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Silvertongue
2009-11-20, 04:08 PM
I've tried to DM before. I try to start just as the DMG says, and my PCs end up too powerful and destroy things. I've tried to start the PCs out as average, maybe put them in jail or something. They get pissed. You've probably been there before. So while I was trying to sleep last night I had a revalation. I realized, they can start out normal without too much restriction in what they can do.

My plan is this:
-the players start out with average human scores, maximum at 12 or 13(whichever you feel more comfortable), and make sure they've got a 9 or two in there somewhere.
-Instead of gaining ability scores every 4 levels, every level.
-of course, that could result in upwards of 30 in an ability, so there must be restrictions. I was thinking of allowing once every two levels on one ability. Then they also spread out the rest to what they need(I know theres even more flaws there...)

Then again, factoring race in and everything... I don't know.

I actually talked to one of my problem players, and he thought it sounded like a good idea with some revision, so I want to hear your opinions.

Tyndmyr
2009-11-20, 04:13 PM
Stats are certainly not the only source of power, and as far as ways to break the game go, I'd actually put them relatively far down the list.

When you say "PCs get too powerful and destroy things", what are you referring to? Power gain is pretty normal, and so is destroying things, so we need a bit more detail here to make any useful suggestions.

RagnaroksChosen
2009-11-20, 04:20 PM
I've tried to DM before. I try to start just as the DMG says, and my PCs end up too powerful and destroy things. I've tried to start the PCs out as average, maybe put them in jail or something. They get pissed. You've probably been there before. So while I was trying to sleep last night I had a revalation. I realized, they can start out normal without too much restriction in what they can do.

My plan is this:
-the players start out with average human scores, maximum at 12 or 13(whichever you feel more comfortable), and make sure they've got a 9 or two in there somewhere.
-Instead of gaining ability scores every 4 levels, every level.
-of course, that could result in upwards of 30 in an ability, so there must be restrictions. I was thinking of allowing once every two levels on one ability. Then they also spread out the rest to what they need(I know theres even more flaws there...)

Then again, factoring race in and everything... I don't know.

I actually talked to one of my problem players, and he thought it sounded like a good idea with some revision, so I want to hear your opinions.

If you want a gritty style game make it 28 point buy. Allow any race/class combos and just cap the game off at a certain level...


Large recommendation is to look into E6 (aka epic 6)

RandomNPC
2009-11-20, 06:09 PM
first of all i'm intruiged by ths epic 6 idea and wish to learn more.

also, um, i duno. i just want to learn about this epic 6.

Glimbur
2009-11-20, 06:30 PM
In essence, e6 means you stop gaining levels after 6th. This means all those mean and nasty 4th and higher level spells simply don't exist. Instead of levels, every 2500 XP you get another feat. There are feats to Raise Dead and such, I'm not sure of the details there.

Tyndmyr
2009-11-20, 06:32 PM
e6 is pretty cool. Basically, you get to level 6. Then, instead of leveling again, you get a feat. Thus, progression slows down heavily at level 6, and power levels are more consistant.

I believe it does involve the addition of quite a few more feats, though, since each player is obviously going to want quite a few, and some things of higher level, like raise dead, are really, really handy.

You could probably do this at any level, really, but six is nice because the classes are pretty well balanced there.

erikun
2009-11-20, 06:50 PM
Without knowing the details, it sounds like by "destroy stuff" you mean the players are capable of dominating encounters and ruining plots, generally with spells. This is actually pretty common with D&D, as most higher level spells do tend to dominate whatever they're thrown against. (sometimes literally)

Probably the best solution is to just not run standard D&D. :smalltongue: E6 is option, where levels stop at 6th and everyone just gets feats after that. You could try running a no-magic campaign, or a low-magic where only partial casters (bard, adept) are around.

I don't think reducing the starting stats and increasing stat gain will help. Most of the "broken" abilities are at higher level, while most of the character death occurs at low level. Making it harder to survive at low level but more awesome at high level will just make your players want to skip low level more.

Silvertongue
2009-11-20, 07:26 PM
Thanks for the advice everyone, I'm gonna look into that.

However, the problem's not only with spellcasting, I also have gotten barbarians with 24 rage strength at lvl 1, easily takes out any commoner, and my guards are too tough for some of the party and easily taken out by others.

I guess the main problem is party balance.

Gamerlord
2009-11-20, 07:30 PM
Why are they attacking commoners? Don't tell me you are letting them run evil chars!

Exactly how much experience do you have with DMing? I made this mistake when I was a newbie, along with several other balancing mistakes.

HailDiscordia
2009-11-20, 07:34 PM
If the party is killing everything that they come across, make something much tougher than them and have it kill the party. I know that seems a bit much, but if everyone is level 1 or 2 it's not that big of a deal to have a TPK. I guarantee you that when you start up the next game with the same players they will think twice.

Also, try to cater to their motives as players. If they are chaotic and selfish make the quest about getting gold rather than helping the town.

erikun
2009-11-20, 07:43 PM
However, the problem's not only with spellcasting, I also have gotten barbarians with 24 rage strength at lvl 1, easily takes out any commoner, and my guards are too tough for some of the party and easily taken out by others.
It sounds like you're just getting used to the balance of the D&D system. Honestly, a half-orc barbarian will be one-shot killing anything with a CR 1 or less; that's what they're good for. If they players are getting antsy and want to kill stuff, send them off into a dungeon with stuff to kill. Don't make them wander the pattyfields full of annoying farmers.

And make your guards level 5-6, in full plate and tower shields, and in groups of half a dozen. Give them saps to subdue the PCs if they get rowdy. Even 24 Strength isn't going to punch through 22 AC and 30+ HP before getting knocked unconcious.

ken-do-nim
2009-11-20, 07:45 PM
Run 2E instead. (I'm serious).

Tequila Sunrise
2009-11-20, 07:56 PM
I guess the main problem is party balance.
3e is unbalanced. So unless you want to play a different game, you'll have to learn how to give each PC something to destroy. The barbarian slaughters guards, the bard charms wenches and local lords, the wizard...well the wizard rocks just about any house with the right spell. It's all about giving each player a chance to use their favorite shtick against a monster or NPC with poor defenses against that shtick.

'Course, if one player is a super-optimizer and another is clueless, it would help if someone helped the clueless guy actualize his shtick.

Gamerlord
2009-11-20, 08:11 PM
It's only unbalanced if you're trying to power game, if you don't try to power game, everything runs smoothly.

Boci
2009-11-20, 08:17 PM
It's only unbalanced if you're trying to power game, if you don't try to power game, everything runs smoothly.

Not quite. If one player is a ranger and the other a wizard there is going to be some difference powerwise even if neither is trying to power game.

Gamerlord
2009-11-20, 08:20 PM
Yes, but it won't be out-of-control chaos.

Gralamin
2009-11-20, 08:41 PM
It's only unbalanced if you're trying to power game, if you don't try to power game, everything runs smoothly.

Unless the DM uses the abilities of monsters by RAW. And since most monsters by RAW have a good deal of brokenly powerful Spell like abilities, they can easily destroy a group unless the group is optimized. It isn't so much "running smoothly" as the DM constantly having to hold the monsters back.

desmond1323
2009-11-20, 08:49 PM
Yeah, the biggest thing needed here is more detail.

What does the party consist of?

What is the party doing?

What is the party fighting?

Hard to give you tips unless we see what's going wrong specifically.

Gamerlord
2009-11-21, 11:28 AM
Unless the DM uses the abilities of monsters by RAW. And since most monsters by RAW have a good deal of brokenly powerful Spell like abilities, they can easily destroy a group unless the group is optimized. It isn't so much "running smoothly" as the DM constantly having to hold the monsters back.

I'm talking about party balance, not monster balance.

jiriku
2009-11-21, 11:53 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, silver, but it sounds like you're having two issues:

(1) The party as a whole is crushing your low-level encounters.

(2) Some players have characters that suck, and if you use stronger encounters, those characters are likely to be killed by things that barely challenge the better characters.


I have had many DMs who struggled with these same things, and one single DM who did not struggle. This was his secret:

(1) His encounters generally consisted of lots of relatively weak monsters, using clever tactics and ablities that synergize well (e.g. a spellcaster casting darkness, plus melee characters with blindsight or the blind-fight feat). These encounters were more dangerous than the sum of their parts, but each individual monster was unlikely to one-shot a PC.

(2) He would encourage the better players to help the novice players with character construction, and his monsters would preferentially target the most dangerous (i.e. highly optimized) characters.

bosssmiley
2009-11-21, 01:20 PM
I've tried to DM before. I try to start just as the DMG says, and my PCs end up too powerful and destroy things. I've tried to start the PCs out as average, maybe put them in jail or something. They get pissed. You've probably been there before. So while I was trying to sleep last night I had a revelation. I realized, they can start out normal without too much restriction in what they can do.

"3d6, in order." Problem solved.

Ignore the whining, that's just the sound of weakness and entitlement leaving your players. :smallamused:

Gamerlord
2009-11-21, 01:27 PM
And do not tolerate weakness, let the dice roll where they may, if they go to the mountain where the great wyrm red dragon lurks, let them die, they ignored your warnings. They killed a town? A platoon of the king's finest knights hunt them down.

Tyndmyr
2009-11-21, 08:38 PM
Thanks for the advice everyone, I'm gonna look into that.

However, the problem's not only with spellcasting, I also have gotten barbarians with 24 rage strength at lvl 1, easily takes out any commoner, and my guards are too tough for some of the party and easily taken out by others.

I guess the main problem is party balance.

This happens. Not everyone in the party will be equally good at everything. The rogue is not supposed to be strong and tanking town guards or slaying all the commoners. However, mad strength, boosted by rage is pretty much what barbarians do. 24 str while raging is not unusual at all. This simply means that his primary stat was str(quite reasonable), and he has a +2 racial.

The game isn't broken, this is normal.

Just be aware that since everyone has their specialties, you need to give them a variety of circumstances to let each of them have some time to shine.

Eldariel
2009-11-21, 09:10 PM
There are probably other answers. While E6 is great, a normal game doesn't have to be a "destroy"-fest either. There's always a greater power; the PCs, no matter their level, are always second to someone. With this in mind, few questions on things that might cause the game to seem broken:


- How exactly are they destroying things? Are they destroying level appropriate encounters and quest adversaries or everything?

If they're attacking everything, reprisal should be swift. In a world with Diviners, missing people will be accounted for swiftly and the culprits will be brought to justice, or more likely according to D&D mentality, outright slain. If they act Stupid Evil, don't silk glove it; the local order-keeping force should dispatch a strong unit (if they're actually killing people) to dispose of them. More than likely, this means they all die. Causality makes people play fair.


- Are their ability scores normal or somehow inflated in spite of being rolled on 4d6b3? If they're rolled, make sure the stats are realistic. The Elite Array is 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8. That should be about the average of rolling the dice (by reroll rules, a bit better than that). If they're notably higher, there's something wrong with the rolling, such as excessive rerolling or such.

If rolling ability scores causes problems, you can just use Point Buy (as per DMG); everyone has the same amount of stats even if their distributions are totally different. While stats aren't the biggest thing to break the game, they can make appropriate encounters too easy simply because the party's numbers are 1-3 too high across the board. MM is made with Elite Array in mind. If their stats are high, consider empowering the adversaries with probably more numbers (and elite individuals with similar stats to the PCs).

Note that the impact of stats decreases as the game progresses, and an Orc Barbarian with 24 Str while Raging is impressive, it's not really broken. He can still only attack one guy a turn, and only Rage once per day. Rest of the time he's still impressive, but just a frontliner probably more vulnerable than average to ranged attacks and Will/Ref-save targeting spells, meaning he can deal a lot of damage, but in turn is quite an easy target.

And it's really his time in the sun; things will get harder and harder for melee types as the game progresses and the stats become less and less important as feats and magic + base bonuses take over.

- Is their equipment appropriate or somehow inflated? There are guidelines on about how much wealth a PC of a given level should have. If they're notably over that, you should use stronger opponents.

- Do they play their classes on basic level or in proficient manner? That is, how much do they optimize? 'cause if the class users are proficient, you should try for a similar optimization level with monsters; otherwise they'll be left in dust (and even then).


Also, check your own expectations and perceptions. Things that are often true for D&D:
- Fights against equal-sized groups (say, 4 characters on each side) tend to be short in rounds. It doesn't usually take longer than 3-4 rounds to dispose of an equivalent challenge not specifically built for hardiness. I've noticed some new DMs think the fights should be longer. This may make it seem like the players are having it easier than they are.
- PCs should be expected to win. CR is designed thusly that the PCs are heavy favorites against equal CR opponents. If you want even challenges, well, PCs are going to die a lot which makes for great problems; to do so you should aim for CR about 4 higher than the party (for a party of 4), which is about a 50/50 fight. But don't do that; just remember that equal CR doesn't mean the monster is a real threat in the sense that it might kill the party.
- The PCs are above average. An average Human vs. a PC should be in the PC's advantage. An exceptional Human vs. a PC could very well be even. As such, your average Commoner isn't quite as strong as your average PC. Your average Townsguard isn't as strong as an equivalent-level PC, but due to serving in Townsguard, isn't probably just a level 1 Warrior (most likely, people admitted to a guard have at least some experience; 2nd level seems average with 1st for really green ones and 3rd-4th for veterans) so they should be a match or even stronger than level 1 PCs.

And few notes on combat:
- Enemies should use tactics too. Standing in the open and running at the opponent is not a very impressive tactic and much below the level even animals are capable of. Sneak attacks, traps and such are basic fare in any kind of combat and any creatures that often engage in combat should seek out any advantages they can get.
- If the party initiates most of the conflicts (attacking random people, fighting guards, etc.), remember that the City Guard generally has a lot more men than the party has people as do just about any organizations so randomally attacking anyone where anyone else is present is like to be a horrible idea.
- While it may seem like a chore to start with, try to generate terrain for each fight. That matters a lot and often favors the enemies since often PCs are on the offense and as such, the opponents have had the chance to plan their defense. In a violent world like the common D&D settings, most savage groups, animals and military units should be relatively prepared for combat at all times (at least outside cities, and even there one does well to look their backs).


And the interparty balance is really kept by everyone knowing their role and thus not assuming that anyone should be as good in melee as the raging Barbarian.

Each class has a fairly clear role and some abilities beyond then, but specialist shines in their field the most, generally. This is especially true on level 1.

Also, stats matter the most on level 1, so somewhat even stats really help to keep it balanced, but again, their relevance lessens as the game progresses so it's a problem that eventually fixes itself (though party balance will never be perfect in 3.5).