Why does everyone hate wrestling?

[littlequietguy]

Whenever wrestling is mentioned this conversation takes place.
Person 1: Wrestling is fake!
Person 2: Hahaha.
Person 1: Anyone who watches wrestling must be stupid. Now I feel smug.

Why? Why is it stupid? So what if it's fake. You clearly don't understand the concept of fiction or the what wrestling is.

I asked people more about why they hated it.
Here are the reasons:

It has no plot.

Actually wrestling does have a plot which includes a complex drama between characters.

It has a cheesy plot.

Okay I admit the plot can be sub-par at times but compare it to an action movie. That is not the reason you watch it but you would still be annoyed if it had none at all.

It is marketed as fake.

No it is not. If they wanted it to be realistic but rigged then you wouldn't be aware of it right now. The more I talk to you about this the more I suspect that you have never watched wrestling.

I watched a commercial once.

So I ask you? What is up with wrestling? Why do people hate it for no reason.

[Gamerlord]

People don't care much for pointless fighting and would rather read a book?

[Tirian]

The thing that cheeses me off is people who love wrestling who then take a dump on people who love soap operas. There is no difference, aside from the lack of steroid-induced premature death in soap opera stars.

I'd probably like professional wrestling more if there weren't the wrestling part. It seems to take up half the show, and it's tedious once you know the name's two signature moves. So, for me, it doesn't work as a sporting event or a dramatic event. Following the theater that happens between the matches is fine if that's what you're into, I guess, but it's been a very long time since the writers have pulled me in to one of their dramas.

[warty goblin]

I don't hate it, I simply have a desire to watch it that is very close to zero.

[DraPrime]

I'd just prefer that the fighting be....you know, real. It gives the fighting actual meaning. Some sort of real sense of competition and purpose.

[averagejoe]

The thing that cheeses me off is people who love wrestling who then take a dump on people who love soap operas. There is no difference, aside from the lack of steroid-induced premature death in soap opera stars.

Myep. "Soap opera marketed for men," was the first thing that sprang to mind when I saw the thread title.

Like many others here, I don't hate it, but I have little to no desire to watch it. Back in high school I'd sometimes catch the end of a wrestling program when I was watching what was after it (Voyager, maybe, speaking of things everybody hates. Yeah, I'll go with Voyager. That way no one thinks I'm just too embarrassed to admit I watched wrestling!) Some of the tricks were neat, but too much of it seemed to be guys waving their fists in front of each other's noses, and the acting/stories were, um, horrible.

[BenTheJester]

While I don't like wrestling, mainly because something so fake shouldn't be considered a sport, I admire, and am impressed by the skill levels of the "wrestlers".

These guys are real, incredible acrobats.

[Demons_eye]

I'd just prefer that the fighting be....you know, real. It gives the fighting actual meaning. Some sort of real sense of competition and purpose.

Then what? You like watching UFC (I love it) and have the fight over with in a few blows to 15 or so minutes? I like to watch the story, and real fighting is just that. Real. Watching two people tear each other apart and possibly maim or break bones. Its fun for a while and even never really takes the dive and becomes boring. Real fighting stays at a level and that it. With fake fights you dont know what they are going to do to push the envolpe next. Sure its fake but every one of my friends was talking a for weeks about McMan blowing up in his limo. But when asked who do you think would win/whats going to happen in Chuck's or the Dragons next fight you will probably know the out come before hand and if not that it, your guy lost.

It just brings drama to the fight that makes it ever so more better

[/rant/2cp]

[Ravens_cry]

If I want to watch people pretend to beat each other up in a fictionalized context, I will watch a martial arts movie.

[Setra]

I don't hate it, I simply have a desire to watch it that is very close to zero.
It's about the same here...

I used to watch it a lot when I was younger (8 or so) but as I grew older I felt it didn't really entertain me anymore...

It doesn't help that I developed an inability to watch ANY series unless I had seen every previous episode.

[Berserk Monk]

People don't care much for pointless fighting and would rather read a book?

Or they rather pointlessly waste their time looking at threads on an internet forum rather than live their own life and have the rest of the world move on without them.

I feel as though I should learn something from what I just wrote above, and yet I don't.

[snoopy13a]

Wrestling is a very dangerous job and while it is staged, they do actually hurt each other in the ring.

There's a couple of reasons not to watch wrestling:

1) The storylines often objectify women
2) Many wrestlers end up having problems due to injuries and/or drug abuse

It is a brutal industry. There have been steroid scandals in the past. Wrestlers have died from substance abuse. Owen Hart died during an event due to a cable malfunction and there was that awful Chris Benoit incident.

Quite frankly, it is an ugly, ugly business and I'd rather not support it.

[Berserk Monk]

1) The storylines often objectify women.

MUST RESIST URGE TO MAKE SEXIST, DEMEANING JOKE!!!!

There I did it.

[Erts]

1) The storylines often objectify women
2) Many wrestlers end up having problems due to injuries and/or drug abuse

.

This. And when people pretend that all of it is real, well, it takes it away a bit away.

Also, it makes people stop recognizing "wrestling" wrestling. They think of masked wrestling instead, rather then the actual sport.

And while it certainly does require physical skill, and that is admirable, when you take competition out of it, I see no difference from that and a planned ballet dancing; impressive, but not a sport.

[TheThan]

I liked it back when I was a kid. Now days I find all the wrestlers to be really generic, nobody seems to have the sort of charisma that a lot of the old wrestlers portrayed.

The fake part is that they do not intentionally try to hurt each other, after all it’s a show. These moves are done in a manner that neither wrestler is supposed to get hurt. But they still have to be athletes to do them. Then there are accidents like the Owen Hart incident, and other tragedies like what happened to Chris Benoit. But still I just don’t find it as appealing as I used to.

[Setra]

I see no difference from that and a planned ballet dancing; impressive, but not a sport.
This reminds me of a movie... Game Plan I think

[toasty]

I don't hate it. I just don't enjoy it.

And there are some strange people in South Asia who think its actually real. :smallyuk:

[Decoy Lockbox]

I think people object to the fans more than to the actual event. You know, guys like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QALMQGbGqTI&feature=related).

[thegurullamen]

Generalization aside, it's because the acting is horrible and when it's not, you don't care because of the 98 bad performances that came before it. It's like MADTV in that respect: only so many are willing to sit through the bad and mediocre in order to see something interesting.

Then there are the lackluster physical performances. Or worse, the spiteful "No Sells" where backstage politics means the uber-special-awesome-sawse finishers do jackcrap.

But sometimes it can be hilarious. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyN5sAShqOA) (Watch at 1:03 and 2:07. Even the announcers and Hulk have no idea what to make of it. Just listen to them.)

You can't argue against the fact that that when it's good, it's good. (Well, you can, but again, you aren't likely to come into a thread about wrestling if that's the case.)

Of (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTrjD3vJKnU)course, (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Mk5nIjOXrs)nowadays, (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJlw6t8ZLn8&feature=related)you can (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MkCrOCux318)just check (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlWspLv-aIA&feature=related)YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSXlHN1yWxg) for such clips. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_m1qTfJsFI)

[Yoren]

I only hate it when people try to claim its a real sport or that its not actually fake. If people can accept that its fake and simply a silly form of entertainment than I become ambivalent.

[Emperor Tippy]

For one to hate something implies that said thing is interesting enough for one to have an opinion about it.

I don't hate wrestling, I'm just totally apathetic about it.

[Dervag]

I agree with Tippy. I neither know nor care what a bunch of huge men in strange costumes do for a living. If they choose to pretend to beat each other up and have soap opera style feuds (only with more beatings), that is their lifestyle decision. I wouldn't dream of trying to stop them.

But that doesn't mean I'm interested in watching.

[d12]

Haha. Strange that a thread like this should come up maybe a week after watching Spoony's review of the Warrior comic on TGWTG. I gotta say, I would actually be supportive of wrestling if it produced more hilarious stuff like that, if only to see the TGWTG crew suffer some more. :smallbiggrin:

Semi-serious answer: I don't hate it. I just can't take it seriously. If someone is a fan I'm certainly not going to begrudge them that, but depending on how well I know them, I may ask why. I mean, I do understand that it's sort of a strange hybrid of soap opera meets gladiatorial combat, except with less bloodshed (and I understand the fighting is toned down somewhat as well :smalltongue: *ba-dum tsh*). There's just something about it that's just too over the top weird for me though. Maybe that's its appeal?

Now, I have actually been to a wrestling event. I had a friend in my high school/college days who was into wrestling and wanted to go to an event they were having at the local hockey arena. Their father didn't want them going downtown alone cuz it's kind of a clusterf-thing, especially when any kind of event is going on, what with the random construction and poorly maintained roads and confusing layout in some areas and whatnot. So they talked me into going with them, probably on the understanding that I was only the driver and not responsible for finding parking (I am supremely talented at getting lost, though I had been to the arena a few times previously for concerts). The small bits I remember suggest it was kind of an unusual experience. I will say that they did go to the effort of putting on a show...what kind of show I don't really know, but a show nonetheless. There was a middle-aged married couple sitting nearby who we got to talk to a little.

Yeah, I know. Cool story bro.

[Finn Solomon]

I love wrestling, ever since I was a kid. It's actually gotten more interesting to me now as an adult, when I've read the revealing backstories of intelligent, brilliant men like Mick Foley, Chris Jericho and Bret Hart and fit in what went on behind the scenes while I was taking it all in as a fan for the first time. It's a form of entertainment for me, on par with watching a cartoon or a tv show. Violence? Actually less than the average movie. Terrible acting? Ladies and gentlemen, let me present Jim Belushi and Keanu Reeves. Toilet humour and women objectification? We could do with less of them, but wrestling's toned down quite a bit from the Attitude Era. The guys doing what they do are incredible athletes and better than average storytellers. Real fighting sports like MMA and boxing are the ones that sicken me. You know that in wrestling John Cena doesn't really hate Randy Orton and I can tell my little cousin that, but I can't say the same for one boxer doing his damndest to give his opponent a brain haemorrhage.

[Bhu]

I've never hated wrestling I'm just kinda picky about what kind I actually like.

Womens wrestling form Japan being the current fave:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqfBnlBRZjQ

[bosssmiley]

Wrestling is redneck opera with homoerotic overtones. How is two muscular men hashing out their issues in public before launching into a frenzy of grunting, sweating and grappling while dressed in fabulous! outfits not a form of sublimated gay manservice?

It ain't real wrasslin' though. :smallwink:

[Brother Oni]

Real fighting sports like MMA and boxing are the ones that sicken me. You know that in wrestling John Cena doesn't really hate Randy Orton and I can tell my little cousin that, but I can't say the same for one boxer doing his damndest to give his opponent a brain haemorrhage.

So watching a sport with physical violence is acceptable as long as the two opponents don't intend to injure each other? :smallconfused:

While I appreciate the athleticism of the wrestlers of the WWE, I don't watch it any more since the lack of realism bores me.

[Finn Solomon]

So watching a sport with physical violence is acceptable as long as the two opponents don't intend to injure each other? :smallconfused:

While I appreciate the athleticism of the wrestlers of the WWE, I don't watch it any more since the lack of realism bores me.

A crucial aspect of violence is the intention. There's a difference between two guys performing a stunt and two guys intentionally looking to murder each other. There's little actual violence in wrestling, as the effect is mostly exaggerated. I mean, nobody's going to use an Irish whip or a Stone Cold Stunner in real life. Despite this injuries can still occur if they're performed by untrained viewers and that's why the video warnings appear before every show. To the best of my knowledge, MMA and so on do not screen such warnings beforehand.

Calling it redneck opera is also laughable when one considers the roots wrestling has in England, Canada, Japan and Mexico.

[rakkoon]

I loved wrestling when I was 11, after puberty it couldn't keep my attention anymore. Not a statement about quality, just different interests at different stages in my life. And people like Hulk H and The Ultimate Warrior still give me a warm fuzzy feeling everytime I think about them. A strictly hetero, MALE kind of feeling, ahum, YEAH where's my beer?

[Jahkaivah]

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c226/saxcsa/NotWrestling.png

"This isn't wrestling!

THIS ISN'T WRESTLIIIING!"

I am now realising how wiredly wrestling is spelt and it's freaking me out.

[daggaz]

Whenever wrestling is mentioned this conversation takes place.
Person 1: Wrestling is fake!
Person 2: Hahaha.
Person 1: Anyone who watches wrestling must be stupid. Now I feel smug.

Why? Why is it stupid? So what if it's fake. You clearly don't understand the concept of fiction or the what wrestling is.

.

*facepalms*

You mean that fake wrestling is fake, right? And if its fake wrestling, its not wrestling, but rather a false portrayal of such, something the rest of the world calls "acting."

There is such a thing as real wrestling. And its a world of difference from fake wrestling. Im sure the guys who've gone all the way to the olympics and won gold medals in wrestling just grind their teeth to pieces whenever somebody says "wrestling is fake, but who cares?"

Might want to edit your post, you know, for accuracy. The way its written, its like the whole point/joke of the latest southpark episode just whipped right on by.. Curiously enough, its exactly that kind of inaccuracy that gets a lot of people inflamed over fake wrestling. There is wrestling, and then there is the WWF, or whatever they changed their name to.. which is a bunch of guys on real steroids yelling soap-opera lines at eachother while smashing fake stage-chairs over eachothers heads. Nothing inherently wrong with that (except the blatant steroid abuse), but if you want to talk about it, you should probably not call it wrestling, especially if you do so in a way which completely subverts and invalidates the actual sport.

The other thing that often tics people off is the sad fact that there are so many people out there who are dumb enough to actually believe the latter kind of "wrestling" is real.

[Brother Oni]

A crucial aspect of violence is the intention. There's a difference between two guys performing a stunt and two guys intentionally looking to murder each other.

I think you're over-exaggerating it here. I used to compete at an amateur level in kick boxing and I never got the feeling that we were trying to murder each other.

That said things may well be different at a professional level, but they still restrict techniques and target areas.



There's little actual violence in wrestling, as the effect is mostly exaggerated. I mean, nobody's going to use an Irish whip or a Stone Cold Stunner in real life. Despite this injuries can still occur if they're performed by untrained viewers and that's why the video warnings appear before every show.To the best of my knowledge, MMA and so on do not screen such warnings beforehand.


In wrestling, you're given the impression that the techniques aren't that damaging, even with the exaggerated reaction, since they seem to shrug it off and carry on with the rest of the match.
That's why you need the warning as impressionable people may copy them, expecting their partner to just shrug it off like their heroes on TV.

When a technique is performed in proper competitive sports, there are visible consequences and you can see the injury.

[SurlySeraph]

Add me to the apathetic list. If I want to see real fighting, there's UFC. If I want to see over-the-top stylized fighting, there's martial arts movies and anime. There's nothing I want to see that the WWF does better than any other media does.

[Mr Hair]

There is wrestling, and then there is the WWF, or whatever they changed their name to.. which is a bunch of guys on real steroids yelling soap-opera lines at eachother while smashing fake stage-chairs over eachothers heads.

Your flamebait aside, it's exactly as appropriate and accurate to refer to either professional or amateur wrestling as just "wrestling", as both share the same roots and only really began to separate into distinct disciplines in the early 20th century. Before you make such liberal use of facepalming in the future, you may actually want to know what you're talking about first.

Also, it's not like anyone here (including yourself) has had any problem in understanding which kind of "wrestling" is being talked about, so even if it wasn't wrong your rant would still seem out of place.

Oh, and as an aside:


Im sure the guys who've gone all the way to the olympics and won gold medals in wrestling just grind their teeth to pieces whenever somebody says "wrestling is fake, but who cares?"

I can think of at least one Olympic gold medallist in amateur wrestling who would disagree. :smallwink:

As for me personally, I don't really know. I'm quite a fan of the ol' squared circle, though these days I'm more interested in the older stuff than the new, and I've always seen it as just another kind of performance art, and one that's just as legitimate as theatre and pantomime. In fact, I've often found a marked similarity between wrestling, with it's larger-than-life characters, heroic motifs and climactic battles, and comic books.

[Liffguard]

A crucial aspect of violence is the intention. There's a difference between two guys performing a stunt and two guys intentionally looking to murder each other. There's little actual violence in wrestling, as the effect is mostly exaggerated. I mean, nobody's going to use an Irish whip or a Stone Cold Stunner in real life. Despite this injuries can still occur if they're performed by untrained viewers and that's why the video warnings appear before every show. To the best of my knowledge, MMA and so on do not screen such warnings beforehand.

Calling it redneck opera is also laughable when one considers the roots wrestling has in England, Canada, Japan and Mexico.

You don't understand the mindset of competitive combat athletes. No one is out to murder anyone. No one is really out to hurt anyone. The point is to test yourself against a worthy opponent; an informed, consenting adult. I've competed in various combat sports - BJJ, boxing, MMA - and the level of respect between competitors is generally very high. There is always a risk of injury but the competitors are aware of this risk going in.

[Hunter Noventa]

I'll hate it as long as it takes up precious space on the scifi channel that could be used to show something more, well, scifi. Like Star Trek reruns.

[endoperez]

Your flamebait aside, it's exactly as appropriate and accurate to refer to either professional or amateur wrestling as just "wrestling", as both share the same roots and only really began to separate into distinct disciplines in the early 20th century. Before you make such liberal use of facepalming in the future, you may actually want to know what you're talking about first.

That was my only problem with this thread, and with WWF wrestling, as well, I saw no baiting at all. There's wrestling and there's wrestling, and the WWF wrestling isn't what I expected to find in this thread. There's nothing wrong with it per se, as long as people understand that it's very different from Greco-Roman or other styles of "non-professional" wrestling - and that includes mentioning what kind of wrestling you're talking about.

As far as the actual "everone hates the WWF" discussion... well, I don't know anyone who hates it, but I know lots of people who don't understand it, and who sometimes ridicule it.

[thegurullamen]

I'll hate it as long as it takes up precious space on the scifi channel that could be used to show something more, well, scifi. Like Star Trek reruns.

Or moar Original Movies! Or, since they've decided to move away from the geeky scifi nerd image, maybe a reality show about celebrity dogs. (Yeah, right now it's a stretch, but let's see what happens a year from now.) Still, you're right. ECW has no place on the network, even after its rebranding.

Tangent: someone needs to fire those people. They've got forty years of decent scifi movies and shows to pull from and instead of showing the good stuff (or even the mediocre stuff--you couldn't get the rights to air Voyager reruns?) we get ANI-Mondays@! and wrestling. Oh, and movies that are so horrible people can't even enjoy them MST3K style. Once per month. What a massive waste of a budget that could go to, say, luring decent writers away from hit scifi shows (whose names are NOT Berman or Braga!!!) to write shows that don't treat scifi like kitsch. Or maybe producing a movie that doesn't rely on M-list actors and special effects from 1994 as selling points. /Tangent

So, yeah. I miss the days when Dwayne Johnson was still called The Rock.

[daggaz]

Your flamebait aside, it's exactly as appropriate and accurate to refer to either professional or amateur wrestling as just "wrestling", as both share the same roots and only really began to separate into distinct disciplines in the early 20th century. Before you make such liberal use of facepalming in the future, you may actually want to know what you're talking about first.

Also, it's not like anyone here (including yourself) has had any problem in understanding which kind of "wrestling" is being talked about, so even if it wasn't wrong your rant would still seem out of place.

Oh, and as an aside:



I can think of at least one Olympic gold medallist in amateur wrestling who would disagree. :smallwink:

As for me personally, I don't really know. I'm quite a fan of the ol' squared circle, though these days I'm more interested in the older stuff than the new, and I've always seen it as just another kind of performance art, and one that's just as legitimate as theatre and pantomime. In fact, I've often found a marked similarity between wrestling, with it's larger-than-life characters, heroic motifs and climactic battles, and comic books.

Hahahhaha! ok... no. It wasnt flamebait. Seriously. Just no. It was just my honest response to the OP. Having the same roots does not mean its the same thing. Sorry.

But I admire your logic where you can say that a real, physical sport, and something which is openly admitted to as being FAKE by the OP, are indeed the same exact thing. Wow. Astounding. So lead is gold in your universe? Please enlighten us further... Or not. :smallsigh:

[Vic_Sage]

Main reason is because 8/10 WWE is crap and most people think it and a TNA *Which has actually been decent for a few months straight and things are looking up despite signing Hogan* are the only things out there. Not to be a shill *Okay I'm totally going to be a shill* but there is SO MUCH better wrestling out there than what people know about. Whether it's ROH, Chikara *My personal favorite Wrestling promotion*, CMLL, Dragon Gate USA/Japan, DDT, PWG, and NJPW. WWE is just so ugh right now, especially when it comes to women, coming off a Puro and Indy bender where women are often treated as equals, especially with Joshi *Name for female wrestlers in Japan* wrestlers where they are the focus of a Company every now and then is just ****ing jarring. I'd hate to see how the E would treat Awesome or Aja Kong based on how they look.

[Mr Hair]

@endoperez:- That's a fair point. The two variants are very different indeed, and I can see that a little clarification can only have helped. :smallsmile:


Hahahhaha! ok... no. It wasnt flamebait. Seriously. Just no. It was just my honest response to the OP. Having the same roots does not mean its the same thing. Sorry.

My point was simply that its equally as acceptable to call both Amateur and Pro Wrestling just "wrestling"; not that they're one and the same thing.

As for your potential-baiting, perhaps I misread you. But I see no difference in saying that 'all wrestlers are on steroids', that 'all video games are made for juvenile delinquents' and that 'all manga comics are read by schoolgirls'. It's a statement that is inflammatory, insulting, and just plain wrong.

(I see you've edited your post, so I'm not sure how I far I should continue with this line, but I'll briefly say that a minority of wrestlers have and sadly continue to abuse steroids, but that its simply wrong to say that all or most do so)


But I admire your logic where you can say that a real, physical sport, and something which is openly admitted to as being FAKE by the OP, are indeed the same exact thing. Wow. Astounding. So lead is gold in your universe? Please enlighten us further... Or not. :smallsigh:

An episode of a wrestling show is exactly as fake as, say, a performance of Hamlet. Of course the fights are predetermined, though that's not to say that at the higher levels they don't take a huge amount of skill and dedication to pull of successfully. Last time I checked, most theatre companies don't use real crowns or hire actual royalty either. That doesn't make Shakespeare's writings any less valid a means of entertainment.

That vast majority of wrestling fans are fully aware that wrestling is a scripted form of entertainment, and have been so for a long, long time. (Long enough, in fact, for there to have been legitimate 'shoot' elements still in wrestling bouts when they were last regarded as being, in your words, "real") Heck, the WWE* has been publicly saying this since the eighties.

Sure a handful of people believe otherwise. A handful of people believe that The Shining is a totally accurate depiction of real events, and believe themselves to be similarly powered. That doesn't mean that all films should be derided because they're "fake", and the same applies to wrestling. It's just another form of narrative-based entertainment.


*The biggest current wrestling company, but not by any means the be-all-end-all of wrestling, as a lot of people seem to be erroneously mistaking it as.

@Vic_Sage:- I'm definitely more into ROH and Dragon Gate these days, but I can't wholly tune out an organisation that has Jericho, Christian, CM Punk and HBK in it. It's simply asking too much from one man. :smalltongue:

[Vic_Sage]

@Vic_Sage:- I'm definitely more into ROH and Dragon Gate these days, but I can't wholly tune out an organisation that has Jericho, Christian, CM Punk and HBK in it. It's simply asking too much from one man. :smalltongue:
If HBK would go to Smackdown I'd probably watch it more and completely cut out RAW *Which I've pretty much all ready done*. ECW is still the best show seeing how it cuts out alot of the stuff I can't stand.

[snoopy13a]

(I see you've edited your post, so I'm not sure how I far I should continue with this line, but I'll briefly say that a minority of wrestlers have and sadly continue to abuse steroids, but that its simply wrong to say that all or most do so)

An episode of a wrestling show is exactly as fake as, say, a performance of Hamlet. Of course the fights are predetermined, though that's not to say that at the higher levels they don't take a huge amount of skill and dedication to pull of successfully. Last time I checked, most theatre companies don't use real crowns or hire actual royalty either. That doesn't make Shakespeare's writings any less valid a means of entertainment.

That vast majority of wrestling fans are fully aware that wrestling is a scripted form of entertainment, and have been so for a long, long time. (Long enough, in fact, for there to have been legitimate 'shoot' elements still in wrestling bouts when they were last regarded as being, in your words, "real") Heck, the WWE* has been publicly saying this since the eighties.



I disagree with you and I believe that performance enhancing drug use is widespread among wrestlers. They need great strength to pull off some of their moves and I'd understand wrestlers doing whatever they can to add to their strength.

I agree that wrestling requires great skill and dedication. It isn't an easy craft to master and requires great athletic ability to do well (unless you're Hulk Hogan and can get by on Charisma alone :smalltongue: ). In addition, some of the moves result in pain even if done successfully and others are inheritely dangerous (think those crazy aerial moves). Mistakes can lead to serious injuries.

To be fair, someone could make the same arguments against professional (american) football as I earlier did against wrestling. Both are potentially dangerous and are rumored to have performance enhancing drug problems.

[Vic_Sage]

I disagree with you and I believe that performance enhancing drug use is widespread among wrestlers. They need great strength to pull off some of their moves and I'd understand wrestlers doing whatever they can to add to their strength.
Actually you'd be surprised how small and how looked down upon Enhancement drug use is in Indy, Mexican, European, and Japanese wrestling. And for the most part when the drugs are used it's for cosmetic preferences more so than strength. Though Scott Steiner probably has enough stuff running though his veins to supply the world for the next couple decades......

[Mr Hair]

I disagree with you and I believe that performance enhancing drug use is widespread among wrestlers.

Well, I'd disagree with the idea that a majority of the top wrestlers are abusing steroids, and for whatever it's worth the WWE would agree with my disagreement. (http://fans.wwe.com/alejandromagno/blog/2009/06/10/past_wwe_wellness_policy_violations) It does kinda depend on what period and place of wrestling we're talking about though. Nowadays, I'd say that the increased inner-company discipline and sharper media attention, not to mention a gradual acceptance that guys under six foot six can occasionally main-event, has meant that nowadays a small minority of national wrestlers are outright "juicing".

However, if we go back even a scant ten years, I'd be far more inclined to agree with you.

(And yes, most steroids are for looks. The kinds of exercise you do for strength are often quite a bit different from the exercises you do to look good [almost] naked)

Since we've drifted onto the talent needed to wrestle and compete at the national level, incidentally the main reason I watch wrestling is for the matches, and more specifically the craftsmanship that goes into them. By and large I find the various feuds and storylines vaguely irrelevant, although now and again one comes along that is either interesting enough in its own right or enhances the matches themselves. Watching an expertly-put-together match-up is, well, it’s a whole lot of fun, and it's a whole lot of fun on many levels. It's much the same way how I can appreciate a certain acting performance or piece of writing in ways over and above the immediately superficial.

Which is kinda why I think the accusations of "FAKE" tend to ring hollow. Pro Wrestling is fundamentally a series of morality plays, and ones which (in the very best of matches and storylines) those watching can to some extent become involved and event participate in. (Rock v Hogan at Wrestlemania 18 is as good an example off the top of my head of a crowd becoming inextricably part of a match) The Win/Loss statistics and what-not are ultimately irrelevant. They're a means to an end, and that end is, at it's most basic, the story of good triumphing over evil. (Or very occasionally, of evil triumphing over good)

It's not for everyone, or even most people, but wrestling is as valid an artistic medium as any other.

Even if it does tend to over-rely on the chairshots at times. :smallwink:

[Vic_Sage]

Even if it does tend to over-rely on the chairshots at times. :smallwink:
Speaking of plenty of chair shots..... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTmm_icx8Bc)

[valadil]

I enjoy wrestling quite a bit, though I'll agree that it has a lot of potential to be utter crap. I usually watch it on Hulu so I can fast forward when it gets bad.

I don't buy the "it's fake" argument. Every other show I watch on TV is fake. Does anyone complain that South Park is fake? Of course not.

My theory is that people feel betrayed by the fakeness. Up until the age of 8 it's easy to believe in wrestling, especially if you watched in the Hogan era. But once you find out it's scripted instead of a competitive sport, it's really easy to turn on wrestling and hate it. I guess people never grow out of that.

It's important to realize what wrestling is supposed to be. The fights are like action move fight sequences. Except that they're done in one take. With an audience on all sides. And no camera tricks.

Drama-wise, wrestling is supposed to recreate the drama in a good sports match. One of those back and forth games that ends in overtime and has everyone talking the next day. Except instead of having one or two of those each season, wrestling aims to do that every single match.

[Tirian]

Well, I'd disagree with the idea that a majority of the top wrestlers are abusing steroids, and for whatever it's worth the WWE would agree with my disagreement. (http://fans.wwe.com/alejandromagno/blog/2009/06/10/past_wwe_wellness_policy_violations)

The WWE also has a referee in every match to make sure that nobody is cheating. How is that working out for them? Why should I believe that their voluntarily-imposed drug testing policies are any more relevant?


My theory is that people feel betrayed by the fakeness.

If you read this thread, you'd see dozens of people testifying that they feel betrayed by the boringness, and that they'll suspend disbelief in anime or martial arts movies or whatever as long as they're telling an amusing story.

[Mr Hair]

Why should I believe that their voluntarily-imposed drug testing policies are any more relevant?

Because their drug testing policies are not part of the television shows. (Or, in smarkier terms, they're not in kayfabe) You do know that the WWE is a legitimate, publicly-traded (http://www.nyse.com/about/listed/wwe.html) company, right?

I still don't get the hang-up people seem to be having with the "fakery" of the on-screen product. It's like trying to argue that Martin Sheen must have honestly believed he was the President of the United States, because that was how he was presented on-screen in the West Wing.

@Vic_Sage:- Yeah, that was a pretty amazing moment.

@valadil:- That's a much, much better way of describing it then my verbose attempts. :smallsmile:

It really is like a couple of trained stuntmen sparring in a movie, except that in wrestling the fighting is done in real-time and is, to a certain extent, improvised.

[Tirian]

*shrug* They are much larger than their television show, as you no doubt know. Things happen in their magazines that aren't necessarily televised, for instance, and that doesn't stop it from being "canon". This particular thing was on their blog, and that doesn't make it any less a product of World Wrestling Entertainment, Inc. It's certainly not the same sort of story as that the Masked Millionaire is trying to win the championship, buy out Vince MacMahon, and win the heart of the lovely Miss Rebecca, but it is doing the same job spinning on their product in a way that they hope will make it more appealing to fans and advertisers.

Evidently, Congress is also not taking the press releases on faith, as they are investigating whether they care as much as they claim to since the Talent Wellness Program wasn't awake enough to catch Chris Benoit before he went postal. Now maybe WWE got more serious since then, and maybe I'm being unreasonably skeptical, but they've done more than enough to fuel my doubts so they can deal with the consequences.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I look at it as a nice if over-the-top demonstration of stunts and stagefighting (as opposed to real athletics and real fighting) with some entertainingly bad soap opera thrown on. It helps that its filmed live (usually), so we get to see how they're faking it, which is the entertaining part to me.

I don't watch wrestling as a habit, but I don't hate it either.

[valadil]

If you read this thread, you'd see dozens of people testifying that they feel betrayed by the boringness, and that they'll suspend disbelief in anime or martial arts movies or whatever as long as they're telling an amusing story.

I was only addressing the fakeness in that paragraph. When I tell people I like wrestling the usual response is "didn't anyone ever tell you its fake?" I'm trying to explain why I don't think fake is a fair criticism, since everything else on TV (aside from sports) is fake.

Boring is a fair complaint. I don't care if someone else finds my TV shows boring. I'm probably bored by the stuff they watch too.

[Vic_Sage]

Now maybe WWE got more serious since then, and maybe I'm being unreasonably skeptical, but they've done more than enough to fuel my doubts so they can deal with the consequences.
They have gotten more serious because of that and the string of deaths of wrestlers from the 80's *Where drug use was prevalent like hell due to the life style* and they bust everyone, no matter how high up on the card someone is *Jeff Hardy you ****ing idiot*.

Then again if you really wanna see how messed up wrestling can be this is it. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6iFxyQ3-Zeo)

And what happens when being a piece of garbage bites you in the ass (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBeOQExmI-0)

[Bhu]

The WWE also has a referee in every match to make sure that nobody is cheating. How is that working out for them? Why should I believe that their voluntarily-imposed drug testing policies are any more relevant?


No the ref is also an actor who has an earpiece so he can keep in contact with the guys in the back. His job is to tell them if someone blows a move and injures the other guy so they can make a snap decision on what to do to get them both out of there that doesn't screw the storyline too much. Theres a reason wrestlers do submission holds. It's to rest, and so they can talk to each other because with their hair hanging in each others face they can angle away from the cameras and ask if the other guy is okay because they just fubared a suplex and dropped him on his neck wrong.

[Vic_Sage]

All most as if the bookers know how to push my buttons I see Smackdown for a few minutes, see the Mickie segment, then read this bit of news

Tonight's segment on SmackDown featuring Mickie James was designed to send a message to her that she should put wrestling first. WWE aren't happy that Mickie is going outside of the company for her country music career, and believe she's heading down the same path as the likes of The Rock and Stacy Keibler, who let their outside endeavours overtake their WWE commitments. The segment was also designed to send a message about her weight.

Sad thing is this isn't the first time something like this has been done in the company. Molly Holly had the exact same thing happen and the whole backfired because it caused her to quit. And the same thing happened with Nidia.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

I used to love it as a kid. Then one day my dad told me to my face that it was all fake. :smallfrown:

I don't watch it so much now because of all the drama. I don't care why this dude is angry with the other dude. Just fight already.

I like action, I can get soap-operas on another channel. I know it's rehearsed so to speak but it's still cool to see a dude flip from a ladder and land on another dude's head. Just my opinion.

[Vic_Sage]

I used to love it as a kid. Then one day my dad told me to my face that it was all fake. :smallfrown:

I don't watch it so much now because of all the drama. I don't care why this dude is angry with the other dude. Just fight already.

I like action, I can get soap-operas on another channel. I know it's rehearsed so to speak but it's still cool to see a dude flip from a ladder and land on another dude's head. Just my opinion.
Watch Chikara, you'll feel better. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnTML5dEbBU)

[Talwar]

I enjoyed wrasslin' in the early nineties, and again during the whole "Monday Night Wars/Attitude Era". I was fully aware of the scripted nature of the matches and did indeed view it as a soap opera for guys.

I attended Wrestlemania 18, enjoyed the atmosphere of Hogan/Rock, but otherwise concluded that sitting in the nosebleeds of Skydome was not actually the best way to watch wrestling after all.

My interest gradually waned again. I felt like I was seeing the same storylines over and over; I didn't care for a lot of the characters; I felt there was too much filler in the two hour programs; I felt that the programming was trying to be too many things to too many audiences; I grew tired of the
backstage things influencing the product (the Mickie James stuff cited above being an example).

It sounds like there are other potentially interesting products out there now, but I lack both the time and the means by which to check them out.

[waterpenguin43]

Wrestling is a very dangerous job and while it is staged, they do actually hurt each other in the ring.

There's a couple of reasons not to watch wrestling:

1) The storylines often objectify women
2) Many wrestlers end up having problems due to injuries and/or drug abuse

It is a brutal industry. There have been steroid scandals in the past. Wrestlers have died from substance abuse. Owen Hart died during an event due to a cable malfunction and there was that awful Chris Benoit incident.

Quite frankly, it is an ugly, ugly business and I'd rather not support it.

My opinion equals Control C and Control V. Plus it encourages little kids to attack one another.

[Bhu]

I used to love it as a kid. Then one day my dad told me to my face that it was all fake. :smallfrown:

I don't watch it so much now because of all the drama. I don't care why this dude is angry with the other dude. Just fight already.

I like action, I can get soap-operas on another channel. I know it's rehearsed so to speak but it's still cool to see a dude flip from a ladder and land on another dude's head. Just my opinion.

Fake it may be but some of the people teaching it seem kinda brutal...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQB02OL1u-8&feature=PlayList&p=7AFDC833DB82C80D&index=52

I feel sorry for the one girl :smalleek:

[Vic_Sage]

Wrestling is a very dangerous job and while it is staged, they do actually hurt each other in the ring.

There's a couple of reasons not to watch wrestling:

1) The storylines often objectify women
2) Many wrestlers end up having problems due to injuries and/or drug abuse

It is a brutal industry. There have been steroid scandals in the past. Wrestlers have died from substance abuse. Owen Hart died during an event due to a cable malfunction and there was that awful Chris Benoit incident.

Quite frankly, it is an ugly, ugly business and I'd rather not support it.
Both of those really only relate to the WWE nowadays and No. 2 really only in the 80's. Drug use has gone down MAJORLY in the past decade.

[kutsinta]

Good question, probably because most people are now interested in movies (like eclipse or New Moon), surfing the net, video games, etc.

[Setra]

Good question, probably because most people are now interested in movies (like eclipse or New Moon), surfing the net, video games, etc.
Anyone who was ever interested in Wrestling would probably not be watching a Twilight.. movie.

Maybe 300.

Actually 300 is a lot like wrestling. It has half naked men battling, the plot is rather horrible, and the best parts are when people are beating eachother up.

[valadil]

Actually 300 is a lot like wrestling. It has half naked men battling, the plot is rather horrible, and the best parts are when people are beating eachother up.

The difference for me is that wrestlers are real people, not just CGI. I appreciate that wrestling happens in one live take, with no camera angle or post processing trickery.

[Piedmon_Sama]

To expand on Valadil's point: People who say "it's fake" are missing the point. When someone tells you this (and let's assume for the sake of argument you are a wrestlefan) ask them if the athleticism is fake. When you watch a wrestler dive off the turnbuckle, flip another man over his back, or flip over the ropes, those stunts are real. You couldn't do them safely without training. While the level of performance can vary (sometimes it can be painfully bad), it can be really amazing to watch what some of those guys can do (Rey Mysterio, example).