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Zovc
2009-11-19, 06:59 PM
(Possibly--probably--the wrong forum, sorry in advance.)

Sure, it sounds--and looks see Darth Maul--cool, but it just hit me that the saber-staff is not practical.

If you ask me, the most intuitive thing about a staff is its ability to block, particularly with the 'middle' of it. If you tried to block with the midsection of a saber-staff, well, you probably wouldn't have long to regret it.

I don't have much experience at all with combat, so I could just be misguided.

Starbuck_II
2009-11-19, 07:06 PM
(Possibly--probably--the wrong forum, sorry in advance.)

Sure, it sounds--and looks see Darth Maul--cool, but it just hit me that the saber-staff is not practical.

If you ask me, the most intuitive thing about a staff is its ability to block, particularly with the 'middle' of it. If you tried to block with the midsection of a saber-staff, well, you probably wouldn't have long to regret it.

I don't have much experience at all with combat, so I could just be misguided.

No, Force Pikes are great at blocking lightsabers. This is why the Trade empire had them.

Or are you referring to double sided lightsabers?

Why would you block with the middle of the staff? Isn't that more likely to be bad if they cleave through it?

Foryn Gilnith
2009-11-19, 07:19 PM
Wookieepedia claims that the lightsaber staff is quite inferior to normal lightsabers. Between the extreme risk of self-injury and the unusual style required, it is generally an inferior (and consequently rarely used) weapon. It was designed "to look cool" - in other words, to intimidate enemies and throw them off-guard. Sort of like a left-handed fencer with a heavy dose of psychological warfare.

IIRC the lightsaber staff is designed for constant movement. This is to take advantage of its benefits - fearsomeness (OMG lightsaber blades everywhere) and unpredictability (target unused to parrying this manner of attack). It also minimizes the listed drawback of inefficient blocking - you dodge the attack instead, and if you need to parry, you'll likely be far away enough from the attack origin that you can't accidentally block with the middle.

I might have just invented that explanation while playing KOTOR, though.

Jade_Tarem
2009-11-19, 07:54 PM
If Jedi Academy taught me anything, it's that the Saber Staff is the noob stick. Killing people with it is ridiculously easy. The secret lies in the fact that the AI opponents block the attacks of the staff awkwardly, and...

What's that, you say? This is a discussion about how it would work outside a video game?

Well, alright. In-universe, Star Wars's stance is pretty much what Foryn says. They also mention that the lightsaber style associated with it is "incomplete" - a term that (when they use it) means "it sucks now but later there will be a character who will complete it and rock face with it. Just you wait."

In reality, it seems like it would be extremely impractical. Most people would likely die while training with it, and it would likely be pretty easy to beat down the defense of someone wielding one through brute strength, given the awkward way you have to hold it.

shadow_archmagi
2009-11-19, 08:00 PM
"Not practical. In some cases helpful due to psychological value. "

ericgrau
2009-11-19, 08:32 PM
Well, if you're talking 3.5 it's a brilliant energy double sword or perhaps a brilliant energy quarterstaff. Quite expensive since you need to enchant both ends.

Hmm, basically it's TWF. A rogue who faces a lot of armored opponents could get some use from it. But concealing it would be nigh-impossible.

Hat-Trick
2009-11-19, 09:18 PM
When training with lightsabers, the wielders usually use the "stun" setting (If I'm right, they have those). You don't kill yourself training, although I suppose you'd be laughed at by the other younglings for the minor burns covering your body. Maybe that's why Maul has tattoos. to hide his training scars.

Thanatos 51-50
2009-11-19, 09:25 PM
Y'see, I think it would be practical and just amplifying the confusing psychological effect to train everyone who is using a lightsabre staff in Tra'kata (Rapidly activating and de-activating the blade during the fight).
Of course, I've yet to see any Tra'kata in the movies.

Hat-Trick
2009-11-19, 10:24 PM
Tra'kata is a fun little bit to screw with your enemy. I want to know why no one supplements their saber skills by levitating additional sabers. It would take a very good multitasker, but it would be very rewarding, I think.

arguskos
2009-11-19, 10:34 PM
You can also do as Exan Kun did, and vary the frequency of each end individually during fights, so you swing with one end and dial it to 0 (a shaft of light). When they're confused as to what just happened, you "WTFROFLPWN" with the other blade since they're not expecting it. :smallbiggrin:

Superglucose
2009-11-19, 10:46 PM
It's generally assumed, iirc, that single < dual blade < two lightsabers. Still, dual-bladed-lightsabers are intimidating on the order of "ZOMG two blades!" Still, if you watch, you'll notice that Obi-Wan was able to kill Darth Maul going 1 blade vs a dual.

Mongoose87
2009-11-19, 11:20 PM
I think the biggest advantage of it is simply that it's so rare, opponents don't know how to defend against it. The fact that it's both difficult to master and dangerous to use makes it extremely uncommon, so no one has experience against it.

Tyndmyr
2009-11-19, 11:35 PM
The advantages of fighting with a regular staff include lots of blocking surface, and the ability to rapidly change grip on the staff in order to get a wide variety of attacks, some of which have great reach.

The lightsaber staff has none of these, and due to the danger of the back end, a bunch of normal techniques would either be terribly dangerous or downright impossible.

So, compare a bladed staff in real life to a sword...and realize that this comparison is even less practical.

Jade_Tarem
2009-11-19, 11:39 PM
When training with lightsabers, the wielders usually use the "stun" setting (If I'm right, they have those). You don't kill yourself training, although I suppose you'd be laughed at by the other younglings for the minor burns covering your body. Maybe that's why Maul has tattoos. to hide his training scars.

Aww, but then he missed out on some great dialogue.

"Y'wanna know how I got these scars? Well, one day, I was training with my saber staff, and my master came by and saw that I had it on stun. Well, he didn't like that, and he made me switch it to 'burn.' And as I tried to run through my training katas with it, I was scorched again and again and again. And when he saw that my master laughed and asked, 'Why so Sidious?'"

Saintjebus
2009-11-19, 11:49 PM
Aww, but then he missed out on some great dialogue.

"Y'wanna know how I got these scars? Well, one day, I was training with my saber staff, and my master came by and saw that I had it on stun. Well, he didn't like that, and he made me switch it to 'burn.' And as I tried to run through my training katas with it, I was scorched again and again and again. And when he saw that my master laughed and asked, 'Why so Sidious?'"

You, sir, win the thread. Have an internet, and a cookie.

Mewtarthio
2009-11-19, 11:54 PM
Tra'kata is a fun little bit to screw with your enemy. I want to know why no one supplements their saber skills by levitating additional sabers. It would take a very good multitasker, but it would be very rewarding, I think.

Kreia pulls it off. With three at once (though she doesn't have any hands at that point).


Aww, but then he missed out on some great dialogue.

"Y'wanna know how I got these scars? Well, one day, I was training with my saber staff, and my master came by and saw that I had it on stun. Well, he didn't like that, and he made me switch it to 'burn.' And as I tried to run through my training katas with it, I was scorched again and again and again. And when he saw that my master laughed and asked, 'Why so Sidious?'"

Quoted, so that posterity may know of your greatness.

Katana_Geldar
2009-11-20, 05:30 AM
Saga makes a double-bladed lightsaber harder to use than a regular lightsaber, it requires 2 damage rolls and you'll need at least Dual Weapon Mastery which requires not only lightsabers proficency feat to overcome the penalty but need a Dex of 13 and a Base attack of at least one, and it goes up.

There's also a -10 penalty for attacking with both ends of this that can be only overcome by taking all three Dual Weapon feats, but doing this is a full-round atcion anyway so you're pretty much a sitting duck.

A good target for a grenade, methinks. That's how I dealt with Dark Jedi in KOTOR anyway :smallbiggrin:

The Rose Dragon
2009-11-20, 05:46 AM
The biggest advantage of a double-headed lightsaber is that it takes only one crystal to power both ends. So, if you have a special amplifying crystal, you can place it in the lightsaber and have two super lightsabers for the price of one.

Triaxx
2009-11-20, 05:48 AM
I have a character who uses three, one normally and two others when he needs to block incoming fire. He does dual wield on occasion, but then it's only two weapons, since not slicing off your arm and concentrating on a third weapon is kind of hard.

DMfromTheAbyss
2009-11-20, 06:03 AM
I'd be the first to admit that training with a double bladed weapon would be more difficult. The advantages to having a longer leverarm to push and pull the saber (double sabers generally have double the length handle or so) and the ability of a very well trained user to get in a lot of attacks in a short period of time make the weapon usable at least.. IF you are one of those martial arts types who doesn't mind training with it a lot.

Game wise in KOTOR(s) it was optimal becouse it dealt better damage and let you get away with applying the best mods to both sabers at once, at the cost of a slight penalty to hit which could be canceled out with feats etc.
(By the end of the second game I could kill Sion in one flurry or so.. so yeah in that game it was awesome statistically)

In the older Starwars games I've similarly seen it used to amazing effects... from battlemasters wading through waves of critters in West End (yes they had them before episode 1.. when I first saw Darth Maul I was like "HOLY CRAP they're toast he's a Sith Battlemaster!")

In d20 and Revised if you had the neccessary feats they were in no statistical way different than having two sabers, so it was totally a style issue. Some shmucks used them to look impresive.. some obsessive combat types could do some wrong amazing stuff.. again it just meant needing a character dedicated to using them right.

SAGA seems to gimp them somewhat.. a backlash from the Darth Maul clones effect perhaps. (as everyone needed to have them to look cool, which was kinda sad frankly, much like the Drizzt character clone thing)

I'd say though that it all comes down to weither you are trained enough in their use.. Personally I'd certainly take a double blade over a standard just for the extra options it leaves open. Then again I will admit they are more limited in options than a staff or polearm (no ability to use/grip the ends..) though for fast hits and in close quarter staff style fighting they would work fine:smallbiggrin:

PS(from my own martial arts experiences you generally don't want to block with the middle of a staff anyway, as it's then a purely defensive manuver that limits your ability to hit back... unless you like hockey (crosschecking FTW))

Katana_Geldar
2009-11-20, 06:06 AM
I usually make lightsabers very hard to get items in my game anyway, a hangover from KOTOR when you had them coming out of your ears.

Talya
2009-11-20, 07:58 AM
There's also a -10 penalty for attacking with both ends of this that can be only overcome by taking all three Dual Weapon feats, but doing this is a full-round atcion anyway so you're pretty much a sitting duck.


The penalty is -10 only if you do not have any dual weapon mastery feats. With a single DWM feat, it drops to -5, with two it's -2, with all three it's -0.

Now, the fun stuff. Take a single level of the Melee Duellist PrC. Take the "Dual Weapon Flourish I" talent. Now, any time you make an attack with your primary hand, you get to attack the same target with your off-hand as a free action, solving the aforementioned mobility issues. Furthermore, as stated in the talent description, the penalties for fighting with two weapons only apply to your offhand attack, so you only need a single DWM feat and you're attacking once at full BAB, once at -5, as a standard action.

In Saga, a saber-staff is far superior to two lightsabers if only because you become nigh-impossible to disarm.

Partysan
2009-11-20, 08:28 AM
Well, as an item I'd put the saber-staff above the single, simply because it can do anything the single can do (you just activate one side) and more.

Regarding the fighting style, there will be some problems compared to a standart quarterstaff: you cannot grip at one end, making you lose the reach advantage, and it's dangerous to attack, since you could touch the backside blade while swinging the other blade forward.
About the blocking I do not think it is a problem, you don't block with the middle of a quarterstaff if you aren't in a pinch, rather you'd block with one end, either striking against the enemy's strike to stop it, or striking it to the side to hit with your blocking strike or a subsequent thrust.
However, a double sided weapon always allows for attacks to alterate sides very quickly, making it hard to parry with a single sided weapon. So, with a lot of training, I could actually see it dominating a single lightsaber. Even more so when both sides are activated and deactivated during the fight.

Talya
2009-11-20, 09:25 AM
PS(from my own martial arts experiences you generally don't want to block with the middle of a staff anyway, as it's then a purely defensive manuver that limits your ability to hit back... unless you like hockey (crosschecking FTW))

There is no reason in Star Wars you couldn't build a double lightsaber that lets you block with the handle (although you couldn't place your hands all that far apart, making it more difficult.) Use Cortosis Weave or Phrik Alloy in the construction of the handle, and the handle then blocks lightsaber attacks as well as a cortosis weave sword. (The tonfa-like Guard Shotos are built on this concept, too...it is presumed you use the entire length of the handle running along your arms to block attacks.)

Tehnar
2009-11-20, 09:42 AM
Well frankly, aside from being cool, I don't see a point to lightsabers (of any kind) in the SW universe.

First you have some sort of material that is resistant (immune?) to lightsabers. I can't recall the name, but they use it on vibroblades in KOTOR to explain why you can spar with lightsabers. So why dont people just put that stuff in armor, and presto you are immune to lightsabers

Secondly, any kind of accident with a lightsaber results in massive injuries and/or property damage. Unless you wear the above armor, but then it kind of makes lightsabers moot.


Then again I have a theory that all Jedi are evil bastards who routinely assassinate scientist's and destroy their projects so to keep a status quo on technological development. Otherwise they wouldn't be able to stay in power. The Sith are at least honest about it.

Siegel
2009-11-20, 10:10 AM
There is a Scene in the first Darth Bane book about hime fighting someone with a double sword. Bane is irritated because his enemy seems to have double the options he has because he has 2 blades. His master tells him that his enemy hasn'T that options because he still has only 1 blade to attack.

You have to learn that to battle someone with a doublesword or else you will be intimidated by the "double" amount of actions.

Tiki Snakes
2009-11-20, 10:56 AM
Well frankly, aside from being cool, I don't see a point to lightsabers (of any kind) in the SW universe.

First you have some sort of material that is resistant (immune?) to lightsabers. I can't recall the name, but they use it on vibroblades in KOTOR to explain why you can spar with lightsabers. So why dont people just put that stuff in armor, and presto you are immune to lightsabers

Simple really. If the stuff really did exist and work that way, lightsabers WOULD be made irrelevant and pointless.

Clearly, in both the real star-wars films and those nice alternate universe prequals, the Lightsaber is neither irrelevant nor pointless, therefor there is no such thing. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DisContinuity)

valadil
2009-11-20, 11:09 AM
If Jedi Academy taught me anything, it's that the Saber Staff is the noob stick. Killing people with it is ridiculously easy. The secret lies in the fact that the AI opponents block the attacks of the staff awkwardly, and...

What's that, you say? This is a discussion about how it would work outside a video game?


I saw some interesting bugs in that game. I somehow ended up with a staff saber in my right hand and a regular one in my left. It used the attack animations of dual sabers, but with extra death. Better yet was the time my character's forehead sprouted a lightsaber blade. Jedi unicorn ftw. I wish I still had that saved game.

Back to the topic, it's a horribly unrealistic weapon. The only way I could justify using it is if you telekinetically hit the off button on the lower saber to avoid gutting yourself. It would work great against regular people but other jedi could turn that blade back on.

valadil
2009-11-20, 11:11 AM
First you have some sort of material that is resistant (immune?) to lightsabers. I can't recall the name, but they use it on vibroblades in KOTOR to explain why you can spar with lightsabers. So why dont people just put that stuff in armor, and presto you are immune to lightsabers


Availability. It's been a long time since I read Star Wars novels (probably ~10 years) but if I recall correctly the material came from the scales of some sort of giant wyrm that lived in lava. You're not harvesting that stuff.

Tehnar
2009-11-20, 11:13 AM
What im saying is that a lightsaber is pointless in that universe, as they have a material resistant/immune to lightsabers, cortosis.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Cortosis

Fendalus
2009-11-20, 11:18 AM
And it says right in the first sentence of the article you linked that it's a very rare metal, and brittle, and, farther down the page, that with repeated strikes it could still be cut through with a lightsaber. And for the versatility of a lightsaber (deflecting blaster bolts, cutting through bulkheads and other obstructions easy), I don't see it being near as useless as you say it is.

Tiki Snakes
2009-11-20, 11:18 AM
What im saying is that a lightsaber is pointless in that universe, as they have a material resistant/immune to lightsabers, cortosis.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Cortosis

What I'm saying is that it's a particularly stupid and annoying part of a series that I love but that has many similarly annoying bits, that I have as a result, heavily edited mentally speaking.

Ie, there's no such thing as Cortosis Weave, and Star Wars is a stand alone trilogy with various alternate-universe spinoffs and alternate universe novels. :)

Theodoriph
2009-11-20, 11:25 AM
I saw some interesting bugs in that game. I somehow ended up with a staff saber in my right hand and a regular one in my left. It used the attack animations of dual sabers, but with extra death. Better yet was the time my character's forehead sprouted a lightsaber blade. Jedi unicorn ftw. I wish I still had that saved game.

Back to the topic, it's a horribly unrealistic weapon. The only way I could justify using it is if you telekinetically hit the off button on the lower saber to avoid gutting yourself. It would work great against regular people but other jedi could turn that blade back on.



Jedi can't switch other Jedi's lightsabers on and off.

At least, I presume they can't. It'd be such a good tactic when your opponent goes to block that you think one of them would have tried it. :smalltongue:

Jade_Tarem
2009-11-20, 11:42 AM
Jedi can't switch other Jedi's lightsabers on and off.

At least, I presume they can't. It'd be such a good tactic when your opponent goes to block that you think one of them would have tried it. :smalltongue:

There were a couple of mentions of Jedi who had their activation buttons programmed to only work if tapped in a certain sequence to prevent that kind of thing.

John Campbell
2009-11-20, 11:58 AM
PS(from my own martial arts experiences you generally don't want to block with the middle of a staff anyway, as it's then a purely defensive manuver that limits your ability to hit back... unless you like hockey (crosschecking FTW))
Nah, you block with the middle and use your opponent's weapon as the pivot point of the lever arm for your own attack. This lets you:
a) Keep pressure on his weapon, which limits his options with it and lets you sense what he's trying to do with it.
b) Attack around his weapon with basically no chance he can block with it - because he has a single point of contact right at the point of rotation, and you have two hands widely spaced on the haft, you have tremendous mechanical advantage against anything he tries to do to stop you.
c) Steal power from him to hit him with.

I get probably 90% of my in-close kills with pole this way. You can do it at range, too, though it's a bit harder. And impossible with a double-ended lightsaber, of course, because you can't fight at range at all with one of those.

Tavar
2009-11-20, 12:10 PM
From what I remember, another big draw of the double bladed lightsaber is a surprise weapon: you keep the second blade off, and when the time is right, activate it, something with the enemy is probably not expecting or prepared for.

Don't know if that actually works, I just remember reading this when looking into Darth Maul's background.

valadil
2009-11-20, 12:14 PM
Jedi can't switch other Jedi's lightsabers on and off.

At least, I presume they can't. It'd be such a good tactic when your opponent goes to block that you think one of them would have tried it. :smalltongue:

I was going on the assumption that any time a jedi has his lightsaber out, he's holding the on button in place for this reason. I think there's a lot of mutual force detection/pushing going on in a lightsaber duel and it all kind of balances out in the end.

Starbuck_II
2009-11-20, 02:33 PM
From what I remember, another big draw of the double bladed lightsaber is a surprise weapon: you keep the second blade off, and when the time is right, activate it, something with the enemy is probably not expecting or prepared for.

Don't know if that actually works, I just remember reading this when looking into Darth Maul's background.

Actually, that is a special technique from before Darth Maul. Few master it.
There are some crystals that can turn lightsabers off as well.

Asbestos
2009-11-20, 06:43 PM
How about Light Whip, practical or no?

Or that chick with the light-chucks, practical or no?

Katana_Geldar
2009-11-21, 06:55 AM
IIRC, the whole deal with lightsaber blades being pushed against each other is the two people fighting to see who has the stronger blade...and it's usually the red blade that wins in such a contest as the crystal is synthetic and designed to be stronger.

As for cortosis, I prefer the TV Tropes explaination of it: it was used so much in the KOTOR era that by the time it came around to Darth Vader's day it was rare. Any not many were using sword by then anyway.

It was a retcon for a video game flaw, I want to live to see the day that lightsabers can cut through ANYTHING like in the films. :smallbiggrin:

Anyone have some idea on how I could stat this? Particularly with weapons.

Cainen
2009-11-21, 04:24 PM
What kind of disadvantage are you even looking at if you did use one, anyways? Remember, you can opt to switch off one blade, so at worst you've got a lightsaber with a longer hilt - and a longer reach by virtue of that, too.

Fhaolan
2009-11-21, 07:11 PM
What kind of disadvantage are you even looking at if you did use one, anyways? Remember, you can opt to switch off one blade, so at worst you've got a lightsaber with a longer hilt - and a longer reach by virtue of that, too.

Depends on how easy it is to accidentally turn that off blade back on in the middle of combat. That could be... messy.

taltamir
2009-11-21, 11:47 PM
step 1: tie 3 double sided light sabers to each other.
step 2: force throw them at enemies (while spinning)
step 3: profit.

The whole concept of a light saber is retarded, just make it into a gun that shoots out saber beams.

As pointed out, the material that is immune to it (vibroblades) makes no sense at all.

And double headed weapons just plain suck, IRL, in Games, and in DnD.

DnD weapon hirarchy: two handed (ex: greatsword) > one handed > two weapons (a sword in each hand) = double headed weapon (ex: double headed sword).

And btw, those 3 feats to eliminate the penalties are 3 feats you are not using to give additional bonuses.

Katana_Geldar
2009-11-22, 12:48 AM
I agree, there are a whole bunch of other feats that you can stack if you really want an edge as a melee fighter.

AstralFire
2009-11-22, 02:33 AM
Trakata isn't about additional sabers, trakata is about using the inherent odd properties of the lightsaber - that its blade can be extended or retracted on command. And honestly, Trakata would be VICIOUS with a double-bladed saber - you fight as standard for Trakata (focus on dodges, switching the blade on/off to attack at times and bypass a parry) and every now and then, you switch on the second blade. Or better yet, switch which blade is on. That'd be just goddamned brutal.

Picture this: You parry your opponent's saber to the side, twisting their blade down... then all of a sudden you ignite the second blade, swiveling into an underhanded slash, and immediately clipping off your first blade before it would slice through your own neck.

DMfromTheAbyss
2009-11-22, 02:37 AM
I agree, there are a whole bunch of other feats that you can stack if you really want an edge as a melee fighter.

I dunno having more swings is a pretty good edge.. potentially doubling your damage output and getting another swing even if your first misses is quite competitive statistically compared to a few bonuses here or there...

Shekanzhiokan
2009-11-22, 02:43 AM
Think about what would happen if you rolled a one... There's a possibility of killing yourself off with that by mistake.

Grumman
2009-11-22, 02:47 AM
Think about what would happen if you rolled a one... There's a possibility of killing yourself off with that by mistake.
If you roll ones you're obviously not a Jedi.