You must rescue Miko From The Scrappy Heap

[tahu1809]

Exactly What It Says On The Tin (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ExactlyWhatItSaysOnTheTin). Their are more then a few of us who like the character Miko Miyazaki, but lets face she's a Scrappy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheScrappy)and rich has no reason to fix that. But dose that mean we can't try? Hell no! The how is all up to you. Now go my fellow fans lets put some Development it to this Character!


P.S.: Yes English is my first and only language. I have a learning disability that makes grammar, and spelling very, very, VERY difficult. But like Roy I'm trying Oh lord I'm trying.

[Allan Surgite]

Honestly, I think her death scene kicked her off the scrappy heap and into the afterlife.

[Ancalagon]

Miko is no scrappy. Really. She's annoying, but more from an in-story-perspective.

I admit it was partly REALLY annoying while the story unfolded... but when the entire picture is there, her story and character is simply awesome!
Re-read it and you'll see she's surely no scrappy.

[Cracklord]

Why? I like her as she is.

[Berserk Monk]

Don't scrappies have to help the protagonists and have really annoying lines and comical relief (Miko hasn't really done/said anything funny).

[Incompleat]

Yeah, I think that Miko's story has been told: I doubt she is ever going to be resurrected.

She was no scrappy - if anything, she is a tragic character: a somewhat awkward, uncompromising, but ultimately well-intentioned do-gooder who ended up damaging her own cause more than most of her adversaries did.

She was an Othello, not a Jar Jar Binks.

Though, I do wonder in which afterlife she ended up...

[Dark Faun]

Why? I like her as she is.
Ditto.

Because Miko is under Alas Poor Scrappy, doesn't mean she is.

[Berserk Monk]

Yeah, I think that Miko's story has been told.

Though, I do wonder in which afterlife she ended up...

It's the afterlife where V's gender is revealed and we know the MitD's identity.

[tahu1809]

Ya I have to agree with on Miko scrappy-dum still I would like to see her story go on post 464. preferably not as one of the un-dead. I even have some ideas for fan fiction if your interested.

[rewinn]

Ya I have to agree with on Miko scrappy-dum still I would like to see her story go on post 464...
From Miko's POV, her story DOES go on ... in the LG afterlife.

No doubt she took a very straight line up the Mountain (not the easy route, but the route at a Right Angle to the surface) and now spends most of her time in the Hall Of You're Always Right (when she's not visiting her horse)

[Prowl]

Oh no! Not another TVTropes link! Help help I'm being sucked in.....

[Samurai Jill]

Exactly What It Says On The Tin (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ExactlyWhatItSaysOnTheTin). Their are more then a few of us who like the character Miko Miyazaki, but lets face she's a Scrappy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheScrappy)and rich has no reason to fix that. But dose that mean we can't try? Hell no! The how is all up to you. Now go my fellow fans lets put some Development it to this Character!
Uh... I wouldn't exactly describe Miko as a 'scrappy', but... yeah, she has flaws which annoy people. As for how to bring her around... ah jeez, I dunno. I would have thought a little afterlife visitation would have had potential, (maybe, possibly?,) but that ship has sailed.

The only faint, feeble, tenuous ray of hope here is that operations *are* underway for liberating azure city, so... I dunno. Maybe the elf-reinforced AC resistance need to rez a high-ranking paladin for the sake of intel on the castle's interior layout/defences, or something of that nature- maybe just being their most powerful warrior would commend their clerical attentions. Thanh was away at the time Miko needed her little 'intervention', and the exact circumstances of Shojo's death were kept secret, so he or his lieutenants might not have any direct objections... unless told otherwise by Haley/Belkar (which is perfectly possible.)

But- if rezzed- it's possible Miko's first attempt at redemption would be to admit, (without prompting,) that she killed Shojo (and that, on reflection, it wasn't a great idea. If she's rezzed, she'll have a vague feeling of what her afterlife was like, so maybe some lingering sense of cosmic disappointment would factor in here.) Given that the resistance can't be too picky about recruits at this point, Thanh might be impressed enough to give her a second chance. After that... Just keeping her efforts at hamfisted moralising to herself could make her substantially more likeable. She could be haunted, more than usually withdrawn, possibly quietly self-hating for a while- and then... maybe she gradually shapes up, or stands trial, or just commits ritual suicide as some sort of atonement. I dunno. It could go a lot of ways.

See... I'm sorta reluctant to speculate about this because Rich has taken active delight in bucking fan expectations on more than one occasion. I feel like everything we say here is likely to make the above not happen....

[Qubanz]

Miko?

I think she's more of a parody then a scrappy.

Some people think she's there as a statement against the concept of Lawful Good. However I'd say that from my perspectives these peoples don't get it.

Miko as I see her is a parody of people who can't for the life of them play a good Paladin.

She's a stereotypical crappy Paladin character in every way, hence... a parody. (Who served some plot-points mind you, but that doesn't make her a non-parody character.)

If the idea that she was there to make fun of the Lawful Good alignment was true, there wouldn't be characters like O-Chul or even Roy and Durkon in the comic. (Who are all examples of well done Lawful Good chars.)


Either way though all that said, I don't want Miko back. And I'd really like Celia to follow her. Although I thought Miko was far less annoying.

[Katana_Geldar]

She's also, as Rich says, an experiment where a character can be good and still be an antagonist. She's had her day, said her part on the stage, taken her bow and the curtain has come down.

There's nothing worse in a series than bringing back a character just for the sake of it, and I think (or at least I hope) Rich is a little smarter than that.

[Samurai Jill]

Miko as I see her is a parody of people who can't for the life of them play a good Paladin.
No, the 'paladin' roy was briefly teamed with from OtOOPCs was that paladin. Miko did, at least, walk the walk as well as talk the talk- insofar as she did actually show concern for rescuing people now and then.

[JonestheSpy]

There's nothing worse in a series than bringing back a character just for the sake of it, and I think (or at least I hope) Rich is a little smarter than that.

No kidding. Comic books have already made death completely meaningless (in DC&Marvelworld, anyway), don't need any of that here. I mean, the fact that Roy was going to be Raised eventually was a major part of the plot, but that shouldn't mean that anyone we see die will show up again eventually...

[HotAndCold]

Miko was more a paladin played to the extreme than one played as hardly a paladin at all. She was definitely Lawful Good, she was just Lawful Good to a fault in her inflexibility and inability to acknowledge the possibility of being wrong.

Personally, I've never thought of Miko as a Scrappy, either. She was flat-out wrong and had her head up her ass, sure, but being an unlikable person doesn't make her an unlikable character as far as I'm concerned.

[tahu1809]

Uh... I wouldn't exactly describe Miko as a 'scrappy', but... yeah, she has flaws which annoy people. As for how to bring her around... ah jeez, I dunno. I would have thought a little afterlife visitation would have had potential, (maybe, possibly?,) but that ship has sailed.

The only faint, feeble, tenuous ray of hope here is that operations *are* underway for liberating azure city, so... I dunno. Maybe the elf-reinforced AC resistance need to rez a high-ranking paladin for the sake of intel on the castle's interior layout/defences, or something of that nature- maybe just being their most powerful warrior would commend their clerical attentions. Thanh was away at the time Miko needed her little 'intervention', and the exact circumstances of Shojo's death were kept secret, so he or his lieutenants might not have any direct objections... unless told otherwise by Haley/Belkar (which is perfectly possible.)

But- if rezzed- it's possible Miko's first attempt at redemption would be to admit, (without prompting,) that she killed Shojo (and that, on reflection, it wasn't a great idea. If she's rezzed, she'll have a vague feeling of what her afterlife was like, so maybe some lingering sense of cosmic disappointment would factor in here.) Given that the resistance can't be too picky about recruits at this point, Thanh might be impressed enough to give her a second chance. After that... Just keeping her efforts at hamfisted moralising to herself could make her substantially more likeable. She could be haunted, more than usually withdrawn, possibly quietly self-hating for a while- and then... maybe she gradually shapes up, or stands trial, or just commits ritual suicide as some sort of atonement. I dunno. It could go a lot of ways.

See... I'm sorta reluctant to speculate about this because Rich has taken active delight in bucking fan expectations on more than one occasion. I feel like everything we say here is likely to make the above not happen....That never stopped the Naruto fandom, or the Harry Potter famdom, or Ranma1/2, Inuyasha, star trek or wars and so on. Look what I'm trying to say is this it doesn't mater if the Arther contradicts you later or if he already has. That what makes fan fiction so grate!:smallbiggrin: Hell my idea doesn't even have her dieing... And wile I'm think about that dose any one have info on Miko pre OoTS and/or the monk class?

[Katana_Geldar]

Speaking for Star Wars fans, it annoys us when characters get "rezed" after they've been put to bed, it cheapens their death.

Miko's death was done extremely well, the only thing that would justify bringing her back is if it was done badly. Of course, one can speculate and write another verison, but that's niether here nor there.

[spargel]

I'm surprised this comic took the path of "Have my characters survive by incredible luck" most of the time rather than resurrection, considering the universe they're in.

[silvadel]

If we ever see miko again it would be in the form of a phantasimal killer unleashed by girard.

[SeventhCircle]

I just wasted two hours reading TV tropes - don't do that to me!

[multilis]

This is a world where death isn't really death but a sickness or jail that can be cured with a lot of cash and a little help if wanted.

*If* the good guys battle for or retake Azure City *and* someone identifies and saves a bit of Miko including from some of her unique gear (may have already happenned with the slaves cleaning up the corpses), it is believable that someone might find it useful/worthwhile to bring her back.

There is still story left if wanted with Miko's awkward attempts at redemption, and hard to predict if she would succeed.

Of course lots of other stories can be told as well, including the possible tragic ends of most of OOTS, oracle, goblins, X, linear guild, fiends, gods, dwarves, ming etc.

[Red XIV]

I just wasted two hours reading TV tropes - don't do that to me!
You can't say you weren't warned (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TVTropesWillRuinYourLife).

[SeventhCircle]

You can't say you weren't warned (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TVTropesWillRuinYourLife).

When I first read that page, it started me on a nearly four-hour Tropes binge... terrible. (http://xkcd.com/609/)

[LuisDantas]

I would hardly agree that Miko should be "rescued" from either the Scrappy Heap or from whatever afterlife she eventually ended up in (which I feel has been all but proven in-comic not to be Celestia, unless one assumes Windstriker somehow would have trouble reaching Miko in Celestia).

Heck, forget Windstriker, Miko is simply not LG material by a long shot. Her afterlife is that of sincerely deluded people, probably some realm within the TN afterlife. Better yet, give her a True Death. Unusual and perhaps even non-canonical for D&D worlds, but a true fit for such a tragic, hopeless character.

That said, I would like to see some more of her. She is perfect for some sort of prequel detailing how she became such a nervous wreck.

[LuisDantas]

Miko was more a paladin played to the extreme than one played as hardly a paladin at all. She was definitely Lawful Good, she was just Lawful Good to a fault in her inflexibility and inability to acknowledge the possibility of being wrong.

Doesn't the trailing end of your statement put the leading end in question?

Being Lawful Good, at least by my understanding, involves learning to rise above such petty character flaws.

[Katana_Geldar]

I wonder if Miko's spirit would be willing to return, it would be interesting to learn what happened to her in the afterlife. I doubt she made it to the mountain, though.

[Incompleat]

You can't say you weren't warned (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TVTropesWillRuinYourLife)

When I first read that page, it started me on a nearly four-hour Tropes binge... terrible. (http://xkcd.com/609/)

You mean that that link was a Schmuck Bait (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SchmuckBait)? :smallbiggrin:

[Turkish Delight]

Miko was meant to be a Scrappy. She was meant to be loathed as a crazed self-righteous Knight Templar with zero ability to objectively examine her own actions and beliefs. Changing her into something else would defeat the whole point.

Soon said it right: redemption isn't for everyone. And it shouldn't be for Miko. She wouldn't even really be Miko anymore if she were to acknowledge at some point that something she did was wrong.

[BobVosh]

Also say what you will, she has one of the best "fallen paladin" story lines for actually falling.

Although everytime I read this comic, I can't help but think "No! O-Chul! You are the best, the mightiest!"
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0411.html

[HandofShadows]

Leave her dead. It's where she deserves to be.

[theinsulabot]

ding dong the witch is (still) dead!:smallbiggrin:

[tahu1809]

Speaking for Star Wars fans, it annoys us when characters get "rezed" after they've been put to bed, it cheapens their death.

Miko's death was done extremely well, the only thing that would justify bringing her back is if it was done badly. Of course, one can speculate and write another verison, but that's niether here nor there. Waite don't you mean Star track?
Well ya I agree with you on that and in my idea I avoid her PHYSICAL death all together.

[HotAndCold]

Doesn't the trailing end of your statement put the leading end in question?

Being Lawful Good, at least by my understanding, involves learning to rise above such petty character flaws.


"Law" implies honor, trustworthiness, obedience to authority, and reliability. On the downside, lawfulness can include close-mindedness, reactionary adherence to tradition, judgmentalness, and a lack of adaptability. Those who consciously promote lawfulness say that only lawful behavior creates a society in which people can depend on each other and make the right decisions in full confidence that others will act as they should.

"Good" implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others.

Lawful Good, "Crusader"

A lawful good character acts as a good person is expected or required to act. She combines a commitment to oppose evil with the discipline to fight relentlessly. She tells the truth, keeps her word, helps those in need, and speaks out against injustice. A lawful good character hates to see the guilty go unpunished.

I don't see anything that implies that an LG character isn't allowed to be flawed in the same manner that Miko is? She leans harder on the Law side of her alignment than she does the Good side, but that doesn't make her not Good any more than leaning harder on the Good side than the Lawful one makes Roy non-Lawful.

[HandofShadows]

Miko leaned so hard on the law side that it made her do evil acts. Her goodness was sacrificed for law. Which makes her a non good character (probably Lawfull Neutral and might have headed towards Lawful Evil if she had lived longer).

[Katana_Geldar]

Waite don't you mean Star track?
Well ya I agree with you on that and in my idea I avoid her PHYSICAL death all together.

No, I don't.

[tahu1809]

Then who's death are you talking about?

[hamishspence]

Probably Palpatine. Him getting resurrected was not exactly popular with a large section of the Expanded Universe readers- even if he didn't last long.

EDIT:

Or, more likely, Boba Fett- who turned out to have survived the Sarlacc, in the same story- the Dark Empire comic books.

[Katana_Geldar]

Then there Daala, Lumiya, Alema and the speculation surrounding Anakin Solo.

[Demented]

Exactly What It Says On The Tin (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ExactlyWhatItSaysOnTheTin). Their are more then a few of us who like the character Miko Miyazaki, but lets face she's a Scrappy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheScrappy)and rich has no reason to fix that. But dose that mean we can't try? Hell no! The how is all up to you. Now go my fellow fans lets put some Development it to this Character!

Simple.

A prequel.

We already know she was a monk, that her parents were killed, and that she was essentially stolen away by Shojo and made a paladin so that she could be his personal agent provocateur. That sounds like the perfect beginning of an adventure! She's more of a wesley (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheWesley) than a scrappy, which works to our advantage; there's no main character for her to overshadow if she is the main character.

Of course, giving her a published storyline all of its own is probably exactly the sort of thing that would happen to a wesley....

[hamishspence]

While I would really rather it not be All About Her, a prequel covering the Sapphire Guard, Shojo, etc and what they were doing at the same time as the events in SoD, would be interesting.

The claim "we're only seeing half the story- if we saw the Sapphire Guard's story, their massacre of goblin children would seem justified" has been made, numerous times- and it would be nice to see a prequel covering their activities, from their point of view.

And Shojo's bringing Miko into the Sapphire guard, and some of her ealy years with them, could be included.

[Demented]

Seeing it through Miko's eyes would probably provide a strikingly Lawful Neutral viewpoint of a Lawful Good organization slaughtering a Lawful Evil society. She is, after all, Lawful Good to the letter, rather than to the intent. :p

[HotAndCold]

Miko leaned so hard on the law side that it made her do evil acts. Her goodness was sacrificed for law. Which makes her a non good character (probably Lawfull Neutral and might have headed towards Lawful Evil if she had lived longer).

And Roy's leaned so hard on the good side that he's performed chaotic acts. He's still Lawful, and Miko was still Good when she died. Close to Neutral, maybe, but she performed one decidedly Evil act when she killed Shojo, and she thought she was doing Good when she did it, on top of that. Falling doesn't actually necessarily involve an alignment change, just an act that contradicts the ideal of Lawful Good.

Miko was bat**** crazy, but she was bat**** Lawful Good.

[Incompleat]

Miko leaned so hard on the law side that it made her do evil acts. Her goodness was sacrificed for law. Which makes her a non good character (probably Lawfull Neutral and might have headed towards Lawful Evil if she had lived longer).

I think that this is not it.
The action that made her fall was both chaotic and evil: there are lawful ways to deal with a leader who is suspected of treason, and bisecting him on the spot is not one of them.

And immediately after, she refused to obey her new liege, Hinjo, simply because "I am special, and the Gods have a plan for me". That was a chaotic act if I ever saw one.

While Miko was extremely lawful, in the end it was not her lawfulness that caused her demise: it was her lack of self-analysis, combined with an unreasonable (but fully justified, in-character) anger towards the Order of the Stick and a hefty amount of egocentrism.

[LuisDantas]

I don't see anything that implies that an LG character isn't allowed to be flawed in the same manner that Miko is?


"Law" implies honor, trustworthiness, obedience to authority, and reliability.

For all her self-image, Miko was quite unreliable when push came to shove. She preached her own way rather relentlessly and just barely followed direct orders from Shojo. In fact, her initial attempt to kill the OOtS on sight was actually at odds with those orders, although it could perhaps turn out to be a retcon of some sort.


On the downside, lawfulness can include close-mindedness, reactionary adherence to tradition, judgmentalness, and a lack of adaptability. Those who consciously promote lawfulness say that only lawful behavior creates a society in which people can depend on each other and make the right decisions in full confidence that others will act as they should.

Trouble is, ever since she learned of Shojo´s schemes Miko declared herself better than tradition, explicitly claiming to distrust the courts which she had a duty to respect. And, of course, making herself judge, jury and executor for Shojo.

Maybe she was lawful prior to that. But from what evidence we have, she wasn´t ever since. Not that she would admit it.


"Good" implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others.

Miko was never big on personal sacrifices, or on caring about the dignity of others. She often tried, sometimes hard - her fateful talk with Roy in #250-251 comes to mind - by ultimately she was quite bad at that.


Lawful Good, "Crusader"

A lawful good character acts as a good person is expected or required to act. She combines a commitment to oppose evil with the discipline to fight relentlessly. She tells the truth, keeps her word, helps those in need, and speaks out against injustice. A lawful good character hates to see the guilty go unpunished.

No doubt that is how Miko saw herself. But she fall tragically short from actually being that way.


She leans harder on the Law side of her alignment than she does the Good side, but that doesn't make her not Good any more than leaning harder on the Good side than the Lawful one makes Roy non-Lawful.

That is something that many people say, but I must disagree. Miko was arguably even less Lawful than she was Good.

That is IMO why she is such an interesting character; the dissonance between her acts and her self-image is loud to the point of being deafening.

[tahu1809]

You know I think this is geting off topic.

[Nimrod's Son]

Another "Miko's Alignment" thread then? Way to go, Playground. :smallsigh:

[tahu1809]

Not my fault. I just wanted to start a story building thread.

[Jagos]

While I would really rather it not be All About Her, a prequel covering the Sapphire Guard, Shojo, etc and what they were doing at the same time as the events in SoD, would be interesting.

The claim "we're only seeing half the story- if we saw the Sapphire Guard's story, their massacre of goblin children would seem justified" has been made, numerous times- and it would be nice to see a prequel covering their activities, from their point of view.

And Shojo's bringing Miko into the Sapphire guard, and some of her ealy years with them, could be included.

I would actually be interested in this. Thing is, I'd love to see how the elves were beforehand that are helping Azure as we speak. Then we have the hobbos and regular goblins that need some explaining.

If we threw in the Sapphire Guard through three different viewpoints, Soon's after his journey, young Miko, and older Shojo, I can see that we get through all of the major plots without a lot of story being given away simply by the prequel.

[Nimrod's Son]

Not my fault. I just wanted to start a story building thread.
I know. That's why I said "Playground" instead of addressing you.

[grautry]

Hmm... As a person who is fairly neutral on Miko, let me try to tell you her story.

Here's the thing about Miko - while her actions aren't excusable, they can be rather reasonably explained from what we know about Miko.

Think about Miko's life for a moment - she was an orphan(as far as I remember) who grew up with monks. She lived a life of uncompromising and perfect Lawful discipline(good bet is Lawful Neutral for the monks who raised her). Afterwards, Shojo found her, told her that she was special(first time ever when she was actually accepted for who she was - you can't tell me that a monk monastery had any sort of familial warmth).

So, Miko, for the first time in her life feels like she belongs. She's a Paladin, a force of perfect and uncompromising good. But, problems begin to appear. She isn't liked - she's socially inept, her every attempt at social interaction is met with coldness or rejection(her anger at treasure type O comment tells us that Roy's rejection isn't the only one).

She learns that other people will only bring her pain. She becomes colder, more aloof. So she focuses on something else - she becomes an excellent Paladin, but that's not enough - she strives to become a perfect Paladin. Why? Because it's the only thing that works for her. She doesn't know any sort of family, she probably has very little in the way of intellectual pursuits, she has no friends, no romance, nothing. Paladin-hood is the only thing in her life that works for her.

When she grows up, she's further alienated - as Hinjo said, she was often sent on loooong missions away. Her already non-existent social skills continue to vanish.

And what does she learn on these missions? We know from SoD how the Sapphire Guard operates. Her entire life, she learns that black-and-white morality is the One True Way and there are no events in her life, whatsoever, that challenge this point of view. She never really has to think for herself - she's sent to destroy evil, she comes back, gets sent on another long mission to destroy evil. That's the entirety of her life.

Cold and aloof with black-and-white morality firmly in her mind, she meets the Order of the Stick. She can't quite understand them - her very focused childhood has left here incapable of understanding shades of grey. When Roy tries to romance her, she responds with rejection because she already learned that romance only brings pain.

But in time, she warms up to the idea. Only to be cruelly rejected again. Her resolve to be antisocial, disciplined and to see in black-and-white is further strengthened.

When she goes after Belkar, she's actually right - Belkar is a monster. There's no questions about it. And yet, he is protected by the very Law she swore to protect. She's incapable of dealing with the doubt that brings - she never had to, because she was always the one to obey and now obeying means that a monster gets to live.

See here's the thing about Shojo incident - once again, Miko could simply not understand any sort of shades of grey. In her entire life, she never experienced them. When Shojo admitted to 'wrongdoings', she immediately - and with her life experience, can you blame her? - judged him to be thoroughly evil.

And then, she Falls. The event breaks her, it's a Despair Event Horizon. Everything, simply everything else in life has failed her. She only had her paladin-hood going for her. And she Falls.

Without the paladin immunity to fear, she(for the first time in ages) must deal with the crippling fear of her possibly being wrong(and, being a former paladin since more or less childhood, it's likely that she simply doesn't know how to healthily deal with fear). She smothers those feelings. She's in total and complete denial - life will not take away the only thing that she treasured - this simply must be some plan the Gods have for her. If it is not - then she will break totally and completely and so she simply can't believe in anything else.

So, does that work for you?

[theinsulabot]

/snip
So, does that work for you?
/snip

not as much as the hope that the lawful neutral afterlife has a great view of Celestia so that miko can get a nice long look at what she missed out on whenever she likes.


:smallcool:

[grautry]

not as much as the hope that the lawful neutral afterlife has a great view of Celestia so that miko can get a nice long look at what she missed out on whenever she likes.


:smallcool:

Incidentally, I think that my version(really, I don't know how much of my speculation is actually completely canonical) would make for a splendid devil(but eh, I'd rather not see her again, that chapter of the story is well and truly closed IMO).

A sort of "{Scrubbed} I served you all my life and this is what I get?" sort of devil. When she refused Blackguard trade in, she was still completely in denial.

Unless she's still in denial while in the afterlife, that is. Doesn't seem like an unlikely possibility.

[tahu1809]

So, does that work for you?Very much so. It really seamiest how my story starts. Now if I only have the talent to wright it.

[Omergideon]

The above description is indeed exactly why Miko became such an overbearing and unfriendly person. It is in my opinion a near perfect summary of why she became who she was. I admit to disliking Miko as much as anyone can but I pity her far more than that. The biggest part of her tragedy is that it would be very easy with just a few changes to make her into a decent and good person. It wouldn't take much.

I think, in comic, the major tipping points are without doubt when Roy rejects her in a needlessly cruel fashion, and when V and the order choose to save Belkar. Roy's rejection of her was I think justified from what he knew of her, I would be quite against a relationship with Miko. Roy's problem here was that he used highly personal insults in a clearly angry fashion to insult and anger her. As said perhaps the first time in a long time that she reaches out to someone in such a personal way and she is cruelly rejected. It is no suprise at that point that she burys herself in paladinhood. And then there is the V moment.

If I am completely honest I truly am on Miko's side regarding the killing of Belkar there. He has escaped custody, killed a guard, and promised to kill more innocent people. In her role as a law enforcer to execute Belkar at this point is quite justifiable. There is no question that Belkar is evil. And then the order all step up to defend him, V first. If any moment was to convince her that the Order as a whole is evil it would be that one.

Change these 2 moments slightly and then Miko will likely turn out quite differently. I could not guess how or why but if I was to write a story about how things could change I would start with V not defending Belkar and the Order reluctantly allowing Belkar's execution. It would cause a lot of tension without doubt and really shake things up especially for Miko.

[hamishspence]

She had his weapon out of his hands.

Also, when did he threaten to kill more innocent people?

Not just that, but, whether or not paladins have "moral authority" to kill evil beings- that authority is subject to the requirements of law enforcement- which include people accused of a crime, getting a trial. As Hinjo put it "we have the rule of law here". Both Hinjo and Shojo make it clear that paladins getting to execute people out-of-hand, is not the norm.

[Big Hungry Joe]

Miko had a great (if grating) character arc, and I particularly liked Soon's near-afterlife discussion of her failure to be redeemed, that it is a rare thing and not for everyone. She also raised some interesting questions about what happens if one is devout but seemingly lacks true wisdom. In a world filled with active gods and clerics, it's interesting how she seemed to take mundane details (like a crack in her prison bars) as divine messages. The 12 gods need hardly be that subtle.

That said, I also admit to still being intrigued by the whole powerful, free-willed, black armored undead teaser bit. That would indeed have been glorious, if only to temporarily annoy Xykon. The strip clearly has its alpha free-willed undead dude, but a transformed Miko would have been all sorts of messed up as some sort of death knight or other. No idea if it's accurate canon or not, but the D&D wiki claims the first death knight was created by a pact between a ... wait for it ... bitter ex-paladin and a lich. Ahh, what might have been.

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Death_Knight_(DnD_Class)

[neodav]

As much as anything, the problem of classifying her comes from a long-standing issue in roleplaying: Is alignment determined by personal belief, or by outside observation? She certainly believes herself to be Lawful Good. In her case, she follows the same "logic" as Dr. George Tiller's assassin, among others.

In her view, any violations of the law, or even basic civility, in her duty are fine simply because she follows a "higher law," that of her god/gods. The same applies for the Good alignment, as her thinking goes "My god is good, everything I do is what my god wants, therefore I'm good, too." To her, she's the paragon of Lawful Good, but to an outside observer, she's Lawful Neutral at best, teetering on the brink of Chaotic Neutral due to the utter lack of human decency to weigh down her sanity.

[Turkish Delight]

As much as anything, the problem of classifying her comes from a long-standing issue in roleplaying: Is alignment determined by personal belief, or by outside observation?

I can't see how that would be a particularly challenging issue in AD&D, at least. The existence of an afterlife in which people are judged and sorted according to their actions suggests pretty heavily that morality in the OotS world...and in AD&D campaign worlds in general...is objectively determined by someone or another outside of the person claiming the alignment.

Which would only make sense. I'm guessing most Evil people wouldn't self-identify as such even to themselves, outside of the real extreme cases like Xykon or Belkar.

[multilis]

"Objectively" can mean looking at *intent* rather than *results*.

Miko intended to save the world by destroying the gate, which Soon brings out, even though it was a mistake (helped rather than hurt X).

In Miko world, there was a grand conspiracy with OOTS perhaps helping X ruin the world and her boss deceiving all the paladins to help OOTS do the evil. Her "proof" of belkar being evil and supported by OOTS over a good her, X still being alive despite Roy claiming dead, etc, are dumb.

Does dumb make evil? Suppose when Nale was "proving" to Elan that Haley was evil, Haley never got her speech back and Elan hurt or killed her in his anger (trying to stop her "evil" "sneak attack"). Would that make Elan CE alignment?

(http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0393.html, see also Nale's monologue on next page, frame 2)

[Demented]

Her 'intent' was to dignify herself. Saving the world and being a paladin was just a merit badge.

None of which has very much to do with her alignment.
And unless I missed something, her alignment doesn't have much to do with the "Scrappy Heap" problem either.

[LuisDantas]

It sure IS hard to avoid commenting on Miko's alignment yet again. Despite having been there and done that so many times before... :)

[warmachine]

I despise keeping characters or series beyond good stories involving them. However, I think there are two, remaining good stories for her: a long decision to become a blackguard or a long journey to learn how to think beyond black and white morality and become a redeemed Paladin. Either should be a good story if Rich's muse will pick one up.

[HotAndCold]

Well, her alignment is, at least, slightly more provable than whether or not she's a scrappy. (Even if it is only slightly.) :smallwink: Not entirely provable, of course, given the flexibility and/or vagueness of the alignment descriptions, but there's more to discuss there than the completely subjective matter of how annoying she is.

[TheBST]

At this point, I think the best way to make Miko less annoying is to stop talking about her.

It's all been said.

[Optimystik]

Why? I like her as she is.

So do I; quietly decomposing, away from the camera.

[Nilan8888]

Miko feels quite 'done'. If Rich wants to resurrect her or make her part of the story from the afterlife... after all I don't see why she might not have an cameo/extended cameo in that respect... well ok fine.

But why dwell on past accomplishments? The worst thing you can do as an artist is start resorting to your 'greatest hits' package. What about the new characters you have yet to create? What about thier stories?

[Demented]

Well, her alignment is, at least, slightly more provable than whether or not she's a scrappy. (Even if it is only slightly.) :smallwink: Not entirely provable, of course, given the flexibility and/or vagueness of the alignment descriptions, but there's more to discuss there than the completely subjective matter of how annoying she is.

Her alignment could be proven while she was a paladin, but not after.

Whereas it's safe to say that she has always had a large number of oots-fans who dislike her at a minimum, practically since introduction.

[fangthane]

I was happier not knowing Darth Vader's full back-story.

I was happier not knowing how Shrek's happily-ever-after worked out after the first movie. (or, for that matter, any of the happily-ever-after stories I used to like as a kid)

I was happier not knowing how bad the DC universe would be if Hal Jordan freaked out and completely lost it.

And I'll be happier not knowing anything more about Miko than I do right now.

She was a well-portrayed characterisation of a gaming situation I loathe, has had her arc and dramatic finale, and any further exposition can only serve to weaken her effectiveness. Rest in pieces, Miko.

[HotAndCold]

Her alignment could be proven while she was a paladin, but not after.

Whereas it's safe to say that she has always had a large number of oots-fans who dislike her at a minimum, practically since introduction.

And a large number of fans dislike, say, Belkar. The fact of the matter is that it's a personal opinion and there's little to nothing to discuss about it.

[kukn]

I just wasted two hours reading TV tropes - don't do that to me!

Seconded...

[Nilan8888]

I was happier not knowing Darth Vader's full back-story.

Ah yes, but were you happier not knowing the back-story of Harvey Dent? Probably not.

The thing about these back stories, I think, is that you have to WRITE them. You can't just write out your regular story with a kick-ass bad guy, leave his past ambiguous, and later on when you're ready to start the backstory assume that just because your character's been around for a while you can afford to sit back and let that backstory write itself.

You have to think. You have to plan.

And you have to make it relevant. Are you telling your audience anything new? Well then forget it. Are you telling them anything particularly interesting? Anything that they can relate to? Anything that fits the character you've created?

If you can't do that, it's just best not to bother.

[Kish]

No idea if it's accurate canon or not, but the D&D wiki claims the first death knight was created by a pact between a ... wait for it ... bitter ex-paladin and a lich. Ahh, what might have been.

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Death_Knight_(DnD_Class)
Not a syllable of that is official, if you were curious. (It even says "homebrew" at the bottom.)

[SadisticFishing]

She suffered from hubris. That was her one character flaw, her sin - other than that, she was far more noble than most characters in the story, and she always stayed consistent within herself.

I grieve that there are so few Mikos in real life.

[Callista]

She really belongs in a Shakespeare play, doesn't she?

Anyway, I've been toying with the idea of "what if" alternate-universe type fan fiction; you know, what might've happened if some small detail had been different. One in particular that creates a lot of possible plot is, What if Miko had missed the sapphire? After all, everyone rolls a natural one sometimes. That would've changed the entire history of the city.

Another "what if" would be if Roy hadn't rebuffed her when she first quasi-apologized to him; you could even have her falling in love with Roy--and the result could be anything from Miko maturing into a less extreme version of herself, to ending up falling thanks to CG-ness, to creating serious trouble for Roy and company because Roy now has a love interest who routinely threatens people with death over mattress tags.

Then there's the little Spot check that Miko makes to notice the crack in the bars... what happens if she stays in the prison throughout the battle? Miko in prison in an Azure City not fallen but probably either under siege or under attack some other way by Xykon and company might be interesting, though you'd have to find a way to head off the inevitable execution.

Miko's life pivots on a lot of little moments like that. It'd be interesting to see what might've happened.

[tahu1809]

She really belongs in a Shakespeare play, doesn't she?

Anyway, I've been toying with the idea of "what if" alternate-universe type fan fiction; you know, what might've happened if some small detail had been different. One in particular that creates a lot of possible plot is, What if Miko had missed the sapphire? After all, everyone rolls a natural one sometimes. That would've changed the entire history of the city.

Another "what if" would be if Roy hadn't rebuffed her when she first quasi-apologized to him; you could even have her falling in love with Roy--and the result could be anything from Miko maturing into a less extreme version of herself, to ending up falling thanks to CG-ness, to creating serious trouble for Roy and company because Roy now has a love interest who routinely threatens people with death over mattress tags.

Then there's the little Spot check that Miko makes to notice the crack in the bars... what happens if she stays in the prison throughout the battle? Miko in prison in an Azure City not fallen but probably either under siege or under attack some other way by Xykon and company might be interesting, though you'd have to find a way to head off the inevitable execution.

Miko's life pivots on a lot of little moments like that. It'd be interesting to see what might've happened.What if she had been standing in front of the thrown instead of behind of it when she smashed the gate? Yes.

[tahu1809]

Another "what if" would be if Roy hadn't rebuffed her when she first quasi-apologized to him; you could even have her falling in love with Roy--and the result could be anything from Miko maturing into a less extreme version of herself, to ending up falling thanks to CG-ness, to creating serious trouble for Roy and company because Roy now has a love interest who routinely threatens people with death over mattress tags.

Sorry for the quasi double post, but this got stuck in my head and I capt wondering Just how some one would wright that?

[Demented]

Miko's life pivots on a lot of little moments like that. It'd be interesting to see what might've happened.

What if she had bothered waiting for the word "explanation" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html)?

[Callista]

See what I mean? It's like she always misses her chance by about half a millimeter...

[Demented]

At least she didn't miss her chance five panels in a row (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html).

[tahu1809]

SO I take it no is going to wright any stores then?

[Djibril]

And what if...:

If (or i might as well say when) Belkar would die he'll probably would go in a place wich of course would be hell for a paladin (hate that word, leaves bad taste in my mouth)

What if Belkar and Miko would meet each other in the after life (Miko been there as a punishment for her mistakes and Belkar... "free killing for all the eternity in a chaotic wasteland? I call that paradise") have an adventure (like Roy had) togheter where Miko regains her status as a p@#*din? Meanwhile we would have a REAL character grow from Belkar (who right now is only faking? And in the worst way)

They might don't like each other but be forced to work togheter in order to accomplish some task wich would resolve with the ressurrection of the two,
and think about it, we would have a really funny arc with a lot of introspection on either part.

I say i might really like it :smallbiggrin:

[Callista]

...well, they do seem to get about the same amount of use out of their Wisdom scores.

[silvadel]

I still think Miko would make a good phantasimal killer.

[rewinn]

She was a well-portrayed characterisation of a gaming situation I loathe, has had her arc and dramatic finale, and any further exposition can only serve to weaken her effectiveness. Rest in pieces, Miko.

Trying to find out "what happens to..." after the hero has fulfilled his or her story (...which Miko did, in a tragic way: screwing everything up when She Was Only Trying To Help ...) usually has only tragic results.

The only really good way this has been resolved in fantasy literature, IMO, is by E.R.Eddison in The Worm Ourobouros. The Heros are sitting around griping that there's no more quest, until someone remembers that the gods owe them a favor .... ...so the gods revive the bad guys and we are basically transported to the beginning of the novel. It's tough nuts for the redshirts, but the heroes are happy!

Then there's Tennyson's Ulysses (http://www.bartleby.com/42/635.html): the hero sets out on Further Adventures saying, "Don't wait up for me kids, I'm probably not coming back" ... and he doesn't.

[Nerdanel]

I think it would have been interesting if Miko had succeeded in her reflex save to evade the explosion. It's possible that she was originally intended to do that and her role was taken over by O-chul due to her unpopularity.

[Amdor]

Why? I like her as she is.

dead ;]


Ya I have to agree with on Miko scrappy-dum still I would like to see her story go on post 464. preferably not as one of the un-dead. I even have some ideas for fan fiction if your interested.

She has good bio for Death Knight ;]
:xykon: "Hey Redclock - I just invented cool new spell. <Utterly Evil Raise Fallen Paladin as Death Knight>"
:redcloak: "It's to long"
:xykon: "And that's why it's so evil"

[HotAndCold]

I think it would have been interesting if Miko had succeeded in her reflex save to evade the explosion. It's possible that she was originally intended to do that and her role was taken over by O-chul due to her unpopularity.

Miko treating the MitD like O-Chul did would take a fair deal of character development for Miko, and then the arc would be more about Miko's character development than it would be about revealing/exploring the MitD's character. And, hey, that could be an interesting arc, but it wouldn't be the same arc.