Sorcerer Build

[ChakraChanter]

So I'm totally new to this website. I'm trying this build for a sorcerer. 5 Sorcerer/7Dracolexi/3 Human Paragon/4 Abjurant Champion. I really like the idea of casting unlimitedly, since I see this the only advantage over a wizard. I would love your opinions, and advice of how I can improve.:smallsmile:

Feats: I'm going mostly for metamagic. Maximize, Extend. Rapid Metamagic, and Force of Personality. I don't know what else to choose.

Now that I think about it, Stalwart Sorcerer would be a good option and then I could kick off the Human Paragon 3 leaving more room for optimization

Edit: Okay, now I'm leaning on the 1 Fighter/9 Sorcerer/5 Abjurant Champion/5 Eldritch Knight. Was hoping the umlimited spell thing would work, but now that it doesn't, I need to change alot

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Empower is better than Maximize, just fyi. Force of Personality only applies to Mind Affecting spells. You would do better to use Ruin Delver's Fortune to boost your saves.

Human Paragon isn't worth it. I'd go for a full casting Prestige Class instead, such as Fatespinner.

For more information, go here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2180.0).

[Mando Knight]

Empower is better than Maximize, just fyi.

This is mostly because Empower can be used to gain higher potential damage and has a lower modification cost, correct?

[Pharaoh's Fist]

That, and a spell three levels higher than one you're applying metamagic to is likely to be more powerful anyways...

[ChakraChanter]

Wow, I totally overlooked that (The Force of Personality):smallfrown: But about the empower vs maximize. For this example, I will use fireball CL10. So 10d6 averages to 35 damage. Empowered would take that to 52, while maximized takes it to 60. I may be missing something, but that's how I see it.

[Glimbur]

Now that I think about it, Stalwart Sorcerer would be a good option and then I could kick off the Human Paragon 3 leaving more room for optimization

Stalwart Sorcerer hurts. Since Sorcerer generally doesn't offer much in the way of class features, you're paying spells known to get better BAB and Hit Dice for your starting levels. More spells known are worth more than BAB and even hit points.

[taltamir]

Empower is better than Maximize, just fyi. Force of Personality only applies to Mind Affecting spells. You would do better to use Ruin Delver's Fortune to boost your saves.

Human Paragon isn't worth it. I'd go for a full casting Prestige Class instead, such as Fatespinner.

For more information, go here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2180.0).

ruins delver fortune is also a "don't die" spell... the saves boost is kinda crappy.. but the cha + 2d8 temp HP, castable during ENEMY's turn is a lifesaver.

[ChakraChanter]

But how about the build? And is it true, at least from what I've read, that the Dracolexi 7 lets you cast infinitely using Veschik?

[ChakraChanter]

Glimbur, Assuming I'm CL18, that gives me only 1 9th level spell known. Stalwart Sorcerer says I must reduce the highest spell known by one (to a minimum of one) What am I missing?

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Wow, I totally overlooked that (The Force of Personality):smallfrown: But about the empower vs maximize. For this example, I will use fireball CL10. So 10d6 averages to 35 damage. Empowered would take that to 52, while maximized takes it to 60. I may be missing something, but that's how I see it.

Seventh level spells include Insanity, Forcecage, Simulacrum (abuseable as hell), Finger of Death, and Limited Wish, all of which are more useful than 52 fire damage, reflex save for half, take no damage if you are a rogue, take reduced damage if you are fire resistant, take no damage if immune to fire, which is a sizeable portion of monsters when you're level 13-14.

[Glimbur]

But how about the build? And is it true, at least from what I've read, that the Dracolexi 7 lets you cast infinitely using Veschik?

Read the whole class ability. Specifically, the line that says
No creature can be targeted by the same Draconic word twice in a 24-hour period.

Edit: my previous post forgot to explain the assumption that you'll take a PrC as soon as you can and never look back. So the extra BAB and Hit Dice don't follow you but the hit to spells known does.

[ChakraChanter]

Ok, I don't know if I have this right. Ruins Delver Fortune is a spell? If so, where is it?

[ChakraChanter]

Seventh level spells include Insanity, Forcecage, Simulacrum (abuseable as hell), Finger of Death, and Limited Wish, all of which are more useful than 52 fire damage, reflex save for half, take no damage if you are a rogue, take reduced damage if you are fire resistant, take no damage if immune to fire, which is a sizeable portion of monsters when you're level 13-14.

I'm rather lost, how can maximize or empower be applied to most those spell?:smallconfused:

[ChakraChanter]

But I'm infusing Veschik into a spell. Not neccesarily targeting my oppenent. Or is that not the case?

[Pharaoh's Fist]

I'm rather lost, how can maximize or empower be applied to most those spell?:smallconfused:

They take the enemy out of the fight much faster than 52 fire damage, reflex save for half. The seventh level spells you can be casting instead of a maximized fireball are just better, which means empowering them is not worth it.

[ChakraChanter]

I'm just comparing Maximize and Empower in terms of damage. Replace Fireball with any spell, Maximize will still produce more damage (assuming it's average, and yes I know it's not always the case)

[good_lookin_gus]

But about the empower vs maximize. For this example, I will use fireball CL10. So 10d6 averages to 35 damage. Empowered would take that to 52, while maximized takes it to 60. I may be missing something, but that's how I see it.

How are you casting 6th level spells at CL10? Empowered Fireball is only 5th level; so you could pull that off.

[ChakraChanter]

How are you casting 6th level spells at CL10? Empowered Fireball is only 5th level; so you could pull that off.

Alright excuse my mistake. CL20 casting any damaging spell at 6th level or below. Maximize (assuming average damage) will always be greater than empower. I guess it comes to a point where mazimize can't be used on 7th spells which I assume will pose a definite problem

[ChakraChanter]

They take the enemy out of the fight much faster than 52 fire damage, reflex save for half. The seventh level spells you can be casting instead of a maximized fireball are just better, which means empowering them is not worth it.

I'm not arguing over such spells. Just damaging spells

[ChakraChanter]

Alright, forget about the Stalwart Sorcerer. I'm just always annoyed by the fact I always have pathetic health. I know I'm a caster, but my DM said that if we're fighting a boss, and it sees me as the greatest threat, it'll go after me:smalleek:

[good_lookin_gus]

Are you starting out at level 20?

[Krazddndfreek]

Pharoh's argument is not that it would be better to metamagic those 7th level spells, his argument is that it would be better to use those spells instead of using a maximized 4th level spell.

[Boci]

But about the empower vs maximize. For this example, I will use fireball CL10. So 10d6 averages to 35 damage. Empowered would take that to 52, while maximized takes it to 60. I may be missing something, but that's how I see it.

You're paying one spell level for 8 points of fire damage. Not worth it.

[ChakraChanter]

Pharoh's argument is not that it would be better to metamagic those 7th level spells, his argument is that it would be better to use those spells instead of using a maximized 4th level spell.

Ok, thanks for making that clear. Now I'm face palming myself lol.

Edit: I reread Pharoh's Fist's comment, and he did make perfect sense. I don't know why I just could get it.:smallconfused:

[ChakraChanter]

You're paying one spell level for 8 points of fire damage. Not worth it.

It's actually a 12.5% increase of damage, but you do make a good point:smallsmile:

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Alright, forget about the Stalwart Sorcerer. I'm just always annoyed by the fact I always have pathetic health. I know I'm a caster, but my DM said that if we're fighting a boss, and it sees me as the greatest threat, it'll go after me:smalleek:

Ditch Stalwart. You want the extra spell. Rely on Wings of Cover, Mirror Image, and Greater Blink to protect you.

[ChakraChanter]

Now that you mention Blink, I would assume it would be worth investing in something where my enemies miss me a certain % of the time.

[ChakraChanter]

So there's an issue with my lack ok good saves, even Will save (due to low Wis), so how can I improve that? Pharoh mentioned a spell earlier, so I guess it's a start.

I honestly think I'm just leaing to another sorcerer optimization thread, which I believe is breaking some rule:smallfrown:

[ChakraChanter]

Are you starting out at level 20?

Yes, we are starting at level 20

[Glimbur]

But I'm infusing Veschik into a spell. Not neccesarily targeting my oppenent. Or is that not the case?

You have to target yourself with it.

AC and HP are nice, but they're what fighters rely on. As a caster, you can rely on miss chance. (Greater) Blink + Mirror Image + Greater Ironguard + Forceward +... then the trick is to get all those spells up before/during combat. And that's where the Incantatrix comes in.

[ChakraChanter]

I don't mean to disrespect what you said, but can you get more proof on your interpretation of Veschik?

[ChakraChanter]

You have to target yourself with it.

AC and HP are nice, but they're what fighters rely on. As a caster, you can rely on miss chance. (Greater) Blink + Mirror Image + Greater Ironguard + Forceward +... then the trick is to get all those spells up before/during combat. And that's where the Incantatrix comes in.

What exactly is Incantatrix. I hear alot about it but I've never seen it in any of the books I have.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Don't go Incantatrix. Sure, it's powerful, but you'll feel dirty afterwards.

[ChakraChanter]

Don't go Incantatrix. Sure, it's powerful, but you'll feel dirty afterwards.

I don't believe that's what I'm asking for. Could you help me instead?

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Free metamagic. Free metamagic reduction. Free application of metamagic to existing spells.

[mostlyharmful]

the cheeseist cheese there is, it's in the Faerun Players Guide.

Fullcasting with the ability to utterly wreck the game engine.:smallannoyed: Your DM will not approve

See here for evidence of mid level brokenness (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81794), high level being over here in post 11 and not needing Incantatrix but I encluded it for the sake of scale. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131414)

[Raging Gene Ray]

Another class built around free metamagic is the Recaster from Races of Eberron. You have to be a changeling, and the first level has no spellcasting, but by 5th level, you've gained

1) the abiltiy to Maximize (or Empower, or Extend) any spell 5/day for free,
2) to Still or Silence any spell 5/day for free, you get Sculpt Spell 5/day (normally you have to wait until you're an Archmage to do that),
3) and you can learn 2 spells from ANY class (even clerics or druids)

[Paul H]

Hi

Recaster is one, but there's the even more broken Ultimate Magus. (CM)

Imagine a Mystic Theurge but Wiz/Warmage, or Wiz/Beguiler, that can 'sudden' metamagic few times a day, just costing a cantrip from the other class! Broken, but can be done. And both are INT based casters!

Other favourite is Beguiler, at 20th level auto pass any creature's SR, as long as it's flat-footed, etc against you.

Cheers
Paul H

[ChakraChanter]

Wow, thank you everyone. I like the idea of recaster, but the changling req is rather unsettling, but I can't complain. I never thought of using Ultimate Magus for WarMage/Wiz. The wamage was my first pc, and I love it!

[ChakraChanter]

How does a 5 Conjurer/10 Master Specialist/5 Abjurant Champion sound? I kinda wanna add in warmage for one level in place of Abjurant, but @ lvl 20, I don't damage is what I want to be doing:smalltongue:


Edit: I know ^that was totally random (Is that against the forum rules?)

[ChakraChanter]

So, using the recaster class, what would be a good build for a sorcerer (@ lvl20 ?

[satorian]

So OP, what do you actually want out of your character? Do you want to break the game, to lay waste to the universe in one of the cheesiest ways possible? That would be incantatrix. And others, obviously, but that's one. But I'll ignore those, since playing such characters is rarely actually fun (for me).

I will assume since you are taking a sorceror and not a wizard that you want to be powerful, but not ridiculous. So, some starting points: google Solo's Stupendous Sorceror Stratagems. It will give you a baseline for some things all sorcs should know. One of the things he will tell you is never (or almost never) give up caster levels. Do not take the fighter level. If you want to be primarily a spellcaster, do not take abjurant champion. Such builds are for spellcaster/melee combos, and they severely gimp your spellcasting. At level 20, there are plenty of ways for you to avoid melee. Use those and don't worry so much about your hit points and AC. You are a level 20 spellcaster. You have 9th level spells. If you play smart, you win, even if you are a "weaker" spellcaster.

OK, now for prestige classes. Only take them if you can give up one or zero caster levels. Only take one that makes you give up 1 if there is a measurable benefit. The benefits of dracolexi are measurable, but not for your attempt to break it reason (yes, you cannot get infinite spellcasting -- if you read the class carefully, you will see that the target gets the extra spell, and the target is you, and only 1 target can be affected by 1 target a day). The words are nice, but aren't the real kicker. The power of dracolexi is the power word spells bonus. Power word pain is fantastic and thematic. Some of the later ones are great. For you, power word kill is 8th level. That is a huge benefit. Dracolexi is good, but isn't broken.

BTW, another good but not great prestige class for sorcs is dragon prophet, which I think is from Magic of Eberron, but could be from the campaign setting. The prestige class itself is neat, but by no means a breaker. However, there are some fun things you can do with it and the feats that go with it. Take prophecy's shaper feat. Have FREE EMPOWER ALL THE TIME for all your spells below highest given a round of prep. Also, if you combine Io with some knowledge granting draconic feats from races of the dragon, you will be a walking encyclopedia, better arguably than a bard or wizard. Your knowledge:arcane will be freaking incredible. At lvl 20, without too much cheese, you can probably get it to +50 or 60. With minor cheese and skill focus items, you will know the weaknesses of every magical beast you meet, even epic ones. Knowledge is power.

Don't take empower or maximize. Maximize wastes high level slots. Use prophecy's shaper for empower. Sorcs aren't that good at metamagic, unless you take the metamagic variant. Even then, you don't have as many feats as a wizard does, so burning your feats hurts. Do things to get more feats. Silverbrow human with racial sub level isn't a bad choice. One exception is energy substitution. Take orb of force for 4th level. Get energy substitution. Use it (combined with the fact that you know the weakness of every monster you meet) on your orb, or use force if that is the one you want. Remember, your orb is auto-empowered from shaper. The only other spell you need for direct damage is the shadow magic series to fake it. Otherwise take spells to protect yourself and your party, or polymorph, or be versatile.

Do with that what you will. Have fun and good luck.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Good advice.

I just find it curious that you spend 15 minutes typing up the advice, but didn't have the time to link to this (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2180.0). :smallwink:

[ChakraChanter]

Wow, thanks for the advice. I got a little side tracker from my original purpose. Why wouldn't I take the abjurant champion (Cast abjurant spells as swift?). Most have told me that al lvl 20, Health isn't any issue, but like I said earlier - My DM thinks that if you look like the biggest threat, then he'll have the "Boss" (whatever you may want to call it) come after you. Knowing that, I don't feel very comfortable having only 100hp or maybe a lil more.

Is the Rapid Metamagic feat worth considering. I don't like the sorcerer alt in PHB II since it's based on 3 + Int, which sorcerers lack:smallconfused:

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Rapid Metamagic is good. If you have Arcane Preparation because you went Mage of the Arcane Order, you can prepare metamagicked spells and cast them without time increase penatly, which lessens the need for Rapid Metamagic.

If you have neither the ACF or Arcane Prep, then you should take Rapid Metamagic,.

[sofawall]

Rapid Metamagic is good. If you have Arcane Preparation because you went Mage of the Arcane Order, you can prepare metamagicked spells and cast them without time increase penatly, which lessens the need for Rapid Metamagic.

If you have neither the ACF or Arcane Prep, then you should take Rapid Metamagic,.

The ACF sucks. It is based off of Int, not your actual casting stat.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

I like the ACF since I can use it in conjunction with Arcane Spellsurge.

[sofawall]

I like Arcane Preparation.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

A few suggestions:

Empower is good... but not for blastomancy.

Empower is used when you have a spell which has a unique effect that is not duplicated, and still viable as a higher level spell. For example: Magic Missile. The unique thing about it is that it *ALWAYS* hits and *ALWAYS* does damage. If you are facing incorporeal creatures, and you don't have anything else that will really work on them, then you can at least guarantee you're doing a decent amount of damage.

A better example, however, would be Enervation. It does negative levels. This is stupidly broken. Empowered Enervation is a 7th level spell that does 1d4+1*1.5 negative levels. That's pretty nasty. It can screw an opponent caster royally, because suddenly his caster level dropped by five, and he can no longer cast those spells he was going to win the encounter with.

If you are going with a 'gish' build, I would suggest Pal2 (choose flavor for alignment purposes)/Sorc4/Spellsword1/AbChamp5... Casting stat to all saves is tasty good. Ignoring ASF chance is better. Auto-quicken on Shield and Dispel Magic is icing on the cake.

If you are wanting a caster build, I would suggest Sorcerer5/Mage of the Arcane Order4/Fatespinner4/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7. Also known as "You can't hurt me, go away".

[Keld Denar]

Except Empowered Enervation is only 6th level, not 7th, and its 1d4x1.5 not 1d4+1x1.5.

:P

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Except Empowered Enervation is only 6th level, not 7th, and its 1d4x1.5 not 1d4+1x1.5.

:P

For some reason, I was thinking it was three levels, and Enervation did 1d4+1... wonder how I ended up with that...

[satorian]

OP, you are allowed to play a gish (fighter/mage-esque thing for the uninitiated). Nobody is stopping you. But make no bones about it. You will be weaker than if you go straight caster. The bad guys won't go after you, because you will be the smallest threat, not the biggest. The abjurant champion abilities do not suck, but they are all, without exception, and let's be clear, weaker than being a straight caster. If you want to be a caster, you want more spells and more caster levels. If I had a DM give me the option, I would trade in all but one hit point (with any DM who would be willing to do this, even those who wanted to target me) for more spells. 10 HP a 9th level spell known/castable? Done. Because, you see, I am a spellcaster, and I spend all my wealth on magic items. I am blurred, blinked, greater mage armored, shielded, stoneskinned, greater mirror imaged, wings of covered, ethereal, improved invisible, flying, and extended spell range away from the enemy. I have contingent planeshift to my home plane. I stopped time and ran away. Lightning bolts fly out of my rectum when I'm not even thinking about it.

If you are truly paranoid about being targeted, I agree with the posters above who recommended Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil. It's a stunningly powerful defensive full caster class.

Abjurant champion is for people who want to fight in melee with mediocre skill and not get hurt too much, not for people who want to be the awesome spellcaster. Trust us.

Edit for more info: rapid metamagic is not a bad feat at all, but you should really try to get things without any feats, as I said above. Substitution levels are a good strategy. Sorcs have few feats. To make it worth the rapid metamagic, you have spend the feat on that, and then enough metamagic feats to make that expenditure worthwhile. Too much for me for a class that gets like 7 feats for a whole progression.

[sofawall]

OP, you are allowed to play a gish (fighter/mage-esque thing for the uninitiated). Nobody is stopping you. But make no bones about it. You will be weaker than if you go straight caster. The bad guys won't go after you, because you will be the smallest threat, not the biggest. The abjurant champion abilities do not suck, but they are all, without exception, and let's be clear, weaker than being a straight caster. If you want to be a caster, you want more spells and more caster levels. If I had a DM give me the option, I would trade in all but one hit point (with any DM who would be willing to do this, even those who wanted to target me) for more spells. 10 HP a 9th level spell known/castable? Done. Because, you see, I am a spellcaster, and I spend all my wealth on magic items. I am blurred, blinked, greater mage armored, shielded, stoneskinned, greater mirror imaged, wings of covered, ethereal, improved invisible, flying, and extended spell range away from the enemy. I have contingent planeshift to my home plane. I stopped time and ran away. Lightning bolts fly out of my rectum when I'm not even thinking about it.

If you are truly paranoid about being targeted, I agree with the posters above who recommended Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil. It's a stunningly powerful defensive full caster class.

Abjurant champion is for people who want to fight in melee with mediocre skill and not get hurt too much, not for people who want to be the awesome spellcaster. Trust us.

Edit for more info: rapid metamagic is not a bad feat at all, but you should really try to get things without any feats, as I said above. Substitution levels are a good strategy. Sorcs have few feats. To make it worth the rapid metamagic, you have spend the feat on that, and then enough metamagic feats to make that expenditure worthwhile. Too much for me for a class that gets like 7 feats for a whole progression.

Of course, if you can enter Abjurant Champion without losing Caster Levels, it isn't bad. There are better, but it is far from horrible.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

The problem is the inherent imbalance between casters and non-casters. A full caster is, almost by definition, more powerful than anything else. Ever. Yes, even then.

However, if you are not particularly worried about being less than game-breakingly crack-tasticlly powerful, the Gish can be quite a fun and entertaining character, who can contribute in nearly any situation.

Sorcerer is a fun class to play around with, and it can bring a wide variety of tricks to any situation.

Want to be a Skillmonkey with a magical bag of tricks? Fine, Rogue1/Spellthief1/Sorc6/Arcane Trickster10/Archmage2.

Want to be a fighter-type who can buff up and drop some battlefield control down? Sorcerer can provide that as well, Pal2/Sorc4/Spellsword1/AbChamp5.

How about that guy who never studied magic a day in his life, but magical things just... happen... around him? Yea, that's where you have a full-caster Sorcerer/Fatespinner/whatever

Is it UberPowerful(tm)? Maybe not compared to a Wiz/Incantatrix/Iot7V 'cindy' build, but it'll hold it's own. And it can be hella fun, if you play it right.

[ChakraChanter]

Wow, thanks guys for the feedback. Really interesting and helpful. I'm very interested in the Recaster.

[Fizban]

It doesn't look like anyone ever gave a simple damage evaluation of empower spell, so I'll do that now. I'm going to assume Sorcerer caster level since 1: the OP is a sorcerer, and 2: Sorcerers are more likely to care since they have to resort to blasting more often. I'm also going to ignore the possibility of saves until the end, since we're just talking pure maximum damage here.

Why to use Empower Spell when dealing damage:

As you get higher level spells the maximum damage dice goes up, but that doesn't actually matter when the new spell still deals the same damage per level as the old one, meaning that damage-wise there's no reason to use Cone of Cold instead of Fireball when you can first get Cone of Cold. With empower spell, you can use the same slot that you would use to cast the Cone to cast an Empowered Fireball, and the empowered fireball will deal 15d6 damage instead of the 10d6 a plain Cone would have dealt. When you get 7th level spells you have a CL of 14, so Empowered Fireball is no longer so much better than Cone of Cold, but now you have access to Delayed Blast Fireball. DBF has a dice cap of 20d6, but you still only have say CL 14. Your choices are Empowered Fireball (5th level, 15d6), Cone of Cold (5th level, 14d6), Empowered Cone of Cold (7th level, 21d6), or DBF (7th level, 14d6). Once again the best Empowered spell we can cast has far more damage than the new spell would at the cost of a -2 relative save DC, and in this narrow band the Empowered low level spell is still better than the new one! Let's try 9th level spells: Meteor Swarm for 24d6 at CL 18, or Empowered DBF for 27d6 at CL18. Even with the effective +6 CL that Meteor Swarm has when you first get it, the Empowered spell deals more damage.

Most damage dealing spells deal damage in d6/level, and most spells have a dice cap that lets the dice keep increasing for 5 or more levels after you first get it. Since your higher level spells don't deal any more damage than the lower ones until you have a 4 spell level gap, using Empower spell to get 1.5d6/level is always superior from a pure base damage standpoint.

So, let's do Empower vs. Maximize:

Empowered Scorching Ray CL 8 does 12d6 (42) to a single target, or Maximized Lesser Orb does (40). Advantage Empower, with more versatility in choosing targets.

Empowered Fireball vs. Maximized Scorching Ray at CL 10 is 15d6 (52.5) vs. 48, advantage Empower because Scorching Ray scales funny. Assuming a 1d6/level 2nd level spell it would be 52.5 vs. 60, but no 2nd level spell with that damage will hit more than a single target, meaning Empower again has more versatility, and I can't think of any such spells off the top of my head anyway.

Empowered Blast of Flame vs. Maximized Fireball at CL12 is 18d6 (63) vs. 60, advantage Empower. At this level Fireball and most 3rd level spells have hit their cap, so they've lost some ground. At CL 11 Maximize would have slightly higher damage but then at CL13 is has even less.

Empowered Cone of Cold vs. Maximized Blast of Flame at CL14 is 21d6 (73.5) vs. 84. At this level the Maximized spell isn't hitting it's damage cap, so it's back in the lead. This is pretty much the best spot for Maximize spell, where the spells all scale evenly at each level (unlike Scorching Ray) and the damage caps are far off.

Empowered Chain Lightning vs. Maximized Cone of Cold at CL 16 is 24d6 (84) vs. 90. The Maximized spell has hit it's cap again, but this time there are enough dice it can stay ahead of the Empowered spell until the next spell level opens up.

Empowered DBF vs. Maximized Chain Lightning at CL 18 is 27d6 (94.5) vs. 108. Once you hit 6th level spells all the damage caps jump to 20d6, but you can't maximize them until now.

Whew, that took awhile. So, we see that in the earlier game Empower deals more damage while in the very endgame Maximize deals more damage, and they're about even in between. There are some other things to consider though: the Empowered spell always has a DC one higher than the Maximized spell, the Empowered spell is more likely to have an added status effect or superior range/area/targeting because it's a higher level spell, and since it's only a +2 adjustment you can apply Empower to more of your spells than Maximize (which means you have more options when options equal power, and you don't have to wait as long before using your feat on that one awesome spell).

Yes, I know that save or die is better, yadda yadda. Empower spell is actually still great if you want to take that route, because you can deal more damage than normal with your low level spells and then take the new awesome save or dies for your highest levels. It's still win/win, or win/win/win over Maximize. With metamagic reduction Maximize does become the best choice, since now we're maximizing that band of +2 spell levels where all the spells have the same damage/CL.

Oh, and nice job on the guy that mentioned Dragon Prophesier+ Prophecy's Shaper! If damage wasn't sub-optimal those would just be plain bogus. Feel free to combine with a reduced Maximize for Incantatrix-lite (cost 4 feats or so).

[Doc Roc]

If you want my help, I can be reached easily. I don't really do builds for people much anymore, but if you'd like, let me know.

[ChakraChanter]

At CL20, using an empowered fireball vs a maximized one, maximze will always yield more damage. Take disintegrate for example, 40d6, max will do 240 damage, empowered (on average) will do 210 damage. As I said earlier, a 12.5% difference (on average).

Although I believe I see what you mean. If I can empower a 5th lvl spell or maximize a 4th lvl spell, I assume most people will empower a 5th.

The only other time I can see using maximize is on a force spell. Would you not agree (Assuming the situation where other options are looking dismal)?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

At CL20, using an empowered fireball vs a maximized one, maximze will always yield more damage. Take disintegrate for example, 40d6, max will do 240 damage, empowered (on average) will do 210 damage. As I said earlier, a 12.5% difference (on average).

Although I believe I see what you mean. If I can empower a 5th lvl spell or maximize a 4th lvl spell, I assume most people will empower a 5th.

The only other time I can see using maximize is on a force spell. Would you not agree (Assuming the situation where other options are looking dismal)?

You also have to look at the size of the dice you are using to determine which is more cost effective.

Let's look at Enervation. 1d4 max is 4. 1d4*1.5 comes out to an average of 5. Clearly, empower is better than maximize, on average, for Enervation.

In general, if it uses d4's, it's better in every regard to use Empower over Maximize.

Now let's use your example of Fireball.

Maximized, you are doing 60 damage. Flat.

Empowered, you are doing 3.5 (average roll) * 10 * 1.5 = 52.5

In this instance, you are, on average, getting a better deal out of Maximize.

Now let's look at d8's shall we?

8 vs 6.75 per die. Much worse.

Notice the percentage of difference weighs in Maximize's favor as the die size increases?

Long story short: If you are using d4's don't maximize. If you're using d6's, you can if you want to, but it'll cost ya. If you're using d8's, it may be worth the extra spell level.

[Bavarian itP]

1d4*1.5 comes out to an average of 5.

Interesting theory ...

[ChakraChanter]

Your math is incorrect. The average of a d4 is 2.5*1.5 is 3.75. But I will agree with you that empowering d4s is a better choice.

But back to the Build. If I just wanna be straight up caster, you guys suggest Recaster, Initiate of the SevenVeil (Chessy?), FAtespinner, and Mage of the arcane order?

[satorian]

On empower: I think for a limited-feat character like the sorceror empower is better, since it can be used for more spells (like your higher level spells) and is useful throughout the life of an adventurer. A wizard might like to have both, but sorcerors are feat starved, unless you are playing Pathfinder. If you are starting a 20th level game, and are playing the sorceror, then maximize might be the better choice. But from 1 (or 3) to mid levels, I'd rather have empower.

On your prestige class choices. How high is your INT? Fatespinner has some very useless skill point expenditures, IIRC, to get in, as well as a divination spell, which may not be worth it. Also, you can't take it until after 8th level, which is stunting. Also, it is only 5 levels and you lose a caster level in the end.

MotAO is good. Very versatile. I never liked the flavor, and it always seemed a bit dull to me. I think it would be better in combination with another prestige class.

IotSV is very, very powerful. It does have some tough entry requirements, though. greater spell focus abjuration? For a sorceror? No thanks. Not that it won't worth it in the end, but 3 useful feats is a lot to give up. Also it's late entry.

The only problem with Recaster is RP. You really want to play someone without his own face? It makes for a very specific kind of character.

Of these, therefore, I'd say MotAO, or Recaster is being a changeling is something you want.

Nonetheless, I still think you should consider the Dracolexi and Dragon Prophet, as I mentioned above. You lose a caster level, but happens early (and you enter the classes early, so fewer wasted vanilla sorceror levels) and the abilities you get are really useful.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

On your prestige class choices. How high is your INT? Fatespinner has some very useless skill point expenditures, IIRC, to get in, as well as a divination spell, which may not be worth it. Also, you can't take it until after 8th level, which is stunting. Also, it is only 5 levels and you lose a caster level in the end.
Just requires 5 ranks in Profession: Gambling.

[kme]

Your math is incorrect. The average of a d4 is 2.5*1.5 is 3.75. But I will agree with you that empowering d4s is a better choice. Actually it is 3.5, because of rounding down.

[Eldariel]

Actually it is 3.5, because of rounding down.

...what the heck? You don't round average damages... One die averages that, but because of roundings and the fact that Empower calculates the result of the dice, not individual dice, things get stupid.