3.5e Paladin Question

[Vemynal]

Ok, I think I'm in the right section, forgive me if not cuz I've never been outside the actual comic section cept to have an avatar made...

I don't know much about D&D, but from what I've gathered while reading other peoples discussions it appears that the Paladin is considered...kinda gimped to say the least (though I'd actually appreciate your opinions on this).

I remember playing a paladin once approx level 9, I was far behind everyone else in damage and I could only cast 1 spell a day (I had a high enough wisdom for bonus spells but I didn't know that back then, still only would have been 3 first level spells though) felt kinda useless

I know one of the paladin's big specials is he's able to add his Cha modifier to his saving throws at level 2

So as I was making my mac and cheese for lunch this morning (oddly thinking about a duskblade I'm considering rolling, far from thinking about a paladin) an idea popped into my head (which I've since worked on a tad)

What if you gave the paladin the ability to affect *all* his modifiers with his Cha modifier?

Str- Increase your chance to hit and damage done
Dex- AC
Con- hit die
Int- skill points
Wis- the DC for overcoming spells

As well as the modifiers to all skills applicable to those attributes

I was thinking of placing this "Imp Divine Grace" at level 7 or 8. High enough in to the paladin levels that someone can't just dip into the class and get this but low enough so that if someone wanted to prestige out to something else they could begin as a paladin and get this.

I was thinking level 7/16 especially since you literally only get +1 to your BAB at that level, no new spells, no specials, nothing to your saving throws, no feats...etc

Anyways thank you in advance for your responses, I'd like to hear mainly on whether you guys consider the paladin a gimped class or not (and I'm talking the base class from 3.5 PHB 1), whether this would be appropriate as a 'fix' to the paladin (if he needs one) and whether you would make any changes to what I proposed above in case it is a bit much

edit: I realized how over powered this is when a friend mentioned something and thought to break it up so that you gain half your cha modifier rounded down to all other modifiers at 7 and your full cha modifier to all at 16

[Temotei]

The bonus to all modifiers would be far too powerful, that being my first thought. Maybe, if you wanted an improved divine grace ability, and you wanted it to be a really all-encompassing ability, you could have a 1/day technique allowing the paladin to get a +4 dodge bonus to AC, +2 on attacks and damage, and temporary hit points until the end of the duration...or you could split it up, allowing customization to go crazy. Have the paladin choose one bonus from a list you make up, then improve it at a later level, and add a new bonus, then do the same at a later level, where the final bonus would be. Maybe like this...


Improved Divine Grace: At 7th level, the paladin gains one of the following bonuses 1/day:

+1 on attack rolls
+1 to armor class
+2 on damage rolls
+1 to all saves
+2 to one save
+2 Charisma for the purpose of Lay on Hands and Charisma based skills.

At 13th and 19th levels, the paladin may pick one more bonus that also applies when using this ability. The previous bonuses also improve as such:
+1 abilities: 7th: +1
13th: +2
19th: +3
+2 abilities: 7th: +4
13th: +5
19th: +6
These bonuses last for 1 min/class level.


Of course, feel free to use this, or change it however you see fit. This way, it's not too overpowered, and at the boring levels for the paladin, they get something.

In fact...I'm might post this as an alternate class feature for paladins...hehe. :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: Actually, I'm going to power it up a bit, because as a once per day ability, it should be more powerful than a feat...or three, as it is later.

[Vemynal]

thank you for the feedback =)

How long exactly does "1 minute per class level" last? not a minute in real life right? cause the way some of my friends play it might just take 15 minutes to get to my turn after i end my turn >.>

Also was wondering what exactly people grips with the paladin are, after playing one and from what people said it seems to be that they are well rounded characters rather then specialized characters "mediocre of all, best of none"

And while its a bit off subject I was also wondering if someone could explain how bonus spells work off of your stats? >.>

thank you!

[DracoDei]

1 minute for the character. Which is 10 rounds.

If your spell casting stat is between 10 and 18 then you get one bonus spell of each level OTHER than 0 for each spell level that is less than or equal to your ability score bonus. if it is greater than that then you get 2 bonus spells for each spell level that is at least 4 less than your ability score bonus.

P.S. If you honestly don't know both of the above I you are either very bold or pretty foolish to be trying to hand at modifying a class.

[Temotei]

The SRD, one of your better friends in the D&D universe. (http://www.d20srd.org/)

Read up. :smallsmile:

[Teutonic Knight]

And while we're on the topic of paladins, I'd like to refer you to this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109210).

Just take a look.

[Roderick_BR]

Well, you are forgetting Lay-on hands (inferior to healing spells, but a nice backup when you are in trouble), mount (hard to use sometimes, true, but one of your strongest points), and, of course, smite evil. At level 9, you can use it twice, adding your Cha bonus to attack and dealing +9 damage to evil enemies/undead. Weak, compared to a rage, but still useful at times.
There's also divine health and remove diseases, but these are forgetable, really.
If you do a search, you'll find many interesting fixes for paladins.

Some typical fixes you'll find around:
1. Make your smites be by combat, instead of by day.
2. Increase saves, usually Will, to good.
3. Increase spells progression (like that of a bard, for example) and/or allow full level when casting (instead of half level).
4. Pick off some ability from the Knight (or Marshal from miniatures hanbook. Pick one or two auras, and you get a nice boost to your group).
5. Obligatory Tome of Battle reference, with the Crusader replacing the paladin.
6. Total rewrite (lots of these around).

[Gnomo]

I think the paladin is lacking fun options, I don't think a rewrite idea should go in the direction of more raw power for the paladin, I think it should go in the direction of choices for the paladin and enhanced team play, for this in my games I give the paladins the following improvements:

Spellcasting: The Paladin's caster level is equal to his class level -3 instead of half his class level.

Class skills: Add Gather Information and Knowledge (history) to the class skills list.

Skill points: 4 + Intelligence modifier per level (x4 at 1st level).

Holy Aura: At 1st level the Paladin can project a Holy Aura around him as a standard action by spending one Turn (or Rebuke) Undead attempt, the Aura has a range of 10 feet and lasts for a number of rounds equal to half the Paladin's class level. Only one Aura can be active at a time, if the Paladin uses an Aura while another is active the older one dissapears and the newer becomes active. The Aura must be chosen from the following list:
Will: The allies in the range of this aura gain a +2 morale bonus to Will Saving Throws.
Fortitude: The allies in the range of this aura gain a +2 morale bonus to Fortitude Saving Throws.
Reflex: The allies in the range of this aura gain a +2 morale bonus to Reflex Saving Throws.
Aid: The allies in the range of this aura give an extra +2 bonus to all aid another actions.
Cure: The allies in the range of this aura gain Fast Healing 2.
Protection: The allies in the range of this aura gain a +1 insight bonus to AC or a +2 insight bonus to AC while fighting defensively or using total defense.
Speed: The allies in the range of this aura gain a +10 enhancement bonus to all their natural speeds.
Endure: The allies in the range of this aura gain Damage Reduction 2 / - or improves any other non magical Damage Reduction by 2.
Resist: The allies in the range of this aura increases any Spell Resistance they have by 2.
Withstand: The allies in the range of this aura gain a bonus a +2 bonus to resist been disarmed, tripped, grappled, bull-rushed or overrun, and they do not automatically lose any of this checks against an opponent two size categories larger.

Second Aura: At 7th level the Paladin chooses a second known Aura, he can choose to use this new Aura.

Improved Auras: At 8th level the area of the Auras (including Aura of Courage) improves to 30 feet around the Paladin, and the benefits from all the chosen Auras doubles.

Third Aura: At 13th level the Paladin chooses a third known Aura, he can choose to use this new Aura.

Greater Auras: At 14th level the area of the Auras (including Aura of Courage) improves to 60 feet around the Paladin, and the benefits from all the chosen Auras triples.

Fourth Aura: At 19th level the Paladin chooses a fourth known Aura, he can choose to use this new Aura.

Perfect Auras: At 20th level the area of the Auras (including Aura of Courage) improves to 120 feet around the Paladin, and the benefits from all the chosen Auras is four times what's indicated in the Auras description.

Healing Touch: At 20th level the Paladin doubles the amount of HP he is capable of using with Lay on Hands, and can use his ability to Remove Disease daily instead of weekly.

[elliott20]

Well, you are forgetting Lay-on hands (inferior to healing spells, but a nice backup when you are in trouble), mount (hard to use sometimes, true, but one of your strongest points), and, of course, smite evil. At level 9, you can use it twice, adding your Cha bonus to attack and dealing +9 damage to evil enemies/undead. Weak, compared to a rage, but still useful at times.
There's also divine health and remove diseases, but these are forgetable, really.
If you do a search, you'll find many interesting fixes for paladins.

Some typical fixes you'll find around:
1. Make your smites be by combat, instead of by day.
2. Increase saves, usually Will, to good.
3. Increase spells progression (like that of a bard, for example) and/or allow full level when casting (instead of half level).
4. Pick off some ability from the Knight (or Marshal from miniatures hanbook. Pick one or two auras, and you get a nice boost to your group).
5. Obligatory Tome of Battle reference, with the Crusader replacing the paladin.
6. Total rewrite (lots of these around).
this is generally how I approach any paladin fixes. The core design principles for most melee classes always comes down to options and viability.

[Vemynal]

P.S. If you honestly don't know both of the above I you are either very bold or pretty foolish to be trying to hand at modifying a class.

I'd say I'm a lot of both ;)

I really liked the Auradin variant, seems interesting

thank you for the advice and responses everyone ^_^