[Eberron] Advice on How To Turn Jaela Daran Into A Villain

[Leliel]

Well, as you may have read, I have a "Villain Who Wants World Peace" in the idea factory.

As I was thinking about him today, I got the inspiration for Rikath-his name-to persuade the Loli-Pope to join his side. Both are fairly kind leaders of organizations with good goals, but have taken some pretty morally grey actions. For Rikath, it's because he ordered them, for Jaela, she really can't order people around, being half their size.

For thematic reasons, I want to examine the problem of having a child for a ruler-frankly, they're not prepared for the job, and it's stupid to expect them to be. I want to show just how much psychological strain she's been under, so that when Rikath comes along and offers to take some of the responsibility away, she's all too happy to accept.

Plus, when the PCs fight her, that gives me an excuse to bust the Ominous Latin Choir out.

Of course, Jaela is good before her slide into the dark side-given the moral ambiguity I'm trying to aim for, she probably still will be-so I want to show her as a hero when the campaign begins, but also her gradual descent into sympathetic villainy.

So how would you turn Jaela into an antagonist in a realistic, understandable way?

[Leliel]

Hey, I can tell people are interested.

[herrhauptmann]

Make her just a spoiled child who doesn't care about others, so long as her whims are desired. Think of the child king in Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom.
Beyond that, no clue. I don't know enough about this character you're developing.

[Horatio@Bridge]

Why would you want to do that?!?!? You realize that if your players go up against her, they're killing children, right? I think that might be a bit too sympathetic of a sympathetic villain. Also, if they're going to fight her at full power, that means that the Silver Flame itself has been brought into the conspiracy...how does one fool a god-like being into taking villainous action? If Jaela falls to darkness, that means she loses her main source of power...then the players are killing not just a little girl, but a little girl who's a lowly 3rd level cleric.

That said, you might be able to Xanatos Gambit it. If the villain plays his cards right, he could turn Jaela against the party by making her believe that they party are actually evil. Which, given that they're going up against a villain who's master plan is World Peace, might not be that hard. The main trick is that the villain has to convince Jaela that he's on the level and that his Plan can actually work without resorting to anything horrific.

If you really want Jaela to fall, though, you'll need to change her substantially from how she's presented in the campaign setting. Your thesis is that child rulers can't handle the stress of ruling, so demonstrate throughout the campaign Jaela facing the strain of ruling and cracking under it. Include scenes and vignettes where she's forced to make horrible decisions, then has to face the full consequences of them. And have this happen away from the Keep, so that the Silver Flame isn't there to insulate her from the responsibility (since when she's at the Keep, it's the Flame making the decisions, not her). It would only take one traumatic event to cause severe damage, so if you establish it early enough it makes the rest a bit more plausible. If you want to have the players fight her at full power, have her turn to the Shadow in the Flame for the 18 levels of cleric. In the meantime, have her start to be more proactive. Gather followers, purge corruption, depose Krozen, basically work to Make Thrane A Better Place...but be just a bit too ruthless doing it. People would rejoice at first, because they're seeing Jaela be exactly who they expect/want her to be (the pure and innocent Voice of the Flame restoring purity to the church), and then you can introduce more disturbing elements later.

I still think you're a bad person for wanting to do this though. >-(

(Unabashed Jaela Fan, so don't take recriminations too seriously...I'm just upset that you're abusing one of my favorite characters)

[kpenguin]

Jaela receives some precognitive visions from the Silver Flame of doom and apocalypse that will occur when Khovaire erupts into war once again, perhaps making the nations of Khovaire unable to fight off an external threat.

The visions shake her enough that she's willing to do almost anything to prevent them from coming true. In comes your world peace villain dude.

A twist could be that the visions are from the demon trapped within the Flame... or that they're REAL and that she might actually be right.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

You don't need a villain to turn Jaela evil. The Silver Flame has a demon as part of it's makeup, and it controls Jaela. Just have the demon winning the eternal war, and Jaela will fall. Maybe even make Rikath actually an unwitting pawn of the forces of the Silver Flame.

[Coidzor]

The demon has always been winning, it just has occasional lapses where its machinations to appear good actually do some good as opposed to appearing to do good while really setting up for more and greater woe than weal.

Sort of like a variant on the Burning Hate, really...

[Leliel]

Actually, about the Bel Shalor (I think that's his name)...no.

Part of Rikath's ultimate plan involves playing the Lords of Dust own arrogance against them-a fact helped by the fact that he's actually a bit older then some of the mid-ranking members. He's long since wised up to how they operate, and how the Shadow in the Flame works.

To so that, he's pretending to be an ally of the rakashasas until they give him access to one of the exarchs-so he can steal their soul. They'll survive to reincarnate another day-but not before they get used as a catalyst in his plot to activate an ancient lunar base. As to what it contains...well, ever wonder why Sarlona has all those manifest zones? They're fallout. Peace through superior firepower is an axiom this guy lives by.

As for the whole "but Jaela is a child!" debate-the campaign starts a bit later then two years past the last war-she's fourteen. That's better...ish...

[AslanCross]

Remember how the Silver Flame manifestation in the cathedral is Tira Miron, a Couatl, and a demon lord in stasis?

Have the demon subsume the others and possess Jaela. Have the Whispering Flame cult gain her support.


You don't need a villain to turn Jaela evil. The Silver Flame has a demon as part of it's makeup, and it controls Jaela. Just have the demon winning the eternal war, and Jaela will fall. Maybe even make Rikath actually an unwitting pawn of the forces of the Silver Flame.

I thought the manifestation in the Cathedral isn't the Silver Flame, but only a manifestation thereof. The Silver Flame is originally supposed to have entered Eberron when the Couatls sealed off Ashtakala.

[Inyssius Tor]

I thought the manifestation in the Cathedral isn't the Silver Flame, but only a manifestation thereof. The Silver Flame is originally supposed to have entered Eberron when the Couatls sealed off Ashtakala.

Thrane worships the Silver Flame, which is physically present in the Cathedral of the Flame. It is composed of Tira Miron, a Couatl, and a demon lord (but they don't talk about that last part much).

There may be another such entity, but the Church of the Flame doesn't know about it, the Church of the Flame doesn't draw power from it, and the Church of the Flame doesn't worship it.

---


Remember how the Silver Flame manifestation in the cathedral is Tira Miron, a Couatl, and a demon lord in stasis?

Have the demon subsume the others and possess Jaela. Have the Whispering Flame cult gain her support.

He said he wasn't going to do that in the post right above yours.

(Still, coming up with a way for Jaela to use her actual powers for evil with the Silver Flame watching, and with Tira and the Couatl ascendant? That's going to be problematic.)


EDIT: Also, Horatio@Bridge is entirely right in every respect.

[Whammydill]

Have her hit puberty?

[AslanCross]

Thrane worships the Silver Flame, which is physically present in the Cathedral of the Flame. It is composed of Tira Miron, a Couatl, and a demon lord (but they don't talk about that last part much).

There may be another such entity, but the Church of the Flame doesn't know about it, the Church of the Flame doesn't draw power from it, and the Church of the Flame doesn't worship it.

Faiths of Eberron says that the holiest day for the Church is Silvertide, which celebrates the sacrifice of the Couatls and the entry of the Silver Flame into Eberron. They celebrate the ascension of Tira Miron on a separate day. Earlier in the chapter it mentions that the Silver Flame did exist in Eberron for millennia, but it did not speak to mortals until Tira Miron's sacrifice.

---




He said he wasn't going to do that in the post right above yours.

(Still, coming up with a way for Jaela to use her actual powers for evil with the Silver Flame watching, and with Tira and the Couatl ascendant? That's going to be problematic.)


EDIT: Also, Horatio@Bridge is entirely right in every respect.

I totally missed that post. I should read more. It's the only way I could think of. It's really hard to think of Jaela as turning evil. Unless she suddenly decides Instrumentality (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AssimilationPlot?from=Main.Instrumentality) is the way to fulfill the Silver Flame's mission.

[Leliel]

Well, I said she was going to be a villain, not that she's going to turn evil.

A little more morally ambiguous, but not more so than Mr. Good-Aligned Tarkanan.

It's compounded by the fact that Rikath isn't a cruel-or even that much of a mean-person. He's bitter and angry, certainly, but that truly is a result of nurture rather than nature-he was raised from childhood to fight in a hopeless war against what was essentially a living weapon. Violence and war are the only political tools he understands.

The entire reason for his actions are that he's tired of the constant cycle of violence that characterizes Eberron. Of course, the tragedy is that he's a product of that cycle, and even if he succeeds, he's going to have to die to make sure the new peace lives for more than a couple decades.

In Jaela, he sees the potential for a descendant of his culture to live in a better world then they did.

[Leliel]

Actually...Yes, I did say "turn Jaela evil".

Er, editing it to say "into an antagonist".

[Horatio@Bridge]

I hope you don't interpret my initial overreaction as a reason not to do this. I might not like the idea, but I did give some suggestions on how you might go about accomplishing it.

One of the other things you're going to run into is that Jaela has another established theme, which is that faith overcomes weakness. Yes, Jaela is a supremely inadequate leader. She is just a child, and her selection as a ruler is probably the most boneheaded thing a country could decide to do...except for the Silver Flame. Because the Silver Flame's weakness is stronger than man's strength. Jaela is a very bad ruler, but if she listens to the Silver Flame and is guided by the Silver Flame, then she is the best ruler possible. Jaela's youth is making a very strong point about faith in the setting. It's the point of light in the darkness clouding the entire religion, and it's that light that makes the religion gray instead of completely black. You've said that you want to push the shades of gray theme in Eberron, but I think you might be going a bit too far by making Jaela fall. Cardinal Krozen and Thaliost already showcase the evil of the Church of the Silver Flame. If you make Jaela dark as well, where is the light?

Now, there's nothing wrong with painting The Church of the Silver Flame as completely corrupt, but you should be aware that that's what you're doing. Jaela is more than just a cute ruler...she's the very redemption of the church. There's really not much else in the campaign setting that gives hope for the church. She represents the faction that is still devoted to good. If she falls then there is no faction devoted to good and the Shadow's triumph is complete. Which is a perfectly legitimate story to tell, if that is what you want to tell. And I'm not quite sure, from what you've posted, if that is the case.

To fix that, I recommend putting a few more White Hats into the campaign before Jaela falls. Do some work to show the good friars and truly righteous templars in the faith, so that when Jaela falls the PCs still have reason to believe that there's something worthwhile in the Silver Flame.

Alternatively, you could make this the temptation of Jaela, where her allegiance is up for grabs. The villain makes a strong effort to woo her to his side, and unless the players do something about it he'll succeed. In this case, I'd say that the Silver Flame steps back from her while she's being tempted. The Silver Flame gives everyone a choice, and it steps back to give Jaela hers. But, it sends the PCs to give Jaela a fighting chance to make the right choice (have you read C.S. Lewis's Space Trilogy--Perelandra presents a scenario like this).

Another thought--if Rikath sees Jaela as his heir, then it will be extremely important to him that her innocence and purity remain unviolated. If anything, he's going to go to her seeking approval. He needs that in order to justify his actions. But if she gives approval because she falls, she's not really worthy to give approval. She would become just as flawed and broken as he himself is. He would want her to give approval as the true representative of the Silver Flame. You might have an opportunity for a great RP moment as he visits/infiltrates/invades Flame Keep specifically to get an audience with Jaela/The Silver Flame, and then she/it rejects him. How does he respond to that? Does it cause him to question his goals? Does he continue on with them anyway, and if so, why? Maybe Jaela almost talks him out of it, but then the PCs show up and drive him away by force, which only confirms his cycle of violence theories. He turns away from Jaela in bitterness and anger, but rather than attributing her rejection to his own wrong-headedness, he blames the PCs because clearly it wasn't Jaela who rejected him, but rather the PCs, and worse they did it by force.

Now, to arrange a fight between a righteous Jaela and the PCs...

Well, you could set it up so that the villain makes the PCs think that Jaela has fallen, and get them to attack her of their own free will. Maybe he has that audience with her and she rejects him...but she still gives him a blessing because she's sympathetic to his desires if not his methods, and extends a gesture of love to him in hope that it will make him repent. The PCs see it, and the villain manipulates the gesture to get the PCs to attack her. It could even be part of the villain's efforts to convince Jaela that the world is an inherently corrupt place, to prove to her that his ways really are justified.

As I mentioned earlier, the villain could frame the PCs so Jaela comes after them herself, thinking that they're really evil.

If you want Jaela to fall, there is precedent for it. Maybe in the strain of rulership, she snaps...just once, but still it's a grave sin. The PCs then go to confront her, show her the error of her ways, and she repents. The Flame might restore her afterwards since she genuinely feels that what she did was wrong (since the PCs have shown her the error of her ways).

For a complete fall, see what I said earlier. Even though Jaela is a redemptive figure, those figures do fall (see Saul in the O.T.). It's a process that takes quite a while, though, especially for people who start out genuinely good. You'll want to do a lot of foreshadowing, showing how Jaela changes from the person in the book to the person you need her to be for the campaign. Strip away the themes she starts with (redemption, faith), and then replace them with the themes you want (stress of rulership causes fractures).