Mace vs the Emperor

[gibbo88]

So, I just finished watching arguably the coolest Jedi get his ass betrayed by Anakin, and I was wondering, was Mace actually winning, or was the Emperor playing him for the whole fight? Seems like massive facial dis-figuration is a pretty harsh one to take for the team.

Just wondering what everyone else's take on this one was?

[Lord of Rapture]

The canon explanation is the Mace really did win, and that the Emperor was relying on Anakin to bail him out.

This gets me to thinking: What if Anakin didn't help him? What if Anakin did nothing to help Palpatine against Mace Windu? What if he simply was paralyzed with indecision, and Mace executed Palpatine? What would happen?

[Closet_Skeleton]

Mace was an incredibly powerful Jedi with a fighting style that was highly effective against Sith, so he could have really been winning. On the other hand Palpatine got exactly what he wanted, so he probably intended for himself to be losing even if he couldn't have won if he had wanted to.

More likely he had planned for both possibilities to result in Anakin turning and was just going with the flow.

[Athaniar]

Wonder if Palpatine had clones or not, like in post-original trilogy expanded universe? He usually has a backup plan or two (or three, or four, or five...).

Also, about his disfigurement, I prefer Wizard's explanation that it was his real look, and he was just using Sith alchemy to make himself look better.

[Mr. Scaly]

In Death Star Vader muses on this actually. He states that even he's not sure, but if Palpatine really did mean to lose his face then that was a Hell of a thing to do.

[Berserk Monk]

So, I just finished watching arguably the coolest Jedi get his ass betrayed by Anakin, and I was wondering, was Mace actually winning, or was the Emperor playing him for the whole fight? Seems like massive facial dis-figuration is a pretty harsh one to take for the team.

Just wondering what everyone else's take on this one was?

Mace wasn't in the original trilogy, so I say the Emperor because at least he was in some good movies.

[Prime32]

Mace wasn't in the original trilogy, so I say the Emperor because at least he was in some good movies.Mace is Samuel L. Jackson though. And he was in Clone Wars (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7A07WNupEXk).

[Berserk Monk]

Mace is Samuel L. Jackson though. And he was in Clone Wars (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7A07WNupEXk).

Exactly! Midway through the fight a giant shark should have just swallowed him whole.

[Mando Knight]

Mace wasn't in the original trilogy, so I say the Emperor because at least he was in some good movies.

Mace Windu was too in good movies. He was just credited as his Earth counterpart, Samuel L. Jackson.

Master Windu obviously had the upper hand before Anakin showed up. However, he was so concentrated on defeating Palpatine that he didn't realize what Anakin was thinking until it was too late. Palpatine planned on that, so whether or not he planned to "lose" before Anakin turned is the real question...

[Cracklord]

He threw the fight.
Everything proceeded according to his plan. Just as foreseen.
The fundamental thing about the Emperor, (In fact, the thing that got him killed) Is he is to arrogant to assume for a second he might be wrong. He would never even question that Anakin might not do as he planned. That's the way he is. To him, it' not even a risk.

Could he have beaten Mace?
Almost definitely. I mean, his fight against Yoda shows he is a helluva lot more spry then he was acting, and at the very least they seemed equally matched.

[golentan]

Mace Windu was winning. He was clearly winning. Heck, the way things were going he just had to keep it at a stalemate: Palpatine was literally killing himself to use the lightning, and had stopped from exhaustion. Windu was going to deliver a killing blow when he was taken down by someone he viewed as an ally.

And that is why Mace Windu is awesome. He was winning and going to kill a character with contractual immortality, and to stop this he needed to be tag teamed while surprised by another character with contractual immortality in the surprise round. And his death scene was ambiguous enough it's possible he survived (he was hit by force lightning and thrown into the air above coruscant, which "must surely have killed him. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NoOneCouldSurviveThat)" Except of course we've seen other characters survive both these, and nobody recovered a body. To paraphrase sluggy freelance: "A popular and powerful character with the ability to cheat death, and an ambiguous death scene from which no body was recovered. Yeah, we'll never hear from HIM again.") Unless Lucas screws him over, I'm 90-95% sure we'll have a book in the EU about him evading the new order and trying to survive in Coruscant's undercity. At some point.

Let's face it. Mace deserves it. Way more than Boba did.

[Mando Knight]

Could he have beaten Mace?
Almost definitely. I mean, his fight against Yoda shows he is a helluva lot more spry then he was acting, and at the very least they seemed equally matched.

Mace Windu was the Jedi Battlemaster, the Jedi Master whose training focused especially in physical combat. Yoda's the Grand Master because he's better with the Force all-round, but Windu's better with fighting.

[Prime32]

Mace Windu was the Jedi Battlemaster, the Jedi Master whose training focused especially in physical combat. Yoda's the Grand Master because he's better with the Force all-round, but Windu's better with fighting.Mace's fighting style also allows him to absorb Dark Side energies or something like that.

[Obrysii]

I always assumed he was holding back against Mace Windu. Look at how he fought Yoda, and consider for a second that he used no Force Telekinesis on Mace.

Additionally, though he was appearing utterly exhausted, as soon as Anakin betrayed Mace, Palpatine shifted forward and struck him with an extraordinarily powerful blast of Force Lightning while screaming, "POWER! UNLIMITED POWER!"

[hamishspence]

In Allegiance, it mentions that the seed crystal from which Marea's lightsaber crystal was grown, was a very rare one which had "only shown up once in the last hundred years"

I think the intent is, that he'd retrieved Mace's lightsaber, broken the crystal, and used a fragment to grow the crystal for her saber.

On whether he was "faking weakness" I'd say he was. However, that doesn't mean he'd have broken through Mace's defense- he just stopped trying with plenty of reserves left.

[Haven]

May I just note that, among the many offenses of the prequel trilogy, the underutilization of Mace Windu is one that seems to get overlooked most often...but that doesn't reduce its egregious (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TVTropesWikiDrinkingGame)ness.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Personally I've read that scene as Palpatine both faking it and legit loosing. Namely Palpatine overestimated his ability to fake loosing against a Jedi of Mace's caliber. So if Anakin hadn't intervened he would have died after letting himself get into such a bad position. Just like how he went down in Episode VI for overestimating Vader's loyalty, while underestimating the Rebel's ability to actually harm his invincible battle station.

[Berserk Monk]

Still, Palpatine kicked Yoda's ass in a later fight scene in episode 3.

[gibbo88]

I seem to remember reading somewhere that Yoda regretted teaching the Jedi the same way for a thousand years while the Sith had been evolving, and the Jedi assumed the Sith would continue to use overt techniques rather then using guile to gain power.

What I'm tryna get at is that Yoda to a greater extent of any Jedi would not have the influence of new teachings, since he would have been a master for a significant amount of time, while Mace would have been learning and developing new tricks. Wasn't his saber style something he had developed himself? Vapaad or something?

[Berserk Monk]

What I'm tryna get at is that Yoda to a greater extent of any Jedi would not have the influence of new teachings, since he would have been a master for a significant amount of time, while Mace would have been learning and developing new tricks. Wasn't his saber style something he had developed himself? Vapaad or something?

Yeah, but he had several hundred years to train, and I'd take that over evolution any day.

[chiasaur11]

Yeah, but he had several hundred years to train, and I'd take that over evolution any day.

Several hundred years to learn and reaffirm the exact techniques the Sith were learning to counter.

Training is excellent, but if you've spent centuries learning the exact wrong thing...

[Soras Teva Gee]

Still, Palpatine kicked Yoda's ass in a later fight scene in episode 3.

So help me I recall the scene ending with both coming out of the fight essentially uninjured and largely going blow for blow until the end. Easily the best fight in the movie. The result can probably can be chocked up to age, Palpatine is arguably at the height of his power while Yoda is two short decades from dying of old age which he probably only stuck around for so he could teach Luke. Yoda retreats because its doubtful he'd win so its Palpatine's victory but not really an ass kicking.

[Berserk Monk]

Several hundred years to learn and reaffirm the exact techniques the Sith were learning to counter.

Training is excellent, but if you've spent centuries learning the exact wrong thing...

Still, all I'm saying is that if Yoda couldn't defeat Palpatine with hundreds of years to train, what good could Mace do as a human with a lifespan of about 80 years?


So help me I recall the scene ending with both coming out of the fight essentially uninjured and largely going blow for blow until the end. Easily the best fight in the movie. The result can probably can be chocked up to age, Palpatine is arguably at the height of his power while Yoda is two short decades from dying of old age which he probably only stuck around for so he could teach Luke. Yoda retreats because its doubtful he'd win so its Palpatine's victory but not really an ass kicking.

Yoda was the highest ranking Jedi master and if he couldn't take down Palpatine, then what good could a lower ranking Jedi like Mace do?

[TheSummoner]

Yoda was the highest ranking Jedi master and if he couldn't take down Palpatine, then what good could a lower ranking Jedi like Mace do?

Good old Rock, nothing ever beats Rock. Puny Scissors can't beat rock. Paper is so pathetic that it loses to Scissors. If Paper can't beat Scissors then what good can it ever hope do against the might of Rock?

[Dienekes]

Mace Windu was winning. He was clearly winning. Heck, the way things were going he just had to keep it at a stalemate: Palpatine was literally killing himself to use the lightning, and had stopped from exhaustion. Windu was going to deliver a killing blow when he was taken down by someone he viewed as an ally.

Notice how after Ani's betrayal Palp clearly shows he was not too exhausted to use lightning anymore. Palp may have been legitimately losing. But even when about to go, he's too cunning by half.

@Berserk
I'm pretty certain in the EU (as well as Ani's comment in Revenge) Mace is considered the best fighter of the jedi.

[Revlid]

Good old Rock, nothing ever beats Rock. Puny Scissors can't beat rock. Paper is so pathetic that it loses to Scissors. If Paper can't beat Scissors then what good can it ever hope do against the might of Rock?

You, sir, have just obtained an internet, free of charge.
You're all vastly underestimating Windu. The guy was better at lightsaber combat than Yoda, had a (personally developed, so Palpatine couldn't have anticipated it) lightsaber style designed to take on Sith, and the ability to deflect Force energy. He was winning, quite likely legitimately.

[TheSummoner]

I would go as far to say that Palpatine had probably planned to throw the fight originally, arrogance and all, but once he actually started fighting Windu, he realized how horribly he had underestimated his opponent. By that point it was no longer a matter of winning or losing... he was fighting to survive. Luckily for him, the other part of his plan, Anakin's intervention went perfectly and he survived the encounter.

So yes... even if Yoda is more powerful than Mace overall (debatable, but it doesnt matter), Mace's strengths make him a better match for an opponent like Palpatine. Palpatine is paper, Yoda is rock, and Mace is scissors.

[hamishspence]

Mace's style is derived from Juyo- a very aggressive style that Dark Jedi tend to favour.

in the RoTS novelization, Mace said that he created it to channel his own darkness- as an answer to his own weakness in the same way that Yoda's acrobatic style compensates for his short reach.

Given that Sith hadn't been seen for nearly a thousand years, the fact that it was exceptionally good vs them, might partly be coincidence- and the fact that it's a Sith-like style. Sith are very good at taking each other out.

Another Jedi who tried to copy Mace's style (Sora Bulq) ended up slipping to the Dark Side.

[Prime32]

Notice how after Ani's betrayal Palp clearly shows he was not too exhausted to use lightning anymore. Palp may have been legitimately losing. But even when about to go, he's too cunning by half.I think this was because the Dark Side's strength is tied to emotion, and Palpatine regained his confidence after Anakin interrupted.

[Berserk Monk]

The result can probably can be chocked up to age, Palpatine is arguably at the height of his power while Yoda is two short decades from dying of old age which he probably only stuck around for so he could teach Luke. Yoda retreats because its doubtful he'd win so its Palpatine's victory but not really an ass kicking.

What do we know about Yoda's race? Is it ever discussed in the expanded universe stuff? Maybe he doesn't get weaker with old age.

[The Glyphstone]

According to Wookiepedia, Yoda's species (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Yoda%27s_species) was never named, but he wasn't the only one of his kind to be a Jedi. Lucas has kept it a big secret for some reason.

[Berserk Monk]

According to Wookiepedia, Yoda's species (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Yoda%27s_species) was never named, but he wasn't the only one of his kind to be a Jedi. Lucas has kept it a big secret for some reason.

'Cause he's the MitD!

[Dienekes]

I think this was because the Dark Side's strength is tied to emotion, and Palpatine regained his confidence after Anakin interrupted.

Then how does exhaustion work into it? Was he too exhausted to be really angry at Windu? Was he really not feeling any strong emotion during the big reveal of all his plans on Ani?

Sorry, I don't think it adds up.

[Soras Teva Gee]

What do we know about Yoda's race? Is it ever discussed in the expanded universe stuff? Maybe he doesn't get weaker with old age.

Certainly ages slowly compared to us but its never defined how much Yoda's age was from his affinity with the Force or natural for his species. Luke thinks both noticing that human Jedi have a way of living longer.

Yoda definitely ages though and that means he gets weaker, because that's precisely what age is. Not necessarily in agility or strength since he's 99% using the Force but certainly in stamina which is why Yoda uses a cane most of the time.

[Berserk Monk]

Certainly ages slowly compared to us but its never defined how much Yoda's age was from his affinity with the Force or natural for his species. Luke thinks both noticing that human Jedi have a way of living longer.

Yoda definitely ages though and that means he gets weaker, because that's precisely what age is. Not necessarily in agility or strength since he's 99% using the Force but certainly in stamina which is why Yoda uses a cane most of the time.

Still, look at him leap around and say he's not a kickass fighter.

[Dervag]

The canon explanation is the Mace really did win, and that the Emperor was relying on Anakin to bail him out.

This gets me to thinking: What if Anakin didn't help him? What if Anakin did nothing to help Palpatine against Mace Windu? What if he simply was paralyzed with indecision, and Mace executed Palpatine? What would happen?Palpatine knew Anakin would help him; he's good at that whole "I have foreseen it" thing.

If it hadn't worked out, Palpatine would be dead and the whole Galactic Empire would be stillborn. Order 66 would not be given, but the Republic would fall into political chaos, because Windu's actions would provoke a constitutional crisis. It's hard to predict how the chips would fall. Obi-Wan would still stop Grievous, and the Separatists would still be on the run, but if the Republic forces started arguing among themselves (and possibly trying to arrest the Jedi), things would get messy.


Could he have beaten Mace?
Almost definitely. I mean, his fight against Yoda shows he is a helluva lot more spry then he was acting, and at the very least they seemed equally matched.Yes, but when it comes to sheer swordsmanship, Mace may well be more dangerous than Yoda. It's hard to say.

[Drascin]

I would go as far to say that Palpatine had probably planned to throw the fight originally, arrogance and all, but once he actually started fighting Windu, he realized how horribly he had underestimated his opponent. By that point it was no longer a matter of winning or losing... he was fighting to survive. Luckily for him, the other part of his plan, Anakin's intervention went perfectly and he survived the encounter.


I've always been of this school of thinking as well. Even in Return of the Jedi, Palpatine has a way of going out like a punk precisely for being too clever for his own good AGAIN. Against Mace, he probably intended to not exert too much and simply defend against this "lesser Jedi" until Anakin arrived and he could act the victim. But it so happened his act ended up was rather more... realistic than he had expected it'd need to be, because the little Jedi was actually an extremely dangerous opponent - and in his confidence, he'd let himself be extremely badly positioned. If his plan hadn't gone perfectly, Palpatine would have been toast. Wrinkled, ugly toast, too.

[Bouregard]

I've always been of this school of thinking as well. Even in Return of the Jedi, Palpatine has a way of going out like a punk precisely for being too clever for his own good AGAIN. Against Mace, he probably intended to not exert too much and simply defend against this "lesser Jedi" until Anakin arrived and he could act the victim. But it so happened his act ended up was rather more... realistic than he had expected it'd need to be, because the little Jedi was actually an extremely dangerous opponent - and in his confidence, he'd let himself be extremely badly positioned. If his plan hadn't gone perfectly, Palpatine would have been toast. Wrinkled, ugly toast, too.

That summs it up for me. However it was a really bad situation for our soon-to-be Emperor, as he couldn't simply toast Mace across the room in the beginning as that would undermine his victim role. I guess the Emperor could realitvly easy kill someone like Mace in a ranged fight (read: Mace wouldn't survive it to run in swordrange in a real fight)

[Kris Strife]

Then how does exhaustion work into it? Was he too exhausted to be really angry at Windu? Was he really not feeling any strong emotion during the big reveal of all his plans on Ani?

Sorry, I don't think it adds up.

Its entirely possible to be exhausted and unable to feel strong emotions. You've heard the term emotional exhaustion right?

[Dienekes]

Its entirely possible to be exhausted and unable to feel strong emotions. You've heard the term emotional exhaustion right?

Of course. However that drain normally doesn't disappear 5 seconds later.

And he sure doesn't look like he's not feeling strong emotions, considering the dialogue. Sorry, it's all too convenient. He's defending himself, losing but putting up a fight. Ani walks in all of a sudden he can't go on, until he sees an opening yells one of the hammiest lines in the entire movie and blasts him with enough force to shoot him out of the building. The entire set up seems like he's playing Ani as a fiddle. Then once Mace is out of the way he gets up like it's no big thing and commits genocide.

Nothing about what he does seems even remotely exhausted or drained except for that brief second it was critical to convert Ani.

[Telonius]

According to Wookiepedia, Yoda's species (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Yoda%27s_species) was never named, but he wasn't the only one of his kind to be a Jedi. Lucas has kept it a big secret for some reason.

According to the same, Palpatine's (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Palpatine) species is also in some amount of doubt.


The general assumption is that these records were destroyed to conceal his identity as a Sith, but there is another, though less credible, possibility: there may never have been a real being named Palpatine born on Naboo; Darth Sidious, whose real identity prior to becoming a Sith would therefore be completely unknown, may actually have created the identity of Palpatine in order to enter the political sphere,[7] and so there would be no records about a fictitious ancestry and family to destroy.

My crackpot theory: they're of the same race. In fact, the Emperor is actually the female of the species. Consider: the Emperor was played by an "unknown actress" in the original cut of Empire Strikes Back. (Clive Revill only provided the voice). And Palpatine certainly has a severe dislike for the little green dude. Some tension there, perhaps? Or merely a great disturbance in my mind? Mwahahaha ....

[hamishspence]

Yaddle is apparently a female of Yoda's species.

Nice concept though.

I lean toward Palps being a bit overconfident- and thus, being caught unawares when Mace used Vaapad to channel his own power back at him.

But- he was not in as much danger as it appeared- his own power, while damaging his face (possible alchemical disguise, according to Wookiepedia), wasn't harming him seriously- and if Anakin hadn't leaped in, he'd have probably hit Mace with a sudden Force push, causing him to miss his strike.

He proves just how good he is at telekinesis against Yoda.

[Mando Knight]

According to the same, Palpatine's (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Palpatine) species is also in some amount of doubt.

Where? It seems to me that Wookieepedia is rather sure that Palpatine is human.

After all, he walks like a human, looks like a human, and cackles like a human...

[golentan]

Where? It seems to me that Wookieepedia is rather sure that Palpatine is human.

After all, he walks like a human, looks like a human, and cackles like a human...

He must be a duck. After all, he shoots lightning, which is like a witch. And witches float, being made of wood, so it makes sense that since ducks also float they can shoot lightning.

[Da'Shain]

I'm of the opinion that Mace wasn't a pushover and may have had Palps beat in the saber skill department ... but seeing what he does later in the fight against Yoda, there's almost no way he was actually at Windu's mercy once he was disarmed. The guy could tear senate pods from their secure housings and toss them around like wiffleballs, yet all he can do when backed into a corner is try to Force Lightning someone carrying a weapon that he knows can at least block it, if not deflect it? I don't buy it. Palps may be a lot of things, overconfident among them, but stupid definitely isn't in the cards. If he'd felt he was actually in danger, he would have tossed himself out the window at the least, and more likely simply torn up his desk and bowled Windu out the window with it.

Of course, I may be thinking too logically. Perhaps his legitimate fear led him to choose the stupid option out of panic. But I really don't buy that, no matter what the official explanation is.

[Mando Knight]

Or perhaps the sheer fear Palpatine was feeling from being dominated by lightsaber combat caused some sort of Force-conducting loop that drained his ability to concentrate and empowered Mace Windu, so he needed to delay Windu until Anakin arrived to turn the tables.

[Talya]

Palpatine knew Anakin would help him; he's good at that whole "I have foreseen it" thing.

If it hadn't worked out, Palpatine would be dead and the whole Galactic Empire would be stillborn. Order 66 would not be given, but the Republic would fall into political chaos, because Windu's actions would provoke a constitutional crisis. It's hard to predict how the chips would fall. Obi-Wan would still stop Grievous, and the Separatists would still be on the run, but if the Republic forces started arguing among themselves (and possibly trying to arrest the Jedi), things would get messy.

Yes, but when it comes to sheer swordsmanship, Mace may well be more dangerous than Yoda. It's hard to say.

This. Windu was superior, one-on-on. He had Palpatine beat, legitimately. However, Palpatine had forseen this, he knew what would happen. He has a longstanding habit of relying on this, tricky business though it is, always in motion is the future. To his credit, this worked right up until he once again counted on Anakin, and got tossed down a reactor shaft for his trouble.

[Mando Knight]

The fact that Solos and Skywalkers seem to have the extraordinary ability to screw destiny doesn't hurt, either...

[Dervag]

Or perhaps the sheer fear Palpatine was feeling from being dominated by lightsaber combat caused some sort of Force-conducting loop that drained his ability to concentrate and empowered Mace Windu, so he needed to delay Windu until Anakin arrived to turn the tables.This is moderately supported by the novelization, which talks about an "open circuit" or "standing wave" formed between the two of them.

[Deadmeat.GW]

I would say Mace did have him beat, don't forget that the whole training Mace has done allows him supposedly to turn a Darkside user's force powers back on himself.

Which means that move object from this close a range might not have worked as easily or fast enough to prevent Mace from killing him with a stroke of his lightsabre.

He anticipated to be able to beat Mace without trouble and (as the GrandMaster of the Plan B implementation that he is) changed tack when he found out that Mace was actually not only dangerous but overpowering him so as to play on Anakin's doubts to get Anakin to save him.

Honestly, a lot of the time his primary plans fall apart but he then comes back with an even better Plan B which Palpatine just thought up in case that his plan A fell apart.
Deathstar 1 plans stolen?
Deathstar 2 plans stolen?
Naboo ploy stopped in a unpredictable fashion by a wildcard Jedi (Quigon was unconventional in the opinion of the other Jedi) and his main apprentice killed?

[Bob_the_Mighty]

This may or may not be on topic, but what was with the two randoms they sent to help Mace? They knew full well they were going after an immensely powerful Sith Lord. So Mace, who was in fact a bad ass himself, was chosen to go. But what about the other two? IIRC they took out their lightsabers and instantly got shanked. So either it was a horrible choice by the Jedi or they were actually bad asses themselves and Palpatine set up the whole helpless victim scenario.

[Cracklord]

This may or may not be on topic, but what was with the two randoms they sent to help Mace? They knew full well they were going after an immensely powerful Sith Lord. So Mace, who was in fact a bad ass himself, was chosen to go. But what about the other two? IIRC they took out their lightsabers and instantly got shanked. So either it was a horrible choice by the Jedi or they were actually bad asses themselves and Palpatine set up the whole helpless victim scenario.

They were all Jedi masters.
Actually, that's part of what convinces me that Palpatine was screwing with them all.


This. Windu was superior, one-on-on. He had Palpatine beat, legitimately. However, Palpatine had forseen this, he knew what would happen. He has a longstanding habit of relying on this, tricky business though it is, always in motion is the future. To his credit, this worked right up until he once again counted on Anakin, and got tossed down a reactor shaft for his trouble.

See, my issue with this is that Mace was trying to win, and Palpatine was not. If he had simply killed him, he wouldn't have gotten Anakin on his side (Well, maybe he would, but lets assume he has to stick with the plan).
It wasn't a fair fight by any means, as only one is allowed to fight properly.

Palpatine kills four Jedi in as many seconds, then slows, apparently due to emotional fatigue, that he recovers from five seconds later. Sorry, don't buy it.

[Zeta Kai]

Mace Windu was winning. He was clearly winning. Heck, the way things were going he just had to keep it at a stalemate: Palpatine was literally killing himself to use the lightning, and had stopped from exhaustion. Windu was going to deliver a killing blow when he was taken down by someone he viewed as an ally.

And that is why Mace Windu is awesome. He was winning and going to kill a character with contractual immortality, and to stop this he needed to be tag teamed while surprised by another character with contractual immortality in the surprise round. And his death scene was ambiguous enough it's possible he survived (he was hit by force lightning and thrown into the air above coruscant, which "must surely have killed him. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NoOneCouldSurviveThat)" Except of course we've seen other characters survive both these, and nobody recovered a body. To paraphrase sluggy freelance: "A popular and powerful character with the ability to cheat death, and an ambiguous death scene from which no body was recovered. Yeah, we'll never hear from HIM again.") Unless Lucas screws him over, I'm 90-95% sure we'll have a book in the EU about him evading the new order and trying to survive in Coruscant's undercity. At some point.

Let's face it. Mace deserves it. Way more than Boba did.

Hell, in the EU, Darth Maul survived (sort of), & he was bisected. Death is cheap, especially in Star Wars.

That being said, I believe that Palpatine was feigning his near-defeat. Mace was doing his level best, but I think that Palpatine was playing him, & probably could have regained the upper hand if he needed to. He was a master manipulator who took over the galaxy & twisted the great Anakin into a wrathful servant. He also curb-stomped Yoda, who I think was a good match for Windu. I'm sure that he was prepared for any scenario, including Anakin doing nothing, or even assisting Windu (if nothing else, he could've just jumped out the window); he's that far ahead of the game.

Windu was awesomesauce, but the Emperor was a masterful liar, with more gambits than Kasparov.

P.S.: Also, that human face was just a mask that Palpatine chose to drop. The Dark Side must've been eating at him for years.

[hamishspence]

The Visionaries comic is less canon than the rest of the EU- so Luke never met a Darth Maul walking around on an artificial lower body.

Maul Vs Vader I'm not so sure about- "There are ways which those who are no more can live again" has been done a few times in the EU.

[taltamir]

The canon explanation is the Mace really did win, and that the Emperor was relying on Anakin to bail him out.

This gets me to thinking: What if Anakin didn't help him? What if Anakin did nothing to help Palpatine against Mace Windu? What if he simply was paralyzed with indecision, and Mace executed Palpatine? What would happen?

the series would end then and there with a victory for the good guys.

[golentan]

the series would end then and there with a victory for the good guys.

I argue that. The good guys are evil too. Think about it: They're fighting a war to prevent self determination though they themselves admit the republic is unwieldy, oligarchical, and not responsive to the needs of the people. They are willing to kill sentients by the millions to do this (even if you don't count the droids, the clones were basically children and were denied any sort of future by their age acceleration). They mind control people for personal gain, cheat at dice, and support a bunch of Royalist hacks like Bail Organa.

Who, I'd like to point out, used his family name recognition to grab personal wealth and power on a galactic scale. The family that rose to power back home on a wave of corruption, violence, and piracy.

The Republic also worked closely with the Hutts, and gave seats to militarized corporations. They failed to have any sort of effective peacekeeping force, leading to mercenary violence throughout the galaxy. Their one form of peacekeeping, in the Jedi, basically kidnapped children and brainwashed them. If they failed to meet the standards of the program, there was no real mechanism for keeping them from wreaking havoc other than death, which led to monsters with force powers fighting against the republic. And ever notice that it's the bright, wise, and powerful ones who fall to the dark side? Windu ran close, Dooku was "The best and brightest," Anakin, some other EU characters...

Maybe because they see what a sham the Jedi are running. And since Lucas refuses to acknowledge Grey morality, seeking to expand your personal power to fight evil always leads to killing sprees for the evulz.

[taltamir]

that is a whole different can of worms.
But yes the jedi are not as idellic as george lucas claims they are. Word of God says they are the good guys. But not all of us share his world view.