Which rules set is simplest to teach people.

[Grifthin]

Here's a question - which rules set for any RPG is the simplest to teach people. be it dnd, world of darkness, gurps, whatever.

[Eagle]

Risus, naturally.

[sambo.]

imho: Paranoia.

very, very simple rules and good roleplay > good die rolls.

[Narazil]

"Core" old World of Darkness is pretty easy to grasp, imo. Diceroll is done against a DC, either with 1 success required or a certain number. Opposed roll are usually just done against the same DC, whoever has the most successes wins. The setting is also a lot more focused on RP than rules (and a lot of rules helps with RP, too).
It's also just not simple, seeing as it has multiple layers of, erh, difficulty. Once you grasp the basics of combat, you can advance into the clanbook alternative rules, other Paths of Blood Magic, being an Elder, ect. ect.

[BobVosh]

imho: Paranoia.

very, very simple rules and good roleplay > good die rolls.

Paranoia ++ for one reason: You don't actually need to explain the rules. If you know the rules you just committed treason.

As for an actual hardset system I would go with WW. Fairly easy to grasp. The only complicated parts are easy enough to skim over and help til it makes sense to em. First edition changeling especially from what I remember. The magic system seemed so fluid and easy.

[Temet Nosce]

Here's a question - which rules set for any RPG is the simplest to teach people. be it dnd, world of darkness, gurps, whatever.

Freeform, though that isn't precisely a rule set.

I suppose after that probably Risus, or Fudge. Nobilis is relatively simple as well, but I wouldn't suggest it as a first game due to the complexity and nuances of the setting (even if it is my favorite).

Paranoia will of course make everyone happy. Because Friend Computer says so. You don't think Friend Computer is wrong do you? Are you a mutant commie traitor? (I love Paranoia but I wouldn't suggest it for a first game - it's basically an exercise in who can be the bigger bastard)

[sambo.]

Paranoia ++ for one reason: You don't actually need to explain the rules. If you know the rules you just committed treason.

hehe, true.

i was actually thinking more of the sheer beauty and simplicity of the Dramatic Tactical Combat system as opposed to the seemingly endless counting of squares and readying of actions etc that is required in most other games.

but, ofc, knowledge of the rules is security clearance Ultraviolet. as a n00b troubleshooter, you are of Red security clearance.

knowledge of Ultraviolet material by someone of Red clearance is treason.

treason is punishable by summary execution.....

<other players> BLAM, BLAM, BLAM!

[NeoVid]

"Core" old World of Darkness is pretty easy to grasp, imo. Diceroll is done against a DC, either with 1 success required or a certain number. Opposed roll are usually just done against the same DC, whoever has the most successes wins. The setting is also a lot more focused on RP than rules (and a lot of rules helps with RP, too).
It's also just not simple, seeing as it has multiple layers of, erh, difficulty. Once you grasp the basics of combat, you can advance into the clanbook alternative rules, other Paths of Blood Magic, being an Elder, ect. ect.

Completely true, with new World of Darkness being even easier, since you're always trying for the same numbers on the dice with no possibility of that ever changing, and you always succeed if you get a single success, with no worries over that number changing either.

Except on a contested roll, but then you're just trying to beat someone else's roll.

[BobVosh]

hehe, true.

i was actually thinking more of the sheer beauty and simplicity of the Dramatic Tactical Combat system as opposed to the seemingly endless counting of squares and readying of actions etc that is required in most other games.

but, ofc, knowledge of the rules is security clearance Ultraviolet. as a n00b troubleshooter, you are of Red security clearance.

knowledge of Ultraviolet material by someone of Red clearance is treason.

treason is punishable by summary execution.....

<other players> BLAM, BLAM, BLAM!

Noob players. Someone should have started shooting before the bolded sentence was finished. Or stabbing. Or starting fires with blastoclean.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Labyrinth Lord. It's a Basic/Expert D&D retro-clone, and is available for free at Goblinoidgames.com.

The rules are simple, there's lots of free and low cost supplements for it, and there's an active community that will answer any questions you might have.

Paranoia is GREAT for an evening of role-playing silliness, as are Kobolds Ate my Baby and Ninja Burger.

[elliott20]

Prime Time Adventures: so easy, a caveman can play it.

[Yukitsu]

For ease of teaching, it's whatever game you happen to have the most proficiency in. When all other things are equal, IMO free form is the easiest it can get.

[sambo.]

Noob players. Someone should have started shooting before the bolded sentence was finished. Or stabbing. Or starting fires with blastoclean.

aha, but "n00b" is a term used in The Old Reckoning.

Knowledge of The Old Reckoning is classified Blue security clearance.

knowledge of Blue security clearance material by someone of Red security clearance is treason.

treason is punishable by summary execution....

BLAM, BLAM, BLAM!

remember: RnD equipment is always perfectly safe and never, ever malfunctions....:smallamused:

[infinitypanda]

remember: RnD equipment is always perfectly safe and never, ever malfunctions....:smallamused:

Why did you phrase it like that? Are you insinuating that RnD equipment occasionally malfunctions?

Edit: ah, truly no game derails threads as quickly and completely as Paranoia. I suggest either it or Labyrinth Lord.

[Zaydos]

I've only played D&D (every edition) and GURPS but I will say Basic D&D was simple enough for a bunch of kids 6, 7, & 9, and an 11 year old DM to figure it out in two, three sittings so it's not too difficult (Expert, and the other boxes added more complexity).

[Satyr]

That depends on the players you want to teach the system. If they are older or have a certain previous knowledge, they will usually favor systems that makes more sense and will have problems to wrap their heads around overtly abstract or just doesn't make sense. A system that is based on a strong inner logic and common sense is usually much easier to learn and to understand than an arbitrary one, which seems to have easier rules. Those are usually the better games as well, and since you probably want the new players to continue to play, choosing not only a fast game, but a really good one is generally a good idea
Another good idea is to choose systems that use a unified approach to rules and use the same mechanics for pretty much every aspect of the game, that makes it easier to transfer the learned stuff quickly from one situation to another.
It is also very helpful to use a system that plays in a familiar setting, so you either pick a setting everyone knows already, or just use the real, modern world as a base (just add mysteries and supernatural legends according to taste).

The best systems for this is the aforementioned WoD, stuff like Call of Cthulluh or, my personal favorite, the Unisystem rules with settings like Witchcraft or All Flesh Must Be Eaten. Brilliant rules, easy to adapt and to learn, flexible and offer another advantage: You can get the basic rules of Witchcraft as a free download (http://www.edenstudios.net/witchcraft/WitchcraftCorebook.zip), which makes the core rules availlable to all players.

Another alternative is Gurps, while not really a simple system, it is also very stringetn and well managed and easy to learn despite the sheer volume of material. It offers another advantage in allowing any new players to create exactly the character they want to play, without compromising. This can be a good idea to avoid frustration with the game before it already started.

[BobVosh]

Knowledge of The Old Reckoning is classified Blue security clearance.

Knowledge of the clearance level for Old Reckoning is above your clearance level. More over carrying Old Reckoning Weapons is obviously treason, which is *ZAP* punishable by summarily execution.

See? Much cleaner to use the red barrel approved by our friend Computer.

R&D has come up with many useful devices that always help make us happier. Such as sticky grenades that stick to walls, people, or anything. Issues of it happening while throwing them are being studied.

[Decoy Lockbox]

How about Minimus? The rules basically fit on the front and back of a standard sheet of paper.

[sonofzeal]

Risus, followed by Paranoia.

[dsmiles]

IMHO, the rules set that is easiest to teach new players is the one that the teacher is most familiar with. I could teach 3.5e DnD to a bunch of FNG's faster than I could teach 4e, or old WoD, or ADnD (my personal favorite, and I still have a bunch of original stuff), or 2e ADnD.

Can I get a *w00t* for Advanced Dungeons and Dragons?

[onthetown]

I was taught D&D 3.0/3.5 and I caught on pretty quickly. Most of that was because the DM was comfortable with the rules, so whatever you're most comfortable with should be able to be taught to your players easily... much more easily than if you're always running to the books for help.

[Chrono22]

Ones that are intuitive- ones which allow the experience of the users, their knowledge and understanding, to guide the process.

[Kurald Galain]

Any rules-light system, definitely not D&D.

Paranoia is actually funnier if you're already familiar with several of the RPG tropes that it parodies.

[Hal]

Rock Paper Scissors.

If you need a little more crunch to your game, you can play Rock Paper Scissors Lizard Spock.

[Foryn Gilnith]

I'm'a echo what people have said already.
1) Whatever system you're most comfortable with
2) Freeform, but that might be cheating
3) Paranoia Wu Shu. My god, how could I forget Wu Shu?

If #1 is a more complex system (D&D lol), it might take a while to teach it, but your experience will pay off in the end.

[Mushroom Ninja]

Wushu is pretty easy to pick up.

[Optimystik]

D&D is extremely easy to teach via a CRPG like Neverwinter Nights. (That's how I learned.)

For those who like to be introduced to tabletop via a video game context, the other rules systems are light in this regard, including (sadly) 4th Ed.

[potatocubed]

Noob players. Someone should have started shooting before the bolded sentence was finished. Or stabbing. Or starting fires with blastoclean.

And this is exactly why Paranoia is a terrible idea for your first game. The rules in the book are easy. The rules that govern how you are supposed to act in character and what you need to do when are opaque, brutal, and unforgiving.

As for simplicity... World of Darkness, old or new, is a pretty simple system. It's also easy to teach people because you can play straight-up everyday types in a world of supernatural horror, but playing as any of the 'special' kinds of thing requires a bit of extra explaining. Of course, you can also stage the transition in-game, thus teaching the player about things at the same time the character learns about them.

D&D... is not simple. On the other hand, it does have a built-in learning curve with levels and suchlike. You're probably better off playing Swords and Wizardry or OSRIC than Pathfinder or 4E, though, if you're trying to learn the game.

Talislanta is really simple to play if you avoid spellcasting. The main drawback to teaching new people is that the setting has very few 'mental handholds': everything is going to be crazy and new until you get your bearings a bit.

[dsmiles]

Oooohhh...Talislanta...I haven't seen that in years...Is there a newer edition out? Last time I even looked at a Talislanta book was waaaayyyy back in about '93 or '94.

[bosssmiley]

Risus
Microlite d20
WFRP
Advanced Fighting Fantasy :smallamused:

[Ormagoden]

No votes for amber?

[Temet Nosce]

No votes for amber?

Same reason as not suggesting Nobilis. Love the game, but I wouldn't suggest it as a first because of the complexity of the setting and general tone.

[Necron]

Hrmm... I'd probably vote for either WoD or 4th edition.

If your group is more focusedon tactical combat then D&D 4th edition wins, and it's much easier for starters to grasp then the earlier editions. AND all the rules are easy to find in the text. Honestly that last part about ease of finding rules is probably the biggest sell for me, some systems are just beyond cluttered when it comes to organizing rules. Anyone who's ever played a miniature game or played an MMO will grasp the basics of 4E fairly quickly.

If your group is more freeform roleplaying focused then WoD wins. There's a lot of good material between oWOD and nWOD, finding the right niche for your group is up to you (tho I will say it's probably easier to understand the oWOD setting as opposed to the nWOD one). There's a lot of good flavor in both settings. And it's easy for new players to wrap their heads around a modern setting.

Paranoia is fun, but I wouldn't bother approaching a greenhorn group with it... It's a fun detour from regular gaming, but I don't think it's a good model on proper roleplaying behavior (given the emphasis of killing other players for treason).

I'd say it's mostly dependant on the DM introducing the new players to whatever system that matters most. Any system that the DM knows fairly well will have more success then new material for everyone.

[The Demented One]

Exalted!

Ha...ha...ha.

[Person_Man]

If your primary goal is interesting combat, I suggest Heroclix or Mageknight. Combat takes 5 minutes to explain, but it has the same strategic depth and texture of 4E D&D. There are even different levels of experience and feats, so you can progress your character. And everything is on a (mostly) balanced point scale. Outside of combat, just do free form roleplaying. You don't need rules to tell you how to talk to people.

If your primary goal is interesting roleplaying and interactions, then I suggest Mage the Ascension. Every player has the power to bend reality to their will in a variety of ways, as long as you don't do so in a way that causes people to disbelieve what they are seeing (paradox). Because of this, combat is almost always resolved with creativity and drama (I make the section of roof above my enemies fall on top of them, which just happens to make the floor beneath them collapse, which makes the pressurized gas water heater beneath them explode) instead of physical combat. But more importantly, social interactions and character development tends to be ridiculously entertaining, because players are bound by the rules of society, but are actively encouraged to find creative ways to circumvent and break them (literally). Although the setting is very deep, players don't actually need to understand any of it. Their first adventure could be discovering their powers and being introduced to the society of mages, technocracy, vampires, werewolves, etc that inhabit the world.

[Kurald Galain]

Although the setting is very deep, players don't actually need to understand any of it. Their first adventure could be discovering their powers and being introduced to the society of mages, technocracy, vampires, werewolves, etc that inhabit the world.

That's a good point. I find this works very well with any WOD game. Sure, the player doesn't know squat about vampire society (or werewolf society, or whatever) but that's ok because neither does his character.

[jmbrown]

Kobolds Ate My Baby. It's humorous and fun, light on rules, and it's the perfect "gateway" to more advanced RPGs.

If you want something a bit more serious, Savage Worlds. It's a 130 something condensed rulebook that can be read in a single night.

[bosssmiley]

Kobolds Ate My Baby. It's humorous and fun, light on rules, and it's the perfect "gateway" to more advanced RPGs.

KAMB is not a game; it is an epiphany. :smallbiggrin:

[jiriku]

I have in the past taught new players how to play AEG's Legend of the Five Rings in 15 minutes flat. Teaching them enough of the basics to play a pregenerated character required only 5 minutes.

[drengnikrafe]

Has anybody suggested Munchkin yet? It consists of "Argue about the rules and cheat whenever possible", and "draw a card, fight it, draw another card". Well, for the most part.

[dsmiles]

KAMB is not a game; it is an epiphany. :smallbiggrin:

KAMB *w00t*

[Person_Man]

That's a good point. I find this works very well with any WOD game. Sure, the player doesn't know squat about vampire society (or werewolf society, or whatever) but that's ok because neither does his character.

Yup. The same is pretty much true for any game. If your players don't know about dinosaurs and lightning trains and warforged and all the other crazy history of your world, just start them in a remote farming village. The roleplaying will be more genuine and interesting, as the sense of wonder and surprise hasn't been pre-smashed by them reading about it in the rulebook.

For the same reason, I tell new D&D players to avoid reading the Monster Manual and other DM material. Fighting a Rust Monster is only a thrilling challenge once. The second time you see one, everyone just runs away while the casters deal with it.

[Satyr]

Yup. The same is pretty much true for any game. If your players don't know about dinosaurs and lightning trains and warforged and all the other crazy history of your world, just start them in a remote farming village.

That depends on the impact of dinosaurs, lightning trains and warforged on everyday life. A setting must be 'learned' just as much as the rules of the game, and it is just frustrating - and stupid - if a character doesn't know the essentials of his society or life because the player doesn't know it yet, either.

[Melamoto]

GURPS Super-Lite:

It literally fits on a piece of paper.

[Swordguy]

I have in the past taught new players how to play AEG's Legend of the Five Rings in 15 minutes flat. Teaching them enough of the basics to play a pregenerated character required only 5 minutes.

That works for 1e or 2e, but 3e is a complicated mess. And it also has the "Paranoia" issue of being a very detailed and unforgiving game world. Hack off the wrong samurai, and your whole party's dead in a round...and the GM is literally and explicitly told he's playing wrong/badly if he doesn't kill the party in such circumstances.

...

Simple rule sets for me would include WEG Star Wars (everybody knows the universe, and the system is pretty light), Tri-stat, AD&D/OD&D, or one of the d20 spinoffs WITHOUT magic (Shadowforce Archer is one of the better ones), LUG version of Star Trek. Incidentally, I just kinda realized how intimidating most of my favorite systems are for a newbie (Rolemaster, Deadlands, Earthdawn, AD&D with optional/house rules, Gamma World, MechWarrior). Yikes.

[Glimbur]

Risus (http://www222.pair.com/sjohn/risus.htm).

Alternately, Wuthering Heights (http://www.unseelie.org/rpg/wh/index.html) is pretty rules light. Character generation can be done in twenty minutes for a group when you have to explain the rules to all of them. There are only three stats, no modifiers, and the hardest part is the roll over/roll under system. For example, to control your anger, roll over your Rage score. To fight in a duel successfully, roll under your Rage score. Despair is a bit trickier to explain. Oldness is simple but rarely comes up.

That said, the problem table could use some work.

[fusilier]

Personally I would suggest GURPS. From the players' perspective it is very easy to understand. Although character creation can be a bit complicated (however, it was sometime before I even made my own character in D&D, usually just let the DM do it, based on my suggestions). Another one is WEG D6 system. I haven't played their new systems, but the old Star Wars was very easy to pick up, and the character sheet was readily understood.

Both GURPS and WEG's Star Wars can be learned very quickly by simply playing the game.

[erikun]

Has anybody suggested Munchkin yet? It consists of "Argue about the rules and cheat whenever possible", and "draw a card, fight it, draw another card". Well, for the most part.
That's more a card game than an RPG. :smalltongue:

I've heard good things about Fudge, although I haven't tried it before. Honestly, there are probably a ton of small, simple RPGs like Faery's Tale (http://greenronin.com/2007/08/now_available_faerys_tale_delu.php) which would be extremely easy to teach, although most people aren't even familiar with them. (And many potential roleplayers may not be interested in the setting.)

For a "popular" RPG system, I'd have to say World of Darkness or Shadowrun. Preferably Shadowrun without/with simplified magic, decking, etc. Yes, it is quite deadly, but it's a easy to get the concept of the system (roll a bunch of dice, roll high) and will probably get more people's attention than a more generic system.

[Friend Computer]

Freeform, though that isn't precisely a rule set.

I suppose after that probably Risus, or Fudge. Nobilis is relatively simple as well, but I wouldn't suggest it as a first game due to the complexity and nuances of the setting (even if it is my favorite).

Paranoia will of course make everyone happy. Because Friend Computer says so. You don't think Friend Computer is wrong do you? Are you a mutant commie traitor? (I love Paranoia but I wouldn't suggest it for a first game - it's basically an exercise in who can be the bigger bastard)
Are you denying new-gamers the joy that is to serve as troubleshooters for Alpha Complex?

More seriously though, it is the easiest. Very old-school in its ethos, even today: roll the dice when the GM says so, and the GM tells you the results.

I love it.

[Yuki Akuma]

No, seriously, Risus. (http://www222.pair.com/sjohn/risus.htm)

It's six pages long, three of which are taken up by advanced rules, and it only has so many pages because it contains examples of every single rule to make it absolutely clear what the author means.

It has three action resolution mechanics: TN number roll (roll your applicable Cliché against a target number), Quick-Contest (two people roll their clichés against each other - highest total wins) and Combat (which is the most complex resolution mechanic but not by much).

It's perfect as an introductory RPG. It has some wonderful introductions - take A Kringle in Time, for instance, the introduction of which includes petty crime, Santa Claus and screaming little girls.


A character sheet looks like this:

Baron von Screamenmeister
Description: The Baron is a tall, gangly man in a white lab coat, with his right eye replaced with a glowing red light. He hands end in wicked, brass claws. He has a large appetite, despite his thin appearance. Secretly helps out the good guys when no one's watching.

Clichés: Mad Scientist Bent On Global Domination (4), Hollywood Cyborg (3), Disgusting Glutton Who Never Gains Any Weight (2), Part-Time Superhero (1).

(I just made that up on the spot. That's how easy it is.)

[Satyr]

I found Risus too abstract and therefore not very well suited for new players because it will not answer to more specific issues or characters. The rules are simple, but they are not complex enough to cope with equally complex topics and plots.
It is a mistke to assume that a new player is not able to deal with normal complexity. Simplicity is a means to an end, not an end in itself.

[Yuki Akuma]

"Will not answer to more specific issues or characters"? I'm not sure what you mean by that.

Why do rules need to be complex to deal with "complex issues and plots"? I'd think that would just be up to the GM and his players, not the rules.

[Kurald Galain]

The rules are simple, but they are not complex enough to cope with equally complex topics and plots.

You don't need complex rules to do a complex plot.

On the contrary: the more complex the rules are, the more likely that some rule interaction will prevent the complex plot from working. To give a simple example: the Bad Guy holds the kidnapped princess hostage and has a knife at her throat, with the standard trope of "back off or I'll kill her". In a simple system, that would be a big threat and would likely work. On the other hand, in a complex system (particularly D&D) players may point out that he can only do 1d4+str damage to her before they take him down, or may point out that they can just cast raise dead the princess.

(I'm not saying that players should do that, or that good players will, or that a good DM would let them, but that the nature of a complex system includes weird corner cases)

[Satyr]

Why do rules need to be complex to deal with "complex issues and plots"? I'd think that would just be up to the GM and his players, not the rules.

Yes and No. A certain complexity of plots require a certain complexity of mechanisms, very similar to language: talking about a complex issue will almost inevitably lead to a complex language to describe the matter at hand. Characters - or at least well-rounded characters - are complex, and greatly profit from extra detail.

In the same way, the system describes the possibilities of what happens, or what can happen in a game, and acts as a framework. It is both an orientation and a limitation of what you as a gaming group can do with it - and leaves the choice what elements you want to use and in which mixture. An overtly abstract system - like Risus, but there are many, many more examples just doesn't offer enough details to do specific stuff ("I want to cut of his right hand, so he has to drop his laser sword") and therefore wouldn't work well in this regard, effectively hindering the players to celebrate their character's possibilities.

[Yuki Akuma]

So you're saying that a game that gives you the freedom to do absolutely anything is bad for creativity and out-of-the-box thinking?

(Risus can do 'I cut off his right hand to make him drop his laser sword'. It happens when you win a round of combat and your opponent loses a die of his Farmboy In Way Over His Head cliché.)

[Kurald Galain]

(Risus can do 'I cut off his right hand to make him drop his laser sword'. It happens when you win a round of combat and your opponent loses a die of his Farmboy In Way Over His Head cliché.)

Yes. On the other hand I'm reasonably sure that 3E and 4E D&D cannot do that (at least not by the rules).

[Yuki Akuma]

I'm relatively sure most Star Wars RPGs don't let you do that, mechanically.

[Foryn Gilnith]

The thing about that scenario is that the part where you cut off the guy's damn hand is more important than the dropping part. For example, in Star Wars, you can only sever an appendage if your enemy is near defeat - because losing a hand is extremely painful.
D&D tries to adhere to a semblance of realism, because cutting a hand off with a sword like that isn't terribly easy. The closest analogue in 3.5 would be Disarming Strike from Tome of Battle.

But whether in rules-light or rules-heavy, the more bizarre effects have to be fluffed into there by the players and GM.