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View Full Version : [3.5 Spell] Perfect Scrying



onthetown
2009-11-21, 09:46 AM
Please note -- this is not supposed to be a discussion of why or why not bards should get the spell. I'm pretty sure we've covered it from all angles. I'm putting it in as an option, and one that I would use. Nothing is set in stone, especially if you use it in your campaign.


Perfect Scrying
Divination (Scrying)
Level: Brd 6, Clr 8, Drd 8, Sor/Wiz 8
Casting Time: One standard action
Duration: 10 minutes/level
Saving Throw: None

This spell functions like Scrying except as noted above. The creature targeted receives no Will save that would cancel the scrying, and is completely oblivious to the fact that somebody is scrying on them. Perfect Scrying is still subject to Nondetection, and can be identified with Detect Scrying. In addition, the following spells have a 50% chance of operating through the sensor: detect chaos, detect evil, detect good, detect law, detect magic, and message.

Altair_the_Vexed
2009-11-21, 01:50 PM
Personally, I think this should be 8th level.

It certainly needs to be as high or higher than Greater Scrying. The lack of saving throw makes it far more powerful than Scrying, and even Greater Scrying allows a save.
Discern Location, which allows no save, and only tells you where a person or thing is, is 8th level.

onthetown
2009-11-21, 02:13 PM
Thanks!

It's at 6th/8th now. Anything else, guys?

Latronis
2009-11-21, 08:20 PM
Bards shouldn't get it.

Temotei
2009-11-21, 10:02 PM
Bards suck. They can't get good spells.

EDIT: Unless you're a diplomancer.

onthetown
2009-11-22, 07:36 AM
A little more reasoning than "bards suck" would be nice.

I gave it to them because they get Scrying and Greater Scrying. If it were in my campaign, they would get Perfect Scrying. Nobody is saying you have to give it to them in yours; it's there as an option. As with everything in the homebrew forum, especially spells, you have to decide what your house rule will be.

Temotei
2009-11-22, 01:32 PM
A little more reasoning than "bards suck" would be nice.

I gave it to them because they get Scrying and Greater Scrying. If it were in my campaign, they would get Perfect Scrying. Nobody is saying you have to give it to them in yours; it's there as an option. As with everything in the homebrew forum, especially spells, you have to decide what your house rule will be.

I agree. It was meant as a joke, and to sort of elaborate on Latronis' post, but I can see that was lost.

The mechanical reasoning is that a bard gets greater scrying as a 6th level spell.

Still, this spell seems to be just above greater scrying, if even that. It's a shorter duration, and only allows up to 50% effectiveness of spells that both scrying (at level 20) and greater scrying allow fully. Then again, the lack of a Will saving throw is nice. But still, this spell requires an hour to cast. In the usual circumstances, I would actually prefer Greater Scrying, because of the lower level requirement, and the reliability of detect spells getting through.

onthetown
2009-11-22, 01:36 PM
True enough... so the question is should it stay at the level it's at, be put lower or higher, or should I change some of the stats in it to make it either lower or higher than Greater Scrying? I thought it was lower than Greater Scrying because it's basically just a buffed up Scrying with no Will save.. but the no Will save sort of makes it higher?

Balancing confuses me. :smalleek:

Altair_the_Vexed
2009-11-22, 01:41 PM
I reckon 8th is about right... but that presents a problem, as Bards don't get 8th level spells, and Greater Scrying, which we seem to have established is less powerful than this spell, is maximum level for Bards.

Thing is, Bards only get 6th level spells, because they get a bunch of other stuff too. Some of those 6th level spells are equivalent to 7th spells on other class lists, but most of them are powered at about 6th level. Greater Scrying is 7th for everyone else - only Bards get it at 6th - and Perfect Scrying is more powerful than Greater Scrying in that there is no save.
To give a Bard access to a spell that is 8th level for everyone else would be a bit too much.

Maybe, Perfect Scrying needs to be nerfed a little, so that it isn't as powerful, and the level brought down to 7th. Perhaps you could stick with the idea that there is no save, but apply a chance of failure based on your knowledge of the subject - maybe a DC25 Knowledge Arcana check, modified in the same way as the save DC of the other spells.

Just a suggestion. Other people may disagree.

onthetown
2009-11-22, 05:08 PM
Maybe, Perfect Scrying needs to be nerfed a little, so that it isn't as powerful, and the level brought down to 7th. Perhaps you could stick with the idea that there is no save, but apply a chance of failure based on your knowledge of the subject - maybe a DC25 Knowledge Arcana check, modified in the same way as the save DC of the other spells.

I like that idea - it also makes the two spells interchangeable with each other depending on what you want to do. Do you want to risk being noticed but need to cast a spell through the scrying without failure, or do you not need to cast the various detect spells but absolutely cannot be noticed.

I'm unclear on the meaning of "modified in the same way as the save DC of other spells"... do you mean to have the same table as with Scrying and the knowledge of the subjects?

Latronis
2009-11-22, 09:00 PM
Thing is, Bards only get 6th level spells, because they get a bunch of other stuff too. Some of those 6th level spells are equivalent to 7th spells on other class lists, but most of them are powered at about 6th level. Greater Scrying is 7th for everyone else - only Bards get it at 6th - and Perfect Scrying is more powerful than Greater Scrying in that there is no save.
To give a Bard access to a spell that is 8th level for everyone else would be a bit too much.

This is basically what I meant.

as far as casters go bards do 'suck' and partial casters shouldn't be getting there hands on spells that are approaching the very top end of what the real casters can do. Unless that's specifically a major part of the class.

Temotei
2009-11-23, 12:41 AM
Actually, if you made the casting time equal to Greater Scrying's casting time, I'd like this better. Then you could make it a solid 8th level spell, and take it off the bard spell list.

onthetown
2009-11-24, 06:48 AM
This is basically what I meant.

as far as casters go bards do 'suck' and partial casters shouldn't be getting there hands on spells that are approaching the very top end of what the real casters can do. Unless that's specifically a major part of the class.

As I said before, you're welcome to do whatever you want with the class list of who can cast it, if you do use it. It'd be your campaign, not mine. Since they get Scrying and Greater Scrying, I would allow it in mine.

I like playing Bards, and there are ways to make them not 'suck'. At 20th level, with the right spell and feat selection, they can kick ass.

At mid-level, one of mine managed to fascinate an adult red dragon long enough for the rest of the party to take its hoard. So you can see why I'm reluctant on agreeing with the "bards suck" philosophy. :smallbiggrin:

Changing the casting time... Anything else that comes up, not related to bards?