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cbdb
2009-11-18, 05:43 PM
Hey folks, I'm putting together a level 13 gestalt character. I'm going for a natury-guerilla type. I'm a big fan of this druid variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#druid). I know it's not as powerful as wildshape, but I find it an interesting, flavourful variant. What I'm trying to decide is what to gestalt it with. Ninja? Psychic warrior? Fighter? Rogue? Just looking for thoughts. Obviously wisdom synergy has a lot of potential.

Glimbur
2009-11-18, 05:45 PM
Monk? (Unarmed) Swordsage? Consider Monk/Fist of the Forest (Comp Champ) for better punching. Deepwarden (Races of Stone) might be interesting, but nontrivial to qualify for.

The concern I would have with Psy War is that many of the powers want to be used in combat. There are also nice buffs, so it's not a bad idea.

cbdb
2009-11-18, 05:47 PM
I considered monk, but if you check the variant I'm using, it gives monk AC and speed, along with some ranger stuff, in exchange for Wildshape. As for swordsage, I don't currently have access to ToB, sadly, as I'm visiting some family out of town.

Dusk Eclipse
2009-11-18, 05:51 PM
Both ninja and Psychic warrior have a great synergy, but if you are going for a guerrilla tactics characters, I sugest ninja

Vangor
2009-11-18, 05:53 PM
I considered monk, but if you check the variant I'm using, it gives monk AC and speed, along with some ranger stuff, in exchange for Wildshape.

The variant is horrible and pointless.

Glimbur
2009-11-18, 05:53 PM
If you've already got Wis to AC, consider picking something to get full BAB. Barbarian would make you even faster, provide full BAB, and rage. The only problem is rage would limit your spellcasting. Fighter is... fighter, and Paladin is problematic in that you would like more Cha and won't match your alignment from Druid. Swashbuckler to get a little better Ref and some useful movement skills isn't terrible.

In core, that leaves Ranger, which has a lot of overlap with Druid.

Which books do you have available?

Toliudar
2009-11-18, 05:54 PM
I'd suggest warblade, for the full BAB and in-combat flashiness. Swordsage, as noted above, would also be great.

cbdb
2009-11-18, 05:54 PM
Actually, for what I'm going for, it works just fine. Wildshape doesn't fit the flavour of what I'm going for.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-18, 05:55 PM
Losing Wildshape for something you can get otherwise is rough, but there are ways to optimize it. Barb is a good option for Rage and Whirling Frenzy. Warblade is also pretty nice.

cbdb
2009-11-18, 05:55 PM
To be honest, I'm mostly working with things I find online, such as the SRD and Crystalkeep. Honestly, fighter wouldn't be a bad match ... it would let me bulk up on charging and riding feats.

Edit: Regarding wildshape, let's just say I don't care for the bookkeeping associated with it. I actually think the variant is a relatively balanced class.

Leewei
2009-11-18, 06:04 PM
I'd take a page from Sarah Palin and go Rogue. This nets you a good Reflex save, Evasion, Sneak Attack and lots of skill points. Post-level 10, Slippery Mind looks nice on a Druid as well.

PinkysBrain
2009-11-18, 06:04 PM
From SRD I'd go Psion/Slayer ... you only get one feat less than with psychic warrior and the same BAB as with PW, and a whole lot more power points.

cbdb
2009-11-18, 06:06 PM
Rogue is a very good idea. I have more or less been trying to decide whether to get more skills, with something like rogue, or more BAB. I could always take the feat variant rogue as well ... hmmm, so many options ...


Edit: Actually, the reason Psychic warrior is more interesting than psion is dues to the wisdom as a manifesting stat.

Human Paragon 3
2009-11-18, 06:08 PM
Why not go with this barbarian variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#barbarian)? You can trade rage for archery and favored enemy, then go with a mounted archery build to team with your animal companion? If you pick a horse as your animal companion you could go horse totem barbarian for boosts to ride and handle animal. The d12 hp and full BAB don't hurt at all.

Or you could go for Scout, getting a lot of skill points and skirmish, plus even more increased movement. Fits the wilderness theme.

cbdb
2009-11-18, 06:09 PM
Interesting Barbarian variant ... although I get favourite enemy from the druid variant. I have been considering a mounted build. Oh, and for story reasons, I'm taking a giant eagle as my animal companion.

Draz74
2009-11-18, 06:11 PM
This is pretty much the only good use for the Ninja class. However, this combo loses some appeal if you're steering away from Wildshape.

Swordsage, of course, does the same things as Ninja, but better.

But since both of those have been suggested and I should contribute something new ...

Cloistered Cleric is of course ridiculously powerful. :smallcool:

Ardent is another option, but frankly, Psychic Warrior gestalts better.

cbdb
2009-11-18, 06:11 PM
Yeah, Cloistered Cleric//Druid is possible the strongest gestalt variant I can think of :) It's a strong contender.

Superglucose
2009-11-18, 06:15 PM
Druid/Wizard.

What? :smalltongue:

Well if you're going to be an infiltrator, I'd cross Druid/Ranger. Ranger gets you the full BAB plus good reflex save, evasion, etc. as well as a handful of spells you can dedicate to healing (since the Ranger list is like the Druid list), 6 skill points/level, and (if I remember correctly) a boost to your favored enemies and animal companions.

Since you have a lot of Ranger class abilities already, some kind of Fighter/Barbarian mix wouldn't be a bad idea. You don't need 13 levels of Fighter, so maybe 12 levels of Barbarian/1 level of fighter?

13 Druid//12 Barbarian/1 Fighter will give you

greater rage 4x/day, imp uncanny dodge, 12d12 HD, 1d10 HD, extra BAB, and a combat feat.

I'd find a different variant of Druid if you didn't want wildshape and cross it with ranger, actually. The SRD Avenger seems to be something you're looking for. If it must be the monk variant, 12 barbarian/1 fighter might serve well, but I think 13 druid/13 ranger might be your best bet.

Salanmander
2009-11-18, 06:20 PM
To be honest, I'm mostly working with things I find online, such as the SRD and Crystalkeep. Honestly, fighter wouldn't be a bad match ... it would let me bulk up on charging and riding feats.

Edit: Regarding wildshape, let's just say I don't care for the bookkeeping associated with it. I actually think the variant is a relatively balanced class.


Have you looked at the aspect of nature variant of wild shape (in UA and the SRD)? It's pretty nifty, gives you some of the versatility of wild shape back, and doesn't have nearly as much book keeping. It's also one of the few places you can get massive untyped bonuses to stats. :smallbiggrin:

An aspect of nature druid//monk seems like it could do better than a druid//fighter with that other variant, because aspect of nature is probably better than fighter class features. You can still take a bit of a fighter dip out of your monk side if you're low on feats.

Snails
2009-11-18, 06:23 PM
Depends how much physical violence you think you will do relative to the amount of spellcasting. You cannot go wrong with BAB.

Ranger is not bad. More skills points, favored enemy, and full BAB. Against a favored enemy, your fighting skills will be quite strong on Ranger class abilities alone.

A Druid/Rogue or Druid/Psiwarrior are solid choices, but they start out of the gate a BAB +9, compared to the Druid/Ranger with BAB +13. With the Ranger abilities, that spells a full attack of +11/+11/+6/+1 (TWF or Rapid Shot).

Of course, Fighter might be even better. Swashbuckler is pretty good too, as you are probably going light on the armor.

cbdb
2009-11-18, 06:31 PM
Actually, that aspect of nature variant looks pretty sweet ... I'll consider it.

Edit: Actually, the Warblade is also looking pretty good, as I've managed to track down ToB. I've heard it described as the 'thinking man's barbarian'. Plus it avoids the no spells in rage bit.

Eldariel
2009-11-18, 06:36 PM
Try Wildshape Ranger/Master of Many Forms.

Salanmander
2009-11-18, 06:37 PM
Actually, that aspect of nature variant looks pretty sweet ... I'll consider it.

Edit: Actually, the Warblade is also looking pretty good, as I've managed to track down ToB. I've heard it described as the 'thinking man's barbarian'. Plus it avoids the no spells in rage bit.


Oooh, you have ToB? Aspect of nature druid//swordsage or monkish druid variant//warblade all the way!

cbdb
2009-11-18, 06:47 PM
Actually Salanmander, right now I'm inclined towards the second option. I'm currently debating the merits of 3 levels of Eternal Blade.

PinkysBrain
2009-11-18, 07:14 PM
Edit: Actually, the reason Psychic warrior is more interesting than psion is dues to the wisdom as a manifesting stat.
So? That's only useful for forcing saves ... and psychic warrior powers won't be forcing a lot of saves. Just get your int up high enough to manifest powers with items and leave the force saving spells to your druid side.

cbdb
2009-11-18, 07:17 PM
Actually, that's a good point, especially if I stick to buffing powers. It looks like I'll have a 14 Int, so I could easily bump that up.

tyckspoon
2009-11-18, 07:35 PM
So? That's only useful for forcing saves ... and psychic warrior powers won't be forcing a lot of saves. Just get your int up high enough to manifest powers with items and leave the force saving spells to your druid side.

It's also useful for gaining bonus power points, which is something Psychic Warriors quite dearly need. Psywars use Intelligence for nothing as regards their manifesting.

PinkysBrain
2009-11-18, 08:06 PM
It's also useful for gaining bonus power points, which is something Psychic Warriors quite dearly need. Psywars use Intelligence for nothing as regards their manifesting.
The int was for the psion alternative (which will just plain have more powerpoints, you need 40+ wisdom to get enough bonus powerpoints for a PW to get close).

tyckspoon
2009-11-18, 08:20 PM
Ah, I'd missed the mention of using Psion up there. I'd still go with Psywar, I think; one of the basic principles of gestalt building is that you generally want one side to be the active participant and the other side to grant passive abilities/use action types the other side isn't utilizing. Psion, as a full caster, is generally best used actively, which competes with the Druid side. PsyWars get a lot of their power from Swift and long-term buffs, which makes it a good compliment to the other side of its gestalt. Sure, you can use Psion in the same fashion, but there's a lot of nice PsyWar powers you might want and you'll have to use feats to get them. Plus PsyWar gets a decent stack of bonus feats, from both the Fighter pool and the generally handy Psionic pool.

Danin
2009-11-18, 09:25 PM
Well most of the viable base class options have been pointed out, if you are allowed to take a prestige class on one side (Never done this gestalt shenanigans before) might I point you at Dread Commando from Heroes of Battle. Fits the guerrilla fighter theme and nature theme like you wouldn't believe, grants some sudden strike, a team initiative bonus, full BAB, decent skills.

They are geared to a highly armored character, but they have an adaptation for lightly armored characters that grant +5% concealment any time you are in natural terrain that stacks with any concealment you get from that terrain. Being in light scrub and having a 45% miss chance is always swell. Also, it allows hide checks.

For a base class, I'll also throw in my vote for some variant of barbarian. That or a ninja, for the shear fun of being a ninja loyal to nature. It's like you're the personal assassin for the great Deku tree...