Deconstructing The Old "Down The Rabbit Hole" Plot

[Leliel]

Well, an idea of mine for 4E is a game where the PCs are inhabitants of good old Earth-the mundane one-who find their way into an alternate world where magic is quite real, thank you, and they become it's heroes, yadda yadda, I'm sure you've heard this story before...

Except having the soul of an author, I want to examine what it would really mean to have a dual life as the boring old people of mundane Earth and the interesting celebrities of Insert Grandiose World Name here.

In other words, I want to perform what TV Tropes calls a Deconstruction. What would really happen if we found ourselves in a fantastic world where we were the paragons of truth, justice, and all that jazz. How a person would and probably could abuse it, the psychological strain of dealing with two different lives, the inevitable belief that the person you are in that world is the "real" one...

One of the things I thought of is that the reason Earthlings are so powerful in the other world is that the man who enters it is not actually the man who left Earth-rather, it's the "Imago", the ideal self-the person you unconsciously compare yourself, the person you want to be (and that's a real psychological concept too). Of course, there's a problem with this-the more and more powerful the imago gets, the less and less the true self becomes-gradually, the person who throws herself into the Imago role because she thinks her life sucks finds that her mundane life now sucks because her Imago absorbed all her good qualities.

Of course, I am a hopeless idealist, so I say that a person who admits both the Imago and the mundane are two halves of the same person and it's stupid to deny one of them gets around this, but still...

Other than that, how would you take apart all the cliches about being trapped in a fantastic world?

[Saph]

Seriously, Leliel, you spend way too much time worrying about "cliches" and "deconstructions". :smallwink:

Whose cliches are we talking about here? The "down the rabbit hole" plot has been done in hundreds of different forms, everything from heroes to villains to nobodies. If you try to "deconstruct" one set of cliches, you'll just end up copying another set. For instance, your current plot is a very close match to Michael Ende's Neverending Story - though that revolved around wishes and memories rather than a physical deterioration, which I think ended up working better.

Don't try to be original by "deconstructing cliches". Just try to tell the truth. If you do that well, you'll end up being original without even thinking about it.

[jmbrown]

Frankly, any real person suddenly thrust into the fantastic situation Alice or any other "mundane" human would go through would freak out. Children might have a better chance of comprehending because their minds still don't understand the line between reality and fantasy, but if you tossed one of us rational, sane adults into Weird Fantasy Land we'd probably crap our pants the moment a talking 3' rabbit with knickers and a pocket watch went running by.

Suspension of disbelief aside, one of the biggest issues with being delusion is the blur between what's real and fake. You should draw parallels between the fantasy world and the real world. Those card soldiers they just cut in half? Policemen trying to stop the 'lunatics' who were batting old people with pink yard flamingos.

If you make the distinction between realms clear, you should make withdrawal an issue. Lets face it, if we had the power to fly freely, why would we ever walk? In effect, the mundane humans want power. Every moment they spend in their real, mundane lives causes them intense pain.

And now comes the kicker; most people have dependents or responsibilities. We go to school to get a good job. We work to pay the hospital bill for our sick mothers. We're the boss of a small business and a wrong decision will get you bought out by the other share holders and tossed to the street.

To put everything together, the fantasy world doesn't always work. The characters want it, they crave it, but it doesn't just open for them whenever they feel like stomping heads in.

Of course, the biggest difficulty of all is getting players to actively participate. If you made me roleplay the boring life I sit through everyday I'd twiddle my thumbs until you say "You jump into the rabbit hole now lets start adventuring!"

[Leliel]

Of course, the biggest difficulty of all is getting players to actively participate. If you made me roleplay the boring life I sit through everyday I'd twiddle my thumbs until you say "You jump into the rabbit hole now lets start adventuring!"

Ah, but therein lies the point.

:smalltongue:

Seriously, that kind of attitude is what I want to examine. If you found a portal to a fantasy world where you were a hero, what would you do with your life?

By "Down the Rabbit Hole", I mean that plot in which a bunch of people find their way to another world where they become heroes. They're usually trapped there, but for purposes of the plot, I'll state that they can go back and forth between Earth and the Other World.

[Tyndmyr]

Imagine the forgetting to walk, Roy style, upon your return. =)

[erikun]

I'm not quite sure what you're asking. I mean, I've played in games with the premise of "you suddenly find yourself in another world with magical powers." I've also played in (freeform) games where the characters are inside each others heads, and are capable of reshaping reality to deal with/fight off their own psychoses. In that reguard, Saph is right - it has been done before, although that isn't necessarily a bad thing.

On the other hand, it sounds like you want to psychoanalyze your players as they're playing a fantasy game. If that's the case, I think there's one big step you're missing: You are not observing them in their standard environment, so to speak. You're not there while they go to work, pick up groceries, take care of kids, and wash the car. You're there afterwards, when they want to relax and (presumably) do something different.

As Jmbrown pointed out, if I just spent all day mowing the lawn and washing the dishes, I won't want to sit down at a table and pretend to mow the lawn and wash the dishes. I'd want to fly around and explore foreign worlds and see what's behind that mountain. That doesn't necessarily mean that if I had the power, I'd cast off all responsibility - just that if I had the power, I may go flying off after taking care of my responsibilities.

Actually, a superhero game may be a better way to analyze this.

[desmond1323]

I suppose, in a lot of ways, it depends on how one views the real world to begin with...as jmbrown said, some people--those more concentrated in being surrounded by facts, provable truths, and accepted forms of what is "real"--would freak out in a fantasy world...believing that they were being duped or were hallucinating in some form or fashion.

Those who start off disillusioned with this world might be much more accepting...or those on the other spectrum, who believe the world to be more than hard facts. Or, as jmbrown pointed out again, someone who doesn't have a fully developed sense of what is "real", ie children or those with development blocks.

Myself? If I found some way to enter a fantasy world...well, I'd be all for it. Perhaps it is just insanity...though one often thinks if you can wonder about your sanity, surely you must be sane...or maybe it is real, and I really am crossing over somewhere else. Either way...and this sounds trite and cliche, but I don't have much connection to the world I'm in now. I've always related to fantasy worlds much better.

Personally, I have a certain need to be useful to people around me...I also have a distinct need to uphold my own moral codes and ensure that the world around me goes as well as it can for those who deserve it....what better way is this acted out than protecting the common folk from rampaging monstrosities?

A world where real evils can be combated and defeated if you try hard enough? That's a world I can get my head around.

Not so much this world called "real".

So what would I do? I guess I'd find it fairly easy to abandon most things here...the only real challenge would be giving up on my friends. That's something I can't abandon, no matter what. And in the end, that'd be the only thing to keep me here...to leave would be selfish of me.

The idea of being able to go back and forth though...it depends on how you handle it. If you go and come back, do you come back at the same time you left? Or is time still going? Is one world faster than the other?

[LCP]

Have you ever heard of "Sammy J & The Forest of Dreams"?

It was a puppet show at Edinburgh this summer... really funny, but more to the point, about a guy who goes through a magical portal in his kitchen and finds himself in the Forest of Dreams.

Plot:

He meets the magical forest creatures and thinks it's a utopia, picking berries in the forest all day with his new friends: then he finds out after a week has passed that all the berry pies & such are taken as tribute by the king, who's a hedonistic, despotic feudal tyrant.

He leads a rebellion against the king; the power & popularity goes to his head a little and he ends up having a one-night stand with the woman(/puppet) his best friend among the magical forest creatures has been in love with for years, and then dumps her.

She tells the king what's going on. The rebels fight the army and EVERYONE DIES, including said best friend: his last wish is to taste one of the berries, which Sammy gives him. The king gets away scot free, and is still king, but before he rides away takes the time to inform Sammy that the berries are deadly poisonous, and he only let the forest creatures go through the whole ritual of making the berry pies and bringing them to the castle because it was traditional.

Sammy goes back home, summarising his deep personal journey as "having learnt to be a little less of a ****".

Basically, everything goes wrong exactly because he has all these Disney- and Narnia-nurtured ideas of what the plot should be. Nothing has to turn out alright, the big bad doesn't have to lose, and doesn't have to actually be bad. And the chance to cast himself as a hero actually leads to him acting pretty much like a megalomaniac.

Maybe a little tricky to work into a game, but hopefully food for thought.

[Kurald Galain]

Ah, I spotted that thread title and thought, wow, there comes another TV Tropes Addict :smallwink:

The first question you should ask yourself is, how trope-savvy are your players?

[Randel]

Here's a question:

If the players are mundane people who go 'down' the rabbit hole to live in the fantasy world... can the bad guys in the fantasy world go 'up' into the mundane world?


If the mundane people transform into their idealized persona when they enter the fantasy world then do the villains just turn into mundane folk? How would the villains be able to cope? If the heros basically send their consciousness there (maybe they fall asleep and their consciousness goes to the fantasy realm and forms their heroic body) that way they wake up in the mundane world and can shrug it off as 'all just a dream' until this new life starts to change them and have profound psychological effects (which their doctors would call a new illness).

However, the villains of the fantasy world have no 'physical body' and can only travel to the mundane world by possessing people. When the Big Bad of the fantasy world transfers himself out of the Fantasy world and possesses the body of a homeless bum then what would he discover about the mundane world? Discover all the technology, the advancements in military tactics, the massive amount of information available in todays modern world could be overwhelming to the average medevil person... but would a powerful spell caster start to wrap their head around whats going on?

Even if their magical or supernatural abilities don't work in the mundane world then what sort of damage could a villain do here?

[Another_Poet]

Don't try to be original by "deconstructing cliches". Just try to tell the truth. If you do that well, you'll end up being original without even thinking about it.

Saph is the wise.

[Leliel]

Here's a question:

If the players are mundane people who go 'down' the rabbit hole to live in the fantasy world... can the bad guys in the fantasy world go 'up' into the mundane world?

Actually, that's what I plan to use to make "mundane" life interesting.

If the mundane people transform into their idealized persona when they enter the fantasy world then do the villains just turn into mundane folk? How would the villains be able to cope? If the heros basically send their consciousness there (maybe they fall asleep and their consciousness goes to the fantasy realm and forms their heroic body) that way they wake up in the mundane world and can shrug it off as 'all just a dream' until this new life starts to change them and have profound psychological effects (which their doctors would call a new illness).

I always imagined traveling physically via portal. Bit more of a time management problem there, as well as more opportunity to examine true psychological issues instead of IC assurance that no, you aren't crazy.

However, the villains of the fantasy world have no 'physical body' and can only travel to the mundane world by possessing people. When the Big Bad of the fantasy world transfers himself out of the Fantasy world and possesses the body of a homeless bum then what would he discover about the mundane world? Discover all the technology, the advancements in military tactics, the massive amount of information available in todays modern world could be overwhelming to the average medevil person... but would a powerful spell caster start to wrap their head around whats going on?

Probably. Didn't think of that before, thanks.

Even if their magical or supernatural abilities don't work in the mundane world then what sort of damage could a villain do here?

Lots. An orc in a homeless man doesn't have the societal morals of human hobos, so he doesn't think anything at all about killing and pillaging to get what he wants. A rakashasa in a corporate executive's body brings a whole new meaning to the term "hostile takeover". And try not to think about a mind flayer anywhere...

Another thing I just thought of-most major villains in the Other World are Imagoes, given how many people like to think of themselves as "evil". Of course, generally, most of these people don't actually know what "evil" entails, so while they live in dark towers and wear spiky clothing, they really don't do many things that can be called truly villainous. Sure they oppress villages and summon demons, but they treat the former relatively well and keep the latter tightly bound.

No, the ones you should really watch out for are the "pure" Imagoes, since narcissists think they can do no wrong, and their ideal form reflects their so-called "righteousness".

[hewhosaysfish]

Here's a question:

If the players are mundane people who go 'down' the rabbit hole to live in the fantasy world... can the bad guys in the fantasy world go 'up' into the mundane world?


If the mundane people transform into their idealized persona when they enter the fantasy world then do the villains just turn into mundane folk? How would the villains be able to cope? If the heros basically send their consciousness there (maybe they fall asleep and their consciousness goes to the fantasy realm and forms their heroic body) that way they wake up in the mundane world and can shrug it off as 'all just a dream' until this new life starts to change them and have profound psychological effects (which their doctors would call a new illness).

However, the villains of the fantasy world have no 'physical body' and can only travel to the mundane world by possessing people.

I'm much more wnchanted with the idea that when the BBEG crosses over to the real world, he finds himself occupying a mundane form (just as the PCs go from awesome hero to mundane status).

Maybe, one of the PCs (a dashing rogue) steals the Book of Evil Magic that the Witch King needs to complete the Apocalyptic Ritual. They flee to the one place they think the Witch King can't follow - the real world - changing as they do so back into their orginal form of a clumsy dork (and the Book of Evil Magic becomes a CD?) To their horror, the Witch King can and does pursue; to their surprise and amusement he turns into a pencil-necked geek with jug ears when he does so. Then begins the final battle to determine the fate of Fantasyland, not a dramatic duel atop an obsidian tower but pushing and shoving in a car park.

As long as they and their foe are still evenly-matched, as long as the fate of (at least) one world hangs in the balance then it still works as the climax of the story but could be a very interesting change of pace if all the violent struggle has previously been handled through the Imago personas.

[bosssmiley]

Well, an idea of mine for 4E is a game where the PCs are inhabitants of good old Earth-the mundane one-who find their way into an alternate world where magic is quite real, thank you, and they become it's heroes, yadda yadda, I'm sure you've heard this story before...

John Carter of Mars (Earthman becomes Martian hero) and Tough Guide to Fantasyland (three book Tolkien copypaste fantasy as a guided tour) did this first and better. :smalltongue:

[Zovc]

If the players are mundane people who go 'down' the rabbit hole to live in the fantasy world... can the bad guys in the fantasy world go 'up' into the mundane world?


If the mundane people transform into their idealized persona when they enter the fantasy world then do the villains just turn into mundane folk? How would the villains be able to cope? If the heros basically send their consciousness there (maybe they fall asleep and their consciousness goes to the fantasy realm and forms their heroic body) that way they wake up in the mundane world and can shrug it off as 'all just a dream' until this new life starts to change them and have profound psychological effects (which their doctors would call a new illness).

However, the villains of the fantasy world have no 'physical body' and can only travel to the mundane world by possessing people. When the Big Bad of the fantasy world transfers himself out of the Fantasy world and possesses the body of a homeless bum then what would he discover about the mundane world?

Even if their magical or supernatural abilities don't work in the mundane world then what sort of damage could a villain do here?

The Matrix Revolutions. BBEG comes into the real world to blind the PCs IRL.

[Jack_Simth]

You might have fun reading The Dreamland Chronicles (http://www.thedreamlandchronicles.com/).

[Corian]

Or the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever.
Donaldson does serious deconstruction in that the title character first refuses to believe in the reality of his fantasy world and expects to wake up any second. As a consequence, he takes the moral consequence of his in-world actions quite lightly. Some grim stuff happens as a consequence. Not an easy novel to read when you spend a good while hating the character's guts. Let's just say that one of the themes is redemption, and so there is much to redeem alright.
The extreme literary quality of the work shines through when you stop being a "sophisticated" fantasy reader, used to parallel universes, and expecting Covenant to accept it as such. Everything in the world can _also_ be read as a dream symbol of what's going on in Covenant's psyche. Oh, and the sequels are even better.
Cheers

[Archpaladin Zousha]

So what would the ultimate zeitgeist of this story be? Would it be like that Final Fantasy Game Boy game (can't remember the title), where the idea is that your life may suck, but running away into a fantasyland won't help you? Would it be like the Dungeons and Dragons cartoon, where the goal is simply to get home? Would it be like Alice's Adventures in Wonderland, where the goal was simply exploring this strange new world? Or is it finding a balance between your mundane life and your fantasy life? You mention that as the Imago becomes more powerful, the real world sucks more and more, since you're investing your good qualities into the Imago. What happens if the PCs decided to do the exact opposite and started trying to improve their real lives. Would that weaken their Imagoes?

[Leliel]

The zeitgeist, I think, would be similar to Final Fantasy Tactics, only less broken.

IE, having a fantastic dream is great and all, but you can't allow it to run your life. At the same time, you can't live completely without dreams, or you won't have a life at all.

Yes, I do think focusing on the mundane self to the absolute exception of the Imago would weaken it...but since that's your dream self, it would make you, for lack of a better term, boring.

[Kiren]

Are you playing Assassins creed 2 by any chance?

Well as for ideas, does time pass at the same rate? If time goes by faster in one world then the other, it can have some interesting results to go back to the real world for a bit and return to the future of, "other world", perhaps a few years later, where things have changed because of the PC's actions.

[Optimystik]

I'm inclined to agree with Saph on this one. Try to avoid one thing that's been done, and you step hip-deep into another. "There is nothing new under the sun."

Just pick the cliche/trope/convention/whatever that resonates the most with you. There's no shame in copying, just give credit where it's due. (Subtly - via shoutouts or other references, for example.)