Much ado about rule abuse. (Questions about magic items)

[Hiest, monkey]

Hi everybody!
I was reading the rules on crafting wondrous items, and on crafting magic items in general. The following questions are about damage oriented items, as well as passive combat items (invisibility, sleep etc.)


(edit).. and they were answered. And I felt silly for not reading more carefully.
This question was answered:
The first question (hereinafter referred to as "1)"): If the party has a caster of an appropriate level to create a copy of any given item that the party finds, couldn't the party simply find a buyer for the original, sell the original item at list price or say, for the sake of argument, two-thirds list price, and use the accumulated funds to craft two identical items?

This cheating only applies if the item has no XP cost. The only downside I see to this plan arises in that it would take a lot of time to craft the copies, time the rest of the party would not want to waste. This logical rift remedies itself, since the only items that this hypothetical party could find a buyer for are (relatively) low level items that are (relatively) cheap: Hence the party can craft a copy in two or three days (a week tops), and still end up with a profit.

The second question (Hereinafter referred to as "2)"): Is there any limitation on wondrous items I skimmed over? As far as I can tell they are superior to any other type of item: You can carry almost infinite amounts of them. They are cheap to craft, requiring no more than a week of downtime for the most powerful ones. They can be designed to have infinite uses of any given spell, unlike the charge system of staffs and wands, and they cost no XP to craft (provided the spell doesn't, which most damage spells don't), and they can be crafted at third level and up, unlike wands and staffs.

The only detriment I see is that to avoid the "unusual space limitation" price tag, you must the amount carried to a very large minimum, i.e. you can have a pair of gloves, a pair of boots a hat/helm/headband etc, a necklace/periapt, pants, a bracelet/bracers/armbands (though those cancel gloves, I guess) and a shirt. Even then, unusual space limitation only multiplies the cost by 1.5, so then you have: goggles, gems that fit into necklaces etc. Craft them such that only your wizard/cleric/druid etc. can use them (a class limitation) and you get to slash another third off the price (RAW just under the base gp cost table in the SRD).

So far: wondrous items are much more utilitarian than other items: they deal the same damage, more times, and they don’t cost XP to craft (in most cases). I want to know if my logic is flawed, because there is no way it isn't. This is just too unbalanced.

The third question (hereinafter known as "3)"): is that my wizard just crafted a wondrous item that I'd like to get approved by the community of this site (I think it is wayyyy unbalanced, but I can't find where in the rules it say that it is). The concept: magical ink that casts a spell when a command word is spoken, he has used this ink to tattoo magical sigils on his body (that way he has spells even he is, say, imprisoned, naked, with no spellbook).

The cost multipliers:
1800 (base gold for a command word item) *2 (spell level)*3(caster level)*2(no space limitation, because I want him to have multiple tattoos that don't interfere with each other)*.7(because he makes it such that the tattoo can only be activated by an elven wizard he reduces the cost by 30%)/3 (it costs one third of an items base price in gp to craft, raw materials etc.) = only 5040gp

(I cheated a little in-game, making two restrictions: a class and an alignment restriction, seeing as the wizard will be the only one using the item, reducing the price by 60%, although I'm pretty sure those two don't stack. This left me with a base price of 2880 gp).

5040 gp is easily attainable for a third level character. (In-game we found a metropolis besieged by vampires and looted the houses of the dead for raw materials, reducing the price significantly, we also use a wand of invisibility that we found as a raw material, since it had the same spell, obviously we didn't add the full raw materials cost of the wand, since converting energy requires significant energy). It seems wrong to me that two characters should get infinite uses of a command word activated invisibility spell (albeit caster level 3) in exchange for the paltry price of their accumulated wealth per level thus far.

My three questions actually boil down to one: is there a rule I missed that ruins any of the logic behind the creation of these items, and what is the point of any magic items beyond wondrous items, at least for a wizard?

If you take the time to answer my questions, first: thank you very much, second: please address the question by number, and copy/paste any rules you cite from the SRD (d20srd.org).
Thanks for your help! (Sorry for the wall of text)

[tyckspoon]

Question 2:

To enchant a wondrous item, you must spend 1/25 of the item’s price in XP and use up raw materials costing half of this price. (text of Craft Wondrous Item feat)

Every magic item takes XP to make. They all have the same costs, too- half the market price in gold, 1/25th in xp. The formulas to determine the market costs differ by item type. There are ways to to pay the XP cost with alternate sources (Book of Vile Darkness/Exalted Deeds offer some XP-replacing rare components, and Artificers get a pool of pseudo-XP for the purposes of crafting as a class feature) but there is no way I know of to not pay for the XP cost at all.

[sofawall]

Selling price is half list price. Crafting price is half list price.

If you make an item then sell it, all you did was waste XP and time.

[PaladinBoy]

Wait, what? Since when do wondrous items not cost XP to craft?

The SRD, under Creating Magic Items (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicitems/creatingmagicitems.htm#tableEstimatingMagicItemGol dPieceValues) states:

Magic supplies for items are always half of the base price in gp and 1/25 of the base price in XP. For many items, the market price equals the base price.

Unless I'm greatly misreading this, that would apply to wondrous items as well. This also states that the materials cost is one-half the base price in gp, not one-third.

[Hiest, monkey]

Ahhh, the wonderful sting of logic.
S that would be... only 605 XP. Also you said that it uses half the cost in materials (not my flawed projection of one-third) sothe item now costs... 7560 gp for the version where the use restrictions don't stack, and... 4320 for the version where they do.

So significantly more, but still worth it. Only 605 XP... that's what, two fights of appropriate challeng rating, right? And even if it slows your leveling, the XP system is auto-correcting (a lower level character gains more XP) so you won't trail by more than, maybe, a level or maybe two, and that's if you find the money to make these items regularly, which is doubtful.

Still seems overpowered.

[Hiest, monkey]

Selling price is half list price. Crafting price is half list price.

If you make an item then sell it, all you did was waste XP and time.

Right. I'll get rid of that question, since I thought crafting was one-third price.
Waaaiiit: buying is full price, but selling is half price. That doesn't make sense: the NPC's crafting magic items can sell items at a higher price than a PC crafting magic items.

So I guess that's all my questions. Thanks! (I really need to learn to read more carefully)

[sofawall]

Ahhh, the wonderful sting of logic.
S that would be... only 605 XP. Also you said that it uses half the cost in materials (not my flawed projection of one-third) sothe item now costs... 7560 gp for the version where the use restrictions don't stack, and... 4320 for the version where they do.

So significantly more, but still worth it. Only 605 XP... that's what, two fights of appropriate challeng rating, right? And even if it slows your leveling, the XP system is auto-correcting (a lower level character gains more XP) so you won't trail by more than, maybe, a level or maybe two, and that's if you find the money to make these items regularly, which is doubtful.

Still seems overpowered.

Want to know why it isn't often used? Because it really really stupid. Try pricing out a continuous use item of True Strike. Yeah.

Also, you are well within your rights as a DM to say 'no' to any custom item, even in a RAW-only discussion. Why? Because they are guidelines, not rules, and say DMs should price them according to existing items first, and use the guidelines as a last resort.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Crafting is actually fairly balanced. It's spending a feat(a rare non-renewable resource), time, and XP for items that are weaker than what you can get for cash. Yes, it's cheaper, but it's a tradeoff, and it's a boost in power for the whole party, so it doesn't leave one player unbalanced.

[tyckspoon]

Still seems overpowered.

It probably is, yes. A lot of stupid things happen when you treat the item-pricing guidelines as inviolate rules, which is why the most important rule of the whole thing can be paraphrased as "ignore all this crap and price it according to how valuable it actually is in game." For your hypothetical item of command-word Invisibility, we already know how much the designers thought that was worth; a Ring of Invisibility costs 20,000. Make that 40,000 for slotless or, more sensibly, 30,000 for adding the Invisibility property to another item (This is much higher than the command-word formula for Invisibility would generate, which indicates they thought Invisibility was more than usually powerful as an item.) And the cost-reducers shouldn't be allowed when players are getting to craft or commission their own items, it's horribly cheesy; generally those are best applied as factors on random treasures or loot taken from enemies, where it then becomes a challenge for the players to figure out how they can best make use of the thing.

You're generally right about the preference for making Wondrous Items over other forms of magic item. In particular, there is no reason to brew a potion over making a wondrous item that does the same thing; they use the same cost formulas and wondrous item versions do not have the annoying restrictions of potions.

[KillianHawkeye]

3)

Many factors must be considered when determining the price of new magic items. The easiest way to come up with a price is to match the new item to an item that is already priced that price as a guide. Otherwise, use the guidelines summarized on Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Price Values.

The table is just an estimation. You're supposed to compare the item to existing items first to see if there's anything relevant.

So for your command activated invisibility tattoo, I'd compare it to a ring of invisibility. The ring is tied to a body slot and costs 20,000 gp. A slotless version would cost double, or 40,000 gp.

So yeah, your version may be a bit overpowered.

EDIT: Ninja'd! :smallannoyed:

[Yukitsu]

Right. I'll get rid of that question, since I thought crafting was one-third price.
Waaaiiit: buying is full price, but selling is half price. That doesn't make sense: the NPC's crafting magic items can sell items at a higher price than a PC crafting magic items.


Because they sit in a dusty old shack for umpteen days whittling an adamantium enchanted spoon making profession: sales person checks to sell the thing at full price, since they sell stuff to make a living. One assumes adventurers make the stuff because they actually want to use it.

[tyckspoon]

Because they sit in a dusty old shack for umpteen days whittling an adamantium enchanted spoon making profession: sales person checks to sell the thing at full price, since they sell stuff to make a living. One assumes adventurers make the stuff because they actually want to use it.

Pretty much. Think of how dealers operate in real-world collectibles markets. They will never buy your (comic books/cards/action figures) from you for full list value. They can't; they make their money by selling those things to other people at that price. Now, that doesn't mean you can't get that price for your stuff. You just have to go and do the work of selling it yourself. Take a month off work and hit up a bunch of tradeshows and conventions. Learn how to work Ebay. Place adds indicating what you have to sell in appropriate publications. You don't have to put up with the dealer's lowball offer- you do it because you want to liquidate the items now, and you don't have the time or the inclination to find the buyers who will pay full value for them. If the PCs want to get full market value for their loot, they're free to set up shop and hope they can attract somebody who wants the stuff that they thought wasn't good enough to keep (and keep in mind that a lot of what gets sold is weird random-generated treasure, like weapons with strange and useless enhancements or scrolls containing a handful of really bad 1st level spells. That's not easy product to move.. you should be thanking that dealer for obediently offering half of list price for your useless junk!)

[Hiest, monkey]

As for selling items at half price, I usually, when I do DM, rule that you haggle for a price for each item with each individual sale, and the minimum value that one can sell an item for with no haggling is just below half list price.

A typical adventuring party usually has a character that can raise that value to just above half, and the maximum it will ever go up, without ranks in the appropriate proffession skill, is to two-thirds list price.

As for the item cost, the restrictions for your own items is cheasy, but it makes it cheap enough to use. In addition: a ring of invisibbility is always active, has a higher caster level, and has no command word.

If the ring is weakened to the power of my tattoo the costs are comperable.

[tyckspoon]

As for the item cost, the restrictions for your own items is cheasy, but it makes it cheap enough to use. In addition: a ring of invisibbility is always active, has a higher caster level, and has no command word.

If the ring is weakened to the power of my tattoo the costs are comperable.


By activating this simple silver ring, the wearer can benefit from invisibility, as the spell.

Faint illusion; CL 3rd; Forge Ring, invisibility; Price 20,000 gp.

Same CL, it's the minimum to cast Invisibility. Needs to be activated, which defaults to a standard action, the same as a command word item. It's only Invisibility, not Greater, so once you break it you have to re-spend that action to turn invisible again. And it says as the spell, so you don't even get a continuous duration- you activate it, it casts Invisibility on you at CL3, you're invisible for 3 minutes. It is in every way the same as your tattoo, except stuck in a ring slot.

[Hiest, monkey]

Hmm. Again, I didn't read the entry properly. 20,000 is really big, though. So to make a ring of invisibility it costs 800XP and 10,000 gold. 70% of that is 7,000, so it would cost about that much to make the ring with a class restriction (so you wouldn't be able to give it to another character in the party).

So my projected cost turned out to be about half as big as it should be.

Once more shows the value of avoiding power gaming. This is a much better and more balanced variant.

[Talakeal]

I strongly suggest you do not allow players to add class / race / alignment restrictions to any old item they make. I would only allow it if the item actually has an in world justification for such a property, like a paladin only holy avenger.
The disadvantage will almost never come up, and the cost discount is huge. As a result the player's will make every item restricted to its intended wielder and everyone will have far more wealth than they otherwise should.
And, if worse comes to worse and someone needs to use someone else's item for whatever rare reason, well, UMD gets around the restriction anyway.

[Foryn Gilnith]

This is not rule abuse. There are no rules to abuse. There are guidelines which most of the time are wrong. If you follow the guidelines, Wondrous Items will be overpowered - but if you follow the guidelines, you're not playing by RAW; because guidelines are not Rules, as written or otherwise.

Why create non-wondrous items:
Arms and Armor aren't wondrous items, but are necessary. Scrolls are gotten for free. Wands and staves actually have rules for creating them, rather than broken guidelines nobody uses. Craft Ring and Craft Rod are useless.

[Sinon]

The other thing to remember about the “discount” for restrictions on items is that it doesn’t automatically apply (and should probably not apply) to items crafted.

Firstly, nothing automatically applies, since these are guidelines, not rules.

But also, restricted items should get less at time of sale because there is going to be a smaller demand.

No matter how many people there are out there willing to buy a ring of invisibility, there are almost certainly fewer who are willing to buy a ring of invisibility that is only usable by chaotic-neutral, green-eyed Halflings named Steve.

Lower demand means lower price.

But, such items should probably cost more at the crafting stage:

From the standpoint of verisimilitude, more complex items should be harder and therefore more expensive to make.

From game balance perspective, an item you can use but your opponents cannot if you should lose it or it is stolen is more powerful, not less; more valuable, not less.

Edit: I keep thinking how much shorter the Lord of the Rings would have been if only Sauron had thought to restrict the usage of the Ring of Power to himself. (And 30% cheaper to have made? Doh!)

[KeresM]

If the PCs want to get full market value for their loot, they're free to set up shop and hope they can attract somebody who wants the stuff that they thought wasn't good enough to keep (and keep in mind that a lot of what gets sold is weird random-generated treasure, like weapons with strange and useless enhancements or scrolls containing a handful of really bad 1st level spells. That's not easy product to move.. you should be thanking that dealer for obediently offering half of list price for your useless junk!)

I've let my PCs sell stuff on consignment and possibly get up to 90% of market price, but the downside is that the item might not get sold right away. Depending on the item, it has between a 1 and 10 percent chance of selling each month. Some items didn't sell through the entire length of the campaign.

Or, they can sell it at 50% market price to a dealer and get the money right away. Entirely up to them.

[root9125]

Waaaiiit: buying is full price, but selling is half price. That doesn't make sense: the NPC's crafting magic items can sell items at a higher price than a PC crafting magic items.)

You are referring to the most commonly seen version of Adam Smith Hates Your Guts (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AdamSmithHatesYourGuts).

[Hiest, monkey]

You did not have to bring that thing (http://www.tvtropes.com) into this discussion.

Uncalled for :smalltongue:

[Hiest, monkey]

I strongly suggest you do not allow players to add class / race / alignment restrictions to any old item they make. I would only allow it if the item actually has an in world justification for such a property, like a paladin only holy avenger.
The disadvantage will almost never come up, and the cost discount is huge. As a result the player's will make every item restricted to its intended wielder and everyone will have far more wealth than they otherwise should.
And, if worse comes to worse and someone needs to use someone else's item for whatever rare reason, well, UMD gets around the restriction anyway.
The character in question just doesn't feel like sharing his ring of invisibility with the party, which is my justification.

edit: Oops, double post.