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herrhauptmann
2009-11-18, 02:38 AM
I've been thinking about the swiftblade PrC since I saw it posted here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130085).

So I was wondering about this build, and how viable it would be. I ask because I've never used a gish, or a ToB character before.
Poor build idea spoilered because it was inviable.

Lvl 1-5: Take 4 levels of wizard, then 1 level of Swordsage/crusader/warblade (not sure which will synergize best). This takes me to 5th level, which lets me fulfill the prereqs for Jade Phoenix Mage. So I'm now a 5th level character with CL 4 and 2nd level spells.
Lvl 6-7: Next 2 levels of Jade Phoenix, takes me to 7th level, and CL 5, with 3rd level spells.
Lvl 8: 1 level in Swiftblade. Now 8th level, CL5, 3rd level spells.
Lvl 8-20: 7 more levels in Swiftblade. Granting 5 more caster levels. AND 5 more levels in JPM, giving me 4 more caster levels. CL 14 (seventh level spells)

I'm inclined to say Swordsage or Warblade, mainly because I don't like the randomness of the crusader. Though I'm told with the crusaders maneuver selection, the randomness doesn't matter as much.

I have no idea how my initiator level would work out with all of this either. (8 from JPM and martial class. Not sure how wizard+Swiftblade counts)

Total, wiz4, sage1, JPM 7, swift8.
Or should I adjust swiftblade and JPM so I max out one of them?



**********New idea:**********
1) Crusader 1,
2) wiz 1
3) wiz 2
4) wiz 3
5) wiz 4
6) wiz 5
7) JPM 1
8) Swift 1 (can swap JPM and Swift 1).-- CL 5. IL 5 (2 martial, 6 other)
9) JPM 2
10)JPM 3
11)JPM 4-- CL 8 IL 8 (5 martial, 6 other)
12)Swift 2
13)Swift 3
14)Swift 4
15)Swift 5
16)Swift 6 -- CL 12 IL 10 (5 martial, 11 other)


So that's 16 levels. I could finish off swiftblade. Leaving me Crusader 1, Wiz 5, JPM 4, swift 10. (CL 14. IL 12)
Or do JPM 8, Swift 6. Gives me a higher CL, higher IL, and higher level maneuvers.

Other options: Use sorc instead of wizard. Then go crusader 1, sorc 5, JPM 2, before entering swiftblade. At which point everything else could remain the same.

infinitypanda
2009-11-18, 02:48 AM
Final question, if I had a wondrous item or wand which had the spell haste. Would you say using that item counts as a casting of haste for purposes of Swiftblade?
If not, how about if I crafted the item myself after entering swiftblade (more a flavor than a RAW thing). If so, quickened boots of haste. Activate boots, and still attack:)

No, it specifically states that the castings of haste must come from your character's spell slots.

herrhauptmann
2009-11-18, 03:43 AM
Oh well, it was worth a shot.
Any suggestions on the rest of it?

DragoonWraith
2009-11-18, 03:54 AM
Warblade gets a lot of INT synergy, but if you're only taking one level that doesn't really matter. You get your INT to Reflex saves, which is cool, but not amazing. Warblade has the fewest maneuvers known and the fewest readied, which isn't so hot, though, and their recovery mechanic, though good, wastes turns you could be spending ripping face.

And I'd say definitely not Swordsage. 3/4 BAB, you're not getting Wis to to AC (requires SS 2) or damage (requires SS 4), not that you'd really care anyway, since Wis would be an excellent choice for dump stat. Swordsages get the most maneuvers known and the most readied, but their recovery mechanic is terrible, and since JPM doesn't get "+1 level of existing martial class" but its own progression, you waste a lot of that benefit by only getting 1 level of the better progression.

I'd say Crusader. You can spend a turn recovering maneuvers, but why bother? As they say "two things chosen at random from a list of awesome are still awesome", and you get more maneuvers known and readied than a Warblade. By round #2, you've been granted your third maneuver (matching the Warblade), and by round #3 you've surpassed him by being granted your fourth maneuver. Also, Devoted Spirit will do a lot to reduce your squishiness by healing you, and even the simple Martial Spirit stance will be awesome when you're getting two Standard Actions a round... that can be a lot of attacks to heal you per round.

lord_khaine
2009-11-18, 03:59 AM
JPM doesn't get "+1 level of existing martial class" but its own progression, you waste a lot of that benefit by only getting 1 level of the better progression.


It seems you dont quite get the system behind ToB, there is no such thing as a +1 level of existing martrial class, instead JPM add directly to your martrial adept level when desiding what level maneuvers you can chose.

katans
2009-11-18, 04:28 AM
Manoeuvers are cool, but spells > manoeuvers more often than not. Plus, the swiftblade's 9th level ability is reeeally sexy.

Can't you just fulfill JPM's prereqs by taking Martial Study? This would grant you yet another CL. Something along the line of Wiz 5/JPM6/SB9... goal is to get 9th level spells before Epic, but I can't remember both PrC's casting progression off the top of my head.

Also, go Swiftblade ASAP and finish the build with JPM levels, thus granting higher-level manoeuvers.

Zephyros
2009-11-18, 05:23 AM
You can't fit them both in the same build and get 9th level. I think Swiftblade has problems getting 9th level on his own. JPM looses 2 CL.

DragoonWraith
2009-11-18, 05:27 AM
It seems you dont quite get the system behind ToB, there is no such thing as a +1 level of existing martrial class, instead JPM add directly to your martrial adept level when desiding what level maneuvers you can chose.
It seems you don't understand my post. I'm very well aware of the fact that "+1 level of existing martial class" doesn't exist, and it's one of the best features of Tome of Battle, honestly. That was a flawed paradigm to begin with. I realize that the Jade Phoenix Mage gives you more maneuvers and that its level is added to the level of the class you already have. My point was that the Jade Phoenix Mage gives you the same number of maneuvers, at the same levels, from the same disciplines, no matter what class you enter as. Thus, the Swordsage's main benefit (more maneuvers) is less significant - at first level, a Swordsage only knows one maneuver more than the Crusader, and actually readies one less - as opposed to 20th level, when the Swordsage knows 25 maneuvers to the Crusader's 14, and readies 12 at a time compared to the Crusader's 7. But you don't get those extra maneuvers, known or readied, because you are taking Jade Phoenix Mage and not Swordsage.

lord_khaine
2009-11-18, 07:37 AM
But if you delay taking your level of swordsage to after lv 4, then you can get some quite nice boosts of both defensive and offensive use.

Zephyros
2009-11-18, 07:59 AM
The only real difference in entering JPM with (just one level of) swordsage or crusader is that you can access different maneuvers. JPM offers access to Dessert Wind and Divine ??? schools. If you enter as a SS you get higher DW access etc etc

Mongoose87
2009-11-18, 08:04 AM
The only real difference in entering JPM with (just one level of) swordsage or crusader is that you can access different maneuvers. JPM offers access to Dessert Wind and Divine ??? schools. If you enter as a SS you get higher DW access etc etc

Devoted Spirit is the word you seek.

MichielHagen
2009-11-18, 12:08 PM
Jade Phoenix Mage requires Concentration 9 ranks.

Does that not mean that you need SIX levels before taking JPM?

herrhauptmann
2009-11-18, 10:34 PM
Jade Phoenix Mage requires Concentration 9 ranks.

Does that not mean that you need SIX levels before taking JPM?

I thought that too. But I keep seeing people post builds where that is not the case, so I'm not so sure now. ex: fighter 6, dwarfdefender 1. (as opposed to gaining the 7 bab in ftr/rgr/brb etc, before entering dwarfdefender at 8). Mentioned in a build question I had over a year ago.

DragoonWraith
2009-11-18, 10:55 PM
You definitely cannot enter JPM before 7. I missed that he'd suggested otherwise. You need to have all of the requirements for a PrC on the level before you take the class. Unlike feats, which explicitly state that you do not.

herrhauptmann
2009-11-18, 11:03 PM
Manoeuvers are cool, but spells > manoeuvers more often than not. Plus, the swiftblade's 9th level ability is reeeally sexy.

Can't you just fulfill JPM's prereqs by taking Martial Study? This would grant you yet another CL. Something along the line of Wiz 5/JPM6/SB9... goal is to get 9th level spells before Epic, but I can't remember both PrC's casting progression off the top of my head.

Also, go Swiftblade ASAP and finish the build with JPM levels, thus granting higher-level manoeuvers.

Swiftblade is 6/10 casting.
JPM is 8/10 casting.
So without some crazy shenanigans, I can't get 9th level spells by going wizard and swiftblade 10 (let alone adding JPM into the mix).
But that's okay for me, I want my spells to fill some mundane needs, and boost my own combat abilities. But not being able to cast wish or gate is fine. Seriously, look at the swiftblade handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871410/The_Swiftblade_Handbook), most of the spells listed are 'awesome spells from the wiz/sorc list.' I feel the list makes my character into a mini-batman wizard with neat combat abilities from his class, but don't do much to actually make him a better combatant. Anyway, that's just my opinion.

To your question about using feats to enter JPM without taking a level in crusader, yes it's doable but I need 2 maneuvers (one a strike), and a stance. I'm pretty sure that's 3 feats. Plus swiftblade requires 2 more (dodge mobility). Pretty intensive, even as a human with flaws. Maybe wizard ACF with fighter feats, wherever that's printed.

So my questions about ToB specifically:
Say I'm crusader 1, wizard 4. My initiator level counts as 3 (1 for crusader, and 2 for wizard), for purposes of abilities that run off of IL. Like devoted spirit healing powers, 2d8 +1 per IL or something.
So what about at my first level of JPM? My new IL will be 4, and I gain a new maneuver known? JPM grants desert wind and devoted spirit. So if I choose a devoted spirit maneuver, will I choose as if I was a level 2 crusader (crusader 1 + JPM1). What about with desert wind (a swordsage discipline). Can I only choose a desertwind maneuver as if I was a level 1 swordsage (due to JPM 1)?

Oh yeah, isn't there a feat floating around which counts same as dodge for determining prereqs? Same way that combat reflexes can be replaced with the one that grants a 5ft step in place of AOO?

Douglas
2009-11-18, 11:11 PM
You can choose any maneuver that a) is in a discipline available to the class you get it from, b) you have the prerequisite number of same-discipline maneuvers for, and c) you have sufficient initiator level for in the base class you are adding it to.

For example, as a Crusader 2/Wizard 4 taking your first Jade Phoenix Mage level (I haven't checked whether this actually satisfies the prereqs), you can choose a maneuver from either Desert Wind or Devoted Spirit. Your initiator level is 5 (2 Crusader + 2 Wizard + 1 JPM), so you can pick up to a level 3 maneuver. Even if you take one from Desert Wind, it can still be level 3 so long as you have the prerequisite number of Desert Wind maneuvers. This maneuver is then added to your Crusader maneuvers known, can be chosen as a Crusader readied maneuver, and uses the Crusader grant and recovery mechanic.

DragoonWraith
2009-11-18, 11:27 PM
To your question about using feats to enter JPM without taking a level in crusader, yes it's doable but I need 2 maneuvers (one a strike), and a stance. I'm pretty sure that's 3 feats. Plus swiftblade requires 2 more (dodge mobility). Pretty intensive, even as a human with flaws. Maybe wizard ACF with fighter feats, wherever that's printed.
UA. But it's not worth it, I think, considering that you're already planning on losing 5 or 6 spell levels, one more I don't think is the end of the world.


So my questions about ToB specifically:
Say I'm crusader 1, wizard 4. My initiator level counts as 3 (1 for crusader, and 2 for wizard), for purposes of abilities that run off of IL. Like devoted spirit healing powers, 2d8 +1 per IL or something.
So what about at my first level of JPM? My new IL will be 4, and I gain a new maneuver known? JPM grants desert wind and devoted spirit. So if I choose a devoted spirit maneuver, will I choose as if I was a level 2 crusader (crusader 1 + JPM1). What about with desert wind (a swordsage discipline). Can I only choose a desertwind maneuver as if I was a level 1 swordsage (due to JPM 1)?
No, you just gain Desert Wind maneuvers as Crusader maneuvers - they use the Crusader Withhold/Grant mechanic, they use the Crusader's Initiator Level, etc etc. You choose them with an IL of 4, so you can choose 1st or 2nd level maneuvers, and anything dependent on IL uses 4 as the number. You do not start a separate Swordsage-style progression.


Oh yeah, isn't there a feat floating around which counts same as dodge for determining prereqs? Same way that combat reflexes can be replaced with the one that grants a 5ft step in place of AOO?
There's at least two I can think of - Midnight Dodge, which is useless to you, and Desert Wind Dodge, which is interesting (and definitely better than Dodge), but it would mean being a Swordsage, because you need a Desert Wind maneuver to get Desert Wind Dodge, and waiting until 7th for JPM to get it means getting DWD at 9th and Mobility at 12th, meaning no Swiftblade until 13th - which is awful. And I don't think the feat, good though it is, is worth getting that level as a Swordsage instead of Crusader.

Draz74
2009-11-18, 11:41 PM
There is also Expeditious Dodge from Races of the Wild. Not ideal, but possibly better than generic Dodge. Or you could learn a Desert Wind maneuver via feat.

herrhauptmann
2009-11-19, 12:14 AM
Spells: As suggested by the swiftblade handbook (link above) and edited by Shneekey

1st Level Spells:
Grease (PHB)
Mage Armor (PHB)
Nerverskitter (SC)
Shield (PHB)
Fist of Stone (CArc)

2nd Level Spells:
Mirror Image (PHB)
Wraithstrike (SC)

3rd Level Spells:
Haste (PHB)
Dispel Magic (PHB)

4th Level Spells:

Dimension Door (PHB)
Polymorph (PHB)

5th Level Spells:
Acid Sheath (SC)
Baleful Polymorph(PHB)
Teleport (PHB)

6th Level Spells:
Disintegrate (PHB)
Contingency (PHB)
Greater Dispel Magic (SC)

7th Level Spells:
Energy Absorption (SC)
Force Cage (PHB)
Limited Wish (PHB)
Prismatic Spray (PHB)
Reverse Gravity (PHB)


8th Level Spells:
Mind Blank (PHB)
Polymorph Any Object (PHB)

9th Level Spells:
Time Stop (PHB)
Gate (PHB)
Shapechange (PHB)
Wish (PHB)

And I think I'll be going strongheart halfling. The extra feat of humanity, with some neat racial abilities. Lesser movement won't be a problem since I'm perpetually hasted.

herrhauptmann
2009-11-20, 01:02 AM
Feats:
There's a lot I'd like to get, more than can be taken actually. Some for flavor, others for power or prereqs.
The character concept for this guy is going to be eager and hyper. At his tamest he'll be like Blur from the original transformers movie (the cartoon).
Other racial choices:
Kobold with Dragonwrought,
lesser Tiefling,
Lesser Air Genasi (can they be 'lesser' as well?)
Elan
Prereqs
Dodge (or some version thereof)
Mobility

Others I want
Improved Initiative
Run (or something to increase base speed)
Blade Meditation, tob
Practiced SPellcaster
Arcane Thesis: Haste Carc
Still Spell (can now cast my most important spell while tied up or in armor)
Sudden Still spell CArc
Somatic Weaponry Cmage (either this, still, or sudden still)
Spellcasting Prodigy FRCS
Smiting Spell phb2
Einhander phb2
Acrobatic Strike phb2
Vexing Flanker phb2
Metamagic school focus CMage
Toughening Transmutation Cmage
Blade of Force Cmage
EWP: Chain (thinking of combining with Thicket of Blades and Combat reflexes)
Elusive target Cwar (no point not to, I already got the prereqs)
Deft Opportunist Cadv
Mobile Spellcasting Cadv
Quick Reconnoiter CAdv

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-20, 01:16 AM
Mobility is available from an armor enhancement in MIC, and there are a few dodge-variants that suck slightly less.
Nerveskitter renders ImpInit mostly unnecessary.
Run is a waste(how often do you quad anyways) especially since your base speed is essentially 60.
Arcane Thesis is wasted on Haste(never meta'd and few CL-dependent effects).
Still and Sudden Still are easily rendered unnecessary by Dimension Door.
Somatic Weaponry only matters if you TWF or sword-and-board(taking your hand off and replacing it on a 2-hander is a free action).
Einhander is wasted since you'll never want an empty hand.
Vexing Flanker isn't worth it since you don't have any class features that require flanking.
Metamagic School Focus is again wasted since the majority of your spells do not require metamagic.
EWP: Chain, Thicket of Blades, and Combat Reflexes work best on someone who wants enemies close to them. You're squishy. Let the enemies leave if they want to. You can charge next round anyways.

That leaves the following, that I either don't recognize, or that are at least worth a look(bolded).
Blade Meditation, Spellcasting Prodigy, Smiting Spell, Acrobatic Strike, Toughening Transmutation, Blade of Force, Elusive Target, Deft Opportunist, Mobile Spellcasting, Quick Reconnoiter.

herrhauptmann
2009-11-20, 02:36 AM
I need mobility for prereqs. I've yet to play a game where I was allowed to use an item which fulfilled prereqs for me.
I'm searching for the different dodge versions. There is the one listed above, but I'd swear there were more.
Run and Improved Init were for flavor. So was quick reconnoiter for that matter (think of that kid in elementary school all tweaked out on sugar and can't sit still)
Sudden still, still spell, and arcane thesis were part of a half formed plan to ensure that I can get myself out if I get locked up or something. How are suddenstill and still spell invalidated by Dim Door? (Obviously dim door can get me out of a jail cell so long as I can cast it. ) Once I get swiftblade 10, a lot of my higher slots will be filled with haste for that timestop effect

Why never want an empty hand? I'm obviously not planning to go TWF. So either a 2handed weapon or a 1 handed. If 1handed, it will be a devoted spirit or desert wind weapon. 2 handed will be a chain.

EWP:chain, vexing flanker, thicket of blades etc, I want to be a melee gish. I don't want to just sit back and toss spells. Plus I can still benefit from flanking, even if I don't have sneak attack.
First few levels I'm definitely squishy, especially when I don't have that twilight mithral chain shirt. But once I start on JPM and Swiftblade, I should be about as squishy as the party rogue, and have better saves.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-20, 10:03 AM
I need mobility for prereqs. I've yet to play a game where I was allowed to use an item which fulfilled prereqs for me.
I'm searching for the different dodge versions. There is the one listed above, but I'd swear there were more.
Run and Improved Init were for flavor. So was quick reconnoiter for that matter (think of that kid in elementary school all tweaked out on sugar and can't sit still)
Sudden still, still spell, and arcane thesis were part of a half formed plan to ensure that I can get myself out if I get locked up or something. How are suddenstill and still spell invalidated by Dim Door? (Obviously dim door can get me out of a jail cell so long as I can cast it. ) Once I get swiftblade 10, a lot of my higher slots will be filled with haste for that timestop effect

Why never want an empty hand? I'm obviously not planning to go TWF. So either a 2handed weapon or a 1 handed. If 1handed, it will be a devoted spirit or desert wind weapon. 2 handed will be a chain.

EWP:chain, vexing flanker, thicket of blades etc, I want to be a melee gish. I don't want to just sit back and toss spells. Plus I can still benefit from flanking, even if I don't have sneak attack.
First few levels I'm definitely squishy, especially when I don't have that twilight mithral chain shirt. But once I start on JPM and Swiftblade, I should be about as squishy as the party rogue, and have better saves.Items fulfilling prerequisites is both RAW and RAI, and FAQ ruled with me as well. Your DM may not allow it however, which would suck.
Expeditious Dodge, RotW. Move 40', add 2 to AC. Midnight Dodge, only if you use Incarnum. And Desert Wind Dodge, only if you use ToB.
Dim Door has no somatic components, so you can use it while grappled or tied up.
2-handed weapons deal far more damage than one-handers. 1-handed weapons are basically nerfed in D&D. Go S&B or TWF(both of which suck) long before you go Einhanded.
Flanking is nice, but not worth spending a feat on. That's basically a feat for an additional +2 AB in certain circumstances. Not worth it.
If an opponent wants to leave, though, why not let them? It's not like they can escape your caffeinated bum, so why spend feats forcing them into melee with you if your the striker, not the Tank?

herrhauptmann
2009-11-20, 05:00 PM
Items fulfilling prerequisites is both RAW and RAI, and FAQ ruled with me as well. Your DM may not allow it however, which would suck.
Expeditious Dodge, RotW. Move 40', add 2 to AC. Midnight Dodge, only if you use Incarnum. And Desert Wind Dodge, only if you use ToB.
Dim Door has no somatic components, so you can use it while grappled or tied up.
2-handed weapons deal far more damage than one-handers. 1-handed weapons are basically nerfed in D&D. Go S&B or TWF(both of which suck) long before you go Einhanded.
Flanking is nice, but not worth spending a feat on. That's basically a feat for an additional +2 AB in certain circumstances. Not worth it.
If an opponent wants to leave, though, why not let them? It's not like they can escape your caffeinated bum, so why spend feats forcing them into melee with you if your the striker, not the Tank?

Ahh, it makes more sense now. Awesome and thank you.
Didn't realize that dim door was a verbal only spell. Maybe, possibly take 'sudden silent spell.' So I can work while gagged, or deafened.

And now I've gotta prep for a challenge. :(
I was telling a friend about this build, and he stated his blaster psion could still kill this character. So idiot that I am, I made up a combo on the spot assuming level 16(timestop effect for several rounds rounds, acidfog, solid fog, cloudkill and/or dimensional anchor).

I was planning ot make him burn all his powerpoints negating the damage I dealt to him, so he'd be unable to blast me with his 27d6 overchannel. And acid fog would destroy his equipment. Solidfog so he couldn't run out. Dimensional anchor so he couldn't teleport out.

He would become undead to negate con damage from cloudkill, which would give me another round to exhaust his power points. And it should open up some options for hurting him once he does it. Goodbye cold damage, hello crappy fort saves.
If I remember right, when he played the psion at level 15 he had about 100 hitpoints (DM gave us max). But if he burned all powerpoints, he effectively had like 400 (100 base, plus negate 2 points of damage for every point spent I think). Something ridiculous.