with plenty of room left over for offensive moves.

On the other hand, just how many counters can a single aggressor actually have available? My wizard can be prepared for dozens, if not hundreds, of eventualities, and can change them every single day without issue. Any single foe that isn't a spellcaster himself simply can't compete (anybody that tried would have to be a one-trick pony, really). There are exceptions, but those are mostly high tier 3 and above (which is basically ToB classes, factotums, and, yes, spellcasters). Tier 4s or below? No chance after level 7.

Behold, the power of cheese.


(Greater) Anticipate Teleportation. Dispelling. Even if it works perfectly, it only works once.It worked the first time, which is enough. One round is enough for any number of one-shot neuterings and/or kills.

And like I said, how many opponents are going to have everything necessary to counter EVERYTHING a single wizard can pull out of his hat?


(Greater) Anticipate Teleportation. Multiple attacks at range. 1/round due to using an immediate action.Archers have other issues, such as wind walls, and I can use my dimension door, etc to get behind cover, if any is available. If my one or two tricks that won't work against whatever is thrown at me don't work, then I can simply use another strategy. If I ever played wizards, they'd be like Batman: crazy prepared. It's not like I can't save ALL of my lower level spells (and most of my higher level spells) for defensive measures, and use a few select spell slots for offense, along with the dozens, if not hundreds of scrolls (and possibly wands), and other offensive strategies I prepped weeks ago. See: animate dead, lesser planar binding, greater planar binding, shrink item'd boulders, explosive runes, symbols of pain/death/etc dipped in quintessence, and on and on and on. Apart from item creation, most of those don't really even require much down-time.

This is why I don't play wizards, in fact. Way too easy to destroy the opposition, even when the DM is being a hardass.


True Seeing, Ghost Trap, True Seeing again, the Tiny Hut gives away where you are and doesn't prevent your opponent entering it, Blindsight/Touchsight/Tremorsense/<insert non-visual sense here>...There are ways around true seeing, such as the Invisible Spell metamagic feat. Blindsight and Tremorsense are countered by Darkstalker, just staying out of range, or not touching the ground. Touchsight you can counter via staying out of range, or various wall spells, or otherwise making sure your opponent can't go near you. Give him a planar bound monstrosity that's getting up in his face, and I doubt he'll have much time for you. Bring along an army you've conjured up, and while you're holed up he'll be too busy surviving to worry about the guy who's just sitting there, letting his minions do the work.

Depends on the enemy, really; Int and Con are pretty much all I have to worry about (and Con can be ignored, though with some peril in early levels), with maybe some Dex until polymorph is reached. The only skills most wizards will have are Concentration, Spellcraft, and Knowledge skills, so I should be able to tell what my opponents ate for breakfast on their 3rd birthdays. Finding out opponents' abilities shouldn't be too hard.


The cone trick got you one blocked attack - maybe - and the Contingency Dimension Door either sent you right into a trap or amounted to giving up and running away.The cone might've blocked one attack, or a set of attacks, but that's really good enough. If you want your wizard to keep the hat, a quick mending spell will make things right again, after the battle. Meanwhile, you used your full-attack to finally get into that foot-thick adamantine/ironwood/obdurium/riverine/whatever wall, which gives me another round of spellcasting to perform whatever emergency measures are suitable to the situation. And I can always pull out a second hat using a move action; I can have dozens, or even hundreds of those things. HHHs are wonderful things.

I've also had access to etherealness since I got a lesser planar bound nightmare at level 11, or since level 7 if my wizard was an outsider (using polymorph and Assume Supernatural Ability and/or Metamorphic Transfer, if I wanted to bother with the prereqs for it). Sniping from out of the ground can be really useful, and it's hard to catch my Flyby Attack wizard if you don't know which portion of the ground/wall/ceiling he's hiding in. He also has access to astral projection, which means that killing me won't do much. And beyond that, at higher levels I have clones. Also, simulacrums. Also, prismatic sphere + stoneshaped domes while I cast out of ring gates held by my planar bound monstrosities. Etc.

Betcha I could flatten most epic creatures before I reach wizard level 12. No boast, and no joke. Wizards are absolutely friggin' insane.

And I absolutely hate them for it. Psionics are much better. :smallwink:


Anyway, this is all rather beside the point for the most part, and if we want to continue this discussion I think we should take it elsewhere.Fair enough.

Douglas
2009-11-17, 12:25 AM
Ok, some of what I'm about to assert may go beyond what is near universal in the arena I mentioned. None of it is particularly rare there, though. It is also utterly beyond the bounds of anything likely to be relevant to the OP, but hey, if you're positing the combination of all of these I'm not going to hesitate putting all the counters in too.

Use a Small shield made of darkwood. Just over 11 lbs, and fully capable of giving full cover to anyone in that space. Since the unseen servant isn't actually a creature, it can fit in your space and provide you with cover. Easy.
Reading the exact text of the Tower Shield, I think the RAW is that the unseen servant would get total cover but you would not. Additionally, the unseen servant "must give up its attacks" and it doesn't have any attacks in the first place to give up.


Depends on what the hat is made of, how many layers it has, how large and thick it is, and how well I've prepared it in advance. Wood? Yeah, it's good for one solid hit, and for antimagic fields. Iron or ironwood? Could very well break. Mithral? Possibly not. Adamantine or obdurium? I doubt it. Riverine? No. All attainable easily enough, with a bit of spellslinging.
Riverine I'll grant you, but anything short of that will get smashed in one hit by anything that actually cares about weapon damage. As for Riverine, Disintegrate cast by a Schismed mind (Still and Silent of course) or just Quickened would get rid of it and let the full attack continue.


Depends exactly on what I'm doing and how you're countering. Most of those work against most foes; the ones that don't you can feel free to use other strategies on. Depending on level, I have dozens, all of which can be used by the same wizard at mid-to-high levels (and low-level mooks can be countered by low-level spells, such as blink with little they can do about it), with plenty of room left over for offensive moves.
If you're worried about mooks and similar threats, AC is just fine as a defense even without much optimization.


On the other hand, just how many counters can a single aggressor actually have available? My wizard can be prepared for dozens, if not hundreds, of eventualities, and can change them every single day without issue. Any single foe that isn't a spellcaster himself simply can't compete (anybody that tried would have to be a one-trick pony, really). There are exceptions, but those are mostly high tier 3 and above (which is basically ToB classes, factotums, and, yes, spellcasters). Tier 4s or below? No chance after level 7.
The character I built for the arena I mentioned has every single counter I have given so far, all at once, plus dozens more. This is typical there. And yes, he's a spellcaster.


Behold, the power of cheese.
Indeed. Feel free to head on over to Last Man Standing DnD lvl50 gestalt (http://rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=7698&date=1257559604) if you feel like putting it to the test against highly optimized high level foes.


It worked the first time, which is enough. One round is enough for any number of one-shot neuterings and/or kills.
Heh. One-shot kill. Good luck with that against the kind of defenses a seriously optimized opponent can have.


And like I said, how many opponents are going to have everything necessary to counter EVERYTHING a single wizard can pull out of his hat?
In a normal game, not many. However, even a normal game may have opponents that do have counters for the first two or three things you try, and by the time you pull out the rest it might be too late.


The cone might've blocked one attack, or a set of attacks, but that's really good enough. If you want your wizard to keep the hat, a quick mending spell will make things right again, after the battle. Meanwhile, you used your full-attack to finally get into that foot-thick adamantine/ironwood/obdurium/riverine/whatever wall, which gives me another round of spellcasting to perform whatever emergency measures are suitable to the situation. And I can always pull out a second hat using a move action; I can have dozens, or even hundreds of those things. HHHs are wonderful things.
How well does your hat deal with a full attack routine consisting of 50 attacks with an average total damage in excess of 30000? Also, Disintegrate.


Betcha I could flatten most epic creatures before I reach wizard level 12. No boast, and no joke. Wizards are absolutely friggin' insane.

And I absolutely hate them for it. Psionics are much better. :smallwink:
Yeah, optimized wizards can flatten any standard monster quite a few levels higher than the wizard. So can just about anything if it's optimized well enough. When dealing with levels of optimization that high, it's a given that you can massacre standard stuff. What remains to be determined is how you stack up against other optimized material, and AC is the one defense that I have found that a highly optimized opponent cannot simply blow right through with the right counter.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-17, 01:06 AM
:smallamused:

Having played in a rather competitive ridiculously high level arena with very few house rules and some pretty extreme optimization, I must disagree. Well optimized AC can be extremely important. Physical attack is one of the few things that is actually difficult to become immune to in a way that can't be bypassed, and pretty much every miss chance and other non-AC means of not getting hit can be defeated. AC, however, cannot be overcome by anything but high attack bonus, and AC can be boosted much higher than attack bonus can.

Optimized AC, yes. However, in such competitions, the Race, class, feats, and spell selections are geared to a singular focus. AC.

It takes a ridiculous investment to achieve that. And most of it is not item based.

For a character already designed without AC as a singular focus (as this character is), the best bet is miss chances. A Ring of Blinking is a fine addition, and is essentially like having an AC that is 10 points higher than your foe's Attack bonus, in most cases. If they have a +30? Your effective AC is 40. If they have a +50? Then your AC is effectively 60. 50% miss chance is awesome. Combine with Mirror Image, and you're golden.

EDIT: And level 50 Gestalt? Sigh. I can shatter worlds with level 13 characters, if strict RAW is used. Why would I need the other 37 levels?

Example:Level 13 rogue.
Max Skill UMD. Circlet of Charisma, cloak of charisma +2, base Cha 18, Venerable age, +3 stat into charisma from levels, and lesser aasimar. Skill focus and Magical aptitude. 28 charisma, 16 ranks, +8 misc = +33 UMD check (with synergy, it can be a +37 for scrolls... enough to activate any scroll up to level 9.

Scroll: Simulacrum (2200 xp paid). Scroll: Gate.
1) Use gate scroll (100% chance) - Call a solar. Service: Give me a lock of your hair.

2) Use Simulacrum: Create Solar.
3) Use Solar's Wish SLA: Emulate Simulacrum, without XP cost or material component. - Create Solar
4) Repeat 3.

5) After you have enough, use them to gain as many of any creature of 40 hd or less as you like. That's most of the lords of the 9 hells, most dragons, 40th level gestalt characters, whatever. Make a billion of each. Who cares?

6) Create an empire where Asmodeus is the typical commoner farmer.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-17, 01:09 AM
<Everything mentioned here>Ah. I can see now what kind of cheese you've been smoking. Definitely powerful stuff. The Wish and The Word, and that kind of stuff. Ooh. That might actually be fun. Excessively time-consuming, considering how long it takes me to make my builds, but fun.

Would this level of cheese be banned from that competition? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7298120&postcount=11)

sofawall
2009-11-17, 01:24 AM
Douglas:
I was thinking, as you were posting: "Oh, he must be a fairly well prepared caster!" I proceed to open that last spoiler and see you are level 50 gestalt. I am no longer impressed in the least.

Douglas
2009-11-17, 01:25 AM
Ah. I can see now what kind of cheese you've been grating. Definitely powerful stuff. The Wish and The Word, and that kind of stuff. Ooh. That might actually be fun. Excessively time-consuming, considering how long it takes me to make my builds, but fun.

Would this level of cheese be banned from that competition? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7298120&postcount=11)
The Wish and The Word doesn't actually work unless there's a version different from the one I read.

From the house rules:

Spells (including spell-like and supernatural abilities duplicating them) can't create permanent magic items, non-magic items created by spells are worthless and can't be used as material components, focuses, in magic item creation or epic spell development.

So no Wish magic item factory.

I am fairly certain the fast time Genesis plane, and particularly having Simulacrum minions attacking from it through a Gate during a fight, would be banned. Feel free to bring all the Solar Simulacrums you can fit into the arena, though.

Douglas:
I was thinking, as you were posting: "Oh, he must be a fairly well prepared caster!" I proceed to open that last spoiler and see you are level 50 gestalt. I am no longer impressed in the least.
The vast majority of it can be accomplished at levels much lower than 50. Most of it is just having a bunch of Persistent spells, and that can be accomplished even before epic. It's just that the only characters I have bothered to build with such thorough preparations are my character in that arena and Team Solars (see sig).

Cyrion
2009-11-17, 10:30 AM
Yeah but other than fortification, is their anything even worth putting on armor?

(Honesty! I have no clue what you should do with armor and enchanting :smallfrown:)

I've had a couple of low-dex thumpers get some good mileage out of agility- adds a bonus to reflex saves.

Keshay
2009-11-17, 10:51 AM
Is there some way to mitigate or eliminate the 20% miss chance from Blinking? Boosting my enemy's defence while enhancing my own does not seem to be the best route. For casters and a solo characters this would not be an issue, but for a melee character in a team trying to kill his enemy before it gets to the squishies, this seems like a poor choice for team success.

Any intelligent enemy would move on to the next target as soon as their first attack missed a blinking target, espically one that had a weapon and armor.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-17, 10:58 AM
Is there some way to mitigate or eliminate the 20% miss chance from Blinking? Boosting my enemy's defence while enhancing my own does not seem to be the best route. For casters and a solo characters this would not be an issue, but for a melee character in a team trying to kill his enemy before it gets to the squishies, this seems like a poor choice for team success.

Any intelligent enemy would move on to the next target as soon as their first attack missed a blinking target, espically one that had a weapon and armor.Ghost touch weaponry works for bruisers. Including gauntlets so he can grapple.

For casters, Transdimensional Spell.

Loren
2009-11-17, 11:21 AM
get a perminant/command word item of Shield ( http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shield.htm ). It give +4 ac, blocks magic missles and is very cheap.
Also, an item of Protection From Evil ( http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionFromEvil.htm )may be a good replacement to a ring of protect +2, depending on what you expect to face. Not only does it give you +2 deflect it also improves your saves, blocks attempts to posses or control, and it prevents summoned monsters from touching you. All for the price of a first level spell on an item. But since this item only works against evil creatures it is dependant on what you will be facing.

ghashxx
2009-11-17, 12:39 PM
Douglas, Lycanthromancer, Pheonixrivers, and everyone else interested in making surpreme, level 50, uberoptimized characters to try and kill each other in a pvp match, just make a new thread.

For this character I'm definitely siding with using a combo of upping your AC a little through some of this and some of that, but concentrating on getting miss chances. So mirror images with the darklight on top of that would be great.

Iku Rex
2009-11-17, 04:44 PM
Considering that A.) you have to sink a huge amount into pumping your AC to work against the big bruisers to get it to be worthwhile against them, and B.) many opponents can completely bypass AC and still screw up your day no matter how much money you put into it, I'd say it really is. Getting it up to the point of usefulness drains too many resources that can be used to become nearly immune to AC-targeting attacks.

You're better off paying token attention to AC and going for miss-chances and immunities, instead.Even small AC investments are worthwhile agains the "big bruisers". Why? Most of them have Power Attack. Furthermore, big brusiers come in all CRs, and by the time a small horde of trolls is an appropriate encounter you really want them to have a hard time hitting you.

AC also has the "it just works" advantage - if you want a miss chance you often have to activate something, and that can be costly in a high level fight.

Are miss chances useless? Of course not. I suggested blink for a reason earlier in the thread. But they are not infallible. Ideally you want AC and miss chance (and DR) in melee.

Dimers
2009-11-17, 04:51 PM
Ideally you want AC and miss chance (and DR) in melee.

And regeneration. Ooh, and contingent effects! And evasion, mettle, slippery mind, and withstand. And wings of cover.

Well, I know *I* sure do. :smalltongue:

herrhauptmann
2009-11-17, 04:52 PM
Is there some way to mitigate or eliminate the 20% miss chance from Blinking? Boosting my enemy's defence while enhancing my own does not seem to be the best route. For casters and a solo characters this would not be an issue, but for a melee character in a team trying to kill his enemy before it gets to the squishies, this seems like a poor choice for team success.

Any intelligent enemy would move on to the next target as soon as their first attack missed a blinking target, espically one that had a weapon and armor.

Ghost touch/ghost strike weapons.
It's nowhere close to an option for this character, but a character could benefit greatly from Blink while using the mageslayer feat tree. Mageslayer, Blindfight, Pierce magical concealment (the one you need), pierce magical protection. 4 feats make it a bit rough to accomplish without planning from the start.


Also, an item of Protection From Evil ( http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionFromEvil.htm )may be a good replacement to a ring of protect +2, depending on what you expect to face. Not only does it give you +2 deflect it also improves your saves, blocks attempts to posses or control, and it prevents summoned monsters from touching you. All for the price of a first level spell on an item. But since this item only works against evil creatures it is dependant on what you will be facing. -Loren
Loren, use item stacking rules. :)
First enchantment is against evil, second against law or chaos. Thematically, I'd say a CG person should have evil and law on the item. NG would have evil and their pick of law/chaos.
In a less numbers heavy game, where flavor is as important as rules, I'd say you couldn't put both Law and Chaos, or Good and Evil versions on the same item.

Iku Rex
2009-11-17, 04:58 PM
Ghost touch weaponry work...No. Ghost touch weapons won't work from the ethereal plane.

***


get a perminant/command word item of Shield ( http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shield.htm ). It give +4 ac, blocks magic missles and is very cheap.
Also, an item of Protection From Evil ( http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionFromEvil.htm )may be a good replacement to a ring of protect +2, depending on what you expect to face. Not only does it give you +2 deflect it also improves your saves, blocks attempts to posses or control, and it prevents summoned monsters from touching you. All for the price of a first level spell on an item. But since this item only works against evil creatures it is dependant on what you will be facing.<sigh>

http://i15.tinypic.com/8azhcnk.jpgCUSTOM ITEM CREATION DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY!

The DM decides the price of the item. This price may (and usually will) be different from the one you get using the table in the DMG. See DMG page 282 and MIC page 233. A new magic item should never be "very cheap" the way you mean it.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-17, 06:58 PM
No. Ghost touch weapons won't work from the ethereal plane.You know, I was thinking that it would stay on the material plane for some reason.

Make sure it's got dimensional anchor applied to it, and you're good to go.

You know? Ghost touch doesn't work against ethereal creatures; only against incorporeals.

ghashxx
2009-11-17, 07:04 PM
You know? Ghost touch doesn't work against ethereal creatures; only against incorporeals.

Wow...now that's just weird. So what does a person use against a ghost, and what kind of armor enchantment can be used to give its bonus against a ghost attacking? Hey, this question even applies to getting the AC up since it includes AC against ghost attacks! Speaking of ghost attacks, what do they base their hit against, touch AC?

Keshay
2009-11-17, 08:08 PM
Well, ghosts are still incorporeal, but not ethereal, although they so affect ethereal creatures normaly so ghost touch would work on them.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-17, 08:30 PM
Well, ghosts are still incorporeal, but not ethereal, although they so affect ethereal creatures normaly so ghost touch would work on them.They're ethereal, and only incorporeal when they manifest.

Ghosts are tricky and strange.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-17, 10:44 PM
Is there some way to mitigate or eliminate the 20% miss chance from Blinking? Boosting my enemy's defence while enhancing my own does not seem to be the best route. For casters and a solo characters this would not be an issue, but for a melee character in a team trying to kill his enemy before it gets to the squishies, this seems like a poor choice for team success.

Any intelligent enemy would move on to the next target as soon as their first attack missed a blinking target, espically one that had a weapon and armor.

Pierce Magical Concealment, from the Mage Slayer feat line, negates miss chances from Magical Effects. This includes your own, so it should bypass the Blink miss chance.

And Ghosts are always Ethereal. They are ALSO incorporeal when manifested (on the material plane), but, even then, if you are ethereal, you have no miss chance to hit them.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-17, 10:51 PM
Pierce Magical Concealment, from the Mage Slayer feat line, negates miss chances from Magical Effects. This includes your own, so it should bypass the Blink miss chance.I wouldn't bet on it; the miss chance is because you're on an entirely different plane. I doubt a feat would do much for that; otherwise, you could float around on the ethereal plane and assassinate people at will.

Douglas
2009-11-17, 10:54 PM
I wouldn't bet on it; the miss chance is because you're on an entirely different plane. I doubt a feat would do much for that; otherwise, you could float around on the ethereal plane and assassinate people at will.
By RAW, what matters is that it's a miss chance caused by a spell. The mechanism by which the miss chance is generated is irrelevant, it's a miss chance caused by a spell and is therefore ignored by the feat.

What a reasonable DM might allow may be different, but that's what the feat's RAW is.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-17, 11:03 PM
By RAW, what matters is that it's a miss chance caused by a spell. The mechanism by which the miss chance is generated is irrelevant, it's a miss chance caused by a spell and is therefore ignored by the feat.

What a reasonable DM might allow may be different, but that's what the feat's RAW is.

This. The feat title might imply concealment, but it applies to any spell-granted miss chance. Also, since effects don't travel from ethereal to material, it has to be a spell-granted ability that establishes a miss chance. Simply being ethereal isn't a 100% miss chance, nor is having a high AC a 95% miss chance.

Berserk Monk
2009-11-17, 11:05 PM
You could just use the gp on a weapon that would let you kill/loot anyone/anything with better armor than you have.:smallbiggrin:

herrhauptmann
2009-11-18, 02:43 AM
They're ethereal, and only incorporeal when they manifest.

Ghosts are tricky and strange.

Is there an enchantment to make the weapon a [force] effect like magic missiles? So it works across both sides of the ethereal plane?

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-18, 02:50 AM
Is there an enchantment to make the weapon a [force] effect like magic missiles? So it works across both sides of the ethereal plane?

Force effects and abjurations go from material to ethereal.

They do not go from ethereal to material.

So no dice there.

Keshay
2009-11-18, 09:59 AM
They're ethereal, and only incorporeal when they manifest.

Ghosts are tricky and strange.

Really? The SRD says nothing about the base creature gaining the Ethereal subtype, and I do not recall seeing anything about that in the Monster Manual when I was looking at it last night. Does it say Type: Undead, Ethereal, Incorporeal (etc...) in the stat block in the MM? If it does, boy do I need new glasses, and/or ritalin since that was exactly what I was looking for and missed it... Then again, news/proof of my sanity slowly slipping away would not be particularly unexpected.

Aha! here it is:

A ghost dwells on the Ethereal Plane and, as an ethereal creature.... Its there in the text for Manifest.

And as a further rationale for the reason as to why I could not find reference to the Ghost being of the Ethereal type/subtype... No such thing as an Ethereal creature.

That being the case, I'd call for transparency (ugh, totally unintended pun) between Incorporeal and Ethereal descriptors for rules adjudication. (In reality I just really want to use Blink and a Ghost Touch Weapon).

Actually, is there any other way to become incorporeal that does not involve the Ethereal plane?

kentma57
2009-11-18, 10:29 AM
Continuous ring of Shield 4000gp provides you with a +4 shield bonus to AC.

Continuous ring of Shield of Faith gives you +2 deflection for 4000gp, not as nice as the first one but still a great deal.

If that second ring slot is not open, make it bracers or something...


Other spell that work ok as magic items(use activated or continuous)...
-Protection from Chaos/Evil/Good/Law
-Expeditious Retreat
-Comprehend Languages
-Mount
-Mage Armor
-Cure Light Wounds

Douglas
2009-11-18, 10:49 AM
There's a reason that formula is called a guideline and careful DM assessment is specifically called for, kentma57. Every example you gave is blatantly overpowered at that price and unlikely to be allowed by most DMs.

kentma57
2009-11-18, 10:55 AM
There's a reason that formula is called a guideline and careful DM assessment is specifically called for, kentma57. Every example you gave is blatantly overpowered at that price and unlikely to be allowed by most DMs.

I know I'm kidding :smallbiggrin:, though seriously you might want to as your DM about the Shield of Faith item if you have the least optimized/powerful character in the party and the casters don't care enough to buff you +2 AC for 4000 might be something your DM will let you get away with.

SparkMandriller
2009-11-18, 10:55 AM
And then your DM tells you to buy a ring of protection/force shield like everyone else.

Oh hey I'm slow silly me.