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View Full Version : Trying to work polymorph and monk into a 20th level build.



Mtg_player_zach
2009-11-20, 12:50 AM
So far I have wizard 7, monk 13(the monk is replacable). I'm using spells, feats, and items to increase my caster level to 15th so that my polymorph can hit the maximum number of hit dice. I'm thinking of hydra(other polymorphs that would take advantage of my monk levels would be appreciated as well), and using the monk's unarmed combat and size bonus with the new large amounts of heads to a fun effect. I don't know exactly how my attack bonus would work though so I need some help there.
We are playing on saturday. It's epic level, good amount of party members but I'm afraid the DM is going to throw some REALLY tough stuff at us, it's also a one shot campaign. I have a few feats,some spells, and 800,000 to work with. Thanks for any help.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-20, 12:52 AM
An Orange Ioun Stone and a Ring of Arcane Might both increase caster level by 1, and they stack.

The reserve feat Minor Shapeshift is great for a gish and increases caster levell for a polymorph spell by 1.

I'd go Monk2/Wizard4/Spellsword1/Elditch Knight1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight7

Your BaB will be +17/+12/+7/+2, and you get 9th level spells.

I'd recommend Enlightened Fist, but it just isn't that good.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-20, 12:54 AM
Epic level, spellcasting>>>>anything else. And Monk damage is terrible Epic(also before Epic) due to the chart not advancing after 20.

Even before Epic, spellcasters should not multiclass if at all possible. And Monk is a fairly weak thing to multiclass into. If you must, I think there's a dual-progression Monk/Wizard class in Complete Arcane that would be helpful.

BobVosh
2009-11-20, 01:01 AM
An Orange Ioun Stone and a Ring of Arcane Might both increase caster level by 1, and they stack.

The reserve feat Minor Shapeshift is great for a gish and increases caster levell for a polymorph spell by 1.

I'd go Monk2/Wizard4/Spellsword1/Elditch Knight1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight10

Do this. You may need a level of fighter (I think abjurant champ and eldritch knight both require martial weapons)

However defiantly replace monk with as many levels of enlightened fist or other classes.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-20, 01:04 AM
Do this. You may need a level of fighter (I think abjurant champ and eldritch knight both require martial weapons)


Spellsword!

Mtg_player_zach
2009-11-20, 01:21 AM
Thanks for the suggestions they are pretty good, but how does it work with say polymorphing into a hydra. Would I still be able to "punch" things as a hydra? And are there any ways to get it to where I could use spells while I'm a hydra (/insert worthy polymorph here)?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-20, 01:24 AM
You can either use the hydra's natural attack, your unarmed strike, or a full attack with your unarmed strike followed up by a natural attack routine, if I recall correctly.

Spells you will want are Nerveskitter, Enlarge Person, Fist of Stone, Greater Magic Weapon, and Greater Magic Wallop.

Mtg_player_zach
2009-11-20, 01:52 AM
If I were to polymorph into something that could use spells would I be able to use my spellcasting abilities while polymorphed? Also would Greater Magic Weapon actually work on natural attacks such as my unarmed attacks/hydra's bites?

I'm still looking through everything you all have suggested too, by the way. Thanks a ton.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-20, 01:54 AM
Spellcasting is available when polymorphed into a form that has mouths and hands.

Mtg_player_zach
2009-11-20, 03:03 AM
Does empower work on Polymorph? Like I would be allowed more hit dice that way?

elliott20
2009-11-20, 03:11 AM
may I recommend replace monk with unarmed swordsage focused on tiger claw and diamond mind instead? does dancing mongoose + girallion flesh rip + time stands still + polymorph + all those other enhancements work together?

BobVosh
2009-11-20, 03:20 AM
Spellsword!

Ooo, you sneaky, sneaky fist! Struck me down like the fist of an angry Pharaoh!


Does empower work on Polymorph? Like I would be allowed more hit dice that way?

Nope. Only variable dice effects in the spell. There isn't any.

PinkysBrain
2009-11-20, 07:13 AM
Just get access to shapechange, it's polymorph on steroids. Lets say this is core ... fighter 2/wizard 8/eldritch knight 10. This gets you BAB+16, which is always nice for a martial character. Take a monk level at 21 if you really want it (or just stay a fighter with the IUS feat).

As for punching things while polymorphed, yes it's possible and you get all your natural attacks as secondary attacks at max attack bonus -5 with 1/2 strength to damage. Not all DMs will like kung-fu'ing hydras though. Hydra isn't a great shapechange target though even in a core only game.

In a non core game I'd go for fighter 1/wizard 4/enlightened fist 9/spellsword 1/abjurant champion 5. It won't have BAB+16 like Pharaoh's Fist build ... but enlightened fist does have one trick up it's sleeve which works very well for a monk type character ... Hold Ray + Persistent Spell Flower (lets you add disintegrate once for each forelimb for instance, works even better with forms with forelimbs with claws ... since you get those claw attacks for free as secondary natural attacks).

If you really want BAB+16 AND hold ray you have to delay access to shapechange for a bit. Fighter 1/wizard 4/enlightened fist 8/spellsword 1/abjurant champion 5/eldritch knight 1.

Mtg_player_zach
2009-11-20, 11:38 AM
Does going beyond colossal size further increase my damage or does being bigger than colossal get redundant?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-20, 11:38 AM
It should increase along with your size.


Ooo, you sneaky, sneaky fist! Struck me down like the fist of an angry Pharaoh!


You asked for it.
http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs24/f/2007/315/d/0/__MIND_CRUSH___by_KeroTheHetetic.png

Eldariel
2009-11-20, 01:14 PM
Does going beyond colossal size further increase my damage or does being bigger than colossal get redundant?

Colossal+ and such are listed in the Epic Level Handbook. It's just a simple size progression as far as damage goes though. And most Polymorph-effects cap at Colossal.


http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs24/f/2007/315/d/0/__MIND_CRUSH___by_KeroTheHetetic.png

Catfolk Yami?

Sir Giacomo
2009-11-20, 01:15 PM
Monk is a good choice when polymorphing is possible.
You could also go monk 20 in this case, and with the otherwise-not-that-shining ability perfect self have yourself permanently morphed into a planetar or cornugon (depends on your taste and alignment).
Grab a ring of spell storing for rightuous might and have effectively gargantuan size for damage, or 8d8 base damage per hit. Add more of the many size increases in non-core and you can get around a 1000 dmg/ round with a flurry of blows. (the MM improved natural attack progression woud cap the size increases of the monk at 24d8 per hit base damage)

Have fun in tomorrow's game
- Giacomo

Mtg_player_zach
2009-11-20, 02:12 PM
What is there that can increase my save DC's? And to increase my ability to overcome SR? And is there anything that can bypass say an energy immunity? Lastly, I need some feat recommendations.

Mtg_player_zach
2009-11-20, 02:14 PM
Keep in mind for the feats that I will have both spellcasting and melee ability.

Glimbur
2009-11-20, 02:19 PM
And to increase my ability to overcome SR?

The best way to overcome SR with as few caster levels as you seem to be planning on is to cast spells that don't allow SR. This means lots of battlefield control, mostly spells from the Conjuration school. Or buffs, buffs are good too.

Mtg_player_zach
2009-11-20, 02:33 PM
Yeah, a current plan is to buff up during a time stop, teleport next to the boss, use wraithstrike (silent spell, still spell) while a hydra; attack with my monk attacks (superpowerful hydra kicks ftw!) followed by the hydra's natural attack progression (-5 but I just have to beat their touch AC I think) for huge damage. When polymorph ends I'll revert to casting disintigrates and the like.

Any flaws?

Mtg_player_zach
2009-11-20, 02:35 PM
Of course that would use two of my 8 feats for still and silent spell. I still need recommendations for the rest of my feats its the last thing left to do for this character.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-11-20, 04:26 PM
Monk 1/ Sor/Wiz 4/ Enlightened Fist 5/ Master of the East Wind 10: It gets 16th level Monk abilities and 18th level spellcasting, plus it can boost those with a Monk's Belt/Tattoo, Practiced Spellcaster, etc.

Mtg_player_zach
2009-11-22, 03:00 AM
The character worked really well. I could do 500 damage in one round pretty easily. One fight included two dragons for our party to kill (5 level 20 party members) and I timestopped cast my spells and teleported behind the Great Wyrm dragon. It hit me for most of my health (thank god for stoneskin) and grappled me (stupid grapple, couldn't out grapple a great wyrm dragon unfortunately) and pinned me while the rest of the party took out the (smaller) other dragon. The party killed that one and started killing my dragon (still grappling me) and the dragon killed me eventually (DM metagamed knowing that the potential of my character was greater than that of an ordinary hydra). But I served my purpose confining a Great Wyrm dragon to target me and only me while the party killed it. I was true resurrected with a rod we had. Going to fight an infernal next week (hopefully my 600 damage before it kills me will be enough for the party to live). Thanks for the help guys.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-22, 03:37 AM
It looks ok. The 600 damage is a bit disappointing - it's still in the triple digits, after all - but I think you'll be able to do it.

Mtg_player_zach
2009-11-22, 03:45 AM
It's a fun character, I thoroughly enjoy the idea of a mage punching things and it hurting them a lot. It is highly susceptible to being grappled though (stupid dragons). I don't think I'll be able to survive the next fight, I think the party's only hope of success is reliant on me hitting the thing for huge damage (followed by it doing huge damage to me probably killing me). Concept is fun, but I find myself wanting to punch things a lot more than I want to burn them with disintegrate.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-22, 03:46 AM
It is highly susceptible to being grappled though (stupid dragons).

Oh, that's easy. Either cast the third level spell Heart of Water from the Complete Mage, or buy a Ring of Freedom of Movement.

Cespenar
2009-11-22, 04:43 AM
Doesn't Enlightened Fist let you use multiple touch spells as part of your unarmed full attack? And later, the ability to change ray spells into touch spells?

A monk 2/sorcerer 8/enlightened fist 10 with no cheese at all can supposedly have a minimum of 7 attacks per turn (TWF, etc.) and a 16th level caster progression. Giving up 7 stunning fists, he could cast 6 Maximized and 1 Empowered Enervations, which equals to 27.75 negative levels. If you'd prefer to do it with damaging rays, you could probably end up with hundreds of d6 in one turn too, I guess.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-11-22, 10:26 AM
Doesn't Enlightened Fist let you use multiple touch spells as part of your unarmed full attack? And later, the ability to change ray spells into touch spells?

A monk 2/sorcerer 8/enlightened fist 10 with no cheese at all can supposedly have a minimum of 7 attacks per turn (TWF, etc.) and a 16th level caster progression. Giving up 7 stunning fists, he could cast 6 Maximized and 1 Empowered Enervations, which equals to 27.75 negative levels. If you'd prefer to do it with damaging rays, you could probably end up with hundreds of d6 in one turn too, I guess.

No, you can only cast one touch spell/round, but the action is free with a full attack. It has the same limitation of once/round as Stunning Fist, though you could potentially use the feat Rapid Stunning in CW to do it more often each round. If your first attack misses and fails to deliver the touch, you'd still be holding the charge for the rest of your attacks, or if you have a touch spell that can be delivered multiple times such as Produce Flame or Chill Touch, it would be delivered on every attack until it runs out.

Prime32
2009-11-22, 12:02 PM
I would have gone psionic for this. Monk 2/Psychic warrior 18 with the Tashalatora and Expanded Knowledge (metamorphosis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/metamorphosis.htm)) feats. Or maybe ardent instead of psychic warrior if they get metamorphosis.

If you substitute psion (egoist) you'll get access to metamorphosis at character level 9 rather than 12 (and eventually greater metamorphosis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/metamorphosisGreater.htm) at lv19), but your BAB will be lower. You could take levels in slayer, but they won't advance your monk abilities. You won't need a feat to gain access to the power, but you'll need Carmendine Monk (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Carmendine_Monk) or Kung Fu Genius (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Kung_Fu_Genius) to reduce MAD.

Lastly you could use the war mind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/warMind.htm) PrC (don't use psionic fist - Tashalatora renders it pointless).

PinkysBrain
2009-11-22, 12:43 PM
No, you can only cast one touch spell/round, but the action is free with a full attack.
As I said though, Spell Flower can be easily persisted ... so at least for the first round you can get a lot more.

Cespenar
2009-11-22, 03:05 PM
No, you can only cast one touch spell/round, but the action is free with a full attack. It has the same limitation of once/round as Stunning Fist, though you could potentially use the feat Rapid Stunning in CW to do it more often each round. If your first attack misses and fails to deliver the touch, you'd still be holding the charge for the rest of your attacks, or if you have a touch spell that can be delivered multiple times such as Produce Flame or Chill Touch, it would be delivered on every attack until it runs out.

I read it again, and it doesn't say that it's limited to one spell/round. Apart from guessing the RAI, where do you get that idea, exactly?

P.S. This will probably end in me missing some line in somewhere, but let's go at it for the time being.

Ramza00
2009-11-22, 04:52 PM
A Totemist 2/Wizard 3/Soulcaster 10/Archmage 4/Warshaper 1 would be much simpler and still cast as a 17th level wizard at level 20. You are not punching things with your fists but instead smashing things with your hydra heads.

24 attacks with hydra
1d10 base
Improved Natural Attack
2d8
Totem Avatar Shoulder bind
3d8
Warshaper 1 Morphic Weapons
4d8
2 size increases with a chained greater mighty wallop and arcane reach via Archmage (bite attacks are bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing)
8d8
Sharptooth Spell (Draconomicon)
12d8

24*(12*(1 to 8 average 4.5) plus your full str modifier plus any additional bonuses due to arcane strike+5 due to greater magic weapon)=24*(12*(1 to 8)+9 Str+5 Greater Magic Weapon)=624 min, 2640 max, 1632 average. This is before arcane strike sacrificing 10 spell levels, with arcane strike 864 min, 3600 max, 2232 average.

Throw in a bard cohort who does both bardic music and dragonfire inspiration and then it gets even sillier.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-22, 05:09 PM
Going monk/psychic warrior or Carmendine Monk/egoist is my suggestion as well.

That, or just egoist/slayer with a monk's belt.

Remember that you can share your powers with your psicrystal (and can use fission), meaning you can get four bodies out there gnawing on things.