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Thajocoth
2009-11-16, 03:06 PM
I was writing some notes for the next session of a game I'm running, and I realized... This one character who's bluffing about her entire history, if the players catch her, only reveals that she's lying, but not what the truth is. It doesn't reveal that she's another person entirely, and all they have is their word vs hers that she lied. There are ways to find out what's going on (delay her for a minute while someone else uses Arcana to identify what magical effects are on her, get a ritual that can see an item's history and take something of hers, ect...) But through conversation alone this might be impossible. I had already written up a lot of conversation info too...

A little back-info to understand what I wrote up:
In his history, one character, Tier, fought with Taela's armies against Fahlarn. That's why he's getting a bonus to Insight about Fahlarn.

Xeviria is known to only a few people. Through most of those people, she controls the rest of the mob. The others who know are the PCs, her children, and Lirinthiell. Her son let slip to the players that some mages transformed her and that she's on the surface, despite the fact that she normally never goes to the surface for any reason. The players suspect she's disguised as Veralynn. (They're right.)

Lirinthiell is King Arinthius's best friend and trusted adviser. He's an Eladrin spellcaster. Arinthius is Human. Since Arinthius is single, Lirinthiell is currently next in line for Nerusia's throne.

The players are on the payroll of the city guard. As the guard's top elite forces, they answer directly to Lirinthiell for special missions.

What the players know about the current situation:

* Well known: Within the week you were gone, Veralynn became King Arinthius's fiancé. She's incredibly attractive and has some wealth. She seems to have a collection of artifacts, gems and magic items with no apparent source of income. They met at a party for rich people. She paid her way in. She caught the king's eye there.

* From Lirinthiell: Lirinthiell doesn't trust her. He can't find any shred of history about her, and she's consistently in the king's presence. He's advised the king on this matter, but the king says she's harmless. He wants you to find and tell him anything they can glean about her while guarding her.

What I wrote up:
Meeting her: "Hello" *Courteous bow* "You're my assigned bodyguards?" "This is so silly. I can't think of any reason anyone would attack me."

*continues friendly conversation*

Once out of earshot of Lirinthiell: "Is he always so rigid? Or does he just hate me?"

"Maybe I worry too much, but everyone knows that right now, Lirinthiell is next in line for the throne, and because of me that's about to change. As an Eladrin, he would certainly outlive Rinthy. I love Rinthy, and I know not everyone will like me... But I just don't feel safe around Lirinthiell."

If asked about anything to do with her past: "I... I really don't want to talk about it... Especially not in public."

If pressed further: "Alright, fine, but let's wait until we get to my room in the castle."


--- AMBUSH! ---


"I guess having guards is not as silly as I thought. Thank you so much for saving me from those brutes! Why would anyone attack me though?"


Back at the castle: *She goes over to one of her boxes and starts looking through it* "Here, I have to give you each something for saving me." *she pulls out one very wanted item from each player's wishlist*


If pressed on the issues, her story is: (All lies, Bluff vs Insight. Tier gets +5 to Insight checks about Fahlarn.)

"Well, have you heard of Aldedge?"

History: Aldedge was a town in Fahlarn. Taela's armies burned it to the ground. (+5 to Insight checks about Aldedge, doesn't stack with Tier's bonus about Fahlarn.)

If the PCs say that they haven't heard of it: "Aldedge was a town in Fahlarn. It's where I'm from."

If pressed on that: "It's rubble now. Taela burned it down after I left."

"My parents and three of their friends would leave for long periods of time. They would always come back with gold, jewels, and amazing ancient artifacts. Now I collect these sorts of items."

If pressed on income: "Well, I collect artifacts, gems and magical items. I'll usually do some research to find out about something I want and hire a group to go get it for me, taking a percentage of the wealth they find along the way, of course."

"Whenever my parents weren't around, I stayed at the school. If they were taking particularly long, I'd have a local mage send them a short note that I'd write for them, and they'd send a message back, so we were always in touch."

If pressed on why she left Aldedge: "It was during the war with Taela. They had been advancing and Aldedge was going to be along the front lines pretty soon. I packed up what I could and left. I was only 13, but I was able to fit everything my parents left me in the Haversack and bags of holding, which included a basket of Everlasting Provisions. I wound up staying when I reached Nerusia. I later learned that Fahlarn was burned to the ground."

If pressed on friends: "Everyone I was close to passed on... Violently... It took a while before I could put myself in a social situation again. I'm glad I finally did, or I'd never have met Rinthy."

If pressed on parents now or why she didn't want to talk about any of this: "Well... When I was 10, the message wouldn't send. So I had him scry on them. When the image came up, the mage quickly covered my eyes with his hand, but not before I saw it. The room was poorly lit. There was blood everywhere... A few limbs... My mother's shield lying on the ground... And some big, grotesque, slimy beast sleeping..." Towards the end of this, she turns around, pulling out a small cloth from her pocket. She dabs her eyes with it. When they next see her face, she's crying.

When they see her face, they can Insight vs Nature to know that her eyes are chemically irritated, not emotionally irritated. Her cloth is actually laced with something to induce crying.



When Lirinthiell checks on the players, and the players tell him what they know, if the players didn't Insight her or consistantly failed, Lirinthiell passes his Insight "It's awfully convenient that her story would explain why there's absolutely no record of her existence anywhere or anybody that knows her... She's hiding something. Try to find out what it is."

-----

What good is Insight in politics? Also, I've been told not to figure out how the players can solve things, to let that be the player's job... But I'm wondering anyway: Am I giving my players an impossible situation?

(I usually don't pre-write any dialog as it's usually a bad idea, but this time there's a lot of story to remember (even if it's false). Obviously she can say other things and I'd try to keep it flexible, but I need these for reference.)

jiriku
2009-11-16, 03:12 PM
A good bluffer doesn't need chemicals to cry. Many talented actors can cry on demand if they take a few minutes to work themselves into the proper emotional state. Heck, even a lot of average actors can do it.

Were you planning to ask us a question about your write-up?

Thajocoth
2009-11-16, 03:16 PM
A good bluffer doesn't need chemicals to cry. Many talented actors can cry on demand if they take a few minutes to work themselves into the proper emotional state. Heck, even a lot of average actors can do it.

Were you planning to ask us a question about your write-up?

Yes. I added that. I'm rarely done with a post within 5 minutes of posting it. I usually forget something... Or say something in a way I didn't mean...

She's not used to a mammalian body... So I'm having her use the chemicals instead. That gives them something a bit easier to catch her on than her regular Bluffs.

jiriku
2009-11-16, 04:10 PM
Not used to a mammalian...oh my. I'm not gonna ask. That poor king.

Uses for insight in politics: notice conflicts of interest, "convenient" coincidences, true sincerity vs. posing for the masses, detect discreet alliances between politicians by observing their political actions, pick up on impatience or anger when the politician is attempting to keep a cool face. Basically any situation where a perceptive person who realize more is going on than meets the eye, but where a thoughtless person would simply accept the situation at face value.

I generally don't wait for players to ask for Insight rolls, but simply prompt them when the situation is important. You can no more forget to be insightful in a social setting than you can forget to swim when you fall in the water.

On its face, the situation doesn't seem difficult at all, although if the villainess is very powerful and the PCs are not, obtaining evidence may be more difficult simply because it's impossible to oppose her directly. However, even that merely makes the situation difficult. Her hands are tied because she can't initiate open hostilities against them without exposing her identity.

And kudos to you for giving the players free reign to solve the problem as they see fit. Sounds like the makings of a fun game.

Gamerlord
2009-11-16, 04:16 PM
I am going to ask, what the heck you do mean "Not used to mammalian body" ? Is she a succubus? Medusa? Hag? DETAILS! DETAILS!!!!!!

ghashxx
2009-11-16, 04:21 PM
Something I've noticed as particularly problematic when dealing with PCs in a delicate situation is the tendency towards using intimidate once they know there's something amiss. Use of diplomacy and counter bluffing is also something to look out for, otherwise the whole thing will be found out in a jiffy.

As far as them actually learning the truth, checking map rooms that should have accurate records would be good. A town wealthy enough to have two fairly big time adventurers and a wizard should be on a map somewhere. Especially talk to a historian/map maker.

Ormagoden
2009-11-16, 04:35 PM
You know, I'm running into a problem with this in our gaming session tonight.
I know another player is lying (about being an assassin) how do I expose them without the use of magic? any suggestions?

Thajocoth
2009-11-16, 04:36 PM
Not used to a mammalian...oh my. I'm not gonna ask. That poor king.

Uses for insight in politics: notice conflicts of interest, "convenient" coincidences, true sincerity vs. posing for the masses, detect discreet alliances between politicians by observing their political actions, pick up on impatience or anger when the politician is attempting to keep a cool face. Basically any situation where a perceptive person who realize more is going on than meets the eye, but where a thoughtless person would simply accept the situation at face value.

I generally don't wait for players to ask for Insight rolls, but simply prompt them when the situation is important. You can no more forget to be insightful in a social setting than you can forget to swim when you fall in the water.

On its face, the situation doesn't seem difficult at all, although if the villainess is very powerful and the PCs are not, obtaining evidence may be more difficult simply because it's impossible to oppose her directly. However, even that merely makes the situation difficult. Her hands are tied because she can't initiate open hostilities against them without exposing her identity.

And kudos to you for giving the players free reign to solve the problem as they see fit. Sounds like the makings of a fun game.

Thanks. It's a lot more fun when players are clever than when they're trying to figure out what they need to do. I made almost every mistake a DM could make in the first game I ran (this is the second one now). It was a learning experience in what not to do.

* Pre-set world in which I know what everyone is doing everywhere
* Railroad plot
* No clues as to where the plot was allowing the players to wander aimlessly
* Too little loot
* Too high encounter levels
* Only one encounter per day
* Uninteresting encounter terrain
* A few bad rules calls
* ect ect...

If I tossed in a DMPC and had the story revolve around them, I would officially have been the worst DM ever.

I'll probably have them roll their Insight after everything she says (true or false), since their current mission IS to Insight her. She's a level 11 solo and her Bluff is +12. The PCs are level 8. They just became level 8 and I'm not sure of their Insights. Though, looking at her stats, her Nature check is actually higher, not lower. (+13.) I haven't decided yet if she's wearing any magic items. The PCs each have a sub-character who's level 7 because there are only 3 players. (These are chosen from a small pool of characters created by me.) These characters only know that they're guarding her, so they use their Passive Insights. So if the PCs fail their Insights on one of her Bluffs, I'd compare it to those character's passives. The highest of those is a 23 Passive Insight. (Though, that sub-character has yet to see a battle and has a lot of penalties in exchange for boosts. Like, powers that hurt herself to heal allies and stuff. So it'll be harder if that sub-character dies in the ambush.)


I am going to ask, what the heck you do mean "Not used to mammalian body" ? Is she a succubus? Medusa? Hag? DETAILS! DETAILS!!!!!!

Black Dragon

Gamerlord
2009-11-16, 04:36 PM
You know, I'm running into a problem with this in our gaming session tonight.
I know another player is lying (about being an assassin) how do I expose them without the use of magic? any suggestions?

Complete adventurer has rules for tailing people.

BRC
2009-11-16, 04:37 PM
You know, I'm running into a problem with this in our gaming session tonight.
I know another player is lying (about being an assassin) how do I expose them without the use of magic? any suggestions?

More information needed. What are they disguised as, could you trick them into contradicting themselves, if you start probing into their cover story (continuing to ask questions until they fail a bluff check/can't think of anything) would the rest of the group tell you to stop being a pest before you can get anywhere.

Thajocoth
2009-11-16, 04:40 PM
Something I've noticed as particularly problematic when dealing with PCs in a delicate situation is the tendency towards using intimidate once they know there's something amiss. Use of diplomacy and counter bluffing is also something to look out for, otherwise the whole thing will be found out in a jiffy.

As far as them actually learning the truth, checking map rooms that should have accurate records would be good. A town wealthy enough to have two fairly big time adventurers and a wizard should be on a map somewhere. Especially talk to a historian/map maker.

The party's Bard has quite the silver tongue and likes to use it to his advantage. I use pre-eratta DCs, and he can make a hard diplomacy check on a 3 without Words of Friendship. He has counter-bluffed before too (that's how they got info out of her son instead of fighting him back at level 4.), and I wouldn't be surprised if he does it again. The town she says she's from though, DID exist and WAS burned down. She just wasn't really from it. That's why she picked that town. That and she knows the Bard's history with Taela. (The Bard is Tier.)

Gamerlord
2009-11-16, 04:46 PM
First of all, we need to know what she is, is she a succubus? A aberration? A yuan-ti?

Thajocoth
2009-11-16, 04:49 PM
First of all, we need to know what she is, is she a succubus? A aberration? A yuan-ti?

Black Dragon

Real name: Xeviria. Has 3 kids in the area (was 4, but the PCs killed one.) She also runs the local mafia in secret.

Ormagoden
2009-11-16, 04:50 PM
She's an assassin that uses dancing as a cover. I actually got her on sense motive when she bluffed shock that the man she was straddling was dead. The problems is now I have to prove it. another problem is that its against another player, and a further complication is that I'm a swashbuckler, and a further complication is that the dancers friend is a 12 level cleric with a homebrew music domain that gives him access to bardic music as if he was 12th level...also for some reason "powerful magic" isn't readily available for my character but is for the other PCs because they are casters. Trailing won't work because they are under house arrest.

Gamerlord
2009-11-16, 04:51 PM
Black Dragon

..........

What?

That poor king.

Thajocoth
2009-11-16, 04:56 PM
..........

What?

That poor king.

Yeah, I haven't decided if she plans on mating with him first, but her current plans definitely involve killing him at least... Possibly necromancing him too. She worships Vecna. Once in power, she'll use her mafia and undead guards to hold her position as the city's ruler... Raise taxes to fill her hoard... Make her children the city's lords... Ect...

If the players fail to stop her first, that is.

LibraryOgre
2009-11-16, 04:56 PM
You know, I'm running into a problem with this in our gaming session tonight.
I know another player is lying (about being an assassin) how do I expose them without the use of magic? any suggestions?

The simplest way is to make sure you have your evidence to back you up, even OOC (but not your OOC evidence). You need to be able to explain, when he says "You can't know that!" why precisely you can know that.

In short, you need to be able to Jessica Fletcher it. Each clue that told you who the killer was, needs to add up to a logical whole, or at least a big arrow.

So, go forth and watch 30 episodes of Murder, She Wrote. You just have to watch the last five minutes.

Gamerlord
2009-11-16, 05:08 PM
Yeah, I haven't decided if she plans on mating with him first, but her current plans definitely involve killing him at least... Possibly necromancing him too. She worships Vecna. Once in power, she'll use her mafia and undead guards to hold her position as the city's ruler... Raise taxes to fill her hoard... Make her children the city's lords... Ect...

If the players fail to stop her first, that is.

So,typical dragon?
Trick her into using her breath weapon, figure out something that makes no sense, trick her kids, etc.

sdream
2009-11-16, 05:26 PM
Figure out 3 ways for the players to stop her:

- a clue that show the king she's bad news
- leverage to make her back off and change plans
- a way to just flat out take her down after she blows something

Be open to the players finding other ways to stop her (just see what they come up with and if it makes sense, roll with it).

But MOST IMPORTANTLY be open to the players NOT stopping her.

- how will she use the characters as the new queen
- how will she handle knowing they know, but can't prove anything
- can she successfully convince them to like and work for her

Heck, she could even come clean to the king, and he might go for it:
- she brings her own impressive dowry of wealth and power
- shapeshifters are crazy in the sack, and age very well
- half dragon heirs are very tough to kill

Leave your options open. If the players fail to stop it, let it roll over them and become history. Don't make the ancient dragon stupid just so they can shank her.

sdream
2009-11-16, 05:38 PM
Yeah, I haven't decided if she plans on mating with him first, but her current plans definitely involve killing him at least... Possibly necromancing him too. She worships Vecna. Once in power, she'll use her mafia and undead guards to hold her position as the city's ruler... Raise taxes to fill her hoard... Make her children the city's lords... Ect...

If the players fail to stop her first, that is.

Dragons should be smarter than that.

Taxes aren't set low because Kings are nice, they are set at the rate the king's economic advisors think will maximize the wealth of the kingdom as a whole... because the king owns the entire kingdom.

She should not be playing for a loot and run (otherwise she would show up with her offspring in full size, with scrolls of teleport) but to actually become the queen in truth.

With the life expectancy of a dragon she should be planning how many children to have with the king, and how to remain in de-facto ownership of the kingdom when her "lover and cover" dies of old age.

The resources provided by even a small country over a couple hundred years would dwarf what even a family of dragons could carry off into the night - a fact she is clearly aware of and comfortable exploiting given her criminal background.

She's just moving up a level in her control of these useful little monkeys.

Thajocoth
2009-11-16, 05:43 PM
Figure out 3 ways for the players to stop her:

- a clue that show the king she's bad news
- leverage to make her back off and change plans
- a way to just flat out take her down after she blows something

Be open to the players finding other ways to stop her (just see what they come up with and if it makes sense, roll with it).

But MOST IMPORTANTLY be open to the players NOT stopping her.

- how will she use the characters as the new queen
- how will she handle knowing they know, but can't prove anything
- can she successfully convince them to like and work for her

Heck, she could even come clean to the king, and he might go for it:
- she brings her own impressive dowry of wealth and power
- shapeshifters are crazy in the sack, and age very well
- half dragon heirs are very tough to kill

Leave your options open. If the players fail to stop it, let it roll over them and become history. Don't make the ancient dragon stupid just so they can shank her.

Ah yes, the rule of 3. "Just be sure you see three possibilities, because the players will miss two." My loose plans extend both if the players stop her and if they fail to. I need to figure out specifics, but I've got loose ideas both ways.

However... Of the three... One's Lawful Good and will absolutely not side with her. One's Unaligned, but refuses to work with undead. (She worships Vecna and will refuse to not work with undead.) And the last is Chaotic Neutral, leaning Good. While a bit random, he doesn't go against the party and all things being equal tends to pick good over evil. Her son already tried to buy the players off by offering them riches and lordship, which is how I know what they'll do in response. Xeviria's tactic here is to try to seem normal enough and possibly sow a little bit of untrust between the PCs and Lirinthiell (their current questgiver, adviser to the king, next in line for the throne if the king remains a bachelor.)

The players also know that, after her eldest son made a deal with the players (they bluffed acceptance to try to infiltrate the mafia, but one of the PCs failed it), the mob found the rival of the player who failed the bluff and sent him after the party.

Also, she's not a shapeshifter... I haven't found anything in any 4e sourcebook about dragons changing shape, so I had mages transform her with a ritual.

ashmanonar
2009-11-16, 05:53 PM
Also, she's not a shapeshifter... I haven't found anything in any 4e sourcebook about dragons changing shape, so I had mages transform her with a ritual.

The beauty of 4e is...make it up!

You can give any monster or npc any power you like, as long as you can either explain it to your PC's or hide it from them. (the usual caveat is, will this affect any encounter the PC's may initiate with it?)

A humanoid shape-shift is, in the grand scheme of things, rather worthless in personal combat, but very useful in non-combat politicking.

For example, in the (currently rather wide-ranging) campaign I'm running, all dragons are capable of a humanoid shape-shift. Some aren't any good at it, and some are VERY good at it. The older they get, the better at it they generally are.

Makes for an excellent humanoid-society game while still having...unusual elements.

Thajocoth
2009-11-16, 05:54 PM
Dragons should be smarter than that.

Taxes aren't set low because Kings are nice, they are set at the rate the king's economic advisors think will maximize the wealth of the kingdom as a whole... because the king owns the entire kingdom.

She should not be playing for a loot and run (otherwise she would show up with her offspring in full size, with scrolls of teleport) but to actually become the queen in truth.

With the life expectancy of a dragon she should be planning how many children to have with the king, and how to remain in de-facto ownership of the kingdom when her "lover and cover" dies of old age.

The resources provided by even a small country over a couple hundred years would dwarf what even a family of dragons could carry off into the night - a fact she is clearly aware of and comfortable exploiting given her criminal background.

She's just moving up a level in her control of these useful little monkeys.

King Arinthius does have taxes a bit lower than his maximum financial gain would be. He rules the city. Larger countries in this setting tend to appear every so often, but wind up at war and fall apart quickly enough. No large empires. Nerusia is stable right now. However, the king had made a decree allowing people of any race, regardless of their past history with humans, to come and live in Nerusia. (So long as they still obey the laws and stuff), which has caused the city to grow under his rule. It was during this growth that Xeviria moved into town underneath a Duergar-run tavern and started her mafia.

As a last ditch effort, she could try to claim use of that decree, but running a mafia isn't obeying the laws.


The beauty of 4e is...make it up!

You can give any monster or npc any power you like, as long as you can either explain it to your PC's or hide it from them. (the usual caveat is, will this affect any encounter the PC's may initiate with it?)

A humanoid shape-shift is, in the grand scheme of things, rather worthless in personal combat, but very useful in non-combat politicking.

For example, in the (currently rather wide-ranging) campaign I'm running, all dragons are capable of a humanoid shape-shift. Some aren't any good at it, and some are VERY good at it. The older they get, the better at it they generally are.

Makes for an excellent humanoid-society game while still having...unusual elements.

Certainly. I decided I wanted some limitation, so I had a ritual cast on her instead.