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View Full Version : A player is trying to economically take over a town... [4E]



Hzurr
2009-11-17, 12:45 PM
So, my 4E game hit paragon tier last night, and things have been going very well so far. Currently, the PCs are in the town of Wellspring, going through a modified version of the "Madness" adventures (Dungeon Magazine 161, 162, and 163. Currently in part 2: Depths of Madness).


To keep people from having to deal with a wall o' text, I've included both the short version and the long version of the background below:


Short Version: One of my PC's, a sorcerer named Tzar, is a member of a powerful mercantile family called "Rex". Currently in Wellspring, while meeting with the local Lord to get some information, he dropped some hints that the family would be looking to spread to the town and set up some trade houses there. This was received very well by the Lord. In a later meeting with the Lord (who now was being "counseled" by some of the town guild leaders), Tzar was insulted by the leader of the Baker's Guild (which includes all wheat and grain shipments in the town), and has decided to do a full economic takeover of the town, and essentially run the guild-leader out of business by buying all the grain, buying the loyalty of the street-level guild members (town cooks, bakers, merchants, etc.), and undercutting the prices of everyone who remained in the guild.

Detailed Version:
Ok, I'm fully aware that PCs should never be given too much power, but this is the unfortunate result of a decision I made over a year ago. A different PC was a son in the powerful Rex family, but had turned his back on his family and become an adventure. Eventually, this lead to some other members of the family joining the party, and some really great stories and campaign arcs; and the Rex family is currently the patrons of the adventuring party (4 of the 6 PCs are employed by them in some form or fashion; including a nephew named Tzartorious, a sorcerer who serves a "face" in the family business. The Rex family is a merchant family, primarily by sea but also a decent amount of trade across land. They aren't the wealthiest family in the lands, but they're definitely a force to be reckoned with.

One of the PCs (named Berry) has a contract out on his head, butthe party was able to trace some of the assassins that were after him back to the town of Wellspring. When the party got there, the PCs split up to gather information, and Tzar decided to visit the local Lord. Since he was the son in a wealthy merchant family, this isn't really unheard of. He met with Lord Chriswell, and in an attempt to hide the purpose of their visit, implied that he was there because the Rex family was considering expanding their trade empire to Wellspring. Naturally, Lord Chriswell was very eager to help out the party, and provided them with what information he could.

Fast Forward a week or so.

Things are not going well in the town. Some of the outlying farms have been completely destroyed by unknown monsters; citizens have been found murdered and mutilated in the streets, people are vanishing out of their beds at night. It's not a good time to be in Wellspring. Tzar meets with Lord Chriswell again (who is now desperate for help getting things under control). Lord Chriswell asks Tzar if the party would be willing to help get to the bottom of what's going on, and Tzar lets him know that the party can help, but it might require...some extreme actions, that some people might frown on; but might be necessary to truely get to the bottom of things. In short, Tzar lets him know (in a very diplomatic way) that they need full legal immunity just in case things get rough.

Lord Chriswell and Tzar discuss this back and forth for a while, when they're suddenly interrupted by an alarm. Monsters are attacking the town gates! Lord Chriswell, in a panic, promises that the party will have whatever they need if they help defend the town (He's not the brightest Lord...). Tzar (and the rest of the party) hurry to the town gates, and defeat the monsters and save the town! Hurray! The locals declare them heroes, and openly praise them in the streets.

Later that day, Tzar heads back to the Lord's manor, but this time things are very different. Instead of speaking with only the Lord, there are also leader from the 3 primary guilds in the town: The Bakers Guild (which control just about everything related to food, including the buying and selling of grain), the tanner's guild, and the ironworker's guild. These three obviously have a lot of influence over the Lord (it quickly becomes apparent that they have almost all the power behind the throne), and aren't so quick to promise the party whatever powers they want. Words get exchange, insults are thrown back and forth (particularly between the head of the Baker's Guild and Tzar), and eventually they come to a compromise and party accepts being "deputized" by the local constable, but are still under the full restrictions of the law (even though they won't be heavily monitored).

However, Tzar is mad that his influence and power with the Lord has been undermined, and he is absolutely furious with the head of the Baker's guild for insulting the Rex family; and decides that the Rex family is going to do a full economic takeover of the Baker's Guild, and possibly the entire town. The Player playing Tzar has absolutely no problem spending his money to buy loyalty, favors and information (and for a level 11 character, who didn't spend a lot on items, he has a pretty hefty chunk of gold to throw around).

The Player is going to email me later about the full details, but essentially his plan is to buy up every single shipment of grain and wheat that comes into town, to buy the loyalty of as many of the local bakers and merchants as he can, and to undercut the costs of every single guild member who doesn't change his alliance from the current guild leaders to the Rex family.

A few things to remember:
- The player has the resources to spend a significant amount of money pursuing this goal. And, in theory, since this is a Rex family enterprise, he has the entire Rex family resources that he can put behind this (if he can convince them of it).
- The PCs are seen as the heroes and saviors of the town. They've saved it from monsters, and were also able to peacefully quell a riot
- Tzar has a ridiculous Charisma, and if it ever comes down to him making a diplomacy check, he'll nail it every time

Some details on the town:

Wellspring has about 1500 permanent residents in it, plus another 500 travelers, merchants, and pilgrims (there's a holy site of Ioun that a number of pilgrims come to visit) at any given time. The population is even higher during the summer. This doesn't include the various farmers and herders who live outside the town.
Wellspring is on a moderately significant trade road, but is also at the foot of a set of mountains (inhabited by some dwarf clans), and on the bank of a river that eventually leads down to the ocean (so goods can be sent out by water without much difficulty). The town does a lot of trade, but could potentially be a very significant city.



So basically, my issue is this: What do you think will happen as the PC tries to economically muscle his way into the town? How do you think the guild leaders will react to this? What about the townsmen? On the one hand, he is an outsider, but on the other hand he is viewed as "The savior of the town."

Anyway, all thoughts will be appreciated.

Yukitsu
2009-11-17, 12:48 PM
This is D&D, not sim city. If they want to play accountants and beaurocrats, give everyone else a chance to redo characters and get in on that. If they don't want to, NPC the character, because properly running a profitable venture takes time and effort that should be handled with more than a few die rolls.

Kurald Galain
2009-11-17, 12:56 PM
want to play accountants and beaurocrats,

Ooh, where do I buy that? :smallbiggrin:

Artanis
2009-11-17, 12:58 PM
Exalted :smallwink:

HereticNox
2009-11-17, 01:03 PM
What do you think will happen as the PC tries to economically muscle his way into the town?

The general populace will love him, especially if he is trying to undercut the competition by selling grain for cheap.

How do you think the guild leaders will react to this?

Poorly to say the least. It could range from engage in a price war, or trying to influence the suppliers directly. If the guild leaders are powerful they could hire people to "put him out of business." so to speak

What about the townsmen?

People like people that make it easier for them to fill their bellies. :smallwink:


As for letting them do this, I say encourage it. It is a good RP reaction, considering the background of the character. If you are worried he is going to change the course of the game to much, let him set up shop and a family member steps in run it.

Tiki Snakes
2009-11-17, 01:05 PM
Yeah, I pretty much second everything HereticNox said there.
Also, I can't help but feel that unless this is a very gritty and low-power game, it'd be hard to justify a group of adventurers fearing the reaction of....MR BUN, THE BAKER!

Which will just make it funnier when he sends some vaguely floury ninja's round.

FoE
2009-11-17, 01:19 PM
First off, how closely are you following the plots of the Madness adventures? Was Shathrax the mind flayer still involved in the plot? If so, have the PCs defeated him? If your answers to the last two questions are "yes" and "no", then quite frankly the party has bigger concerns than financially ruining some head of a local guild.

And that's not getting into the whole thing with Malachi, the Tear of Ioun and the Kaorti.

But let's say the whole "Madness" plotline is irrelevant to your adventure. All right, fine. Here's the thing: this might be fun for this player, but I suspect your players are going to be mighty bored at your next session watching your guy negotiate hours and hours of wheeling and dealing over grain shipments.

First off, you need to ask the player what is his ultimate goal. Yeah, he wants to ruin this guild member … but then what is he going to do? You've got economic control of a town; now what?

Because you can't be a merchant and an adventurer. You can't be running a financial empire while you plundering ancient tombs and fighting dragons. And realistically, this is the sort of thing that should take a while, although it will inevitably happen with enough time and gold.

If you're going to let him do this, you need to do one of the following:

1) Resolve it away from the gametable. Let him work out his little plan and be done with it by the next time you game. Then handwave it by saying the PCs have taken a long rest. Once he's done, have him appoint a proxy to manage his newfound financial empire.
2) Tell the player this is going to take a while and have him retire his character for a few sessions. Have him put in a replacement character while his old character is "working." If you like, let him do a few token rolls to represent what he's doing. Once he's done, have him appoint a proxy to manage his newfound financial empire.
3) Tell the player he has to retire the character. As I said, it's adventuring or bizness. Bring him back for the occasional quest.

After that, you've got to consider what the financial impact on the game would be of his action.

But otherwise, this thing isn't exactly unusual for Paragon level. I mean, players forge their own kingdoms at paragon.

jiriku
2009-11-17, 01:23 PM
So basically, my issue is this: What do you think will happen as the PC tries to economically muscle his way into the town? How do you think the guild leaders will react to this? What about the townsmen? On the one hand, he is an outsider, but on the other hand he is viewed as "The savior of the town."

Anyway, all thoughts will be appreciated.


Ok, first off, anyone named "Tzar Rex" shouldn't be running a baker's guild - he needs to start a pharmacy.

Ha! I'm so funny.

A guild war can be GREAT fun.
A general idea, free-forming off your description:

I'd say first of all, you want to decide who the movers and shakers are in town. Who are the leaders whose actions and decisions will decide whether the player succeeds or fails, while everyone else just goes along with whatever the outcome is? Second, decide which of those people are personally loyal to the establishment and not subject to persuasion, and which are either (1) loyal to the PC as savior, (2) unhappy with the current guild master and willing to try anyone new, or (3) gratuitously easy to bribe. Everyone not in either of those categories is Persuadable With Effort.

Ideally, you'll wind up with 40% Opposed, 40% Favorable, and 20% Persuadable With Effort. Give the players some means of identifying who is who. Success for the players will involve some combination of persuading the middle 20%, neutralizing the 40% opposed (through economic competition, politics, intimidation, or murder), and protecting the 40% favorable from the machinations of their opponents.


To hit some of your other questions:

Average townsfolt will probably be ok with it, owing to Tzar's hero status and his high diplomacy skill. And really, they're peasants; it's their lot in life to accept whatever outcomes fall out of the struggles of the powerful.

The guild leaders, on the other hand, are likely to react with extreme hostility. Tzar is threatening their power, their social standing, their jobs, their standard of living, and the future and security of their wives and children. They're likely to call in favors and exert political and legal pressure. They may try to get laws passed to stop the players, and use any political favors they have to put pressure on the Rex family to reign Tzar in, encourage the law to arrest the players on trumped-up charges, or engage in a propaganda war to ensure that Tzar takes the blame for any food shortages that result from the power struggle. I'm assuming that they're basically law-abiding citizens, so tactics like thuggery and violence are off the table, but if pushed hard, they might lean on the local lord to eject the players from the town, even threatening work stoppages or other civil disobediance to force the lord to comply.

And if they fail to stop the players, they'll be angry and resentful. Every time the former Baker's guild master sees Tzar around town, he might spit at his feet and make a point of crossing to the other side of the street to avoid him. Every time the town suffers because Tzar the new guildmaster makes a poor decision, the former guildmaster will be right there, loudly proclaiming that Tzar is unfit to run the guilds.


But really, get him to start a drugstore. "Tzar Rex Medicines".

LibraryOgre
2009-11-17, 01:23 PM
This is D&D, not sim city. If they want to play accountants and beaurocrats, give everyone else a chance to redo characters and get in on that. If they don't want to, NPC the character, because properly running a profitable venture takes time and effort that should be handled with more than a few die rolls.

Everyone IS in on it. My character, Optimus Prime, the Far Realm touched Warforged, is not terribly useful in it, but I'm enjoying watching it, and helping to strategize. Furthermore, most of the actual work (buying people and low-end bakers) is being done by NPCs... we're just the planning group, who are about to descend into a dungeon and beat people up.

That said, I have several ideas (that I fully intend to share with Tzar), mostly stolen from the Raymond Feist book "Rise of a Merchant Prince" (which I will also suggest to Hzurr and Tzar's player). One of the main things we need to do, as I see it, is start buying grain from farmers in the area... not from grain merchants, but directly from farmers. This does an end run around the grain merchants, and means that the bakers who want to stay in business have to do business with us. Our main goal is NOT to drive the average baker into penury... it is to break the organization of bakers, and bring them under our control (giving us an essential seat on the council).

Now, the bakers guild will know this... grain is their lifeblood. So, they're probably going to start buying up grain on their own. This means we also need to move on another front, which is the mills. While you can do a lot with hand querns, you're certainly not going to run several decent-sized bakeries on hand-ground grain. Even buying two or three mills will slow the bakers down a lot... a mill is a big prospect, and they can't be running with too much of a surplus grain capacity.

The main advantage that the baker's guilds have is that they're on the ground, now. They also have the nominal support of the other guilds, but they've also got their self-interest to worry about... if we are competent at supplying their needs, we have to hope they won't think "If the Rex can take over the Baker's, they can take over us."

Our upsides are sheer amounts of available cash. If we get two weeks, we'll be able to flood so much gold through the system that they simply won't be able to compete (think Mom and Pop v. Walmart). We've also got a degree of public support, which the bakers likely have only within their guild. We might also be able to hire some local talent, provided Tzar gets the stick out of his butt about bribing people for a decent amount of money. If we get desperate or vicious enough, we might start hiring people to wreck competing bakeries.

Indon
2009-11-17, 01:24 PM
You could employ the highly abstract attack system into this, for resolution.

Make them improvised attacks, Int/Wis/Cha (as appropriate) vs. Will (or Reflex for down-to-the-moment dealing, Wall Street style). Success means acquisition or otherwise economic dominance of the target. You have the minor players (down in one hit, essentially minions), the lead players (targets who can take, say, six hits before they fold, essentially normal monsters) and maybe one person, the lead of the guild or a minor noble invested in the industry, who would slug it out with him (12 hits, essentially an Elite).

Using this resolution mechanic opens up an easy resolution mechanic for their inevitable economic counterattacks!

LibraryOgre
2009-11-17, 01:31 PM
Ok, first off, anyone named "Tzar Rex" shouldn't be running a baker's guild - he needs to start a pharmacy.

His full name is "Tzartorious (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sartorial) Rex", actually. He is a very snappy dresser.

Hzurr
2009-11-17, 03:19 PM
First off, how closely are you following the plots of the Madness adventures? Was Shathrax the mind flayer still involved in the plot? If so, have the PCs defeated him? If your answers to the last two questions are "yes" and "no", then quite frankly the party has bigger concerns than financially ruining some head of a local guild.

The Party has found out about the lab beneath the statue of Estrid (or however you spell his name), and have discovered Cylus' body and realized that a mindflayer was the one who killed him. They're about to investigate crime scenes, and/or descend into the the layer/lab/sewers. Starting next session, things will be a bit of a dungeon crawl, so the PCs won't be able to personally deal with a lot of the issues personally, and a lot will be handled through proxies.



As far as not letting it bog down significant amounts of in-game time, I agree. We aren't going to role-play every single bribe, every single confrontation, and the months-long ordeal it would take to see this through to the end. A large portion of this is going to be taken care of out-of-game (I'm expecting a detailed email from the player later this week; although I think most of the basic ideas were outlined by Mark Hall above)

I like some of the points that jiriku mentioned. Particularly the idea about a propaganda war. This could possibly expand beyond the current town, and affect the reactions of people at other towns they arrive in. If they gain a reputation of driving existing merchants out of town, how will that change how merchants great them in the next town over? Will this make other people think twice about entering into business with the Rex family?

Also, the party already has a relatively impressive list of enemies they've made, who are interested in doing them harm (which is why one of the party members has a contract out on his life). By angering some people with a moderate amount of power, they also risk the guild leaders providing information and aid to some of the other enemies they've previously made.

Salz
2009-11-17, 03:31 PM
First off in Medieval Britain guilds were really supported by the local Lord, even the King. To the point where anyone selling Alcohol outside of the Innkeepers guild was breaking the law. So unless the player's have the support of the Lord, or the Lord just doesn't care then they have a bigger problem. (This may not apply to your world. Just figured I'd throw that out there.)

Second none of the other guilds are going to sit around and let this happen. If one guild's authority it undermined then it sets the example that guild's can be gotten around and are useless. Think of Europe after the American Revolution. Is that really a risk the rest of the guilds want to take? If it could happen to the Baker's guild it could happen to them.
(That is my take on it anyway.)

Next, since we're talking about economics here, the player's flooding the market with gold to achieve their goal as Mark Hall seems to imply is their trump card- that will crash the value of the gold. Inflation like crazy. I don't know how realistic you want economics, but that idea will put many small bakers out of business as they won't be able to afford the crazy prices and people won't be able to buy their bread. All unless the players sell their grain for a loss...

Heck, you could make a game out of this on it's own! It honestly sounds like a ton of fun and I wish the player's much luck.

dsmiles
2009-11-17, 03:42 PM
As my favorite character type (Charisma-based rogue), I managed to take over a moderate-sized trading empire, and expand it into it's own nation. Aaahhh...good times.
Politics and economics is as much a part of role-playing as slaying monsters is a part of roll-playing. If the entire party's not into it, do it as a sidebar for a half hour or so afte reach normal session. If the entire party's into it, more power to 'em.

LibraryOgre
2009-11-17, 03:58 PM
First off in Medieval Britain guilds were really supported by the local Lord, even the King. To the point where anyone selling Alcohol outside of the Innkeepers guild was breaking the law. So unless the player's have the support of the Lord, or the Lord just doesn't care then they have a bigger problem. (This may not apply to your world. Just figured I'd throw that out there.)

From what's been implied, this isn't a situation exactly analogous to medieval Britain. While the guilds might have originally required noble sanction, they're now developed economic and political entities, not reliant on the crown (for lack of a better word) for their existence. I imagine that, with a different lord, that might work out differently, but Christwell seems to be a fairly weak lord.

psYcHOtiChikEN
2009-11-17, 04:41 PM
The players have decided to take gaming in an economic direction. Why force them into a dungeon?

The price of grain effects more than just bakers. Actually the bakers might not be hit hard at all. If merchants are in the habit of marking up the price of goods then higher grain prices mean they can sell expensive bread and cake without being accused of gouging. Townspeople will still have to eat.

A variety of NPC adventures can enter the plot. If the players are accountants and bureaucrats the someone else has to do the adventures.

-Some Robin Hood types will naturally come to the defense of the starving peasants who can not afford to eat. How secure is the cash used to by all the grain?

-Maybe some paladins will stop by the local monastery where they are shocked by the wretched health of the pious but starving clergy. Imagine their wrath when they find out it was an organized plan.

-There is a tendency for riots to occur when food becomes scarce. A lot of influential people resent riots and the individuals responsible for starting them. The towns security apparatus will be offended by the food riots but a sheriff or lord will also be dealing with deputies that can not afford to buy food on their meager salaries.

Salz
2009-11-17, 04:49 PM
From what's been implied, this isn't a situation exactly analogous to medieval Britain. While the guilds might have originally required noble sanction, they're now developed economic and political entities, not reliant on the crown (for lack of a better word) for their existence. I imagine that, with a different lord, that might work out differently, but Christwell seems to be a fairly weak lord.


Yeah, rereading it I see where he says the Lord is pretty much inviting you guys in. Not necessarily at this level but still, I see what you're saying.

I feel the other points still stand and may be reinforced by this. If they do not have the authority of the crown to go on (the direct support) then they need to band together to make sure guilds as a whole stay a relevant structure (or at least people think they are). Because as I pointed out earlier, if one falls it shows the rest are vulnerable. It would all depend on the interrelations of the guilds and whether or not their differences and squabbles are smaller than this, or they can see the big picture (which isn't always easy if one guild really hates another).

LibraryOgre
2009-11-17, 04:54 PM
The players have decided to take gaming in an economic direction. Why force them into a dungeon?

Partially because we like to beat things up. :smallbiggrin:

The other part is that the town is under assault from Far Realms creatures in search of some artifact known as the "Tear of Ioun", and we, being heroes, need to find an neutralize the tear.


The price of grain effects more than just bakers. Actually the bakers might not be hit hard at all. If merchants are in the habit of marking up the price of goods then higher grain prices mean they can sell expensive bread and cake without being accused of gouging. Townspeople will still have to eat.

Actually, that's part of why we're trying to buy ourselves some bakers and millers. If we can produce bread for coppers, while the guild has to charge silvers, the guild bakers go out of business.

Oh, and I should mention that the major temple in town (Ioun) is on our side. The wizard who is supposed to be dead is a famous scholar. The high priestess is shagging him while he hides out, hoping for good genes.

Yukitsu
2009-11-17, 04:55 PM
If everyone is happy playing harvest moon instead of ninja gaiden, then I heartily recommend watching Yakitate Japan. It's basically what happens when you make baking based encounters.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-11-17, 05:26 PM
Oh ho, your PC is in for trouble.

The Guilds have power not "just because," but because they earned it.

(1) Why should their suppliers suddenly sell to the New Guy, when they've been dealing with the Guilds for ages?
Don't they care about the welfare of the guildmembers, and the good the Guilds have done for the suppliers in the past?

Your PC can't just "buy up" all the raw materials, if the suppliers won't sell. Remember, this is medieval times - people did business face-to-face, not between faceless corporations. Sure, some suppliers may defect - but they're going to get shunned by all the other loyal suppliers and the Guildmembers.

(2) How does the Guild deal with rogue members? Boycotts, thugs, legal sanctions?
Even the Hero of the People is vulnerable to The Law - unless he wants to take over the town, physically.

That's just two wrinkles. Make it an adventure - if he's serious about it. If token resistance is too much for him, he'll go off and do something else. Money isn't the issue - power is; and gaining power is always an adventure!

Hzurr
2009-11-17, 05:45 PM
The players have decided to take gaming in an economic direction. Why force them into a dungeon?

In general, I try to make sure that the PCs have a number of different options they can pursue at any given time. At the moment, I think that they're headed into a dungeon next; however I have no guarantee at the moment that that's where they'll go (they have a nasty habit of coming up with valid reasons to not do what I think is the next logical step...). The involvement in the local economy and government is something a bit new. The previous couple of sessions had been a bit encounter heavy, so this one was almost entirely role-play (with a few skill challenges worked in), and this is the direction it ended up taking (much to my surprise).



The Guilds have power not "just because," but because they earned it.

This is my biggest struggle right now, because I'm not sure how to show this power. In a straight up fight, the PCs would dominate, but they're going up against people who have made their living on this. The PCs have advantages with money, and the favor of the crowds; but they're a bit short on the experience end of the stick, and I'm not sure how to convey this struggle without having the entire game completely bog down in a game of "accountants & bureaucrats" as was mentioned earlier.

Yukitsu
2009-11-17, 05:47 PM
If they can't do it directly, just have the guild spike their yeast, making all the bread taste disgusting. It takes a real expert to know that the yeast is the problem. Then you'll just have to hope none of your players know how to properly make sourdough bread, which they could invent if they succeed in realizing what's going on, or if they stumble upon the technique.

If the players get bored of milling about town making bread, they can get back to saving the world, but as is, if they all want to RP being breadmakers, let them until they get tired of it. Then they can get back to saving the world, or failing at it as the case likely will be by then.

Doc Roc
2009-11-17, 05:52 PM
Exalted :smallwink:

++(Artanis->cookie);

Asbestos
2009-11-17, 06:00 PM
If they can't do it directly, just have the guild spike their yeast, making all the bread taste disgusting. It takes a real expert to know that the yeast is the problem. Then you'll just have to hope none of your players know how to properly make sourdough bread, which they could invent if they succeed in realizing what's going on, or if they stumble upon the technique.

Keep in mind that just because sourdough is invented, it doesn't mean anyone will like it. ESPECIALLY if its new and different. The crew of a Greek cruiser nearly mutinied in 1911 while visiting Britain because they had never encountered Blue Cheese before (they thought it was spoiled) and some Italian-communists nearly got killed when they went east to the USSR to help restart the dairy industry after WW2... and they started making Gorgonzola. A lot of people hate what's new and different. One man's delicacy is another's garbage.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-11-17, 06:03 PM
This is my biggest struggle right now, because I'm not sure how to show this power. In a straight up fight, the PCs would dominate, but they're going up against people who have made their living on this. The PCs have advantages with money, and the favor of the crowds; but they're a bit short on the experience end of the stick, and I'm not sure how to convey this struggle without having the entire game completely bog down in a game of "accountants & bureaucrats" as was mentioned earlier.
Why, through indirect effects.

The PCs try to buy up all the wheat - but nobody will sell to them! When asked, they're told "oh, I've been dealing with the Guild for ages - they're good people." If they manage to shell out enough gold, they hear that the supplier was run out of town by angry guildsmen.

Then the PCs try to sell the wheat to bakers - but nobody will buy! "I was apprenticed to the Guild, my father was apprentice to the Guild, and my kids will be apprenticed to the Guild. Ain't no way I'm crossing them."

Then the PCs try to set up their own bakery. Oh, the local masons won't build it for them? "Solidarity, brother!"

Fine, the PCs hire outside workers to build, when they're informed by the town council that they cannot build a bakery on that land. Why? "Lord's order. All new bakeries need a writ from the Lord."

Damn it all! We'll build it anyway! The PCs then find themselves in a showdown with the local Watch. Do they really want to fight the lawful order in the land? And be declared Outlaws by the higher authorities?

...and so on :smallamused:

EDIT: Note that each instance is an encounter in itself - and dealing with it is a perfectly legitimate adventure. Why, the PCs might decide to get a writ from a powerful church to build a new chapel... which just so happens to also produce baked goods. It's one thing to hustle out some adventurers - but does the Lord really want to go against the Church?

Or, if the PCs are "grayer" than that - well, if the Guilds are going to play rough, maybe they should find a Guild of their own - a Thieves' Guild :smallbiggrin:

Yukitsu
2009-11-17, 06:03 PM
It's not too far out there. It's like a sour rye, but with a slightly different texture, so I doubt it would be too foreign.

Asbestos
2009-11-17, 06:07 PM
It's not too far out there. It's like a sour rye, but with a slightly different texture, so I doubt it would be too foreign.

Yeah, but its the sour part. Also, people don't generally use sourdough for all bread needs. Sour-eggy bread? sour-bread crumbs in meat loaf? sour-egg in the basket? :smallyuk:

Yukitsu
2009-11-17, 06:11 PM
This may be because I'm poor, and thus my options are limited, but those are all delicious to me. :smallconfused:

Asbestos
2009-11-17, 06:11 PM
This may be because I'm poor, and thus my options are limited, but those are all delicious to me. :smallconfused:

Like I said, different tastes. Keep in mind that these people won't have limited options (established bakers). Also, its purely hypothetical that sourdough will be involved!

Gamerlord
2009-11-17, 06:18 PM
Well I don't have a DDI subscription, so I don't know what adventure you speak of but are all the other players willing to do this? If they want too, let them, they might all have a role, a fighter or barbarian can "convince" people. A rouge or other sneaky dude can cause a "accident" in the bakers guild house that might be rather costly to repair, or assassinate a high-ranking guilds member. A bard or other charismatic leader can help this "Tzar" fellow with his diplomatic efforts, etc. Also if your group enjoys role playing, this is a gold mine for them.

Of course any powerful guild has more then enough money to recruit quite a few bruisers, and a guild war may start.... and lets not forget that any self-respecting farmer must be pretty tough, so the bakers guild already has quite a bit of muscle.

icefractal
2009-11-18, 03:57 AM
Ok, I'm fully aware that PCs should never be given too much power...Right here is where I disagree. They're at paragon levels. They face threats of widespread doom. Taking over the grain business of a town - heck, taking over a town entirely - is entirely in line with the kind of power they should have.

But I guess not everyone agrees. I'm seeing a lot of suggestions that seem to account to "Make it incredibly hard, and then if they succeed make them hated by all merchants, or become outlaws, or something. That'll show them that just because they face threats from the far realms, doesn't mean they can disrespect some bakers!" I mean, it doesn't have to be a cakewalk, but gaining political power in a single town is not some kind of over-the-top power trip that should be reserved for epic levels.

Yukitsu
2009-11-18, 04:20 AM
Considering the typical adventuring party, I'd wonder at how many of them would actually be competent at baking, or how many of them realize that even if you're the only baker in town, you'll only be making a handful of change in profit every year. Taking over a town with bread, even as a paragon dude should be pretty bloody hard.

icefractal
2009-11-18, 04:49 AM
Well, they're not trying to do the baking themselves, AFAIK - more like owning a share in every bakery. Although the way 4E skills work, they would actually be decent at it.

And taking over a town with loads of money and a heroic reputation is not some unreasonable plan. Why would it be a problem if they had good odds of success?

Sir Homeslice
2009-11-18, 04:52 AM
I fully endorse this campaign being about a bunch of paragon-tier chefs doing downright bizarre things with bread-baking.

So basically, I fully endorse Yakitate Japan levels of ridiculousness.

MickJay
2009-11-18, 05:08 AM
The guild will have some members+hired muscle to defend its interests, and any attempt to take over should result in hostility from the other guilds. Since this is a town, at least 1/3 of people there would belong to or be linked with one of the guilds. Expect a conflict with all of the skilled tradesmen - and if they decide to leave the town, you'll be left with a few hundred unskilled labourers there, not really worth the effort. Trying to figure out how to avoid that should be the biggest challenge.

Yukitsu
2009-11-18, 08:26 AM
Well, they're not trying to do the baking themselves, AFAIK - more like owning a share in every bakery. Although the way 4E skills work, they would actually be decent at it.

And taking over a town with loads of money and a heroic reputation is not some unreasonable plan. Why would it be a problem if they had good odds of success?

Buying it outright is one thing, and sadly more feasible, but making it happen through the bread making is completely another.

dsmiles
2009-11-18, 08:35 AM
Buying it outright is one thing, and sadly more feasible, but making it happen through the bread making is completely another.

Yeah, it's called "role-playing." Give it a try sometime.

Yukitsu
2009-11-18, 08:38 AM
Yeah, it's called "role-playing." Give it a try sometime.

Thanks for the unwarranted hostility, but frankly RPing doesn't make infeasible ideas work unless the DM lets them work. I don't know whether this is the case, but until I know for sure, they'd likely not succeed in getting much control over the city with bread. 3.5 exemplars could do it, but that's because the rules for fanaticism are stupid.

Wulfram
2009-11-18, 09:20 AM
If the PCs want to spend lots of money and effort acquiring new enemies and establishing a business which isn't likely to be very profitable, then they should be allowed to.

Green Bean
2009-11-18, 09:52 AM
Oh ho, your PC is in for trouble.

The Guilds have power not "just because," but because they earned it.

(1) Why should their suppliers suddenly sell to the New Guy, when they've been dealing with the Guilds for ages?
Don't they care about the welfare of the guildmembers, and the good the Guilds have done for the suppliers in the past?

Your PC can't just "buy up" all the raw materials, if the suppliers won't sell. Remember, this is medieval times - people did business face-to-face, not between faceless corporations. Sure, some suppliers may defect - but they're going to get shunned by all the other loyal suppliers and the Guildmembers.

But the PCs aren't "faceless corporations". They have faces, and those faces belong to the heroes of the town, backed up by an excellent Diplomacy score. Especially since the folks who the monsters were attacking were the farmers.

If the guy who slew the creature who killed your cousin/daughter/friend wants to buy up your stock, why say no? He's done more for you than those tightarse guildies ever did. Why, just last week he said he thought he saw bugs on your crop and refused to pay until you knocked a third off the price, and it isn't like you could sell it anywhere else.

There's always people dissatisfied with the status quo. Heck, if you bring some of the bakers onto your side, you don't even need the suppliers. Just subsidize your loyalists' long enough to drive the opposition out of business with a price war.


(2) How does the Guild deal with rogue members? Boycotts, thugs, legal sanctions?
Even the Hero of the People is vulnerable to The Law - unless he wants to take over the town, physically.

The problem with this is that the PCs have a nice, big funding advantage. Thugs can be bribed, or guards can be hired. Legal action is a bit trickier, but even if the lord is politically weak enough to be persuaded to move against "the heroes of the town", it is doubtful that the heads of the other guilds would be. And boycotts are easier said than done when the PCs are selling bread at half-price, and you only really control the guild members. How are they going to stop Joe Q. Peasant from buying the really cheap bread instead of their expensive guild version?

Honestly, though, I don't see this lasting too long. Guilds tend to be the closest thing to medieval democracies, and the individual merchants won't like getting in a trade war because their leader shot off his mouth. As soon as they see Tzar is serious, the boss will probably be replaced with someone a bit more conciliatory.

Lysander
2009-11-18, 11:12 AM
There is one paramount thing that will determine whether your players can succeed:

Are the guilds keeping the price of bread artificially high through a monopoly, or is bread selling at a fair market price?

If the former then your players have a chance of trust-busting and capturing profits unfairly taken by the guild. If the latter, your players can increase bread production and temporarily lower the market cost of bread, but it will just be a way for Rex to lose money in order to spite the guilds.

Asbestos
2009-11-18, 11:22 AM
What if the wheat farmers realize they control the means of production and take over the economy themselves? What do the PCs do then?

Johel
2009-11-18, 11:24 AM
Are the guilds keeping the price of bread artificially high through a monopoly, or is bread selling at a fair market price?

If the former then your players have a chance of trust-busting and capturing profits unfairly taken by the guild. If the latter, your players can increase bread production and temporarily lower the market cost of bread, but it will just be a way for Rex to lose money in order to spite the guilds.

If the guild is anything close to what medieval guilds were IRL, then it's a law-enforced monopoly, since a guild had specific privilege to be the exclusive producer and seller of specific goods in a town. That's it, the guilds paid the local lord to have exclusive trade rights.

Now, the usual DnD settings are closer to the American Far West than they are to medieval Europe, since the free market system is basically the rule while such things are traditionally frown upon in feudal societies.

So, in a "accurate" medieval setting, the PC who tries to sell bread at half price will in fact commit a crime, since he isn't a guild member, hasn't get the right to do so from the guild and isn't even respecting the guild's standards. Since the guild would have bought these privileges to the local lord, you can be sure they'll do whatever they can to charge a legal complain.

Tiki Snakes
2009-11-18, 11:44 AM
Okay, so, it's a guild of bakers. Sure, okay, maybe they are relatively well off. Maybe they won't be happy to see the PC's muscle in.


But they are BAKERS. This is not the theives guild. This is not an Assassin's guild. What kind of Baker's union regularly finds a need to employ hardened warriors? Really now? Cause basically, the way I see it, all this talk of them hiring thugs is pretty laughable when you remember that we're talking about a Paragon Tier adventuring party that saved the town.

Now, 'No Scabs!' style group solidarity is one possibility, though taking it to the extent suggested in some of these posts would be a little ridiculous.

But frankly, the only thing that the pc's have to fear from the Bakers, really, is that they will stop them taking over the baking industry. There is really nothing else they can conceivably do or threaten such heroes with, short of things getting awesomely hilarious.
Cue the Dwarven Battle Bread!

Tyndmyr
2009-11-18, 11:51 AM
Right here is where I disagree. They're at paragon levels. They face threats of widespread doom. Taking over the grain business of a town - heck, taking over a town entirely - is entirely in line with the kind of power they should have.

But I guess not everyone agrees. I'm seeing a lot of suggestions that seem to account to "Make it incredibly hard, and then if they succeed make them hated by all merchants, or become outlaws, or something. That'll show them that just because they face threats from the far realms, doesn't mean they can disrespect some bakers!" I mean, it doesn't have to be a cakewalk, but gaining political power in a single town is not some kind of over-the-top power trip that should be reserved for epic levels.

Oh, Im for it. If the players want to do it, let em try. Like any power though, gaining it should require overcoming the appropriate challenges. That's really all you need to worry about.

Yakk
2009-11-18, 11:55 AM
First, the players are at Paragon level. That means that unless the guild they are attacking is very strong, they should bowl it over.

At the same time, the guild might resist, or offer to negotiate, or both.

Second, note that people will be trying to undercut the guild all of the time -- PCs will not be the first one. The guild has survived -- ask yourself how it survived. There should be multiple overlapping answers. Does it have a royal monopoly? Does it shake down people who break the rules? Does it have an agreement with other monopolies? Does it maintain stocks sufficient to drive any compeditor out of business? Does it have trade secrets? Does it have a deal with the fey to not spoil their bread?

In short, why is the guild in existence. Answer that question, and you have the answer to the question 'how hard will it be for the players to attack the guild on their home turf'.

These are paragon tier PCs; by default assumption, by this point, attacking a guild and winning is well within the intended power scale of the characters. But it should be made interesting, or it should be made short. I'd prefer to make it interesting!

Oh, and do some judo -- if the players are interested in taking out the guild, make the guild part of the adventure plot. By doing this, you can retroactively take the player's whim and make it the right choice, and inspire your own creativity.

Lysander
2009-11-18, 12:14 PM
The other question here is the opportunity cost (aka is this the best use of their time?). I think it goes without saying that your players CAN succeed here. They are paragon level and more importantly they're players and the entire world is built around them. If they really want to economically dominate a town you're going to let them. Plain as that.

But is personally overseeing the annexation of a baker's guild really the best way of doing this? This is kind of like Superman competing with Nabisco and spending all his time trying to take over the market for cookies.

If they're so rich they can hire representatives to take care of this kind of stuff for them. Your players are CEOs. They're big picture people. Just tell them "it's going to cost X much to take over the town, and running this business will probably turn a profit of X per year." If they think its worth the hefty initial cost just say "your merchants and lawyers handle the paperwork."

Asbestos
2009-11-18, 12:27 PM
If only the character were Epic, then they could try to usurp the god of bakers. At paragon they might have to settle for stealing a super-secret and super-tasty recipe from some fey, be they eladrin, hags, or some Babba Yaga figure (though she might be considered low Epic tier)

Oracle_Hunter
2009-11-18, 01:42 PM
@ Green Bean

But the PCs aren't "faceless corporations". They have faces, and those faces belong to the heroes of the town, backed up by an excellent Diplomacy score. Especially since the folks who the monsters were attacking were the farmers.

If the guy who slew the creature who killed your cousin/daughter/friend wants to buy up your stock, why say no? He's done more for you than those tightarse guildies ever did. Why, just last week he said he thought he saw bugs on your crop and refused to pay until you knocked a third off the price, and it isn't like you could sell it anywhere else.

There's always people dissatisfied with the status quo. Heck, if you bring some of the bakers onto your side, you don't even need the suppliers. Just subsidize your loyalists' long enough to drive the opposition out of business with a price war.
A Guild does not persist out of sheer momentum - as Yakk pointed out, people are always trying to take over powerful institutions. As much as the "selling wheat to sexy PCs" argument is compelling, note that it cannot be a long-term strategy. Social control is powerful - the farmers might sell this week out of gratitude, but what about next week when the Guild members are all upset that they have to buy their wheat from the PCs in order to stay in business? Unlike the Guild, the PCs just got there; they're outsiders, waging a war against a multi-generational institution.

The same is true for Guild defectors. The Guild has some way of punishing them, or it wouldn't still be in power.
That said, I agree with Yakk's course of action. At Paragon (a fact I didn't notice originally :smallredface:) you can certainly make one-man attacks on institutions, but do consider the ramifications.

(1) You're not using your own money. Eventually the merchant family is going to call an account - and if the PC has been throwing gold around to buy wheat well above market value, and then sell his bread at a loss, the merchant family is going to want a very good reason as to why this is a better use of its money than, say, making a profit.

(2) You are upsetting the power structure in a decent-sized city. OK, now you're the boss - can you keep it? The other 2 mega-Guilds are going to try to undermine you, the stupid Lord is going to start looking towards you for advice, and every other climber in town is going to be keeping an eye on you - ready to jump when the adventurers get bored of baking and leave. Power vacuum doesn't even describe it.

You can handwave this and just use it as a hook to get on to a better adventure, but I, for one, would make the PC suffer consequences for a petty display of unearned power.

Drider
2009-11-18, 02:29 PM
Are they just taking over the bakers? What about the iron smiths and leather tanners? Are they gonna throw their political power around also, and not offer services to people who accept scab work? Are the pcs taking over one at a time, all at once, or only the one who insulted him? An assassin guild might be able to be bought, but they might not want to kill heads of guilds, the precedant that sets is'nt one the head of assassins enjoys(the "whoops, your drink was poisoned sir, guess I'll be taking over" kind)

The iron smiths probably have some pull with the town guard(We make your armor, they are doing this illegally, get up and do something) and the leather workers probably have a neutral-esque relationship with adventurers, Although negative based on you trying to take over one of "them".
Perhaps they could be bribed(one leatherworker at a time, at least, who would be your secret "inside-man")with rare and exotic monster skin for specialty orders, he'd obviously keep it as quiet as possible, but having an ally who realizes the guilds are going under and come to the PCs as they are coming to power, they'd just "jump off the sinking ship" and join you.

Fhaolan
2009-11-18, 02:38 PM
Let him take over the town. It doesn't actually give the player any more power than he has right now due to his level, and if you want it will *hamper* the character later.

Let's go theoretical:

So he controls all the food production/distribution in this one town. He takes over everything, destroys the baker's guild, etc.

Now what? Given that the business only takes over from the Guild because the character is funding it, to continue this level of control it will require a constant drain on the character's funds. The town will prosper and all that, but it will be at the character's expense. Literally.

Or he basically re-establishes the Guild with himself as the head of it, with all the prices put back where he found them. This will be noticed eventually as a 'no net gain' by the Lord, and the general populace, and they will question why this was done. Former Guildmaster: 'So all this was done as a personal vendetta because a jumped-up mercenary that has pretensions of gentility got his nose in a twist.' The story will spread amongst merchants, as such things are wont to do, and it *will* get back to the character's family as a ding against them.

This also means that he has to stay in the town as Guildmaster, otherwise his control will fall apart again, and the original Guild will come back while at the same time doing considerable damage to his merchant family's reputation. So quote the former Guildmaster 'See? I told you that family was trash. The second their attention is taken by the next shiny thing, we get abandoned and our children starve. Oh, of *course* I'll help do what I can, but repairing the damage done by those horrible adventurers is going to take time and money. Petition the Lord to lower the taxes for our reborn Guild for a few years, why don't you?'

If he puts a minion in as a puppet Guildmaster, that might work, but then this become a minor background detail that means the character will get constant reports from his puppet, 'Rye was bad. No profits this year.' 'Lord raised taxes. No profits this year.' 'Krispy Kreme opened a franchise in the area. Enchanted donuts causing addiction. Loosing workers. No profits this year. Help.'

There's no real *power* to be gained here, other than shackles to hold the character back.

You can always turn power into a shackle as DM. It's trivial, and it's usually a bad idea as all it does is piss off the players.

You're better of just making a note on his character that he's now got trade control over this one town and gets sent a regular stipend of 100gp a year for the profits from the business. That's after taxes, wages, etc.

Myrmex
2009-11-18, 02:39 PM
Considering the typical adventuring party, I'd wonder at how many of them would actually be competent at baking, or how many of them realize that even if you're the only baker in town, you'll only be making a handful of change in profit every year. Taking over a town with bread, even as a paragon dude should be pretty bloody hard.

...
You use capital & leverage. They never have to so much as touch the flour.


Well, they're not trying to do the baking themselves, AFAIK - more like owning a share in every bakery. Although the way 4E skills work, they would actually be decent at it.

And taking over a town with loads of money and a heroic reputation is not some unreasonable plan. Why would it be a problem if they had good odds of success?

Because Yuskisu hates people having fun, I guess. If you're not playing the game like him, you're playing the wrong way.


Okay, so, it's a guild of bakers. Sure, okay, maybe they are relatively well off. Maybe they won't be happy to see the PC's muscle in.


But they are BAKERS. This is not the theives guild. This is not an Assassin's guild. What kind of Baker's union regularly finds a need to employ hardened warriors? Really now? Cause basically, the way I see it, all this talk of them hiring thugs is pretty laughable when you remember that we're talking about a Paragon Tier adventuring party that saved the town.

Now, 'No Scabs!' style group solidarity is one possibility, though taking it to the extent suggested in some of these posts would be a little ridiculous.

But frankly, the only thing that the pc's have to fear from the Bakers, really, is that they will stop them taking over the baking industry. There is really nothing else they can conceivably do or threaten such heroes with, short of things getting awesomely hilarious.
Cue the Dwarven Battle Bread!

It really depends on how important a commodity bread is, how much money bakers are making off of it, and if they can rely on the state's monopoly of force. If bread is a lucrative business, is regularly targeted by thieves, hostile take overs, monsters, or orcish war parties, and cannot rely on the town guard to solve their problems, then it would make sense that they have access to muscle.

I don't see bread makers as having the sort of capital to invest in armed resistance (maybe an assassin?), as I imagine the profit margins for bread aren't that great. Now, if the guild is an empire spanning organization, then they would definitely have the resources to bring their "Special Actions Committee" to bear.

Of course, baking bread could be a lot more important in a pseudo-medieval world, as bread was enormously important to the diets of peasants.

And for those of you knocking the political clout of bakers, I give you La Guerra de los Pasteles, or The War of the Cakes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the_Cakes).

Yukitsu
2009-11-18, 02:44 PM
They have capitol and leverage. They could literally just buy the entire town, or depose the lord and take his place, or any number of things. The bread thing doesn't really seem, well, necessary to taking over the town. The final goal is basically a cakewalk, but doing it the way they're trying is rather, well, odd.

You know, it's like those evil overlord schemes that are incredibly complicated, when all you really need to do is shoot the hero in the forhead.

Also, I never claimed it would be hard to succeed in selling bread after a while, I just don't follow how that leads to any sort of political gain, as opposed to a bit of change in their pockets every season.

Milskidasith
2009-11-18, 02:47 PM
They have capitol and leverage. They could literally just buy the entire town, or depose the lord and take his place, or any number of things. The bread thing doesn't really seem, well, necessary to taking over the town. The final goal is basically a cakewalk, but doing it the way they're trying is rather, well, odd.

You know, it's like those evil overlord schemes that are incredibly complicated, when all you really need to do is shoot the hero in the forhead.

They aren't even sure if they are taking over the town... they just want to get rid of the bakers. It wouldn't be that hard considering their wealth and influence, and if they wanted to do it by bribing guild members and the farmers they saved to work for them, then there's no reason to stop them.

Myrmex
2009-11-18, 02:51 PM
They have capitol and leverage. They could literally just buy the entire town, or depose the lord and take his place, or any number of things. The bread thing doesn't really seem, well, necessary to taking over the town. The final goal is basically a cakewalk, but doing it the way they're trying is rather, well, odd.

You know, it's like those evil overlord schemes that are incredibly complicated, when all you really need to do is shoot the hero in the forhead.

Also, I never claimed it would be hard to succeed in selling bread after a while, I just don't follow how that leads to any sort of political gain, as opposed to a bit of change in their pockets every season.

Because use of aggressive force when you're supposed to be the hero attracts the wrong attention. If instead you come to power leading a populist movement while keeping strong ties with the mercantile class, you're going to be the target of far fewer paladin raiding parties.

Subotei
2009-11-18, 04:21 PM
A really savvy guild would buy up the cheap flour themselves (anonymously), and export it out of town for their own profit - that way they could survive until the PCs money ran out. Charm person is a more direct approach....

Sebastian
2009-11-18, 04:31 PM
Yeah, I pretty much second everything HereticNox said there.
Also, I can't help but feel that unless this is a very gritty and low-power game, it'd be hard to justify a group of adventurers fearing the reaction of....MR BUN, THE BAKER!

Which will just make it funnier when he sends some vaguely floury ninja's round.

Or some gingerbread golems. :)

Yukitsu
2009-11-18, 04:35 PM
Because use of aggressive force when you're supposed to be the hero attracts the wrong attention. If instead you come to power leading a populist movement while keeping strong ties with the mercantile class, you're going to be the target of far fewer paladin raiding parties.

I didn't recommend attacking them. I mean they could walk into town, slap the baron with a bag of loot worth the GDP of a modest nation, and say "we're the barons around here now." I don't think the paladins would care one way or the other, unless you turn out to be some sort of tyrant.

Buying titles was a practice of the age, though not often necessarily to that level. But basically, they could just waltz into a town and have all the influence they could want. More so than can be attained from zany bread based schemes.

Gamerlord
2009-11-18, 04:38 PM
A few of my cents:
They don't need to worry about the legal system, a good enough diplomacy check and they can represent themselves in court with ease.
A desperate guild might turn to rather-CE means.

Salz
2009-11-18, 04:39 PM
I see alot of people posting that they have the capital and are the Heroes of the town.

As from my first post:

How Heroic are they when they crash the economy with this captial? I don't know how realistically the economy is being run, but massive influx of capital will increase the money supply to the point where it is worthless. Massive inflation and you're pissing off a whole lot of folks. Not just in this town here either, probably in quite a few of the nearby ones as well.

For one of the player's or GM, is this how it is being run? Or is it more of a D&D economics don't line up with real world ones so we're ignoring that? (I know that can be the case with magic. I don't play much D&D anymore, mainly Harnmaster which has an AMAZINGLY detailed world and economy.)

Severus
2009-11-18, 04:55 PM
If the PCs want to spend lots of money and effort acquiring new enemies and establishing a business which isn't likely to be very profitable, then they should be allowed to.

I agree.

For a rich adventurer, it is mindlessly simple to obliterate the baker's guild.

Offer farmers twice the going rate for grain. Sell grain at going rate only to merchants/bakers who support you.

You will lose money for a while, and the bakers who don't back you will go out of business because they lose access to their raw materials. (Providing you can buy from a broad enough base and they can't just ship it in.).

If you have the economic muscle to do it, and want to, go for it.

Though I would personally think that this would be over pretty quick. The guildmaster who insulted you would get overthrown, and the remaining bakers would politely ask you if you'd like his job.

They're bakers and businessmen, not warriors. Feuding with people with deeper pockets and an axe to grind is a great way to go bankrupt and beggar themselves. They won't do it. Or at least so many of them won't do it that the current baker guildmaster won't be able to hold onto his position in the face of the pressure.

So, GM takes away a certain amount of money from group, makes sure they don't really botch anything, then gives them the job. Such is the power of money.

That's my .02.

Thalnawr
2009-11-18, 06:29 PM
I guess it depends on if the Breadmaster and Buttery Pat are part of the baker's guild or not...

sentaku
2009-11-18, 07:33 PM
So how much does Tzar dislike the tanner's and ironworker's leaders compared to the head of the bakers guild? If he is willing to work with with them then taking over the bakers guild to spite the guild leader is pretty boring. Instead have Rex family expend there influence into the town of Wellspring, but instead of taking over the tanner's and ironworker's guilds make them more profitable, much more profitable. As for the baker's guild don't do anything just keep them restricted to the town of Wellspring like I'm presuming they currently are. Introduce new food, and other items for the ironworker's and tanners's to spend there new money on so the baker's guild doesn't make extra money. In other words let it be known to the member's of the baker's guild that there leader has seriously undermined there potential profits and if fact with new food outside of there influence they might even be making less. (though you don't want them to go out of business)

If the member's of the guild are any type of business men/woman/other genders this should lead to one of the following.

1. The current guild leader graveling at Tzar's feet asking for forgiveness and to be part of the part of the Rex merchant family.

2. The head of the guild being replaced and the new head graveling at Tzar's feet asking for forgiveness for the former heads actions and to be part of the
part of the Rex merchant family.



Then of course feel free to crush everyone.

Gamerlord
2009-11-18, 07:41 PM
One question: Why doesn't the rouge or another sneaky dude just KILL THE GUILDMASTER IN HIS SLEEP!

Green Bean
2009-11-18, 09:01 PM
One question: Why doesn't the rouge or another sneaky dude just KILL THE GUILDMASTER IN HIS SLEEP!

Why crush a man when you can crush his dreams? Plus, it's legal! :smallcool:

Gamerlord
2009-11-18, 09:16 PM
Why crush a man when you can crush his dreams? Plus, it's legal! :smallcool:

A rouge of paragon level can kill him and cover it up with ease, and the sorcerer can be his lawyer in court if all else fails.

Green Bean
2009-11-18, 09:19 PM
A rouge of paragon level can kill him and cover it up with ease, and the sorcerer can be his lawyer in court if all else fails.

I don't care how much makeup you use to kill the guy. Dead guys don't know they've been beaten, which is lame.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-11-19, 01:21 PM
I don't care how much makeup you use to kill the guy. Dead guys don't know they've been beaten, which is lame.
They do if you use Trap the Soul :smallamused:

Yeah, yeah, no Trap the Soul in 4E. Me, I'd allow a Paragon-level Ritual to extract the soul from someone's living body and encase it in a gemstone. Then you can use the gem to make a pimpin' pinky ring and wear it to all future meetings with the Lord and the other Guildmasters :smallbiggrin:

Hzurr
2009-11-19, 05:49 PM
One question: Why doesn't the rouge or another sneaky dude just KILL THE GUILDMASTER IN HIS SLEEP!

We haven't had a sneaky person in the party since the rogue died in Keep on the Shadowfell.

The relationship with the other two guilds is...thoroughly neutral. They don't exactly like the PCs, but they recognize their contribution to the town. However, when it comes time to choose sides, they'll almost definitely side with the other guild.

Johel
2009-11-19, 06:14 PM
They do if you use Trap the Soul :smallamused:

Yeah, yeah, no Trap the Soul in 4E. Me, I'd allow a Paragon-level Ritual to extract the soul from someone's living body and encase it in a gemstone. Then you can use the gem to make a pimpin' pinky ring and wear it to all future meetings with the Lord and the other Guildmasters :smallbiggrin:

Awesome way to say "-I'm big and I'm in charge" :smallamused:

Tiki Snakes
2009-11-19, 06:44 PM
Actually, there ARE two rituals at least that can, potentially, permenantly imprison someone.

I don't think either are exactly as low as paragon, though. (At least one Primal, and one Arcane, btw)

Yakk
2009-11-19, 06:49 PM
Actually, the big problem would be you'd be causing mass starvation.

Really: members of the baker's guild that they aren't selling wheat to are the only bakers in town. Nobody else knows how to bake bread.

And in many economies, bread is a staple food.

So now, by buying up the wheat (which, by the way, is probably stored in huge silos, owned by the baker's guild, because you only harvest wheat 1 or a few times per year), you are cutting off the supply of bread to the people (as an aside, where are you storing the wheat? If you don't have the expertise to store it, you'll ruin it. So you are building a silo? And hiring people out of the baker's guild who know how to store wheat?)

Maybe you will find some people who are willing to bake bread: but they probably are not sufficient to supply enough bread to the entire population.

This won't happen immediately, because the grain storehouses will have an excess supply of wheat (for lean years, or sieges) to a certain extent.

On top of that, the ability to corner the market on wheat is a serious one. I cannot see it not being illegal to do this (ie, if there is a wheat shortage due to hording, the law will just make it the law that you must sell wheat for a certain price, in order to prevent a revolt).

All of these, of course, are just complications that can be thrown at the party as unintended consequences of destroying resources. The important part isn't all of this simulation crap: it is making the choice interesting and plot relevant.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-11-19, 07:03 PM
All of these, of course, are just complications that can be thrown at the party as unintended consequences of destroying resources. The important part isn't all of this simulation crap: it is making the choice interesting and plot relevant.
Yeah... to a point.

Personally, I bristle at the notion of a PC abusing his background for spiteful ends. It's one thing to use your wealthy family to get an audience with the Lord; it's another thing entirely to gain a nigh-unlimited bank account for the sole purpose of spiting a relatively minor power. This sort of behavior should not be encouraged - so yeah, make it interesting, but also throw in some unintended consequences so that the PC (or, at the very least, the rest of the party) doesn't feel vindicated by his choice.

I don't really view this as "punishing the player" any more than, say, throwing a random night encounter at a narcoleptic party that insists on sleeping in the middle of the dungeon.

...say, how does the rest of the party feel about this course of action? Are they totally cool with spending a few weeks to topple the terrible tyranny of the Bakers? Really, that should be the guiding principle in deciding how to deal with this - if they're irritated, then all you need to do is to convince Tzar that this is a worthless course of action.

LibraryOgre
2009-11-21, 03:01 AM
An e-mail I sent to our group:


Given what [Hzurr] told us, then, I think the obvious move is to start working on the street-level bakers. Start talking up the advantages to the Rex's coming into town (becoming a major stop as they expand eastward, leading to lots of caravans coming through and needing bread for the road, fresh animals and harnesses, oxtongues and banking services), and point out that the current head of the baking guild is threatening that. While we're doing that, we need to find an influential baker who is willing to play ball... someone who CAN take over the guild, and will then run it favorably to the Rex's.

On the street level, make low or no interest loans to people to help them expand their business, or just get them through a rough patch. We may want some bread and circuses... it was a good start buying out that one cart's worth of food, but if we do that frequently, everyone in town has fuller bellies (and are thus happy with us) and whoever we buy out that day is happy with us, too.

In most cities, we'd also have to look at the clergy. While we know that the priesthood of Ioun will not oppose us (I don't know that we can count on her to back the Rex's taking over the town because she likes Berry), we might also want to make some more of those loans on Temple Row... I think Erathis, for her focus on trade, and Bahamut, for his connection with the Rex's, would be good places to start.

Now, while they're only bakers, realize they're one of three economic powerhouses in the city. My bet is that the Baker's Guild includes things like brewers, innkeepers, and the grain exchange. Heck, they may even include doctors, though I imagine that leans more towards the temples and maybe the Tanners (who are also likely the Teamsters and Leatherworkers).