Elven Gender in OoTS

[ADZAELL]

So reading all the "V is male" and "V is female" threads, i am wondering, has anyone considered the possibility that elves are genderless or hemaphroditic, or even tri-gendered or tetra-gendered?

[kpenguin]

Yes, this theory has come up numerous times. It has been supported with examples of other elves of indefinite gender and been attacked by examples of elves of gender, namely Lirian.

[Berserk Monk]

Yes, this theory has come up numerous times. It has been supported with examples of other elves of indefinite gender and been attacked by examples of elves of gender, namely Lirian.

Yeah, everyone knows Lirian is a dude.

[Katana_Geldar]

I am wondering if there's a split between High Elves and ordinary elves, with high elves like V and Kyrie being ambigiously gendered and ordinary elves like Lirian and Keeno being of a definite gender.

[Andore Mordre]

Yeah, everyone knows Lirian is a dude.

<insert Katana's avatar here>

[Darius1020]

I am wondering if there's a split between High Elves and ordinary elves, with high elves like V and Kyrie being ambigiously gendered and ordinary elves like Lirian and Keeno being of a definite gender.

Who is that?

[Yuoaman]

I am wondering if there's a split between High Elves and ordinary elves, with high elves like V and Kyrie being ambigiously gendered and ordinary elves like Lirian and Keeno being of a definite gender.

I know that Lirian is definitely a female, though I don't have a clue who Keeno is... And you may have something there...

[MReav]

I think Zz'Dtri is a male, due to V using male pronouns to address him. Unlike everyone else, an elf should recognize what each other is.

Or Zz'Dtri is one of those third genders, and the Common language lacks a proper appellation for them.

[Morty]

The existence of half-elves like Pompey disproves that theory, I think.

[rewinn]

So reading all the "V is male" and "V is female" threads, i am wondering, has anyone considered the possibility that elves are genderless or hemaphroditic, or even tri-gendered or tetra-gendered?

If V and similar magic-users view the laws of physics as mere suggestions, gender may be not terribly important, especially given the option of polymorphing.

Elves may pay more attention to mating type than to gender because they are Fun Guys (http://www.biologynews.net/archives/2008/03/17/fungi_can_tell_us_about_the_origin_of_sex_chromoso mes.html)

[dps]

The existence of half-elves like Pompey disproves that theory, I think.

It would mean that all elves aren't genderless, but it could still be that some types of elves are, while other types aren't.

[Carnivorous_Bea]

All I can add to this discussion is the fact that V was apparently totally unable to tell the difference between Roy when he's male and Roy when he was female ... and I mean totally unable. :smallbiggrin: He seems to be completely ignorant of gender, and unable to identify the physical traits. Specifically --

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0237.html

It makes me wonder about my previous theory about him being a homosexual guy -- maybe Inkyrius is, but V is a just a guy who was unable to tell which gender Inkyrius is and ended up adopting kids because he couldn't figure out why Inkyrius and he were unable to have them! :smallbiggrin: That would be hilarious! :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

[martinkou]

V is a castrated/neutered male. So he's not gay - he's just without it.

[Grothka]

I've always seen it as elves having both sexes (male and female), but at the same time gender (masculine/feminine) has lost any real meaning for many of them. It seems like over time such long lived creatures would quit feeling the need to show off their manliness and what not and would slowly drift toward being somewhere in the center of the gender scale, because that is the most balanced.

[BishFish]

elves are so stubborn and stuck up, what if they just think they're too good for gender?

[Zanaril]

elves are so stubborn and stuck up, what if they just think they're too good for gender?

The real reason they haven't completely overun other species despite having such long lifetimes: they have no idea what gender is or how to identify it, and therefore half of them end up not having children but are never able to figure out why. :smalltongue:

[Outsidelime]

Who is that?

Keeno is (SoD spoiler)

an elven Rogue who was in Eugene's adventuring party when he was originally searching for Xykon, as seen in Start of Darkness. Clearly elven, and probably male, judging from body shape.

~J

[Asis]

I bet Gold against Silver that he ends up being a male elf. Anyone up for some easy money?

[Katana_Geldar]

Here is Keeno (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0491.html) I was too tired last night to find him.

[Berserk Monk]

V is a castrated/neutered male. So he's not gay - he's just without it.

No. He's the man from room five. And I bet you all thought I was done making those jokes.

[Katana_Geldar]

In Orgins and Start of Darkness there are elves with a definite gender, pages 57 and 51 respectively.

[ADZAELL]

ok, then how about the tetra-gendered theory?

Male donor (as per human male)XYYY chromosome configuration
Male receiver XXYY chromosome configuration
Female donor (as per human female)XXXX chromosome configuration
Female receiver XXXY chromosome configuration

Step 1:
Genetic material passed from male donor to male receiver (one chromosome type)
Genetic material passed from female donor to female receiver (one chromosome type)


Step 2: Female and male receiver finalise fertilisation (donated chromosome type plus there own singular contribution)

In this 4 gendered theory, it would mean that:
Standard male would exist and could procreate with humans to make half elves
Standard female would exist and could procreate with humans and make half elves
The "middle genders" would be far more common, and so to allow continuation of the race, these individuals would be the parents, and the less common "male" and "female" elves would be unattached and be free to go crazy with humans and other elves sexually.

plus, with 4 copies of every gene, defective genes would be overidden more easily by the 3 copies of healthy genes, making elven genomes hardier. this could explain there increased lifespans.

[Gullara]

I think Zz'Dtri is a male, due to V using male pronouns to address him. Unlike everyone else, an elf should recognize what each other is.

Or Zz'Dtri is one of those third genders, and the Common language lacks a proper appellation for them.

Actually Zz'Dtri is called "He" because he is a play on Dtri'zz, who is male, from various books by R. A. Salvator

[Bibliomancer]

I am wondering if there's a split between High Elves and ordinary elves, with high elves like V and Kyrie being ambigiously gendered and ordinary elves like Lirian and Keeno being of a definite gender.

Interesting fact: high elves are normal elves, at least in DnD 3.5. There are several other types (including wood elves, which gain +2 strength -2 intelligence -2 charisma, and gray elves, which get +2 intelligence and -2 strength and could be considered 'higher' than high elves, if high implies level of intelligence/culture), but high elves are the default version described in the PHB.

Personally, I think that elves are hermaphroditic and half-elves (or elven druids with the thousand faces class feature) are gendered normally. Alternatively, elves could have hermaphroditic but have "active" and "inactive" physiology states. Either way, cross breeding with humans would be possible.

[Kish]

Actually Zz'Dtri is called "He" because he is a play on Dtri'zz, who is male, from various books by R. A. Salvator
Drizzt. Not Dtri'zz. (Also, there's an E on the end of Salvatore, but that's an easier mistake to understand.)

[Scarlet Knight]

ok, then how about the tetra-gendered theory?

Male donor (as per human male)XYYY chromosome configuration
Male receiver XXYY chromosome configuration
Female donor (as per human female)XXXX chromosome configuration
Female receiver XXXY chromosome configuration


Forget the chromosomes:

Male donor: hetero male
Male receiver: gay male
Female receiver : hetero female
Female donor: transvestite

Now isn't that simpler ? :smallwink:

[derfenrirwolv]

and I mean totally unable

Or totally uncaring. To a gender neutral society it would be like changing your hair color, as in "whats the big deal".

Which may also explain why V was more concerned that "Elan" was kissing someone other than Haley, rather than he has kissing a male CPPD member.

[The Dark Fiddler]

I bet Gold against Silver that he ends up being a male elf. Anyone up for some easy money?

How is at least 50% of failing easy money?

Actually, Rich may never tell us V's gender, so it's possibly a less than 0% chance.

I don't find that quite easy.

[Keris]

How is at least 50% of failing easy money?

Actually, Rich may never tell us V's gender, so it's possibly a less than 0% chance.

I don't find that quite easy.
Asis is suggesting a bet where he wagers gold that Vaarsuvius is revealed as male against a wager of silver that Vaarsuvius does not "end up being a male elf".

This is easy money, as should Vaarsuvius's sex not be revealed he will not have ended up as "being a male elf", and you would win the bet. Additionally, gold is worth far more than silver. Taking D&D's system of 1gp to 10sp, there would need to be a greater than 90.(90)% chance of Vaarsuvius being revealed as male for the wager to average a loss on your part. Taking the real world value of around 1g of gold to 50g of silver, it would need to be in excess of 98%.

[The MunchKING]

Asis is suggesting a bet where he wagers gold that Vaarsuvius is revealed as male against a wager of silver that Vaarsuvius does not "end up being a male elf".

This is easy money, as should Vaarsuvius's sex not be revealed he will not have ended up as "being a male elf", and you would win the bet. Additionally, gold is worth far more than silver. Taking D&D's system of 1gp to 10sp, there would need to be a greater than 90.(90)% chance of Vaarsuvius being revealed as male for the wager to average a loss on your part. Taking the real world value of around 1g of gold to 50g of silver, it would need to be in excess of 98%.

Assuming all else is fair.

He may have some sort of advanced knowledge, or some way to cheat the system (large bribes or threats to a Giant maybe??)

[Yiuel]

My theory is simple : Elves don't care about gender identity.

[ADZAELL]

Forget the chromosomes:

Male donor: hetero male
Male receiver: gay male
Female receiver : hetero female
Female donor: transvestite

Now isn't that simpler ? :smallwink:

not at all.

Why are gay men receivers, and why are female donors transvestites?
Transvestites are men who dress in the opposite genders clothes, but still identify as there biological sex. Transgenders are people who change there gender to what they believe is right for them.
sexuality and gender are 2 seperate things.

[Qubanz]

Elves have males or females, and are NOT herms.

Science works in the OOTS universe (Titanium elementals. (If Rich had never done that, perhaps the herm elves thing might have had SOME minor possibilities, but he pretty much stated with those things and Redcloaks little rant about them that science works.)

It's completely impossible that a biological sister species has wildly different anatomy. Biology does not work that way, period.

Humans and elves are sister species (Half-elves. (Pompey, who also was male.)

So elves have a male/female division.

You can argue against it, just not from a rational standpoint.

And come on, who can actually make a serious case that the V-man, as he's called early in the comic, is female?

V's a guy. (I personally think Inkyrius is too, but that's more speculative.)

[NothingButCake]

It's completely impossible that a biological sister species has wildly different anatomy. Biology does not work that way, period.Biologically, two different species cannot produce fertile offspring like half-elves or half-orcs.

Also, intersexuality occurs much more often in humans than is usually realized.

[ADZAELL]

[QUOTE=Qubanz;7358566]Elves have males or females, and are NOT herms.

So elves have a male/female division.

You can argue against it, just not from a rational standpoint.
QUOTE]

Actually, you can argue quite easily from a rational standpoint that they are hemaphroditic. Hemaphrodites are capaple of sexual reproduction acting as either male or female. to say that it isn't rational is total poppycock. Oh, and Nothing but cake is right. There is no such thing as "Sister species" either you are the same species and able to breed viable offspring that can also breed, or you aren't and you can't.

[HotAndCold]

Wolf-dogs are fertile, right? Last time I checked, canis lupus and canis familiaris were considered separate species.

Except I just double-checked and it looks like dogs have been recategorized as a subspecies of wolf now. Neat. Carry on, then.

[derfenrirwolv]

Wolf-dogs are fertile, right? Last time I checked, canis lupus and canis familiaris were considered separate species.

Except I just double-checked and it looks like dogs have been recategorized as a subspecies of wolf now. Neat. Carry on, then.

Give it a few minutes, they'll change it again :)

Species aren't exactly set in stone. Its biology, any lines you draw are going to be with a very thick brush, if not a roller. Its more like, guidelines than rules...

[hamishspence]

Creatures of different genus can interbreed- but this is exceedingly rare. The Wolphin (half False Killer Whale, half Bottlenose dolphin) is one example of this.

When you look at the False Killer's large size and predatory tendencies toward other cetaceans, the Wolphin could be said to be the real-world, cetacean equivalent, of the half-ogre-

one genus hybridizing with a larger genus that routinely kills its smaller relatives, and producing fertile offspring.

Different species interbreeding is quite common, but the offspring tend to be infertile, though there are exceptions.

[Bibliomancer]

Elves have males or females, and are NOT herms.

Science works in the OOTS universe (Titanium elementals. (If Rich had never done that, perhaps the herm elves thing might have had SOME minor possibilities, but he pretty much stated with those things and Redcloaks little rant about them that science works.)

It's completely impossible that a biological sister species has wildly different anatomy. Biology does not work that way, period.

Humans and elves are sister species (Half-elves. (Pompey, who also was male.)

So elves have a male/female division.

You can argue against it, just not from a rational standpoint.

Just because the elements exist in DnD does not mean that science works. If science worked, magic wouldn't (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0107.html). And vice versa. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0344.html) Also, if science worked, Roy wouldn't possibly be able to hope for minimum falling damage. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0443.html) The fact that Redcloak knew the elements was mainly introduced to the story to poke fun at the DnD use of the term elements (referring to fire, water, air, earth, the classical Greek idea). Unless you can find a term in DnD that will allow Rich to poke fun at, say, species inter-relatedness, I don't see this line of logic holding up. Also, monkey comments aside (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html), elves might not be that closely related to humans at all. Elves are famous for their magic. Ever heard of the polymorph subschool?


And come on, who can actually make a serious case that the V-man, as he's called early in the comic, is female?

V's a guy. (I personally think Inkyrius is too, but that's more speculative.)

Even if that was the original intention of the author, Word of God says that gender is unknown. Thus, these early comments simply reflected Roy's belief that V is male.