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View Full Version : Breaking Core with a wizard 14; need some combo help



Samb
2009-11-19, 01:03 AM
So my DM says he wishes to go core only to help with the general theme of the campaign....... I hope he doesn't give my level 15 psychic rogue the axe (pretty sure XPH isn't core even if it is SRD), but I'm really miffed at the sudden change as I really liked my PC. He hasn't given specifics but if he does i'd like to break the game with a new wizard and show him that even core is not immune to game breaking.

I am a min/maxer, and I hold back in this group because I'm like the only one. I could have gone and used metamorphic transfer with metamorphosis or recharged PP, but I don't. I just bounce around and sneak attack people, I felt I played everything very safe.

Problem is I don't know arcane magic for core only. I have some inkling that planer binding is good, but I have no idea how to use it to break the game. What I need is advice on how to really make the rest of the party and the BBEG look like chumps, and still have the juice to do it again 4 more times a day.

The build is level 14 wizard, core only feats and spells. Your help is appreciated.

Behold_the_Void
2009-11-19, 01:07 AM
Couldn't you just, you know, decline to play instead of ruin the game for everyone else?

lsfreak
2009-11-19, 01:11 AM
Why exactly is he going Core-only? Simplicity, fluff, balance, something else? There's huge differences. Find out *exactly* why he wants Core-only. If he's going after balance, a demonstration - with the other players in on it - that Core is completely unbalanced may be in order.

If it's for any reason other than that, then my reply is 'don't be a jerk.'

Samb
2009-11-19, 01:12 AM
Couldn't you just, you know, decline to play instead of ruin the game for everyone else?

I drive 3 hours to play, so no I'm not going to sit it out. I just want to play my non-broken psychic rogue, I hope to just prove the point to my DM: if I wanted to I could, even with core only. I refrain from doing so because I enjoy the the teamwork, the fluff and advancing the plot.

I also enjoyed my PC, and I find his decision to try to balance things to be heavy handed. I have not exploited some infinite loop, I have not made a king of smack, I don't even use metamorphosis so why am I being punished for it?

Behold_the_Void
2009-11-19, 01:17 AM
I drive 3 hours to play, so no I'm not going to sit it out. I just want to play my non-broken psychic rogue, I hope to just prove the point to my DM: if I wanted to I could, even with core only. I refrain from doing so because I enjoy the the teamwork, the fluff and advancing the plot.

I also enjoyed my PC, and I find his decision to try to balance things to be heavy handed. I have not exploited some infinite loop, I have not made a king of smack, I don't even use metamorphosis so why am I being punished for it?

I can see the investment in a 3-hour drive, certainly, but do you really even need to play in this one? And even still, what will "proving a point" serve that logical discourse and compromise will not?

And again, didn't you say that core only fits the feel he's going for? Maybe he just doesn't want psionics in his world, a horrifically regrettable situation indeed but no cause for being a not-nice person, especially since this is presumably your friend, is it not?

Why not just take a break? Let them play this one out, save yourself some time and gas money, and hook back up with the group when they start another, less restrictive campaign?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-19, 01:19 AM
I drive 3 hours to play
I have a solution that will solve your problem with the DM, help you lose weight, improve the shine on your pet's coat, and save you 6 hours worth of fuel.

tyckspoon
2009-11-19, 01:21 AM
Efreeti can be bound with Planar Binding. Planar Binding requires an opposed Charisma check to get the Efreeti to do what you want. This check can be rigged very easily (Circlet of Persuasion, make the Efreeti shaken/sickened, Bestow Curse to penalize its saves, Lim. Wish..) You now have three wishes to use. This doesn't actually have to break the game, but it does tend to come as a nasty shock to DMs who only think of Wish as that 9th level spell that costs 5000 XP so nobody actually uses it for anything. If you really want to break stuff from here, the simplest approach is to get the Efreeti to make you three Candles of Invocation. Repeat until you have twenty or so, and then smash the campaign to shards by obliterating anything remotely threatening with a Titan.

If you can buy items, you should have all the economy-wrecking/infinite wealth generation techniques available as well (assuming you don't use your unlimited wishes to make yourself unlimited cash 25,000gp at a time, anyway.) So.. you know, enjoy whatever you feel like buying. Have a giant solid gold statue of yourself built.

Akal Saris
2009-11-19, 01:27 AM
How does breaking the game as a wizard prove that the psychic rogue isn't broken though? It will probably just convince the DM that both the wizard and the psychic rogue are broken, and that you're a munchkin who always picks broken characters.

My advice is to "break the game" with a core-only rogue. Clearly the rogue is not a broken class, and yet your 14 rogue is stronger than the psychic rogue you were playing (which he probably will be, as psychic rogue kinda sucks) - therefore, the psychic rogue is not broken.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-19, 01:34 AM
Wouldn't that just prove rogues are broken?

BobVosh
2009-11-19, 01:40 AM
Wouldn't that just prove rogues are broken?

Then you rinse and repeat with all the classes, until you get to monk. Good luck there.

Cheap shot at monks aside, I agree with the rest to just not do this thing. It will end only poorly.

Samb
2009-11-19, 01:41 AM
I can see the investment in a 3-hour drive, certainly, but do you really even need to play in this one? And even still, what will "proving a point" serve that logical discourse and compromise will not?

And again, didn't you say that core only fits the feel he's going for? Maybe he just doesn't want psionics in his world, a horrifically regrettable situation indeed but no cause for being a not-nice person, especially since this is presumably your friend, is it not?

Why not just take a break? Let them play this one out, save yourself some time and gas money, and hook back up with the group when they start another, less restrictive campaign?
Ummmm I have been using this PC for the last year and a half with little trouble. The least he can do have him die in an epic clash. He is a good friend of mine and will talk to him about this but if it comes down to it, I want him to see that core is really not the solution. We have a group of guys (me included) that aren't optimized at all. We don't even come close to breaking the game. I'll give you a basic setup so you can judge for yourself.
level 14 group
1) psyrogue
2) healbot cleric
3) "tank" pally
4) swordsage
5) blasty wizard (all slots are evocation spells that deal damage)
6) bard/arcane archer
7) warlock
8) BSF barbarian
No god mode wizard, no DMM cleric, just following the paradigms of a fantasy world and have been for the last 2 years. I'm not trying to be mean, but he has no idea what real damage a min/maxer like me can do. We are a self monitoring group, we don't power-game we police eachother for brokeniess. There was no need to strong arm us into another PC that we grew fond of.

Honestly I just want some help with a core only wizard 14. I hope to not have to use it, but if it comes down to it I will present it to him as a demonstration as to how players self control trumps his attepts to rein PCs in.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-19, 01:43 AM
Then you rinse and repeat with all the classes, until you get to monk. Good luck there.
But monks are already broken. Everyone knows that.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-19, 01:46 AM
Efreeti can be bound with Planar Binding. Planar Binding requires an opposed Charisma check to get the Efreeti to do what you want. This check can be rigged very easily (Circlet of Persuasion, make the Efreeti shaken/sickened, Bestow Curse to penalize its saves, Lim. Wish..) You now have three wishes to use. This doesn't actually have to break the game, but it does tend to come as a nasty shock to DMs who only think of Wish as that 9th level spell that costs 5000 XP so nobody actually uses it for anything. If you really want to break stuff from here, the simplest approach is to get the Efreeti to make you three Candles of Invocation. Repeat until you have twenty or so, and then smash the campaign to shards by obliterating anything remotely threatening with a Titan.

If you can buy items, you should have all the economy-wrecking/infinite wealth generation techniques available as well (assuming you don't use your unlimited wishes to make yourself unlimited cash 25,000gp at a time, anyway.) So.. you know, enjoy whatever you feel like buying. Have a giant solid gold statue of yourself built.You can also use those wishes for any magic item you desire, including scrolls of genesis, which you can cast with a CL check (the magic item gp limit on wish is only limited to how much XP you spend on casting wish, and efreet don't have to spend XP on their spell-like abilities, regardless of what they wish for). Create demiplanes where time runs 10,000x as fast as that on the material plane, and make them filled with diamonds and platinum.

Wish for castings of simulacrum. Grab armies of hundreds of thousands of efreet and solars. Wish for a ring gate. Have your armies delay until your turn, and have them Flyby Attack across the ring gate in some protected keep somewhere, while you hold the exit-side. Hundreds of thousands of spells every round. Have 'em plane shift to your fast-time demiplane whenever they run out of juice to recharge their spells and come back next round.

Wish for a ring of unlimited wishes, and one of Quickened unlimited wishes.

Start using web, grease, pyrotechnics, and glitterdust (and only those four, with Heightened Spell) to walk all over his encounters.

Heal better (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarBindingLesser.htm) than the cleric. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/unicorn.htm)

Out-tank the party's BSF. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonMonsterV.htm)

Out-sneak the rogue. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorph.htm) Out-trapspring the rogue. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mount.htm) Out-lockpick the rogue. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/knock.htm)

Get a wand to prep 150 extra spell slots each day. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mnemonicEnhancer.htm)

Get high-level minions more powerful than you are. Command them to fail their saves when you cast spells on them. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dominatePerson.htm)

And make sure you can do ALL OF THIS, every day, all day long, with item creation feats, scrolls, wands, metamagic rods, and rods of absorption. It's worth burning a level for (you get more XP that way).

That's not even including abuse you can render from explosive runes, solid fogs, acid fogs, walls of iron, forcecages, shadow evocations, shadow conjurations, metamagicked enervations, stone shapes, dimension locks + cloudkills, and on and on and on and on and...

Just make sure the other players and the DM know what you're trying to show them before you do it, so you don't get banned from the group.

BobVosh
2009-11-19, 01:50 AM
Honestly I just want some help with a core only wizard 14. I hope to not have to use it, but if it comes down to it I will present it to him as a demonstration as to how players self control trumps his attempts to rein PCs in.

A power struggle of player vs DM ends with the DM refusing to DM or the players pissed off and refusing to play. This will end only in tears.

If you really want to just look at the spells. Some spells are rubbish. Some are amazing. Just stick to conjuration for the most part and you will find a lot of winners. Transmutation will also help.


But monks are already broken. Everyone knows that.

Core is completely balanced. Everyone knows that.


Get a wand to prep 150 extra spell slots each day. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mnemonicEnhancer.htm)

Wow...Brilliant. I have never considered using a wand like this before.

herrhauptmann
2009-11-19, 01:50 AM
So he's unilaterally deleting your character because it's not core? Is everyone else allowed to keep their characters?
If so:
1) He's a jerk for doing that
2) Ask if you can rebuild your psychic rogue as a core rogue. Same personality, history etc. But replacing non core items with appropriate core items.
3)Seriously, don't play. I wouldn't be happy in a group where I was the only one forced to stop using a character I had grown fond of. Suddenly breaking the game can only sour everyone else on the game. Even if the DM capitulates afterwards on your rogue, he might still resent you breaking his game.

Tyndmyr
2009-11-19, 02:23 AM
Ask if he'll refluff your psyk rogue to, um...not be psychic. Explain that you want to keep playing the same character, but don't mind changing a bit of fluff to fit in.

If it's not really about the fluff, but ends up being a mid-campaign change to the rules, I wouldn't be surprised at you being upset, though.

Lets see...at level 14, you should have picked up a PrC. At least one level of loremaster is nice, for the free feat. Archmage is also popular, but hitting the prereqs for both can be rough. Im not personally adverse to going loremaster for quite a few levels though. The untyped bonuses to saves can be quite nice. After all, who wants to be mortal?

Candles of Invocation can and will break the game if not banned.

If allowed, go focused specialist. Ban junk like enchantment. Sure, you give up flexibility of a sort, but in return, you gain a ridiculous amount of spells per day. Having that many spells prepared is a much better form of flexibility. If not allowed, just specialize normally.

Buffs are big. Keeping up the right buffs make you much more powerful. Mage armor should be a given. Overland flight as well. Protection from Arrows. These will last all day at your level.

All sleeping should be done in a rope trick, making you pretty much immune to being ambushed.

Use spells like detect magic and detect thoughts to be aware of hidden stuff, traps and ambushers respectively. Also, detect magic can locate invisible types.

In combat, one of the best defensive spells will be mirror image, making it very, very unlikely that someone will hit you. Against melee types, protection against evil(change as required depending on mob) is literal immunity against mobs of the appropriate alignment that lack actual weapons. After all, you can't be punched if they can't come within a foot of you.

Locate object can often, though not always, solve your mcguffin finding woes. See also, Locate creature, Scrying. Why bother with "clues" and such when you have divination? Note that you can actually cast a bunch of detection spells via scrying, and most likely be successful at this level.

Nightmare is useful for remotely disabling spellcasters, finishing off the "almost dead" NPC that escapes at the end of the fight, etc. Technically, if he lacks access to healing(say, a lone guy in the middle of nowhere), you could kill him with just this. Just cast repeatedly in the middle of the night. Unlimited range. Sadly, you may still have to fly there to loot the body.

Permanency. See that list of personal buffs? Yeah, you want them. You want them all. Permanent see invisibility? Yes please. In addition, the permanent symbols work excellent on objects such as weapons, clothing, and other things you have visible. Why *should* people be allowed to gaze upon you without dying horribly?

The entire polymorph line. Be a better fighter than the fighters, if you actually feel like getting your hands dirty. A good option if you run into something with ridiculous spell resistance.

Fabricate. Waiting for the servants to build your palace is so tiresome. 140 cubic feet of crafting in a single cast is a *lot* of crafting. Build your own dungeon. See also, permanency, for adding all sorts of fun toys to it.

Dimension Door. A great spell. Sure, it looks like a poor mans teleport, but look, your range is nearly a thousand feet. In terms of dungeons, that's a long ways. Note that you can also bring a person or items with you. Ignoring entire dungeons and getting the item in seconds is always handy. Also, note that unlike Teleport, it has no failure chance. In addition, it has only verbal components. You can be grappled, naked, and tied to a wall, and still escape. You want this.



I should point out that pretty much all of the above were 5th level and below, since I believe in keeping the big guns for ending the lives of those who annoy you. If you disagree, Repulsion is a great anti-melee tool. Frankly, the lower level stuff above is probably sufficient, but hey, you can never have too many layers of "no".

True Seeing is probably one of the best buffs of all time. Basically negates the entire illusion school.

Contingency. Excellent. Should ALWAYS be used. Probably the single best reason not to ban evocation. Note that this lasts all day as well. All those great buff spells with short durations? This is a great way to get them exactly when you need them. Frankly, the uses of this spell are limited only by your own creativity, really.

Heroism is also pretty good. At 140min long without bothering to extend it, it's a pretty solid general lower level buff.


Lets look at your big guns, the seventh level spells.

Spell Turning. Frigging awesome. If you ever fight casters, you need this.

Reverse Gravity. Because it's hilarious. Also, usually no save. If indoors, you can get falling damage both when casting and when dismissing it. Bonus points if there are heavy, loose objects on the ground, under the targets. Take falling damage, then take damage from big object landing on you. Then it gets dispelled, and it happens again.

Forcecage. You don't always need to kill something, or you may not know what to do with something for a bit. Trap it, and think it over for a while. Read a book. Poke him with a stick. Note that it lasts longer than a day, so if you're bored, you can keep him as a pet until the end of time.

Finger of Death. For when you get bored of something, and just want it to die.

Banishment. Goodbye outsiders.

Etherial Jaunt. Against the vast majority of opponents, effective immortality.

Simulacrum. You know what's better than one wizard? Two wizards. Copy yourself. Have bitch-wizard handle all the low level spell tasks, buffing you, etc, while you do the fun stuff.

Limited Wish. Fun and games. A good go-to if you need something interesting, and didn't happen to prepare something for that specifically.



If none of the above are powerful enough for your taste, in one level, you get 8th level spells, with even more world-shattering power. Prismatic wall is my personal favorite.

Oh, btw, the above doesn't even get into feats. Take quicken spell and extend spell. The former lets you break action economy even more than you already do. In conjunction with bitch-wizard, prebuffing your all-day buffs, and a well chosen contingency, this allows you to do quite a lot every single round without wasting time buffing up at the start of every fight. Extend spell turns your 10min/level spells into 20min/level spells. Frankly, 280 minutes is a lot of time.

I also suggest Craft Wonderous Item and Improved Init. Generally, once you act, you win. No point giving others the chance to do things first. Craft Wonderous Item saves you gold in items, but more importantly, it removes the availability issue. No more DM saying "Oh, you can't find an item worth 200,000 gold here" You just make it.

So, back to simulacrum. You can have more than one. They are under your absolute command. Now, the copies of yourself are a mere level 7, but multiple level 7 minions have their uses. However, since you can duplicate things with twice your level...you can duplicate anyone you can incapacitate, pretty much. They don't need to be willing, and they don't get a saving throw. The stronger and crazier the things the DM throws at you, the stronger and crazier the minions you add to your ever-growing army of freaks.

Toss in a few undead for giggles, raised in the traditional way, if you didn't ban necro, and you can add a few more fun toys to your army. Sure, you don't want to waste simulacrums if you can avoid it...they have a gp and xp cost, but keeping an army at your beck and call can mop up annoying small details without risk, and in case of actual danger arising(say, a very well equipped, very large, well leveled army personally trying to kill you), you can bust them out for mass devastation.

Side note, you also want to max UMD. Replace your party heal-bot with wands and such. Pick up wands of anything interesting from other spell lists. Get creative. At this level, you'll have at least a +8 from ranks. With synergy bonuses, you can get an additional +4 to scrolls. If you've got any cha at all, you can cast quite a bit, with failure being rather unlikely. Alternatively, get a cleric minion.

Oh, you also want the feat Leadership. This will give you a 12th level cohort(obviously, pick another wizard. For fun, give him leadership as well), 1 2nd level follower and 15 1st level followers. The cohort is the main thing, but hey, may as well have an entourage. Note that if you're making simulacrums and crafting, the xp expense will allow the cohort to rapidly catch up, ending up only one level below you. This can result in a rather large number of wizards from the leadership chain alone. If you don't want to pay the xp cost for crafting items yourself, you can have one of these guys do it as well. Probably better that way. Make sure you get all the crafting feats strung out among these guys. May as well have everyone riding in style.

This is far from everything you can do to break the game as a wizard, but it's a good start, and you're already vastly more powerful than the rest of the party. Once you're here, you should be able to use your imagination.

Tyndmyr
2009-11-19, 02:29 AM
Can't believe I forgot Ring Gate.

You can cast through those. So, have your minions carry one around. Chill in your completely safe, insanely well guarded flying fortress(see, permanencied wall of force), drinking your beverage of choice, watching the action of your minion adventurers. Command them through the gate, cast through the gate.

Note that each gate has a distinct in and out side. Thus, mount your gate on a wall. On the side that would send things to you, put a force cage, and the most horrible things you can imagine. No worries about things getting to you.

If your minions are in trouble, simply cast whatever you need to cast through the gate.

Basically, as a wizard, you don't even need to break the game yourself, you can outsource it.

Eldariel
2009-11-19, 02:52 AM
Eh, I really, really suggest you try to find some more constructive way to get through this. I mean, he really has no reason to ban your Psychic Rogue, does he? Just ask him to make a policy of making non-core stuff Approval Only; that should cover you.

Breaking Core is just too easy though. The big ones:
- Planar Binding-line; Circlet of Persuasion, eventual Moment of Prescience, you can get anything. Greater Planar Binding gets you a pet Pit Fiend (level 15 stuff). Lesser gets you a Nightmare and normal can...well, it can get you an Efreet, but we don't speak of that.
- Polymorph-line; use Hydra-forms, Giant-forms, Will-O'-Wisp forms, etc. for maximum effect. Get permanent Polymorph Any Object into Planetar for 22 base Int and apply all the bonuses there (with a purchased casting). If necessary, start as Tiefling. Shapechange to get you full Cleric-casting off a scroll...
- Candle of Invocation; honestly, don't use these 'cause it's a bit too ridiculous.
- Just basic control-based offense with some Bound monsters doing the beatdown, miss chance/image/contingency-based defense, etc. Normal Wizard-fare.
- UMDd Beads of Karma & co. for great justice.
- Stacking stuff like Symbol of X or Explosive Runes or such can get pretty nasty.

But honestly, don't break things too bad.

DragoonWraith
2009-11-19, 03:12 AM
Actually, Candle of Invocation... doesn't require spellcasting. Go ahead, be a core Rogue, and break the game with that.

Or, better, don't. Because it's a really bad solution to the problem.

Shademan
2009-11-19, 03:52 AM
what about just talking to the dm?
"hey dude. wizards are totally easy to break. and the psy-rogue is kinda easy to break (for me at least) too. But I didn't! Because I don't wanna be a duche/dutch/whatever. And I REALLY like my rogue so can't I just pleasepleaseplease play him?"
and if the DM persist...well...show him this thread. Wizards can easly TAKE OVER THE WORLD! OF COURSE!
Your psyrogue does what? some extra damage to the ogre?
˙yyeeeaaaahhhh.... I prefer the rogue

gorfnab
2009-11-19, 04:08 AM
Max out ranks in Craft Poison or Craft Alchemy + 1 vial Black Lotus Extract + an empty barrel + Major Creation spell = A barrel full of Black Lotus Extract
Actually just creative uses of Minor and Major Creation can be game breaking.

weenie
2009-11-19, 06:08 AM
I just broke a wizard at lvl 12 in a core only game. Here's what you do:

-Get all the prerequisites for red wizard and enter the PrC at level 9(if you want to break the game at earlier levels take it sooner)
-Take Leadership, make your cohort be a wizard with tatoo focus(found in the dmg next to the red wizard text) and get some followers with the same feat
-use circle magic to drain all the magic away from your minions and cast a maximized disintegrate at cl 40+ with a save of 28+int at the BBEG
-cast buffs that can't be dispelled short of a disjunction
-cast all other sorts of fun maximized&empowered stuff without having to pay for the metamagic(enervation comes to mind)

Well, that seems broken enough to me, but I'm sure you could come up with even cheesier stuff if you really wanted to.

EDIT: oh, i almost forgot. Since you take red wizard at lvl 9 you can learn all the good spells from the school you're about to prohibit, even those you can't cast yet, so you don't really lose anything by taking the PrC.

PinkysBrain
2009-11-19, 07:19 AM
Leadership is a DM fiat feat, no more worthy of mention in optimization than variant classes and custom magic items (unless explicitly allowed). At level 14 you can break red wizard with simulacrums, which is completely core and requires no DM fiat (other than following RAW and not kicking you in the head the moment he notices what you are trying to do).

Saph
2009-11-19, 07:23 AM
How does breaking the game as a wizard prove that the psychic rogue isn't broken though? It will probably just convince the DM that both the wizard and the psychic rogue are broken, and that you're a munchkin who always picks broken characters.

This.

It's a really, really bad idea, as all the posters before me have explained. We can't stop you if you're determined to go through with it, though.

Jayabalard
2009-11-19, 07:30 AM
If he's going after balance, a demonstration - with the other players in on it - that Core is completely unbalanced may be in order.I disagree... doing that to the group is still being an asshat.


How does breaking the game as a wizard prove that the psychic rogue isn't broken though? It will probably just convince the DM that both the wizard and the psychic rogue are broken, and that you're a munchkin who always picks broken characters.That's what it would prove to me.

Tyndmyr
2009-11-19, 09:05 AM
If that's what it would prove, then clearly, you haven't checked out psyc rogue. It's pretty reasonable in terms of power level.

I definitely do advise that he bring up simple refluffing options and such first, and if possible, get other players that dont want to randomly reroll on his side.

If that fails because the DM is under the illusion that "core is balanced", an example is in order. Wizard isn't the only game-breaker, either.

Toliudar
2009-11-19, 09:07 AM
Of these suggestions, I will support the "use a rogue" - perhaps an adaptation of your beloved psychic rogue? - and "don't be an asshat" suggestions. Rather than trying to suck focus by optimizing a wizard.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-11-19, 09:45 AM
Honestly, don't do this. If you have a backup plan, you won't put as much effort into your primary plan (i.e. arguing that your psychic-rogue can stay). Put everything into the primary plan, because the backup plan is infeasible (will make you look liek an asshat lol)

Johel
2009-11-19, 10:52 AM
Level 14 ? You don't need to go that high to break the game with core. :smallsmile:


Magic circle against [choose an alignement that isn't the one of creature X]
Planar Binding : call creature X
Make it step out of the circle.
Mind Fog : -10 to will save
Feeblemind : Int and Cha drop to 1
Lesser Geas : "Read me that book"
Blindness/Deafness : now, it can't read


In the following days, it will become weaker and weaker because it cannot complete its geas and is too stupid to think of a way to get rid of its blindness (also, it's too stupid to read, probably).


Bestow Curse : -4 to saves
Bestow Curse : 50% inaction
Bestow Curse : -6 Wisdom


Ask a cleric to cast "Remove Blindness/Deafness".
Cast "Charm Monster"
You now have a broken willing slave with a permanent -6 to its initial will save. Make good use of the at-will SLA of your slave.

The Succubus gives you an at-will "Charm Monster" and "Suggestion".
This means you can have a N number of indirect servants if you can keep the Succubus under control.

The Ravid gives you an at-will "Animate Object" at CL 20, though it's random.
This means you can have up to 20 random Animated Objects fighting for you...or a single Gargantuan animated object if you can lock the Ravid inside of it (random isn't random when there's only 1 target).

The Janni gives you a at-will "Planeshift" ability.
This means easy travel for you. Also, it can feed you.

The Efritti has an awesome "3 wishes/day" ability but this can backfire if the DM is clever.

Devils and Demons have tons of useful at-will SLA.
The only tricky part is to prevent them to just Greater Teleport away.

Ormagoden
2009-11-19, 10:53 AM
I /agree with most of the suggestions here.

Breaking the game and pissing of the DM/other players on purpose is the hallmark of a bad player.

The only thing it will help you take a step towards is out the door.
Do you really want to cause that much stress in your group?

Just talk to the DM say you really like the psychic-rogue and that you want to come to an agreement with the DM on it. Its very possible the DM just isn't that familiar with the rules you want to use and that because you command them better than the DM it makes them uncomfortable.

What you are suggesting is very juvenile. If the DM doesn't acquiesce its time to find a new group, because obviously you don't really care about your current group.

Optimystik
2009-11-19, 10:57 AM
I drive 3 hours to play,
I have a solution that will solve your problem with the DM, help you lose wait, improve the shine on your pet's coat, and save you 6 hours worth of fuel.

Very much this.

Emmerask
2009-11-19, 11:28 AM
So my DM says he wishes to go core only to help with the general theme of the campaign....... I hope he doesn't give my level 15 psychic rogue the axe (pretty sure XPH isn't core even if it is SRD), but I'm really miffed at the sudden change as I really liked my PC. He hasn't given specifics but if he does i'd like to break the game with a new wizard and show him that even core is not immune to game breaking.

I am a min/maxer, and I hold back in this group because I'm like the only one. I could have gone and used metamorphic transfer with metamorphosis or recharged PP, but I don't. I just bounce around and sneak attack people, I felt I played everything very safe.

Problem is I don't know arcane magic for core only. I have some inkling that planer binding is good, but I have no idea how to use it to break the game. What I need is advice on how to really make the rest of the party and the BBEG look like chumps, and still have the juice to do it again 4 more times a day.

The build is level 14 wizard, core only feats and spells. Your help is appreciated.

Sure I´m happy to help you ruin the fun for everyone else in your group...
...
no, not really

Why not just talk to your gm? Tell him why your class isn´t broken, why you want to play it and if he really doesn´t want to play anything but core this time tell him that in that case you will sit this one out?
Act like a grown up you know :smallwink:

monkey3
2009-11-19, 11:44 AM
I think the OP is missing something because he is looking at it from his point of view. Then he posts from his point of view, and other people reply as helpful as they can be. Let's try a different angle.

What if the OP -is- breaking the game with a psychic rogue. He doesn't realize it, and he is not trying, but breaking the game is relative. I have played in a game where the druid in the party spent his round using a sling (not making that up). In such a game, a fighter who takes all the right feats with specialization and power attack is breaking the game compared to the rest of the party. For the record, that is no fault of the fighter. However, if this fighter wants to not draw the ire of the DM and other players, it makes sense for him to help out the other players to be better.

Such a psychic rogue could help out the blaster wizard in the group and teach him about grease, mirror image, and charm person.

Speaking without much data as the the OP's campaign (why should I stop if no one in this thread is), here is my guess as to what happened: The DM in OP's campaign feels a little overwhelmed by a player who is unintentionally playing enough above the other players' level so as to frustrate the players and possibly the DM. The DM does not want the OP to feel singled-out (they are good friends...) so he say the the campaign will be core from now. The DM knows this will have no significant affect on the other players, but it might bring the OP down somewhat.

The OP doesn't get the DM's hint, and this thread starts, including infinite wishes, and minions. These advice are not helpful in any possible situation.

My advice (given my faulty lack of data) is to play along. Play a regular rogue; try not to outshine everyone. At each session, take the weakest player and TEACH him how to play his character better. In a month, you'll be able to play the rogue to his potential, and given time, he'll be psychic again.

Tyndmyr
2009-11-19, 12:21 PM
You can play a relatively unoptimized blaster wizard and not be outshined by a psyc rogue. Blaster wizards may not be godly, but they are still pretty decent.

misterk
2009-11-19, 02:14 PM
I'm a little confused by the op here. Do you intend to create this wizard, bring him into play, then break the game, in an insufferably smug manner? Or do you intend to simply show him the character sheet and say- "look he can do this!"? Cause then you could just point at this thread (or indeed, any of the many threads about breaking a game). I would suggest retooling your character to be a rogue, or inquiring to the gm as to why he wants to make its change. Maybe its as the previous poster said, your character is just outshadowing everyone elses without you meaning to.

Yukitsu
2009-11-19, 02:22 PM
When my DMs go on banning sprees, removing fun options, but leaving core intact, I usually play wizards like this. Under normal circumstances, I'll play something like a rogue/paladin, or a ranger/fighter. But as the options that make those viable options are diminished, I tend to play wizards, because if I can't be something fun, I may as well be powerful, so I can sort of sympathise with the OP here. My most broken characters tend to be in highly restricted games.

That said, play a druid in the normal manner. You'll basically be set going in as a druid core only. That way you don't have to be an open jerk about it.

erikun
2009-11-19, 03:22 PM
While everyone is arguing over what to do and not to do, I'll see if I can provide some help with your original question. :smallwink: Now, I'm going to be recommending a Batman Wizard. Not a Trippy/Pun-Pun/Solar-Binding-Infinite-Wishes Wizard, but one who has a large number of buffs and save-or-suck spells. Your job will be to make the rest of the party far better, to disable enemies for the party to hack apart, and to have backup spells incase the rogue/ranger/whatever can't find something, can't open a door, or can't disable a trap.

I'm not an expert on this, but here's the list of the "best" core wizard spells. Please note that I may miss quite a few of them.

1st level:
Protection from Good (cast on an ally)
Grease (cast on an opponent's feet)
Magic Missile (maximized, empowered)
Ray of Enfeeblement (no save STR penality)
Enlarge Person (for melee)
Reduce Person (for yourself/ranged)

2nd level:
Glitterdust (save vs. suck)
Web (save vs. suck)
See Invisibility
Scorching Ray (awesome blasting spell)
Blur (20% miss chance)
Invisibility (for the rogue)
Mirror Image (extra miss chance, self only)
Blindness/Deafness (save vs. suck)
Levitate (cheap Fly)

3rd level:
Dispel Magic
Explosive Runes (fun)
Magic Circle against Evil (cast on ally)
Nondetection (cheap Mind Blank, may not be necessary)
Stinking Cloud (save vs. suck area)
Phantom Steed (handy for travel)
Tiny Hut (handy for travel)
Invisibility Sphere
Ray of Exhaustion (save vs. suck)
Blink
Fly
Gaseous Form
Haste (buff for melee)
Magic Weapon, Greater
Slow (save vs. suck against full attackers)

4th level:
Globe of Invulnerability, Lesser (good for mage fights)
Black Tentacles (save vs. suck area)
Dimension Door
Solid Fog (save vs. suck area)
Invisibility, Greater
Shadow Conjuration (duplicate all those save vs. suck Conjurations)
Bestow Curse (save vs. suck)
Enervation (no save just suck)
Polymorph (turn the fighter into a lizardman, for starters)

5th level:
Break Enchantment (dispel magic +10)
Dismissal (anti-summoning)
Cloudkill (save or suck/die)
Teleport
Wall of Stone (great for retreating)
Telepathic Bond
Feeblemind (save or suck vs. spellcasters)
Mind Fog
Wall of Force
Shadow Evocation (less useful, but good for "subdual" nuking)
Waves of Fatigue (save or suck area)
Baleful Polymorph (cheap)
Fabricate (make free stuff)
Overland Flight (Fly all day, or most of it)

6th level:
Dispel Magic, Greater
Globe of Invulnerability
True Seeing
Heroism, Greater
Contingency (Contingency Teleport is a typical one)
Mislead
Disintegrate

Good spells (in wands) to have on hand:
Endure Elements
Comprehend Languages
Detect Secret Doors
Knock
Tongues
Water Breathing

...I'm sure I missed a bunch, especially at higher levels. Heck, I didn't even look at 7th level, which you will get access to by level 13.

As you can see, there are an ABSURDLY large number of spells you can use, and most of them follow the same logic: either buff your allies, nerf your opponents, or give you options that your party wouldn't have otherwise. I didn't even touch Enchantments (charm person, dominate monster) which can be used in combat to "disable" an enemy, or used in social situations when the bard bombs his diplomancy (and you just need to get out of there). There's also the Illusion line of spells, where something as simple as a Silent Image (1st level spell) of a solid wall can allow the party rogue to sneak attack without retaliation, until the enemy makes its save or moves away.


[edit] On the other hand, if you want to play Trippy and bind chain-wishing Solars, I'm not the one to ask about it.

Samb
2009-11-19, 03:43 PM
I did have a talk with my DM and he relented, after I listed a few f the thing you guys have told me. He acknowledged that I didn't abuse my psy rogue (is it even abusable?) and I generally hold back for my teammates. He won't let me continue as a psy rogue but said that the SRD psionic classes are still in.

He just wanted to cut down on all the stuff he needs to keep track of and he felt the swordsage was overstepping the balance (granted we did have to raise him twice now since swordsages can't take hits at all).

So psionics are still in but my PC is still out. I guess I'll be going back to a wilder/fighter.

DragoonWraith
2009-11-19, 03:45 PM
...that still makes no sense (Psychic Rogues don't introduce any new mechanics), and I'd still be calling BS on that. Unilaterally side-lining a character mid-game is just not cool.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-11-19, 03:46 PM
Eh, sounds iffy. But as long as you're satisfied with things... Glad to see we could help in a non-violent manner.
And I'm sure you could break Psychic Rogue with proper application of Expanded Knowledge.

Zeful
2009-11-19, 04:23 PM
So my DM says he wishes to go core only to help with the general theme of the campaign....... I hope he doesn't give my level 15 psychic rogue the axe (pretty sure XPH isn't core even if it is SRD), but I'm really miffed at the sudden change as I really liked my PC. He hasn't given specifics but if he does i'd like to break the game with a new wizard and show him that even core is not immune to game breaking.

I am a min/maxer, and I hold back in this group because I'm like the only one. I could have gone and used metamorphic transfer with metamorphosis or recharged PP, but I don't. I just bounce around and sneak attack people, I felt I played everything very safe.

Problem is I don't know arcane magic for core only. I have some inkling that planer binding is good, but I have no idea how to use it to break the game. What I need is advice on how to really make the rest of the party and the BBEG look like chumps, and still have the juice to do it again 4 more times a day.

The build is level 14 wizard, core only feats and spells. Your help is appreciated.

Questions:
Did the DM tell you it was core only after everyone had rolled up a character? After a day of stating he wanted to start the game? During a session? The first could be him messing with you (but likely not), the second is likely an oversight (looking through the books and realizes X doesn't fit the campaign theme), the third is him being a jerk. Also why haven't you talked to the DM about this? Coming to a forum where the majority think that DMs who play core-only are idiots of some flavor1 won't be getting you the correct answer of Talk to the DM too often. Honestly most DMs are not unreasonable people, and if you approach them respectfully, you'll likely get to play your character as is (or if it's totally impossible to fit in, a damn good reason as to why it's impossible). Destroying everyone else's fun to prove your point is only acceptable if everyone else is already ruining your fun (and I do mean everyone).

So talk it over with your DM and relay your concerns about the campaign. If it's irreconcilable, leave.

1:This is a generalization of the attitude of posters on this forum over my time here, if you take offense, you are the exception, likely.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-19, 04:30 PM
I have a solution that will solve your problem with the DM, help you lose weight, improve the shine on your pet's coat, and save you 6 hours worth of fuel.Shouldn't that be, "help you lose wait"?

Roland St. Jude
2009-11-19, 04:50 PM
Shouldn't that be, "help you lose wait"?

Weight, whut?

Drogorn
2009-11-19, 04:50 PM
Shouldn't that be, "help you lose wait"?

This really ought not be necessary.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/weight

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/wait

Logalmier
2009-11-19, 04:56 PM
This really ought not be necessary.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/weight

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/wait

I think it was a joke.:smallwink:

The Glyphstone
2009-11-19, 05:02 PM
At least he didn't ask us to help him lose 'wight', we're fresh out of clerics right now.

Oslecamo
2009-11-19, 05:03 PM
I guess that the fans of the other systems were right that in D&D player and DM ooc talk is quite rare.


Trying to breack the campaign will breack other much more valuable things.

TALK! It solves a lot of problems.

Akal Saris
2009-11-19, 05:24 PM
At least he didn't ask us to help him lose 'wight', we're fresh out of clerics right now.

At least some of us can tell the difference between wight and wrong!

As a sidenote, I'm glad to see that the situation worked out, though as I said before, I don't see how psychic rogue is supposed to be over-powered compared to the standard rogue. Or harder to keep track of, unless the DM carefully keeps track of your power points or something.

Ah well, best of luck with the psychic warrior.

erikun
2009-11-19, 05:44 PM
I did have a talk with my DM and he relented, after I listed a few f the thing you guys have told me. He acknowledged that I didn't abuse my psy rogue (is it even abusable?) and I generally hold back for my teammates. He won't let me continue as a psy rogue but said that the SRD psionic classes are still in.
Well, that's good to hear... sort of. I don't see why a Psychic Warrior is somehow better than a Psychic Rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b), given that they have similarly sized lists of powers.

Well good luck with your Wilder/Fighter, although I would think a Wilder/Slayer or Wilder/Warmind would be more efficient. (Then again, we wouldn't want your DM to explode again from your apparent psionic awesomeness. :smallamused:)