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The Dark Fiddler
2009-11-21, 10:26 AM
Inspired by this thread. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117137)

Similar to the premise of the previously linked thread, this is a revamp of the weapons system in D&D 3.5. As is, somebody who's been training with a single weapon, a dagger for example, for centuries and somebody who just picked it up, assuming the same stats and BAB, do equally as well with it. The concept behind this is simple; make different levels of training for weapons. Someone who hasn't trained with a weapon might deal less damage, while somebody who has been training it might gain any benefits with it from extra damage, better crits, or special abilities, such as tripping.

A side effect of this is that weapons previously ignored (such as slings) can now become more effective, and weapons like the Spiked Chain are a bit less uber.

As can be seen, this is very work in progress; I'm not even done with the simple weapons yet. Please suggest your own stats for weapons not done yet, and feel free to comb over what's been done already. Right now I'm only covering core weapons, because that's all I personally have.

The new system:
Under this system, unless otherwise stated, Proficiencies are handled the same way. The way the system changes is the new levels of skill. Simple weapons have additional Martial and Exotic skill levels, and Martial weapons have Exotic skill levels. Martial and Exotic weapons may have lower skill levels, but not all will.

Characters gain higher skill levels with weapons based on their class. For example, and 1st level Fighter starts with 5 Martial skill levels and 1 Exotic, while a Wizard gains none at first level. Will be fleshed out more later.

The New Weapons:
Costs and weights, unless otherwise noted, are the same as listed in the source book, and are not listed.

Simple

Gauntlet
Simple:
Dmg (S): 1d2
Dmg (M): 1d3
Critical: x2
Range Increment: -
Type: Bludgeoning

Martial:
Dmg (S): 1d3
Dmg (M): 1d4
Critical: x2
Range Increment: -
Type: Bludgeoning
Special: If a character has an unarmed attack that deals more damage than the Gauntlet (such as from a Monk's Unarmed Strike), use that damage instead. Monks and Unarmed Swordsages are counted as two levels lower for purpose of Unarmed Damage.
The wielder of a Gauntlet gains a +2 on checks to resists being disarmed.

Exotic:
Dmg (S): 1d4
Dmg: (M): 1d6
Critical: x2
Range Increment: -
Type: Bludgeoning
Special: If a character has an unarmed attack that deals more damage that the Gauntlet (such as from a Monk's Unarmed Strike), use that damage instead.
The wielder of a Gauntlet gains a +2 on disarm checks, including those to resist being disarmed.

Dagger
Simple:
Dmg (S): 1d3
Dmg (M): 1d4
Critical: x2
Range Increment: 5 ft.
Type: Slashing or Piercing

Martial:
Dmg (S): 1d4
Dmg (M): 1d6
Critical: 19-20/x2
Range Increment: 10 ft.
Type: Slashing or Piercing

Exotic:
Dmg (S): 1d4
Dmg (M): 1d6
Critical: 19-20/x3
Range Increment: 15 ft.
Type: Slashing or Piercing

Punching Dagger
Simple:
Dmg (S): 1d3
Dmg (M): 1d4
Critical: x3
Range Increment: -
Type: Piercing

Martial:
Dmg (S): 1d4
Dmg (M): 1d6
Critical: x3
Range Increment: -
Type: Piercing and Bludgeoning
Special: The wielder may opt to not do Bludgeoning damage.

Exotic:
Dmg (S): 1d6
Dmg (M): 1d8
Critical: x3
Range Increment: -
Type: Piercing and Bludgeoning or Slashing
Special: The wielder may opt to not do Bludgeoning damage.
If the wielder deals Slashing damage, instead deal damage as a Dagger at the wielder's skill level with a critical range of 20/x2.

Gauntlet, Spiked
Simple:
Dmg (S): 1d3
Dmg (M): 1d4
Critical: x2
Range Increment: -
Type: Piercing and Bludgeoning
Special: The wielder of a Spiked Gauntlet gains a +1 on rolls to resist being disarmed if the enemy if disarming without a weapon.

Martial:
Dmg (S): 1d4
Dmg (M): 1d6
Critical: x3
Range Increment: -
Type: Piercing and Bludgeoning
Special: The wielder of a Spiked Gauntlet gains a +2 on rolls to resist being disarmed, and an additional +1 if the enemy is disarming without a weapon.

Exotic:
Dmg (S): 1d4
Dmg (M): 1d6
Critical: x3
Range Increment: -
Type: Piercing and Bludgeoning
Special: The wielder gains a +2 on disarm rolls, including those to resist being disarmed, and an additional +1 if the enemy is disarming without a weapon.
If the wielder of a Spiked Gauntlet has Unarmed Damage better than that of the Spiked Gauntlet (such as from a Monk's Unarmed Strike), instead use that damage. Treat a Monk or Unarmed Swordsage's level as 2 lower when calculating damage dealt.


Martial

Work in progress; check back later or suggest your own stats!


Exotic

Work in progress; check back later or suggest your own stats!

lesser_minion
2009-11-21, 12:25 PM
If you're taking this route, which seems like a good idea, I think Exotic weapons might have to be renamed - "I understand swords to an Exotic level of skill" doesn't really work all that well.

Admittedly, many feats use the same kind of counter-intuitive teminology - not many of them really qualify as exceptional undertakings, after all.

Altair_the_Vexed
2009-11-21, 02:05 PM
This reminds me very much of the Rules Cyclopedia D&D "Weapon Mastery" system - increasing special effects with increased mastery.
I did some work on converting that to 3.5 a while back, and it's worked reasonably well in practice. I'll dig it out and post some recommendations for the rest of the PHB weapons later, if you like.

One thing that came out during my development cycle on the Weapon Mastery conversion:
Changing your damage die is a gateway to massive damage from criticals
With Improved Critical on a Weapon Focused, Weapon Specialised, Exotic Proficiency dagger - and your fighter is getting 1d6 (+bonuses) x2 on a 17-20.
Not too scary - but just take care when you apply this to weapons that are more damaging in the first place.

The Dark Fiddler
2009-11-21, 02:13 PM
If you're taking this route, which seems like a good idea, I think Exotic weapons might have to be renamed - "I understand swords to an Exotic level of skill" doesn't really work all that well.

Admittedly, many feats use the same kind of counter-intuitive teminology - not many of them really qualify as exceptional undertakings, after all.

Better names would be welcome, but one thing to keep in mind is that I kept the terminology partially because it portrays the fact that a Simple weapon in the hands of somebody with Exotic experience is about as potent as an Exotic weapons.


This reminds me very much of the Rules Cyclopedia D&D "Weapon Mastery" system - increasing special effects with increased mastery.
I did some work on converting that to 3.5 a while back, and it's worked reasonably well in practice. I'll dig it out and post some recommendations for the rest of the PHB weapons later, if you like.

One thing that came out during my development cycle on the Weapon Mastery conversion:
Changing your damage die is a gateway to massive damage from criticals
With Improved Critical on a Weapon Focused, Weapon Specialised, Exotic Proficiency dagger - and your fighter is getting 1d6 (+bonuses) x2 on a 17-20.
Not too scary - but just take care when you apply this to weapons that are more damaging in the first place.

That's certainly something I'll keep in mind. Things like this is part of the reason I'm really open to taking tons of suggestions and stuff; I'm not good at finding exploits and such. Even if I was, many more people working on it helps works those things out early.

Working a few weapons at a time will probably help too, because any flaws in the system can be caught before a ton of weapons get done.

Fortuna
2009-11-21, 03:42 PM
OK, I am trying to expand my homebrewing repertoire so I will give this a try.

Sling
Simple:
Dmg (S): 1d3
Dmg (M): 1d4
Critical: x2
Range Increment: 50 ft
Type: Bludgeoning

Martial:
Dmg (S): 1d3
Dmg (M): 1d4
Critical: 19-20/x2
Range Increment: 50 ft
Type: Bludgeoning

Exotic:
Dmg (S): 1d4
Dmg (M): 1d6
Critical: 19-20/x2
Range Increment: 60 ft
Type: Bludgeoning
Special: Whenever a critical hit is scored with this weapon, the target must succeed on a DC 12+wielder's Strength modifier Fortitude save or be stunned for one round.

lesser_minion
2009-11-21, 03:53 PM
How about Basic, (unqualified) and Advanced weapon training and weapons whose lowest required levels of training are Basic, (unqualified) and Advanced?

e.g. Basic Weapons: Quarterstaff, Spear, Dagger etc...

Weapons: Longsword, Two-Handed Sword etc...

Advanced Weapons: Spiked Chain, Kusari-Gama etc...


Advanced works well as both a level of training and a level of complexity for a weapon.


As an example:

- Basic Quarterstaff Proficiency

- Quarterstaff Proficiency

- Advanced Quarterstaff Proficiency

deuxhero
2009-11-21, 06:56 PM
Using a lack of descriptor as a descriptor is just more confusing than it is worth.


What I want to see is a way to get both this idea and weapon groups to work with eachother.

lesser_minion
2009-11-21, 07:03 PM
OK, instead of (unqualified), you can use 'typical', 'general', 'standard' or 'intermediate'.

Solaris
2009-11-21, 07:51 PM
Using a lack of descriptor as a descriptor is just more confusing than it is worth.


What I want to see is a way to get both this idea and weapon groups to work with eachother.

Apprentice Proficiency (GROUP), Journeyman Proficiency (GROUP), Master Proficiency (GROUP).

Gorgondantess
2009-11-21, 09:37 PM
I like. I like quite a bit, actually. I'll be checking in again.:smallsmile:

Latronis
2009-11-21, 09:59 PM
So moving it away from the weapon prof feats then? Good that never exactly felt right to me.

I think it should be in someway tied to BAB. That way the martial classes are getting more and sooner and mages get stuff all with things like rogues and clerics in the middle

Violet Octopus
2009-11-21, 10:00 PM
I feel that weapons at exotic level should be more than just more-damaging versions of their standard selves. Bonuses to combat maneuvers or additional attack options would make it more interesting. Like what Random_person has with the sling (though perhaps a DC than scales with level would be better - DC 12+Str modifier?

Thinking about the martial weapons (and some exotic), the following came to mind. I fully expect to get chewed out by people who know stuff about weaponry :smallwink::

longsword, greatsword, shortsword, dagger, 2 bladed sword are all double-edged weapons, so one can swing from either direction. The only thing I thought of to reflect this is pretty static though - +X to hit on all iterative attacks beyond the first). They also get the option to do piercing.

flails: bonus to disarm or perhaps sunder? I'm thinking the chain of the flail wraps around the enemy's sword.

Picks - ignore up to X armor bonus to AC.

heavy maces or hammers - option to damage enemy's heavy armor, thus slowing them

rapier, sai - bonus to AC due to parrying, bonus to disarm

Milskidasith
2009-11-21, 10:06 PM
Ignore up to X armor is more confusing than it's worth; just give them a +1 to hit against medium armor and a +2 against heavy (for instance) and it works out just fine without requiring subtraction; it's all addition, and all to one stat, making it faster.

Latronis
2009-11-21, 10:09 PM
oh come on you can't even really call that math its so simple.

Subtract a number from armour class before attack roll is no slower than giving an equivelent bonus to attack rolls againest specific armours

Milskidasith
2009-11-21, 10:21 PM
oh come on you can't even really call that math its so simple.

Subtract a number from armour class before attack roll is no slower than giving an equivelent bonus to attack rolls againest specific armours

Actually, it is slower, and it's effectively a +1 anyway. Granted, it's not much slower, but "-X to enemy AC if they have an armor bonus of above X" and +X to your hit if the enemy is wearing armor are exactly the same and adding another +X is easier.

It's also more streamlined game design; everything (or almost everything) is a bonus to you, so adding penalties is a bit odd.

Fortuna
2009-11-21, 11:06 PM
Thank you for the compliment Octopus! I agree with that idea, and so I will try my hand at redoing the dagger.
Dagger
Simple:
Dmg (S): 1d3
Dmg (M): 1d4
Critical: x2
Range Increment: 5 ft
Type: Slashing or Piercing
Special: A character recieves +2 to Sleight of Hand checks to conceal a dagger.

Martial:
Dmg (S): 1d4
Dmg (M): 1d6
Critical: 19-20/x2
Range Increment: 5 ft
Type: Slashing or Piercing
Special: A character recieves +2 to Sleight of Hand checks to conceal a dagger. A dagger may be used to deal damage while grappled or grappling in place of unarmed strike damage.

Exotic:
Dmg (S): 1d4
Dmg (M): 1d6
Critical: 19-20/x2
Range Increment: 5 ft
Type: Slashing or Piercing
Special: When using a dagger, the wielder gains +1d6 sneak attack, gaining the ability if they do not already have it. A character receives +2 to Sleight of Hand checks to conceal a dagger. A dagger may be used to deal damage while grappled or grappling in place of unarmed strike damage.

Latronis
2009-11-21, 11:17 PM
Yeah ok it is a little counter productive doing it that way. So that's valid enough reason.

Milskidasith
2009-11-21, 11:23 PM
The damage for a small dagger (exotic) should be 1d4.

Fizban
2009-11-21, 11:31 PM
Commenting on weapons so far: I thought the whole point of gauntleted weapons (spiked gauntlet and splatbook friends) was that they couldn't be disarmed at all, so giving a bonus vs. having it disarmed isn't very useful. One could rule that their worth is actually being able to use the hand without dropping your weapon, but other gauntleted weapons do fill up your hand, so that's murky at best.

Random_Person: I'd shy away from granting save inducing effects for weapon proficiencies. While weapon specific feats that have save-or-X's are great (I'm looking at you, Boomerang Daze), I'd keep them as their own feats, unless you want to give every weapon a save effect or redifine which weapons are usable into only those with save effects. I do like the extra sneak attack with dagger idea, though it still feels kinda specific. If I saw a splatbook exotic dagger that added sneak attack I'd say it's good, but putting it on the basic dagger means that any dagger-master is forced to use sneak attack to get the most out of his weapon. Never mind that they always have sneak attack, it annoys me.

And on crit ranges for all suggested: I'm pretty sure 19-20/x3 is highly frowned upon in a base weapon. Non-magical weapons always have either increased range or multiplier, but not both. You can increase the range on a high multiplier with magic, or increase the multiplier on a high range, but you usually can't do both, and a weapon with both range and multiplier circumvents that. Not that crit-optimization is extremely optimal (I'm in the "stack Improved Crit and Keen camp", but I think it should be one or the other.

Milskidasith
2009-11-21, 11:32 PM
Commenting on weapons so far: I thought the whole point of gauntleted weapons (spiked gauntlet and splatbook friends) was that they couldn't be disarmed at all, so giving a bonus vs. having it disarmed isn't very useful. One could rule that their worth is actually being able to use the hand without dropping your weapon, but other gauntleted weapons do fill up your hand, so that's murky at best.

Random_Person: I'd shy away from granting save inducing effects for weapon proficiencies. While weapon specific feats that have save-or-X's are great (I'm looking at you, Boomerang Daze), I'd keep them as their own feats, unless you want to give every weapon a save effect or redifine which weapons are usable into only those with save effects. I do like the extra sneak attack with dagger idea, though it still feels kinda specific. If I saw a splatbook exotic dagger that added sneak attack I'd say it's good, but putting it on the basic dagger means that any dagger-master is forced to use sneak attack to get the most out of his weapon. Never mind that they always have sneak attack, it annoys me.

And on crit ranges for all suggested: I'm pretty sure 19-20/x3 is highly frowned upon in a base weapon. Non-magical weapons always have either increased range or multiplier, but not both. You can increase the range on a high multiplier with magic, or increase the multiplier on a high range, but you usually can't do both, and a weapon with both range and multiplier circumvents that. Not that crit-optimization is extremely optimal (I'm in the "stack Improved Crit and Keen camp", but I think it should be one or the other.


Working as if the current exotic weapons are useful is not a good thing. The more power, the better; they aren't worth a feat at all as is.

Latronis
2009-11-21, 11:36 PM
Oo I like the extra sneak attack die, although isn't that a little too specific?

Does it also increase other precision attacks like sudden strike and skirmish?

what about the fighter who loves his dagger what advantage does he get from it? He'd likely have to at the least dip into rogue to see it's true potential, and even then it's still a situational bonus and rather slight.

Maybe it wouldn't be too bad if it gave the user a 1d6 sneak attack. Since sneak attacks always stack it gives the dagger focuse rogue a little extra punch, fighter types can receive full benefits (well providing you meet flanking requirements at the least)

Also slashing daggers are a little bit odd :P

Violet Octopus
2009-11-22, 12:30 AM
Point taken about subtraction vs addition. It was only a rough concept, and 'ignoring armor' conveyed the idea better than 'bonus vs particular types of armor'.

Perhaps daggers and kukris could be easier to use in grapples (than they already are) instead of sneak attack. Or in addition to. However if one were to allow it to give sneak attack, skirmish or sudden strike, and a fighter wields it, which one does it do?

Polearms could allow bludgeoning attacks to be made against adjacent foes with less damage).

I'm stuck for axes. Bonuses to sunder, perhaps, but that's a little boring. Some kind of momentum ability would be nice. Perhaps the option of a combined attack & bullrush?

Also am I the only one who has no clue what a siangham is?

Fortuna
2009-11-22, 12:42 AM
I have edited the dagger. I see what you mean about being useless in the hands of a fighter, but in my opinion not everyone should be able to get the most out of every weapon. Some weapons should be less useful for a fighter than a rogue, the same way that some magic items should be less useful in the hands of a magic-user.

Latronis
2009-11-22, 01:10 AM
Perhaps daggers and kukris could be easier to use in grapples (than they already are) instead of sneak attack. Or in addition to. However if one were to allow it to give sneak attack, skirmish or sudden strike, and a fighter wields it, which one does it do?

Wielder's choice :P (chosen upon learning probably)

Otherwise... adds a level of an existing class with precision damage attacks for the purpose of determine precision based attacks. If you have none... 1 rogue.

This is getting kinda messy though see my alternative idea lower instead.


Polearms could allow bludgeoning attacks to be made against adjacent foes with less damage).

That could even work with longswords and the like too.. Medieval sword duels would've included training that involved one hand on your blade (more effective at closer ranges) swinging with the blade(so the handle part of the weapon is like a club\hook) Even grabbing hold of an opponent's blade.

So aslong as it seems somewhat feasible I'd be inclined to say anything goes if you can justify it :smallbiggrin:


Also am I the only one who has no clue what a siangham is?

It's a short pointy pole basically, used to Parry and Thrust I imagine.

Alternative Idea:

I was thinking about skill tricks after a post about it the other day. In theory they arn't powerful to take up a feat, seemingly most of these should be about the same.. Not really worth a feat, but instead of using up an existing resource to get them just give everyone a new resource. Call them style points or something. If it's based on BAB than it favours the martial classes, and has the least effect on existing balance. What you could do then is do up Weapon Styles, so they look like feats on paper(with prereqs, benefits for the type of weapon etc) and whenever your BAB increases(add a proviso againest buffs that change BAB) you can spend these style points to buy these weapon styles.

That way you could have a dirty barfighter style to allow someone exceptional skilled with daggers to deal extra damage in a grapple or the like.

And have a more assassin-minded style for daggers that increase Sneak Attack die etc.

If you're really keen that could open up combination styles too... Think longsword and buckler.. longsword and dagger.. twin daggers etc.

Gorgondantess
2009-11-22, 01:12 AM
Hmmm... well, that dagger is pretty much the best thing since sliced bread for a level 3 swashbuckler, as they deal precision damage with every single attack. I think it would make it more accessible to fighters and less awesome for swashbucklers if it just gave +1d6 sneak attack damage: makes it pretty cool for everyone.

Fortuna
2009-11-22, 01:20 AM
Sorry, I am not familiar with this sort of stuff. It has been switched back to just sneak attack.

Violet Octopus
2009-11-22, 02:26 AM
Actually, grabbing swords would be an awesome thing for a gauntlet to do. Prevent the opponent from attacking with that weapon for a turn, or somithing.

I might start statting up these ideas.

Latronis
2009-11-22, 02:32 AM
Actually, grabbing swords would be an awesome thing for a gauntlet to do. Prevent the opponent from attacking with that weapon for a turn, or somithing.

I might start statting up these ideas.

What if you dont want to let go?

How would you you represent that? grapple check to free your weapon maybe?

The Dark Fiddler
2009-11-22, 07:21 AM
Commenting on weapons so far: I thought the whole point of gauntleted weapons (spiked gauntlet and splatbook friends) was that they couldn't be disarmed at all, so giving a bonus vs. having it disarmed isn't very useful. One could rule that their worth is actually being able to use the hand without dropping your weapon, but other gauntleted weapons do fill up your hand, so that's murky at best.

And on crit ranges for all suggested: I'm pretty sure 19-20/x3 is highly frowned upon in a base weapon. Non-magical weapons always have either increased range or multiplier, but not both. You can increase the range on a high multiplier with magic, or increase the multiplier on a high range, but you usually can't do both, and a weapon with both range and multiplier circumvents that. Not that crit-optimization is extremely optimal (I'm in the "stack Improved Crit and Keen camp", but I think it should be one or the other.

A) Well, I imagined it more giving a bonus when having a gauntlet on and still wielding a weapon. The metal would help your grip, and you don't just need your fingers to hold on (granted, if the metal is too stiff, you wouldn't be able to get a good grip in the first place, but whatever).

B) I've been in the camp that there should be three types of good crit weapons; large crit range, large crit bonus, and medium both. It always made sense the me that some weapons would make crits more often (but not as often as, say, the Rapier) and also deal more damage with them (but not as much extra as, say, the Heavy Pick).

Fortuna
2009-11-22, 02:34 PM
Just had a thought regarding how these should advance. Have a character gain a "weapon point" or some such for every point of BAB. One point to become proficient with a basic weapon group, 3 points to advance that to martial or 4 points to advance from nothing to martial, and 5 points from martial to exotic or 9 points from nothing to exotic. In addition, any class with proficiency with basic weapons gains 1 additional point every five levels starting with first, proficient with martial weapons gives that every 3 levels, and each exotic weapon proficiency grants an additional +1/3 levels. Perhaps there could also be some kind of algorithm for advancing beyond exotic level.

Cieyrin
2009-11-22, 04:47 PM
Sling
Simple:
Dmg (S): 1d3
Dmg (M): 1d4
Critical: x2
Range Increment: 50 ft
Type: Bludgeoning

Martial:
Dmg (S): 1d3
Dmg (M): 1d4
Critical: 19-20/x2
Range Increment: 50 ft
Type: Bludgeoning

Exotic:
Dmg (S): 1d4
Dmg (M): 1d6
Critical: 19-20/x2
Range Increment: 60 ft
Type: Bludgeoning
Special: Whenever a critical hit is scored with this weapon, the target must succeed on a DC 12+wielder's Strength modifier Fortitude save or be stunned for one round.

This doesn't do slings enough justice. Slings historically rivaled bows in terms of range and stopping power. I think this should build up to the RotW Halfling Warsling and push that further along as well. Something as follows:

Sling
Simple:
Dmg (S): 1d3
Dmg (M): 1d4
Critical: x2
Range Increment: 50 ft
Type: Bludgeoning
Special: Move action reload.

Martial:
Dmg (S): 1d4
Dmg (M): 1d6
Critical: x3
Range Increment: 70 ft
Type: Bludgeoning
Special: Free action reload.

Exotic:
Dmg (S): 1d6
Dmg (M): 1d8
Critical: x4
Range Increment: 90 ft
Type: Bludgeoning
Special: Free action reload. With exotic proficiency in Halfling Skipping Rocks, you can use the exotic sling to bounce off targets as well.

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

Fortuna
2009-11-22, 04:53 PM
Perhaps combining the two? I like the idea of being able to stun your targets with a well-aimed sling stone.

Spiryt
2009-11-22, 05:05 PM
Bouncing off is certainly acceptable for high fantasy world, but I deffinetly wouldn't make it innate weapon trait. Rather some more obscure feat.

Nevermind, haven't noticed "Halfling rocks" part.

Depending on how powerful good bow will be in ''exotic mode'' sling with x4 crit may be enough.

It has strenght bonus without any additional cost, good range and huge damage potential (crit).

If you taking things 'historically' having more than 10 max range increments may be good unique ability for sling.

As far as I know (there's little confirmed data), some long (~500 meters) shots can be attained with reasonably heavy projectiles (~50 g) - ovoid sling bullets loose velocity in air slowly, it seems.

(Bows can theoritically achieve much bigger distances, but those are:
a) usually some very modern, very weird bows
b) arrows are very light and delicate, not really suitable as weapons)

So, ending rant, ability to shoot from biggest distancec in general would be nice trait.

Anyway, whole system looks interesting, certainly brings more sense and balance than standard one (although it's not difficult at all :smalltongue:)

Altair_the_Vexed
2009-11-22, 05:18 PM
Here are the special abilities that I applied To various types of weapons in my conversion of the Cyclopedic D&D Weapon Mastery system. Heavy, scary melee weapons (eg: great axe, heavy flail): Threat bonus to AC - people in your threatened area are scared to close with you to attack Fast and sturdy melee weapons (eg: longsword, quarterstaff): Deflection bonus to AC Hard hitting weapons (eg: heavy crossbow, longbow, morningstar, maces): on a threatened critical, may stun target for one round Pointy stabbing weapons (eg: the spears, trident): skewer - the wielder may attempt to Skewer his target (up to the listed size) instead of striking normally. If the attack hits, damage is inflicted as normal and the wielder and the target make opposed STR checks, representing the wielder’s attempt to embed the weapon in the target. If the wielder wins, the weapon is stuck in the target and inflicts damage each round. The weapon remains lodged in the target for up to 1d8 rounds, and inflicts its listed Basic damage die each round. Each round a skewered target with the ability to grasp objects may attempt to remove the weapon by making a STR check of 10+ the skewering damage inflicted that round. Weapons that may be set against a charge: Sudden Set - the mastered weapon may be Set against a Charge attack using any permitted Attack of Opportunity the wielder has. No readied action is required. A set weapon deals double damage if it hits. The attack is made at the wielder’s highest attack bonus.

Hope that helps!

The Dark Fiddler
2009-11-22, 08:09 PM
Just had a thought regarding how these should advance. Have a character gain a "weapon point" or some such for every point of BAB. One point to become proficient with a basic weapon group, 3 points to advance that to martial or 4 points to advance from nothing to martial, and 5 points from martial to exotic or 9 points from nothing to exotic. In addition, any class with proficiency with basic weapons gains 1 additional point every five levels starting with first, proficient with martial weapons gives that every 3 levels, and each exotic weapon proficiency grants an additional +1/3 levels. Perhaps there could also be some kind of algorithm for advancing beyond exotic level.

I figured something like this:

Fighters (as an example) would start play with 5 martial trainings and 1 exotic training. They would gain an additional martial training every odd level (to offset the not getting a bonus feat, partially) and an additional exotic training every time they would normally gain a feat.

Wizards would be something like a martial training at 5, 10, 15, and 20, and exotic at 10 and 20. Or something.

In addition to their normal proficiencies, of course.

Fortuna
2009-11-22, 08:12 PM
That sounds cool. Another point to consider is whether we want a dagger (say) at exotic proficiency to be as powerful as a plain exotic weapon. I would say probably not, but that kind of defeats the purpose of the exercise.

The Dark Fiddler
2009-11-22, 08:15 PM
That sounds cool. Another point to consider is whether we want a dagger (say) at exotic proficiency to be as powerful as a plain exotic weapon. I would say probably not, but that kind of defeats the purpose of the exercise.

That was mainly the point, to make almost all weapons viable.

Fortuna
2009-11-22, 08:18 PM
The dificulty is that some weapons are just better. Perhaps make some weapons, particularly simple and martial, grant more situational benefits? Because if you are spending the same exotic proficiency on a dagger and a katana, I reckon the katana wins.

Latronis
2009-11-22, 09:10 PM
The dificulty is that some weapons are just better. Perhaps make some weapons, particularly simple and martial, grant more situational benefits? Because if you are spending the same exotic proficiency on a dagger and a katana, I reckon the katana wins.

For a straight up fight sure. But a katana is also never going to be as maneuverable as a dagger so realistically the katana is never going to be as effective at hitting that sweet spot. So if we do something along the lines of the dagger doing the better sneak attacks like now, and keep the katana to the straight up fight stats you have that difference and the better fighting weapon is no longer also an ideal assassins weapon :P

erikun
2009-11-22, 09:12 PM
I was thinking about this back when the first thread showed up, and began to realize that perhaps some weapons shouldn't have an "exotic" counterpart. After all, some weapons are just better than others. Compare the kama (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kama_(weapon)) to the kusarigama (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kusarigama). The latter is literally identical to the former, with an extra chain and weight attached to the end. Virtually anything you could accomplish with a kama can be done with a kusarigama, so trying to create a "kama-specific exotic weapon ability" will either be copied by the kusarigama, or will end up being something silly in order to be unique.

Clubs, short swords, etc. probably are too general or simple to have meaningful exotic counterparts. That doesn't necessarily make them worthless - basic longsword training would probably be as effective as basic shortsword training, making the two equal in the hands of a novice. However, there should clearly be something which makes longswords superior to their smaller cousins.

When I was playing around with the idea, I categorized weapon proficiencies into three categories: nonproficient, proficient, and specialized. Nonproficient is the standard -4 penality, proficient is the baseline, while specialized would be the "extra" stuff the weapon can do, from higher critical to bonuses to disarm, and so forth. Something like the chance to stun with a sling would be an excellent example of Sling Specialization.

I don't much like the simple/martial distinction you have here. The main problem is that most of them are just a damage die increase. Getting stabbed with a dagger doesn't hurt more because you know how to use it well - it hurts more because you know vital areas (sneak attack) or because you're good at getting it under the opponent's defense (attack bonus, higher crit).

Milskidasith
2009-11-22, 09:17 PM
Erikun, that's a noble effort... if it weren't for the fact that the game should preferably be balanced first, and then fit the fluff as much as possible. I mean, if we want to be realistic, we'd all die to crossbows nigh instantly.

Latronis
2009-11-22, 09:27 PM
Erikun, that's a noble effort... if it weren't for the fact that the game should preferably be balanced first, and then fit the fluff as much as possible. I mean, if we want to be realistic, we'd all die to crossbows nigh instantly.

And you wouldn't be getting sneak attacked by longbows either :P

erikun
2009-11-22, 09:55 PM
To be fair, most people didn't die from crossbow bolts - they died from the rapid blood loss, not to mention being stunned and knocked off their feet in the middle of a battlefield. That would be a nice buff to crossbows, though...

I'm not too sure about "absolute balance" either. A greatclub isn't as good as a greatsword or greataxe as it is. A dagger isn't really "balanced" against a scythe - there are just times when one is a better choice than the other.

More seriously, here's an example of what I was thinking for the shortsword/longsword, using the simple-martial-exotic system.


Short Sword

Simple:
Dmg (S): 1d4
Dmg (M): 1d6
Critical: x2
Type: Piercing

Martial:
Dmg (S): 1d4
Dmg (M): 1d6
Critical: 19-20/x2
Type: Piercing

(no exotic)

Long Sword

Simple:
Dmg (S): 1d4
Dmg (M): 1d6
Critical: x2
Type: Slashing

Simple:
Dmg (S): 1d6
Dmg (M): 1d8
Critical: x2
Type: Slashing

Exotic:
Dmg (S): 1d6
Dmg (M): 1d8
Critical: 19-20/x2
Type: Slashing
Special: You gain a +2 shield bonus while wielding a longsword. This stacks with a held shield, but not with out shield bonuses (such as from the Shield spell).


Okay, so not amazing, but it gets my point across. In the hands of a farmer or cleric (simple proficiency), the two are basically equal. They're better in the hand of a fighter (martial), although with slight differences. In the hands of an expert, though (exotic), the longsword is clearly superior.

I suppose the short sword could have an exotic: +2 vs. light armor, to distinguish its ability to pierce through chainmail/etc., but armor tables were never than much fun. :smallannoyed:

Here's my humble suggestions for the weapons already listed.



Gauntlet
Simple:
Dmg (S): 1d2
Dmg (M): 1d3
Critical: x2
Type: Bludgeoning
Special: An attack with a gauntlet is lethal damage

Martial:
Dmg (S): 1d3
Dmg (M): 1d4
Critical: x2
Type: Bludgeoning
Special: If a character has an unarmed attack that deals more damage than the Gauntlet (such as from a Monk's Unarmed Strike), use that damage instead.
Special: An attack with a gauntlet is either lethal or nonlethal damage, at the attacker's choice.

Exotic:
Dmg (S): 1d3
Dmg (M): 1d4
Critical: x2
Type: Bludgeoning
Special: If a character has an unarmed attack that deals more damage than the Gauntlet (such as from a Monk's Unarmed Strike), use that damage instead.
Special: An attack with a gauntlet is either lethal or nonlethal damage, at the attacker's choice.
Special: You get a +2 bonus on opposed attack rolls made to disarm an enemy. Your opponent may not disarm your gauntlet.
Special: You may attack with the gauntlet while holding another item (except for large items, such as shields).

Spiked Gauntlet
(same as the standard gauntlet, except for damage and as follows)

Martial:
Special: You may choose to deal nonlethal damage with a spiked gauntlet. If so, you deal damage as if it were a regular gaultlet (of the appropriate size and modifiers).

Exotic:
Special: You may choose to deal nonlethal damage with a spiked gauntlet. You take no penality for dealing nonlethal damage.

Dagger
Simple:
Dmg (S): 1d3
Dmg (M): 1d4
Critical: x2
Range Increment: -
Type: Slashing or Piercing
Special: You get a +2 bonus on Sleight of Hand checks made to conceal a dagger on your body.

Martial:
Dmg (S): 1d3
Dmg (M): 1d4
Critical: 19-20/x2
Range Increment: 10 ft.
Type: Slashing or Piercing
Special: You get a +2 bonus on Sleight of Hand checks made to conceal a dagger on your body.

Exotic:
Dmg (S): 1d3
Dmg (M): 1d4
Critical: 19-20/x2
Range Increment: 10 ft.
Type: Slashing or Piercing
Special: You get a +2 bonus on Sleight of Hand checks made to conceal a dagger on your body.
Special: You may draw a draw a dagger as a free action, as if you had the Quick Draw feat.
Special: You may use your Dexterity modifier in place of your Strength modifier on attack rolls with a dagger, as if you had the Weapon Finesse feat.
Special: You gain a +2 on attack rolls against a flat footed opponent with attacks using a dagger.

Knaight
2009-11-22, 10:14 PM
But there are situations where the Short Sword is better than the Long Sword, even in the hands of an expert. In an open field, give me the long sword, but put me in a cramped room full of other stuff, and suddenly that Short Sword is looking pretty nice.

The easiest way to simulate this is a simple table of situational bonuses.
+4: Major bonus(ie, long sword against dagger in deep snow or thick mud, where closing is difficult)
+2: Minor bonus(ie, long sword against dagger, on cobble stones, in an open area)
+1: Edge(ie, longsword against dagger, in a moderately cramped alley)
+0: Even(ie, longsword against dagger, kind of cramped room).

Milskidasith
2009-11-22, 10:20 PM
Local imbalances are fine. Having "This weapon is just better than the other weapon" situations are not. Your proposal is the latter. If I played in your system, every weapon that has a strictly better version would be entirely removed, because there is simply no point to ever using them except for flavor reasons or to trap newbies.

Game design is more important than fluff; you can refluff easily, but changing bad game design is harder.

Latronis
2009-11-22, 10:29 PM
I was thinking... Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Improved Critical etc already represent advanced training in a specific weapon much like these rules. So would they replace such feat... or supplement them?

pyrefiend
2009-11-22, 10:30 PM
I agree that the new system is fine as it is. Perhaps some weapons are inherently better that others, but balancing them all at their respective tiers of simple, martial and exotic is streamlined and natural. Plus, I like the idea that a trained warrior can be exceptionally skilled with whatever weapon he chooses. This is a high fantasy game after all.

elliott20
2009-11-22, 10:55 PM
I was thinking... Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Improved Critical etc already represent advanced training in a specific weapon much like these rules. So would they replace such feat... or supplement them?

This is actually something I've been concerned with myself.

While I'm all for more distinction between weapons, I feel that going the next step of introduce weapon points and all these new sub-systems might be too much information for the game.

However, I do like the idea that you can advance your understanding of a simple weapon by taking the martial equivalent.

but the jump from martial to exotic? that sounds more and more like a specific style feat than anything else.

Plus, introducing more benefits like this just introduces ANOTHER feat that the fighter would take to get some better umph. But this "umph" might not be really WORTH the feat. Getting a slightly larger damage die? that's like an average of a +1 to the expected damage except it's not even guaranteed. That makes it even less useful than a weapon focus. (And let's face it, a lot of the abilities we're seeing here are basically weapon focus on steroids)

Fortuna
2009-11-23, 01:04 AM
I think that these are going to be given on top of bonus feats, just as part of classes (or maybe just one class, that might be an idea). They won't need to have as much umph as a feat, because you won't be spending feats on them

elliott20
2009-11-23, 01:31 AM
which in turn makes this basically a fighter fix.

Not saying they don't need it, or that it's not welcomed. But rather, the solution proposed thus far just seems... well... kind of clunky.

There are some solutions I see in terms of resource expenditure

1. class feature: making it an ACF means this fix needs to be applied to each class individually or categorically but it fundamentally just creates a whole string of things you need to keep track of. If we can figure out an algorithm or some short hand way to figure out who gets what, (i.e. 3/4 BAB gets this, 1/2 BAB gets this, full BAB gets whatever) then this is doable. In terms of investment, we're looking at class levels here.

2. skill points: this COULD work. But we need to figure out exactly how it interacts with proficiencies and it primarily benefits rogues.

Alternatives: do away with proficiencies, and give everyone more skill points to purchase weapon proficiencies, add in a class skill called "weapons" or some such. (or we can piggy back off of say, martial lore)

2nd Alternative: skill tricks. Uses existing skills with skill checks for weapon skills. In essence, moving closer towards how ToB handles some of their maneuvers.

3. feats: again, COULD work, but one of the primary problems I see with it is that spending a feat for a situational benefit (and not a big benefit) is bad return on the feat. we can handle this in two ways:

a. the feat applies to all weapons in a group divided by damage type, weapon type (swords, axes, etc), or some other grouping. Will require we come up with groupings.

b. the feat gives you more than just that little benefit and actually gives you some pretty powerful stuff.

4. expend nothing, people just get more out of their normal proficiency

This I like. Basically, it's adding more effects to weapons. But we have to make sure we be careful not to end up giving non-exotic/non-martial weapons so many potential step up benefits that exotic weapons are now worthless.

I know this isn't all that constructive at this point, I just want to make sure people are aware of how this system could potentially just complicate things in an already fairly complex game.

Latronis
2009-11-23, 02:00 AM
Just a rough idea

Simple Weapon Prof gives you X style points

Martial Weapon Prof gives you Y style points where Y=(X+W)

W = the amount of points to improve a simple weapon to Martial level skill

Exotic Weapon Prof gives you Z style points where Z=(X+Y)

so taking those feats when you can learn a new feat gives you more style points to use.

Additionally you get 1 style point whenever you gain a point of BAB. (Class only, spell buffs don't count)

Those are the fuel for weapon style tricks. (Like skill tricks except not using skill points) 2 points gives you a basic trick. Weapon style tricks enhance the base stats of the appropiate weapon when wielded by someone with the trick, or add a functional ability to the weapon when wielded by someone with the trick. Once you have a basic trick and enough BAB to meet the prereq you can upgrade it for more points all the way upto whatever level the weapon allows (Basic - > Martial -> Exotic for example) Increasing skill should cost progressively more points.

Once that is sorted then you can start messing with classes, maybe fighters get extra points when they don't get a bonus feat. Maybe rangers get bonus points at levels they get combat style(to be used only for a weapon useable in chosen combat style) Maybe Clerics(favoured souls and paladins) get a discount on weapon style tricks that relate to their deities favoured weapon. Maybe druids can only use weapon style tricks on druid mythos allowed weapons.

elliott20
2009-11-23, 02:17 AM
well, I like the idea of using BAB as the primary way to calculate the weapon points.

Personally, I think if we want to go that direction, we should just go all the way and axe the weapon proficiencies as feats. In it's place, we give all characters skill points for general skills, weapon points for buying weapon proficiencies.

This has an added affect that fighters, by virtue of already having more weapon proficiencies to start off with, will just have more style points to play around with.

And using the step system to buy weapons I think works pretty well too.

So, a simple weapon might start off with a standard cost of say, 1 weapon point, martial with 2, and exotic with say, 4.

Weapon Tricks then will go with the standard 1 point per trick.

Maybe we can use some design guidelines

1 point = minor bonus (say +2) to something in a fairly specific situation (i.e. opponent had just missed an attack and you have an AOO available and so on)
for every additional point, the trick could be either granting a larger bonus (maybe an additional +1 to the check) or apply it a much more common situation. (i.e. by reducing one of the conditions that need to be met for the trick)
We could, of course, also have tricks that apply status effects, or just dish out more damage. Those though, start to encroach on the territory of feats, so we need to be careful it doesn't go there.

Cieyrin
2009-11-23, 04:16 PM
Perhaps combining the two? I like the idea of being able to stun your targets with a well-aimed sling stone.

My only issue with applying a Stun chance is that there are already feats and magic items that add this that obsoletes them, which would be a shame for the Stunshot Sling, which has one of the best Stun mechanics in the game (Fort DC set by attack roll!). If the Stun was made a Weapon trick, as is being talked about as the Weapon equivalent of Skill Tricks, I think it would fit in there fairly well.


Depending on how powerful good bow will be in ''exotic mode'' sling with x4 crit may be enough.

It has strenght bonus without any additional cost, good range and huge damage potential (crit).

If you taking things 'historically' having more than 10 max range increments may be good unique ability for sling.

War slings do go a long way towards improving the lot of sling use and the stats above are what they currently are, minus the range and reload which I added, as the current lack of Rapid Reload for slings is one of the reasons you don't find much sling use beyond low levels.


(Bows can theoritically achieve much bigger distances, but those are:
a) usually some very modern, very weird bows
b) arrows are very light and delicate, not really suitable as weapons

Not to mention the fragility of those modern bows. They sacrifice endurance for that range, which is not at all useful for battlefield use, not to mention that that range probably is achieved by a missile that wouldn't impart that much damage upon impact. Some of those bows, IIRC, were useless after one use.

The Dark Fiddler
2009-11-23, 06:26 PM
I have to say, the weapon points sound a bit better than what I thought originally, of mapping out when each class gains their extra skill levels.

elliott20
2009-11-23, 09:32 PM
also, because you get a lot more points to play around than say, feats, you can actually afford to use them for smaller, but more specialized improvements.

I say when it comes to making specialization, we want to make sure that we have a diminishing return on the per style point investment, but enough of one so that it's still worth while edge that you gain over the non-specialist.

We can actually, with a bit of tweaking, pretty much do away with the weapon specialization feat line and incorporate the whole thing into the weapon point system, leaving feats for more general improvements.

So, here's another axiom I think we ought to follow:

- weapon point improvements must all be tied in with either a single weapon or a weapon group.

That is, no recreating pounce or improved initiative through weapon points. (Unless you can tie it in with a specific weapon or weapon group)

Current Groupings
complexity (simple, martial, exotic)
damage type (bludgeon, slashing, piercing)
range (range or melee)

we will probably need better groupings than this. Anyone want to take a stab at coming with other categories we can use?

Fortuna
2009-11-23, 09:33 PM
So to confirm, we will be having 3 steps which do not give extra options and weapon tricks which do?

elliott20
2009-11-24, 07:12 AM
So to confirm, we will be having 3 steps which do not give extra options and weapon tricks which do?
Personally, I think that would be the best way to handle it.

Cieyrin
2009-11-24, 02:48 PM
Current Groupings
complexity (simple, martial, exotic)
damage type (bludgeon, slashing, piercing)
range (range or melee)

we will probably need better groupings than this. Anyone want to take a stab at coming with other categories we can use?

We could steal from UA's Weapon Groups (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/weaponGroupFeats.htm), which at least seem to include all the weapons in the PHB, CW and A&EG.

Fortuna
2009-11-24, 11:12 PM
Alright then, I will make a start on yet another dagger for the new system. I am working on the assumption that it should not be noticably better, and can be somewhat worse, than weapons normally of the tier that it is at.

Dagger:
Simple:
Dmg (S): 1d3
Dmg (M): 1d4
Critical: 19-20/x2
Range Increment: 10 ft.
Type: Slashing or Piercing

Martial:
Dmg (S): 1d3
Dmg (M): 1d4
Critical: 19-20/x2
Range Increment: 20 ft.
Type: Slashing or Piercing

Exotic:
Dmg (S): 1d4
Dmg (M): 1d6
Critical: 19-20/x2
Range Increment: 20 ft.
Type: Slashing or Piercing

Weapon Tricks:
Gain 1d6 Sneak Attack damage while wielding a dagger.
When dual-wielding with at least one dagger, waive two points of the penalty from dual-wielding with each dagger.
If you produce a dagger which was concealed and immediately win initiative, your first attack on that round with that dagger deals double base damage, including the bonus 1d6 from the weapon trick listed above.

elliott20
2009-11-24, 11:17 PM
Alright then, I will make a start on yet another dagger for the new system. I am working on the assumption that it should not be noticably better, and can be somewhat worse, than weapons normally of the tier that it is at.

Dagger:
Simple:
Dmg (S): 1d3
Dmg (M): 1d4
Critical: 19-20/x2
Range Increment: 10 ft.
Type: Slashing or Piercing

Martial:
Dmg (S): 1d3
Dmg (M): 1d4
Critical: 19-20/x2
Range Increment: 20 ft.
Type: Slashing or Piercing

Exotic:
Dmg (S): 1d4
Dmg (M): 1d6
Critical: 19-20/x2
Range Increment: 20 ft.
Type: Slashing or Piercing

Weapon Tricks:
Gain 1d6 Sneak Attack damage while wielding a dagger.
When dual-wielding with at least one dagger, waive two points of the penalty from dual-wielding with each dagger.
If you produce a dagger which was concealed and immediately win initiative, your first attack on that round with that dagger deals double base damage, including the bonus 1d6 from the weapon trick listed above.
The final condition you stated is already included in the sneak attack, I believe. Winning init in the first round means everyone else is flatfooted.

Fortuna
2009-11-25, 02:19 PM
No, that is a seperate weapon trick. Also, this does not require that you win init in the first round, only the round after you produce the dagger.

erikun
2009-11-25, 09:19 PM
So, for two feats (assuming martial with a fighter for default), you get +1+1d6 damage and TWF reducers. That's three feats for a (simple default) rogue. That feels pretty feat intensive for what is equal to Weapon Specialization twice.

Fortuna
2009-11-26, 03:46 AM
Eh? These aren't feats (or that's the assumption that I'm working on anyways). These are extra bonus nice stuff that you get based on your BAB, which can ONLY be spent on these weapons and weapon tricks. Also, this is the first of the new generation of weapons, meaning that I get to set the level of awesomeness. :P[/snarkiness]

Latronis
2009-11-26, 04:17 AM
If you produce a dagger which was concealed and immediately win initiative, your first attack on that round with that dagger deals double base damage, including the bonus 1d6 from the weapon trick listed above.

That's kind of confusing wording..

Although I get what the kind of idea you are trying to get across, you use surprise after drawing a concealed dagger.

Though there is a feat in Complete Warrior

Flick of the Wrist: Quick draw a dagger, foe is treated as flat-footed for the next attack that round.

Which could work for a high end weapon trick for a dagger. (It can be surprisingly awesome, but it's a little specific for a whole feat imo)