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Yakk
2009-11-19, 07:45 PM
The fighter mostly remains unchanged, except instead of merely bonus feats, the fighter class features are extended.

Fighter:
1 Bonus Feat, Flexible Tactics x2
2 Bonus Feat, Fighter Talent
3 Tactical Genius 1/encounter
4 Bonus Feat, Flexible Tactics (move action)
5 Fighter's Defence
6 Bonus Feat, Flexible Tactics x3
7 Fighter's Offence
8 Bonus Feat, Flexible Tactics (swift 1/day)
9 Skill Mastery, Tactical Genius 2/encounter
10 Bonus Feat, Flexible Tactics x4
11 Physical Mastery
12 Bonus Feat, Flexible Tactics (swift 1/encounter)
13 Unstoppable
14 Bonus Feat, Flexible Tactics x5
15 Tactical Genius (always)
16 Bonus Feat, Flexible Tactics (swift)
17 Flickering Blade (1/round)
18 Bonus Feat, Flexible Tactics (free 1/encounter)
19 Tactical Genius Mastery
20 Bonus Feat, Flexible Tactics (free 1/round), Flickering Blade (2/round)

As a general rule, a fighter may take a full round action and refresh all fighter once per encounter features so they can be used again.

All of these powers are (Ex).

Flexible Tactics: At level 1, the fighter has two tactical options. Whenever the fighter gains a bonus feat, they gain a bonus feat in each tactical option. The fighter can change which tactical option is active at any time by using a standard action. For other purposes, the fighter is considered to only have the bonus feats in the active tactical option.

At level 4, switching between tactical options is a move action.

At level 6, 10 and 14, the fighter gains additional tactical options. These have as many bonus feats as the original tactical options the fighter has.

At level 8, the fighter may switch between tactical options as a swift action once per day. At level 12, the fighter can instead switch between tactical options as a swift action once per encounter. At level 16, the fighter may switch between tactical options as a swift action at any time.

At level 18, the fighter may also switch between tactical options as a free action (even not on the fighter's turn) once per encounter. And at level 20, the fighter may switch between tactical options as a free action once per round.

Goal: This prevents "every feat in every book" problem: the fighter has a collection of tactical options. At the same time, the fighter is ridiculously flexible about what set of feats are active at any one time.

Tactical Genius: Starting at level 2, the fighter may reroll a failed grab, disarm, trip, sunder, or bull rush attempt once per encounter. This increases to twice per encounter at level 9 (but only once per roll). At level 15, this ability changes to being "roll twice on every grab, disarm, trip, sunder, or bull rush attempt". At level 19, this applies to any attack roll the Fighter makes.

Fighter's Defence: Starting at level 5, all Armor and Shields that the Fighter is using is given a +1 enhancement bonus. This increases by +1 every 3 additional Fighter levels. In addition, whenever an opponent makes a grab, disarm, trip, sunder or bull rush attempt on the Fighter, they must roll twice and take the lower result.

Fighter's Offence: Starting at level 7, all Weapons used by a Fighter are given a +1 enhancement bonus. This increases by +1 every 2 additional Fighter levels.

Skill Mastery: Starting at level 9, a Fighter gains an enhancement bonus of 1/2 their fighter level when making Jump, Climb, Ride, Swim and Intimidate checks.

Physical Mastery: Starting at level 11, a Fighter gains a +2 enhancement bonus to their Strength, Dexterity and Constitution stats. This increases to +4 at level 13 and +6 at level 15. Starting at level 17, the Fighter gains a +2 inherit bonus to their Strength, Dexterity and Constitution stats. This increases by +1 for every additional fighter level. These bonuses are to be considered when the Fighter is determining if he qualifies for a feat.

Unstoppable: Starting at level 13, a Fighter who fails a save may choose to ignore the failure. They are considered to have passed the save, and take whatever consequences from that pass occur. At the end of their next turn, they must save again against the effect, and if they fail, they suffer the consequences of failure at that point (you cannot use Unstoppable on this delayed save).

In addition, a Fighter may make a full attack as a standard action starting at level 13.

Flickering Blade: A Fighter may, once per round as a free action, make a full attack action, starting at level 17. AT level 20, the Fighter may use Flickering Blade twice per round.


This fighter mixes the "stance fighter" (where the fighter has more than one set of fighter bonus feats they can switch between) with a set of features intended to make the fighter more self reliant.

Bonus feats remain in the same structure as the standard fighter (so this is a strict improvement, making it easier to port).

By level 20, this fighter has:
+6 enhancement bonus to str/dex/con
+5 inherit bonus to str/dex/con
+7 enhancement bonus with any weapon they use
+6 enhancement bonus with any armor or shield they use
Forces a reroll on anyone trying a "tactical" attack (grab, trip, bull rush, disarm, sunder)
5 sets of fighter bonus feats (all 11 of them) that they can switch between as a free action 1/round.
The ability to delay failed saving throws for a round (and roll again).
The ability to make a full attack as a standard action.
The ability to make a full attack as a free action twice/round.
Rolls all attack rolls they make and takes the best result.

Many of these benefits are back-loaded, and it starts getting seriously crazy around level 10 or so. The capstone is the 2nd free action full attack.

Power curve wise, the fighter is close to the standard fighter from level 1-4: They have two pools of feats, and can land a single trip/disarm more often than standard.

From 5-8, they get a bit stronger. They are a tad less equipment dependent than the standard fighter, get better at switching between their stances, get a 3rd stance, etc.

At level 9-12, enhancement bonuses large enough to matter (and in hard enough to get areas) start to appear. Both skills and stats gain hefty bonuses, enough to make requesting a buff from the party cleric seriously optional.

From 13-16, the Fighter starts breaking the game. They can ignore failed saves for a round, they can make full attack actions as standard actions, etc. And the enhancement bonuses they get from the class are now large enough that they can set up their equipment presuming to extract extra benefits from them (going for more properties, and less enhancement).

From 17-20, they more than double in damage output. They go from 1 full attack with a move action per round, to 3 full attacks (2 of which don't have to be on the fighter's turn!) per round. Their accuracy goes up a bit more, and they can start exploiting constantly changing between their feat sets (twice per round at level 20). Much of the 'static bonus' equipment that a standard character would purchase or get buffs from the cleric are built in to the Fighter at this point.

Despite the above rapid increase in power, the high level fighter isn't breaking the game like a full spellcaster is. On the other hand, in terms of raw melee power, this fighter is probably exceeding CoDzilla options, which is a good thing.

Thoughts?

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-11-19, 11:15 PM
Like most fighter fixes, this one doesn't really address the fighter's problems. The fighter doesn't need more numbers. He has enough numerical benefits. The only abilities I see here that give the fighter the help he needs are the switchable feats, the ability to delay failed saves, and the ability to make full attacks as a standard action; otherwise, try creating some non-numerical enhancements.

EdroGrimshell
2009-11-20, 06:24 AM
I happen to think the fighter could use some archetype style thing similar to the ranger's combat styles but gains different class features based on the archetype (guard would gain perception, vanguard would have heavy damage, etc). Your choice to alter feats goes a ways to accomplishing that.

I also like the reroll idea, it works for an expert in combat.

Ashtagon
2009-11-20, 07:07 AM
Unstoppable: Does this potentially mean a fighter who uses this could suffer the effects of a successful save AND an unsuccessful save? At best, using it means he suffers the effects of two successful saves. Great if you have evasion (which fighters don't usually get), or if hit by a save-or-die. A bit meh otherwise, bordering on useless.

The flexible attacks is interesting.

Everything else is just "I hit him. Really hard."

Yakk
2009-11-20, 02:15 PM
The "innate bonuses" that appear in the mid levels -- from 5 to 12 -- are there so that the Fighter isn't a drag on a Cleric buff-bot.

They are enhancement bonuses on purpose: they are not meant to stack with spell buffs and gear buffs.

They are not a huge increase in power -- instead, they are a reduction in dependence on the power of the rest of the group and an attempt at increased self-sufficiency buff wise. They provide the Fighter with power that is similar to how a CoDzilla buffs themselves.

Did I succeed? Does this fighter self-buff to a level that is competative with a CoDzilla self-buffing for melee from level 5 to 12?

Flexible Tactics is, as you noted, an attempt to make Fighters more than 1 trick ponies. Actually 5 trick ponies. So by level 10, the Fighter can have 4 different feat trees maxed out, and use more than one of them in a single combat (or pull out the appropriate one for a situation).

At level 13, the Fighter starts breaking the rules. This is intended -- possibly it starts happening a bit too late.

The delay-failed saves is an attempt to make save-or-lose and save-or-suck abilities less likely to take the Fighter out. The Fighter has a round, at least, to recover from the threat. Using it on a fireball is probably not worth the Fighter's bother.

The full attack as standard action makes the Fighter decently mobile (the Fighter probably still needs to get flying boots and the like to keep up with flying opponents). At 17 and 20 it then scales up to 2 and 3 full attacks per round (two of which can be saved up and used on opponents on not the fighter's turn).

Some remaining serious flaws:
1> The Fighter isn't warping the laws of the universe and doesn't have an I win button.
2> The Fighter's will save is abysmal. Might want to boost the fighter to 2 or 3 good saves?
3> "Suck regardless" and "lose" spells and effects are hard to compete with.

But an interesting question is, how does this fighter match up against the Bo9S melee characters?

Comparing this build to Pun-Pun or a Batman wizard will still come up short, so I thought I'd ask for a more reasonable requirement.

Ashtagon
2009-11-20, 02:35 PM
Did I succeed? Does this fighter self-buff to a level that is competative with a CoDzilla self-buffing for melee from level 5 to 12?

Uhh, you know CoDzilla got that name because it is widely considered the poster child for insane brokenness. And you want to re-balance the fighter against that?

My chief gripe against the innate bonuses is that they are flat bonuses that don't incur opportunity costs or tactical decision making in their use - essentially, they don't feel exciting for the player.


Flexible Tactics is, as you noted, an attempt to make Fighters more than 1 trick ponies. Actually 5 trick ponies. So by level 10, the Fighter can have 4 different feat trees maxed out, and use more than one of them in a single combat (or pull out the appropriate one for a situation).

At level 13, the Fighter starts breaking the rules. This is intended -- possibly it starts happening a bit too late.

The delay-failed saves is an attempt to make save-or-lose and save-or-suck abilities less likely to take the Fighter out. The Fighter has a round, at least, to recover from the threat. Using it on a fireball is probably not worth the Fighter's bother.

This is what I thought was the intention. You might want to look into some of the new basic classes in the Complete series of books, which have a similar feature (basically, if they fail the save, they can re-roll it one round later, assuming it's an ongoing effect of some kind).


The full attack as standard action makes the Fighter decently mobile (the Fighter probably still needs to get flying boots and the like to keep up with flying opponents). At 17 and 20 it then scales up to 2 and 3 full attacks per round (two of which can be saved up and used on opponents on not the fighter's turn).

Personally, I'd be happy to make iterative attacks (or some fixed equivalent) a standard action anyway.



Some remaining serious flaws:
1> The Fighter isn't warping the laws of the universe and doesn't have an I win button.
2> The Fighter's will save is abysmal. Might want to boost the fighter to 2 or 3 good saves?
3> "Suck regardless" and "lose" spells and effects are hard to compete with.


1) Not having an "I win" button is not a flaw. The classes that do have such buttons are the flawed ones.

2) Weak will saves is entirely within the class concept.

3) "Suck or suck" spells are generally broken anyway. The problem with these spells isn't inherent to the fighter, and re-writing the fighter will not fix them.


But an interesting question is, how does this fighter match up against the Bo9S melee characters?

I'm not sufficiently familiar with ToB to comment.


Comparing this build to Pun-Pun or a Batman wizard will still come up short, so I thought I'd ask for a more reasonable requirement.

CoDzilla is a valid comparison, but batman wizo isn't?

Chrono22
2009-11-20, 02:44 PM
Read the Tome of Battle.
Replace "initiator level" with "combat level", where combat level = your base attack bonus.
Allow fighters and barbarians to advance their stances as maneuvers as a warblade. Allow rangers, rogues, and monks to advance their maneuvers and stances as a swordsage. Clerics and paladins advance as a crusader.

Also, consider allowing bonus prepared maneuvers in regard to a character's primary physical ability score, in the same manner that casters gain bonus spells from a high mental ability score.

It is more book keeping for gishes and border types- but this does help bring warrior classes up to par with nonoptimized casters.

Yakk
2009-11-20, 03:53 PM
Uhh, you know CoDzilla got that name because it is widely considered the poster child for insane brokenness. And you want to re-balance the fighter against that?
CoDzilla without spellcasting, actually.

I'm trying to make the Fighter as good of a Fighter as a self-buffed Druid or Cleric in the 5-12 level range.

My chief gripe against the innate bonuses is that they are flat bonuses that don't incur opportunity costs or tactical decision making in their use - essentially, they don't feel exciting for the player.
*nod*. But I'm granting these flat bonuses in order to eliminate the requirement that the Fighter equip gloves of dex, belts of strength, and nads of constitution.

Instead, they get to pick any gloves, any belt, and they can pick weapons that are +1 with an interesting property. Their innate enhancement bonuses will provide all of the boring static bonuses they need without asking the cleric to cast magic vestment on them.

This is what I thought was the intention. You might want to look into some of the new basic classes in the Complete series of books, which have a similar feature (basically, if they fail the save, they can re-roll it one round later, assuming it's an ongoing effect of some kind).
I was also trying to prevent instant save-or-die (or instant save-or-suck).

Personally, I'd be happy to make iterative attacks (or some fixed equivalent) a standard action anyway.
*nod*

1) Not having an "I win" button is not a flaw. The classes that do have such buttons are the flawed ones.
Agreed. So this character doesn't have an "I win" button.

2) Weak will saves is entirely within the class concept.
Many fighter Archetypes in the sword and sorcery genre are not particularly weak-willed, or bad at dodging fireballs.

And by giving non-magic classes uniformly good saves, it helps mitigate the difference between magic using classes and non-magic using classes. In a world of magic, the 20th level character who doesn't embrace magic instead learns how to deal with it.

Now, the difference is only a +6 to will and reflex save, so it won't shake the foundations of the game regardless.

3) "Suck or suck" spells are generally broken anyway. The problem with these spells isn't inherent to the fighter, and re-writing the fighter will not fix them.
Spells or effects. They are too common in 3e to just wish them away. So I tried to mitigate them.

CoDzilla is a valid comparison, but batman wizo isn't?
As mentioned, CoDzilla without spellcasting beyond self-buffs was the bar I was aiming for in the 5-12 range.

Read the Tome of Battle.
Replace "initiator level" with "combat level", where combat level = your base attack bonus.
The Warblade etc from ToB already implements your version.

I was attempting to make a Fighter that wouldn't be that hard to retrofit an existing Fighter (PC or NPC) with. It also plays somewhat like the existing Fighter; it is just better at it.

Chrono22
2009-11-21, 06:11 AM
The Warblade etc from ToB already implements your version.

I was attempting to make a Fighter that wouldn't be that hard to retrofit an existing Fighter (PC or NPC) with. It also plays somewhat like the existing Fighter; it is just better at it.
Not really. They only advance classes that have multiclassed into one of the base classes in the ToB. And then, only at a half-level progression.
I'm recommending that you give all combat-primary or gish classes access to them on a 1/1 basis, according to base attack bonus.
A big power boost, and both the ToB classes and the core combat classes remain useful in relation to eachother.