Thank you for saving us, Court martials all around.

[golentan]

So, I watched the new star trek movie in theaters, and we picked it up again the other night on DVD. And I noticed both times that pretty much the entire named cast who survived till the end performed at least one court martial offense.

Kirk: Mutiny, Dereliction of Duty, Insubordination, Conduct Unbecoming, Stowing away, Assaulting a Superior Officer, Resisting Arrest, and probably half a dozen others. Seriously, there are too many to list.
Spock: Dereliction of Duty, Conduct Unbecoming, Fraternization, Mistreatment of Prisoners.
Old Spock: High Treason, Reckless endangerment. Seriously, he handed nero a superweapon, and then rather than take immediate and direct action to stop him by providing personal information to relevant parties put the entire population of the federation in danger so Young Spock and Kirk could be buddies again. The best I can think of is he gets off on an insanity plea, because his actions were purely insane.
McCoy: Conduct unbecoming, Insubordination, Aiding and Abetting (sneaking kirk onto the enterprise)
Uhura: Misappropriation of classified information (possibly? It seems likely she shouldn't have shared a decrypted enemy transmission with others) Fraternization, Conduct unbecoming
Chekhov: Dereliction of Duty, Conduct Unbecoming, possibly some drug use charges related to stimulants... :smallwink:
Scotty: Insubordination, Dereliction of Duty, Conduct unbecoming.
Pike: Doesn't deserve it, but he'd probably be crucified anyway. Though he had very few alternatives, and did pass along his command by the chain of command when forced to leave, he was the ranking officer at Vulcan, left his post, and gave classified information to a war criminal allowing Nero to assault Earth. Even though this was all under duress, and though he attempted to preserve his command and stop Nero at all points, he'd probably be hung out to dry as a scapegoat. Dereliction, Espionage, Treason.
Sulu:... Is blameless. He followed orders admirably, did his duty, and when given command of the bridge was the ONLY character not to leave it.

So, did I miss any characters or crimes? Any other breaks in willing suspension of disbelief people would like to mention?

[Berserk Monk]

So, did I miss any characters or crimes? Any other breaks in willing suspension of disbelief people would like to mention?

The fact that there wasn't any cheesy fight scenes with horrible fights or guys in bad costume as the aliens. Not to mention the fact that the ships weren't obviously miniatures. And they call that Star Trek

[Seraph]

So, did I miss any characters or crimes? Any other breaks in willing suspension of disbelief people would like to mention?

the fact that the federation had more or less 90 percent of their upperclassmen year of cadets slaughtered, lost a planet and most of a species that signed the federation charter, and is generally less strict all around that they have every justifiable reason not to crucify the group of people responsible for saving the lives of the entire federation?

[golentan]

the fact that the federation had more or less 90 percent of their upperclassmen year of cadets slaughtered, lost a planet and most of a species that signed the federation charter, and is generally less strict all around that they have every justifiable reason not to crucify the group of people responsible for saving the lives of the entire federation?

No, no. Like I said, I'd expect them to crucify PIKE! Maybe throw Kirk to the wolves as well, and make Spock or Sulu the hero of the day, depending on circumstances. And then, since you only need one hero and most of the others played minor roles and had that laundry list of offenses you sweep them up in the internal review.

[chiasaur11]

So, the federation, already in a position ripe for a public relations debacle, should get right on punishing people who will be very much viewed as heroes by the public?

And then they should reward people with a hero's welcome who will very much be saying, basically, "thank you, but it's James T. Kirk who really deserves this."

That'd work great.

[golentan]

Yes, because it's so much better to give a crazy, loose canon control of your flagship, in defiance of centuries of protocol for what to do if you do give such a person a command?

Kirk. Got. Lucky. And he did so while breaking every single rule he could, while ignoring more intelligent options for the things that had to be done. This is not praiseworthy behavior. He committed mutiny at least twice by my count.

The ship may be cohesive, but it's effectively worthless for disciplined action. And an internal review should find this. They didn't even have a clear chain of command in place, allowing a lunatic to effectively hijack the vessel. They should see that the sheer volume of fraternization, insubordination, and dereliction repeatedly compromised the mission at hand. You know, the whole "save the earth" thing? And the destruction of Vulcan gives a legitimate reason to hold the crazy people accountable.

For a moment, please take a step back from the fact that they saved earth at the last minute. Let's assume that the bridge is the white house when a crisis comes in. Do you want the president sitting at his desk coordinating the efforts to save a city, or do you want him tooling off in Air Force 1 to rescue his family, followed by the vice president doing the same, followed by the chief of staff driving down to the airport to welcome them back/see them off? And then the President and the VP run off together to shoot the terrorists personally rather than sending in marines, but put the Secretary of the Interior in charge instead of the Chief of Staff while they're gone.

Meanwhile, the VP tries to start a civil war and flees to mexico, then comes back and the president tries to strangle him before resigning and making him the Prez. And the Prez is sleeping with the secretary of foreign affairs, who he appointed out of favoritism, while the head of the CIA refuses to share information on the folks who leveled Chicago while they are known to be heading for New York, because he hopes that it will make the Prez and VP go off on a road trip together and swap jobs, without evident concern for New York. Which they do.

Because that's a fair comparison for what Spock, Kirk, and Chekhov did. Did it work? Yes. Barely. Do we want these people in office? I sure don't. Your Command Staff is supposed to COMMAND, not throw themselves in harm's way needlessly. It was brave, selfless, heroic, stupid, reckless, and put in harms way the lives of at least 6 billion other people.

Like I said: Thank you for saving us. Here's your medal, this tribunal will decide sentencing after a brief recess.

[Yoren]

I know its Star Trek and its tradition for everyone but the Captain and his officers to be completely useless, but it really bugged me that there are no marines. The whole time I was watching the space jumping scene I kept thinking "Why don't they have anyone trained to do this instead of just pulling random junior officers and tossing them out the back of a shuttle."

Having a platoon of marines on board just makes too much sense i guess. They probably wouldn't have lost the charges by forgetting to pull their chute and they would have been more capable in hand to hand combat since they wouldn't have to split their time learning to pilot/command a starship

[BRC]

I know its Star Trek and its tradition for everyone but the Captain and his officers to be completely useless, but it really bugged me that there are no marines. The whole time I was watching the space jumping scene I kept thinking "Why don't they have anyone trained to do this instead of just pulling random junior officers and tossing them out the back of a shuttle."

Having a platoon of marines on board just makes too much sense i guess. They probably wouldn't have lost the charges by forgetting to pull their chute and they would have been more capable in hand to hand combat since they wouldn't have to split their time learning to pilot/command a starship
Starfleet occupies a grey area between a Military and a science/exploration fleet. Like marine biologists with battleships.

I think they often have some sort of security forces on board the ship, but they seem more like security guards than proper Marines.

The real reason is that, if they had trained marines, there wouldn't be a reason to send high-ranking officers onto dangerous planets every episode.

[warty goblin]

Star Trek: It's like reseach science, but with more Awesome!

Also hot green chicks.

[Jade_Tarem]

I think it was just them taking some of TOS's gimmicks and going too far with them. The rules have never really applied to Kirk.

What was that quote again?

"Prime Directive: No Starfleet personnel are to interfere with the development of a civilization. See exceptions.

Exception 1: Unless, of course, Captain Kirk really, really disagrees with the way that civilization is governed."

At one point in DS9, Captain Sisko mentions something about Captain Kirk's Enterprise to a couple of internal affairs guys, and they just roll their eyes and groan, saying something about how he's violated Starfleet regs with regards to time travel (just time travel, now) eight times. Do we ever see him busted for it? Of course not! He's Captain James T. flipping Kirk!

[chiasaur11]

I think it was just them taking some of TOS's gimmicks and going too far with them.

What was that quote again?

"Prime Directive: No Starfleet personnel are to interfere with the development of a civilization. See exceptions.

Exception 1: Unless, of course, Captain Kirk really, really disagrees with the way that civilization is governed."

More like

"Exception 1: Unless Kirk feels like it for some reason, including 'the local chicks are smoking hot.'"

Rules have never applied to Kirk.

[Lamech]

You can't really court marshal Kirk after he saved earth, by getting the ship turned around. "Your mutiny saved the planet. We sentence you too 50 years." Now one might to move him to a ship that does something unimportant (but cool sounding) and away from everyone else where he can't break stuff. Maybe a exploration craft, that goes into deep space well away from the federation planets or something. You could say its the flagship to make it seem like a reward for a job well done too.

Blaiming Spock. His aid on attacking the enemy ship was essential. With out him they would have wandered around aimlessly, in the gigantic maze of a ship. Kind of needed the mind-meld to steal essential info. The stranding the prisioner was in bad taste, and might get him a repremand or something, but he grabbed the red matter and shot down the drill. So can't really court marshall him. Perhaps he needs to be sent into deep space were he can't break stuff.

Chekov, ran down to the transporter room to save two people and handed command to another presumably equally qualified person. No bad decision there. We note he saved the pilot and Kirk. (Who was essential in saving earth.)

Scotty: Helped Kirk get aboard. Saved the planet. Was told by super-time traveller he need to help to save the world. And his help was again essential to saving the world. Of course, the guy is not up to par. Hey lets "reward" him, by putting him on the flagship. As it goes well away to explore deep space.

Pike: Yeah, not going to blame someone who went to probable death, in order to help Vulcan. How was he supposed to know the enemy ship had a planet buster lying around? He did just fine and won't get court marshelled. Also the enemy ship lacked anti-beaming measures. It couldn't really stand up to a war fleet.

Uhura: Who all saw the kissing? I think Kirk, Spock, and Scotty? They won't mention it. And I doubt the information was classified. Fed isn't a military group. (Note the lack of nukes and marines.)

Old Spock: Yeah... this guy is a little messed up. Of course, I don't think is going to be found out by anyone. "Yeah, umm... I was totally staying behind to manage the teleport. I also know that Spock would have never believed the claim of meeting old me."

So in the end I think that everyone can skate on charges. Quite a few will be "promoted" to a place were they can't do damage. (So they're all going "exploring" in deep space.)

P.S. Also the president analogy is a little off. Those people were more like military officers. Or police officers. Or marine biologists/aid workers.

[kpenguin]

I know its Star Trek and its tradition for everyone but the Captain and his officers to be completely useless, but it really bugged me that there are no marines. The whole time I was watching the space jumping scene I kept thinking "Why don't they have anyone trained to do this instead of just pulling random junior officers and tossing them out the back of a shuttle."

Having a platoon of marines on board just makes too much sense i guess. They probably wouldn't have lost the charges by forgetting to pull their chute and they would have been more capable in hand to hand combat since they wouldn't have to split their time learning to pilot/command a starship

Enterprise had marines on board in the later seasons, I think.

[Jade_Tarem]

Enterprise had marines on board in the later seasons, I think.

Indeed they did - the MACOs. It sounds very reasonable until you realize that they were put there just so that the show could have Red Shirts to kill. (The crew was too small for red shirt deaths up until that point).

[Texas_Ben]

Also the enemy ship lacked anti-beaming measures. It couldn't really stand up to a war fleet.
This is what truly bothered me the most about the new Trek movie... (well besides the extremely stupid "In the distant future... a star goes supernova, threatening the galaxy"... uh, yeah, okay, whatever.)
Anyways, it is well-established in the Trek verse than ship classes remain in service for a long time. A looong time. The Excelsior class of Federation vessels, which was in service while Kirk was around, remained in service throughout the Dominion wars, about 80 years later. The dude's ship was a mining vessel... not a warship. Civillian ships (like mining vessels) wouldn't need to be replaced nearly as often... After all, the main reason to upgrade warships are newer and better weapons, shields, and other combat-related systems. At any rate, you would have to advance significantly in order for a civillian mining vessel to outclass a military ship, let alone a whole task force of them.

Also, said mining ship looked exactly like the bad guy's ship from Galaxy Quest. Just sayin'

[SmartAlec]

I've always thought of Starfleet in Age of Sail terms. That is, during Kirk's era it was all very loose. The lines were drawn against the Klingons. Starfleet Captains are more like privateers, flying the flag of the Federation however they could, and their Admirals very laissez-faire and happy to take good ends for bad means. Orders are often left intentionally vague, and commanding officers are given a lot of discretion. By the time Picard rolls around, things have moved into Golden Age of Sail territory in the 1800s, and Starfleet becomes tighter and more professional as space becomes more orderly.


The Excelsior class of Federation vessels, which was in service while Kirk was around, remained in service throughout the Dominion wars, about 80 years later.

If an Excelsior class ship has remained in service from Kirk's era to Picard's, one assumes it has undergone a lot of overhauls, refits and upgrades in its' service life to bring it up to TNG tech levels. The hull is the same, but the systems would all be completely different.

As far as the ships go, 100 years is a long time in terms of technological development. I think the comparison that someone used when this question was first raised was putting the SS_Iron_Knight (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Iron_Knight) up against the La_Gloire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_battleship_La_Gloire). La Gloire is a warship and the Iron Knight only a merchant transport, but the Iron Knight is much faster, comparatively tougher, and the single gun on the Iron Knight could give the La Gloire a few problems. And that's just 80 years!

So that's the case here. Shipbuilding has moved on by that time. The Narada's shields are likely far in advance of those of the early Federation, its' hull is made of new alloys and compounds unknown to early Federation science, and the weapons it uses are intended to give it a fighting chance against late 24th century pirates. Bearing in mind that this is the paranoid Romulans we're talking about, and I didn't think it inconcievable that a ship of the Romulan mining fleet could take on an early Federation fleet.

[Texas_Ben]

If an Excelsior class ship has remained in service from Kirk's era to Picard's, one assumes it has undergone a lot of overhauls, refits and upgrades in its' service life to bring it up to TNG tech levels. The hull is the same, but the systems would all be completely different.
That's true, but misses the point of what I was saying: That the ship was even still in service tells you that the total difference between tech levels "now" and "then" should not be enough to allow a civilian mining craft to curbstomp an entire Federation task-force.
Consider, if you will, a modern civilian vessel which is for the sake of this discussion armed with modern weapons. Then take it back to WWI. It will acquit itself well against the warships of the time, but won't be able to waltz around destroying Battleships left and right... as soon as a concerted effort is made to eliminate it, it will be eliminated.

[zyphyr]

Your Command Staff is supposed to COMMAND, not throw themselves in harm's way needlessly.

This particular complaint comes 43 years to late. At this point we have 5 TV series (6 if you count the Animated series) and 10 previous movies where the Command staff go running off to solve problems that should be handled by others instead of actually commanding the ship.

While it isn't realistic, it is the nature of this fictional universe.

[Katana_Geldar]

Hey, isn't this the same reason why the victors of a war are not put on trial for war crimes?

[Texas_Ben]

As far as the ships go, 100 years is a long time in terms of technological development. I think the comparison that someone used when this question was first raised was putting the SS_Iron_Knight (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Iron_Knight) up against the La_Gloire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_battleship_La_Gloire). La Gloire is a warship and the Iron Knight only a merchant transport, but the Iron Knight is much faster, comparatively tougher, and the single gun on the Iron Knight could give the La Gloire a few problems. And that's just 80 years!

Ninja edits... so annoying...

Anyways, that's not really a fair comparison since you're looking at ships from different technological eras... I mean the first one you listed has sails, for crying out loud! If there had been any such major shifts in Trekverse tech in the intervening 80 years, the Excelsior class would not still be in operation. Ships still have the same hulls, Have comparable engines, Combat is still done with phasers and photon torpedoes, and shields are still the pirmary defensive weapons.

A much fairer comparison is that of a modern armed merchant vessel with WW1 era navies.

[SmartAlec]

If there had been any such major shifts in Trekverse tech in the intervening 80 years, the Excelsior class would not still be in operation. Ships still have the same hulls, Have comparable engines, Combat is still done with phasers and photon torpedoes, and shields are still the pirmary defensive weapons.

I'm not so sure this is true. Metallurgy comes a long way in the time between TOS and TNG. TNG engines are a lot faster, and their power plants use much more efficient methods, generating a lot more power. This means phasers and photon torpedoes are much deadlier, and have been designed and redesigned to be able to defeat current-tech shields in the most efficient ways possible. Innovations like the quantum torpedo and the pulse phaser have been developed, with the expanded understanding that implies. In response, shields are tougher, more versatile, and might actually be a completely different kind of shield; something's clearly different, if you compare the 'bubbles' of TNG shields to the 'outer layer' of TOS shields. Sensors are much more advanced. So are ship's systems and the main computer. What I'm saying is that although an Excelsior class ship looks the same, what you've got there underneath is a completely different ship.

[Lamech]

That's true, but misses the point of what I was saying: That the ship was even still in service tells you that the total difference between tech levels "now" and "then" should not be enough to allow a civilian mining craft to curbstomp an entire Federation task-force.
Consider, if you will, a modern civilian vessel which is for the sake of this discussion armed with modern weapons. Then take it back to WWI. It will acquit itself well against the warships of the time, but won't be able to waltz around destroying Battleships left and right... as soon as a concerted effort is made to eliminate it, it will be eliminated.

The romulan ship has top of the line explosives. Powerful and from the future. Its a mining vessel, it uses them to blow stuff up. Federation fleet warps in sans shields... and promptly gets murdered by the super advanced explosives. Nothing too mysterious.

OTOH the ship would get obliterated by any real counter attack. A nuke would get beamed aboard. Barring that a few teams of marines would put a damper on the fun. For crying out loud its drill couldn't stand up to hand weapons.

[Tiktakkat]

Federation laws are virtually meaningless.
They exist for nagging lectures, angsty whining, gratuitous plot hooks, and nothing else.
In the rare cases where a sincere criminal shows up, someone inevitably devolves to preachy sypathy, strident and even more preachy victim haranguing, gratuitously plot hooking attempts at pie in the sky rehabilitation (for violent crimes only), or excessive sentences of public service that verge on cruel and unusual while being fundamentally unrealistic exercised under a pretense of judicial irony (non-violent crimes only).
As for military/naval law, the prime directive there is success, with a secondary requirement of no bodies on public display. You can have your way with the Prime Directive the way Kirk has his way with anything reasonably humanoid and female, and as long as there are no significant bodies to clean up, and no record of it, someone will find a way to excuse your behavior.
As it goes, the fact that the Federation only seems to survive because of rampant criminal like Kirk just shows how absurd the whole underlying system is.

[Yoren]

Starfleet occupies a grey area between a Military and a science/exploration fleet. Like marine biologists with battleships.

I think they often have some sort of security forces on board the ship, but they seem more like security guards than proper Marines.

The real reason is that, if they had trained marines, there wouldn't be a reason to send high-ranking officers onto dangerous planets every episode.

While I understand that starfleet isn't purely a military organization and that it's simply the nature of the beast, it still seems prudent (since you're exploring unknown worlds with many possible enemies) to have a force on board trained to deal with messy situations. Hell I'd settle for the security guys being able to do their jobs half-way competently.

[factotum]

Anyways, that's not really a fair comparison since you're looking at ships from different technological eras... I mean the first one you listed has sails, for crying out loud! If there had been any such major shifts in Trekverse tech in the intervening 80 years, the Excelsior class would not still be in operation. Ships still have the same hulls, Have comparable engines, Combat is still done with phasers and photon torpedoes, and shields are still the pirmary defensive weapons.


Well, they added quantum torpedoes to the mix, and the Lakota (an upgraded Excelsior-class ship) was able to fight the Defiant (supposedly the most powerful warship in the quadrant) to a standstill in an episode of DS9. Also, as you say, shields are the primary defensive weapon, and structural integrity fields hold the ship together under extreme accelerations, so it doesn't really matter what it's actually built from--if the enemy's weapons are hitting your hull then you've already lost the fight! (See Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan for a perfect example).

In short, I don't think comparing modern ships is useful here. It would be possible to significantly uprate a Star Trek ship's performance without changing the basic hull, whereas that isn't really true for real-world ships.

[Nerd-o-rama]

golentan: Did you ever watch the 60's TV show? This was peanuts compared to the crap the Enterprise crew pulled pretty much weekly.

Starfleet is a strange and somewhat scary operation. I chalk it up to writers of both neither knowing nor caring how modern militaries work and just wanting to have fun action.

[Asheram]

Starfleet occupies a grey area between a Military and a science/exploration fleet. Like marine biologists with battleships.

Thanks... now you've made me want to watch SeaQuest again. :smalltongue:

[bosssmiley]

Star Trek: It's like research science, but with more Awesome!

That'd be Captain Cook and the like then.

Admiralty survey and exploration missions; Starfleet centuries before the fact :smallwink:

[golentan]

golentan: Did you ever watch the 60's TV show? This was peanuts compared to the crap the Enterprise crew pulled pretty much weekly.

Starfleet is a strange and somewhat scary operation. I chalk it up to writers of both neither knowing nor caring how modern militaries work and just wanting to have fun action.

I've watched a bit of it, and my complaints aren't much changed. The main reason I'm complaining now is that it's supposed to be a more realistic take, which they failed utterly to bring IMO.

But every time a show goes off and has the main cast violating fundamental principles for the plot it irks me. I put on my WSD, and this sort of thing doesn't make me take it off. It comes up to me, knocks it off my head, and starts shouting insults while flipping it the bird. Like in the new battlestar galactica show. When Commander Adama insists on going with the ground force himself, he's a fighter pilot turned capital ship commander. He's also possibly the least replaceable member of the group (see what happened when Tighe took over if you doubt this). And he insists on going to the surface of an unexplored and potentially hostile planet while being led by a known cylon. Who else sees what's wrong with this picture?

This isn't a new complaint for me, I just like to complain about it. It's something I wish that more shows, movies, and what have you would fix.

[Prime32]

As for the mining vessel being a match for Federation fleets, there's a comic which explained this.

Nero's plot began quite a while after the destruction of Romulus, and he had been upgrading his ship over time. Eventually he added modified Borg technology that made him a threat to modern Starfleet ships.

[Asheram]

As for the mining vessel being a match for Federation fleets, there's a comic which explained this.

Nero's plot began quite a while after the destruction of Romulus, and he had been upgrading his ship over time. Eventually he added modified Borg technology that made him a threat to modern Starfleet ships.

I really want to know how Nero managed to catch spock?

Or was it just so that one day when Spock was out, flying around in his "black hole making device", Nero pounced on him?

[Seraph]

As for the mining vessel being a match for Federation fleets, there's a comic which explained this.

Nero's plot began quite a while after the destruction of Romulus, and he had been upgrading his ship over time. Eventually he added modified Borg technology that made him a threat to modern Starfleet ships.

this comic has been declared noncanon. which is good, because that comic was utterly retarded.


seriously, its a romulan mining ship with over a centuries advancement. if any race in star trek is liable to give a mining ship heavy armament with little to no justification, its the Romulans.

[Asheram]

this comic has been declared noncanon. which is good, because that comic was utterly retarded.


seriously, its a romulan mining ship with over a centuries advancement. if any race in star trek is liable to give a mining ship heavy armament with little to no justification, its the Romulans.

Got to beware of those bloody claim jumpers. *nods*

[Texas_Ben]

OTOH the ship would get obliterated by any real counter attack

Except that it didn't, it wiped out the "real counterattack" sent to kill it. Which is what bothers me.

[RabbitHoleLost]

I don't know if anyone mentioned this, but only Spock would be likely to get the Fraternization count, since I think only the higher ranking officer is held at blame.

[Lamech]

Except that it didn't, it wiped out the "real counterattack" sent to kill it. Which is what bothers me.

The klingons? We have no clue what happened with them. For all we know they were trading advanced tech for supplies when the romulans launched their bombs. The Feds? The feds thought they were warping into an aid mission. They probably just like the first ship got locked, shot and effectivly disabled before they knew what was going on. (Even worse with the drill screwing with the sensors. They certainly weren't ready to beam bombs or marines aboard.) We note the enterpirse was hit even though it was ready to fight; the unprepared ships didn't stand a chance.

We don't know about the klingons, but the federation never launched a serious counter attack. No a lone ship crewed by cadets doesn't count. The romulan ship can defeat one of those, if the ship lacks all intel. The "weapons" are of course very powerful. Its a mining ship of course it does a good job of making stuff explode.

[EleventhHour]

We don't know about the klingons, but the federation never launched a serious counter attack. No a lone ship crewed by cadets doesn't count. The romulan ship can defeat one of those, if the ship lacks all intel. The "weapons" are of course very powerful. Its a mining ship of course it does a good job of making stuff explode.

...so the whole wack of ships that got killed before the Enterprise showed up were just... imaginary? :smallconfused:

[golentan]

I don't know if anyone mentioned this, but only Spock would be likely to get the Fraternization count, since I think only the higher ranking officer is held at blame.

I thought that varied situationally.

[Tavar]

...so the whole wack of ships that got killed before the Enterprise showed up were just... imaginary? :smallconfused:

I thought the others explained this well: they warped in with shields down, prepared to aid in an evacuation. They met several torpedo barrages.

[Lamech]

...so the whole wack of ships that got killed before the Enterprise showed up were just... imaginary? :smallconfused:

Umm... they thought that it was a simple aid mission. They probably didn't even have shields up. They were crewed by cadets, who didn't think they had to be about to fire weapons. They were horribly unready. And hence they were destroyed before they could respond. They were most certainly not a counter-attack.

Hmm... I just thought of something funny. Why the hell didn't Spock use transwarp beaming to send Kirk (or someone) to earth? Wasn't Vulcan only a few minutes away from earth? I'm sure that Kirk spent more than that wandering around on the ice world. When they were all back on earth they could point out the doom ship and beam aboard with a team of marines. Then the feds could have advanced weapons tools of peace. And the red matter. And spock's advanced ship.

For crying out loud he could have went and still got Kirk and spock together.

[Megaduck]

I've watched a bit of it, and my complaints aren't much changed. The main reason I'm complaining now is that it's supposed to be a more realistic take, which they failed utterly to bring IMO.


Huh? Realistic?

The command structure is a mess, the ship is even more poorly designed, the supernova threatening the galaxy makes no sense, neither Earth nor Vulcan had any defenses at all, these planets are so close its ludicrous, and that's all just for starters.

The rebooted Star Trek was awesome to watch but it runs on Rule of Cool from beginning to end. I just repeated the MST3K mantra to myself and enjoyed it.

[Tavar]

I don't believe that the supernova threatened the galaxy, only several nearby star systems. Not this makes it much better, but it's not so off base.

[SmartAlec]

The supernova destroying the Romulus system could threaten the entire galaxy politically. Or even economically.

[Lamech]

Huh? Realistic?

The command structure is a mess, the ship is even more poorly designed, the supernova threatening the galaxy makes no sense, neither Earth nor Vulcan had any defenses at all, these planets are so close its ludicrous, and that's all just for starters.

The rebooted Star Trek was awesome to watch but it runs on Rule of Cool from beginning to end. I just repeated the MST3K mantra to myself and enjoyed it.I assumed the star had some sort of explodium involved in its explosion. Like blue matter or something was in its core and about to go critical.

[factotum]

Why the hell didn't Spock use transwarp beaming to send Kirk (or someone) to earth? Wasn't Vulcan only a few minutes away from earth?

No, it isn't. You're confusing the fictional planet Vulcan from Star Trek with the equally fictional planet Vulcan which supposedly orbits between Mercury and the Sun.

[SurlySeraph]

@^: Warp travel. That Vulcan could be a few minutes away from Earth by warp travel.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I've watched a bit of it, and my complaints aren't much changed. The main reason I'm complaining now is that it's supposed to be a more realistic take, which they failed utterly to bring IMO.Who ever said they were trying to do that? When has Star Trek ever tried to be realisitic? They can't even manage internal self-consistency most of the time and seem to be well aware of that fact.

New Trek was an attempt to be more entertaining than the last couple of snoozefest Trek movies*, not more realistic. I can't recall anyone ever claiming it was more realistic.

*I liked parts of Nemesis, but only the parts that were lifted directly from Wrath of Khan. Which was another movie that made no sense but damn it was fun to watch.

[Keshay]

My biggest problem with the remake was, after the destruction of Vulcan, Spock declaring that 90%(?) of the Vulcan population had been wiped out.

Really? 90% you say?

Your people have had the capacity for interstellar travel for upwards of a millenium and only 10% of your population has settled off-world? That seems... illogical.

That and the fact that Sarek was chilling on Vulcan. The guy is the Vulcan Ambasador to the Federation, shouldn't he be on Earth?

Old Spock choosing to be mysteryous and cryptic in order to preserve teh Temporal Prime Directive was fine and all, but then he does an about-face at the end and reveals himself to his younger self, just in time to be of absolutely no help. That too seems illogical.

[factotum]

@^: Warp travel. That Vulcan could be a few minutes away from Earth by warp travel.

Seems unlikely, considering what Kirk had the time to do after being abandoned on the ice moon and before getting transported back aboard the Enterprise--which was still nowhere near Earth at the time!

Mind you, that brings to mind another question. As Keshay points out, 90% of the Vulcan population were killed when their planet went up, and yet there is a completely uninhabited (yet habitable) world close enough to see Vulcan clearly in the daytime sky. Furthermore, the only problem with said world was that it's a bit chilly, and I'm sure some major carbon dioxide-producing industry on the surface for a few centuries would fix that problem--so it makes the failure of the Vulcans to spread out more even less explicable.

[Harr]

I've watched a bit of it, and my complaints aren't much changed. The main reason I'm complaining now is that it's supposed to be a more realistic take, which they failed utterly to bring IMO.


Uh, no. You're confusing the Star Trek reboot with the Batman reboot.

Not every 'reboot' automatically has to try to be "more realistic", and in Star Trek's case it definitely wasn't... at any point in time. It's J. J. Abrams, for pete's sake :smallsigh: More realism was never a concern.

[Harr]

My biggest problem with the remake was, after the destruction of Vulcan, Spock declaring that 90%(?) of the Vulcan population had been wiped out.

Really? 90% you say?

Your people have had the capacity for interstellar travel for upwards of a millenium and only 10% of your population has settled off-world? That seems... illogical.


I found this to actually be pretty spot-on... consider that the vulcans, like their elven counterparts in fantasy, are traditionally quietly racist (though of course that's not what they call it in the show), going as far as to call Spock's human half a handicap and so on and so forth. That only a small minority of them would have ventured out into space to mix in with the lower lifeforms actually strikes me as well within their characterization.

Your other points about the ambassador and Spock's revealing etc. I do agree with though.

[golentan]

Uh, no. You're confusing the Star Trek reboot with the Batman reboot.

Not every 'reboot' automatically has to try to be "more realistic", and in Star Trek's case it definitely wasn't... at any point in time. It's J. J. Abrams, for pete's sake :smallsigh: More realism was never a concern.

Well, excuse me... I was told by everyone who saw it before me that they were clearing out the Zeerust and the bad physics, making starfleet more militarily accurate, and making anything that still fell in those categories a big black box with plot effects (red matter) rather than trying to technobabble it away in a manner that would make a gradeschooler facepalm.

Which reminds me, have a picard.

............................................______ __
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.........../(_...."~,_........"~,_....................,:`..... ..._/
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.............\`~.*-,.....................................|,./.....\,__
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The movie was way more accessible, but still had bad physics and doctrine, and left plot holes wide enough to fly the Nerada through. It was a good movie, but I still get upset. So maybe the problem is with Fan hype, but I still feel entitled to whine about plot holes. After all, without criticism the next movie will never get any better.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Well, excuse me... I was told by everyone who saw it before me that they were clearing out the Zeerust and the bad physics, making starfleet more militarily accurate, and making anything that still fell in those categories a big black box with plot effects (red matter) rather than trying to technobabble it away in a manner that would make a gradeschooler facepalm.

Which reminds me, have a picard.

............................................______ __
....................................,.-'"...................``~.,
.............................,.-"..................................."-.,
.........................,/...............................................":,
.....................,?........................... ...........................\,
.................../.................................................. .........,}
................./.................................................. ....,:`^`..}
.............../.................................................. .,:"........./
..............?.....__............................ .............:`.........../
............./__.(....."~-,_..............................,:`........../
.........../(_...."~,_........"~,_....................,:`..... ..._/
..........{.._$;_......"=,_......."-,_.......,.-~-,},.~";/....}
...........((.....*~_......."=-._......";,,./`..../"............../
...,,,___.\`~,......"~.,....................`..... }............../
............(....`=-,,.......`........................(......;_,,-"
............/.`~,......`-...............................\....../\
.............\`~.*-,.....................................|,./.....\,__
,,_..........}.>-._\...................................|........... ...`=~-,
.....`=~-,_\_......`\,.................................\
...................`=~-,,.\,...............................\
................................`:,,.............. .............`\..............__
.....................................`=-,...................,%`>--==``
........................................_\........ ..._,-%.......`\
...................................,<`.._|_,-&``................`

The movie was way more accessible, but still had bad physics and doctrine, and left plot holes wide enough to fly the Nerada through. It was a good movie, but I still get upset. So maybe the problem is with Fan hype, but I still feel entitled to whine about plot holes. After all, without criticism the next movie will never get any better.

I am one hundred percent agreeing with your Picard there. The people who hyped it up to you were clearly not paying attention. It's a good movie, but that description is completely inaccurate.

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

Wait, when does Old Spock give anybody the red matter? He's using it for entirely legitimate purposes, then is captured and has it taken from him by Nero.

[golentan]

Wait, when does Old Spock give anybody the red matter? He's using it for entirely legitimate purposes, then is captured and has it taken from him by Nero.

And fails to attempt to keep it from falling into nero's hands. Not launching it at nero, not self destructing, not even taking a wrench to the containment systems.

[taltamir]

Am I the only one bothered by it being kirks DESTINY to lead?
Even if in the original timeline he was raised by his father who was a huge influence on him in becoming a fleet officer.
And now his father was dead before he war born and had completely different personality?


My biggest problem with the remake was, after the destruction of Vulcan, Spock declaring that 90%(?) of the Vulcan population had been wiped out.

Really? 90% you say?

Your people have had the capacity for interstellar travel for upwards of a millenium and only 10% of your population has settled off-world? That seems... illogical.

That and the fact that Sarek was chilling on Vulcan. The guy is the Vulcan Ambasador to the Federation, shouldn't he be on Earth?

Old Spock choosing to be mysteryous and cryptic in order to preserve teh Temporal Prime Directive was fine and all, but then he does an about-face at the end and reveals himself to his younger self, just in time to be of absolutely no help. That too seems illogical.

Have a cookie, you win the internet.


@OP, they can't execute old spock, he brings technology from the far far future! Think of how much faster we could conquer everyone else with his knowledge :)

[Avilan the Grey]

Btw:
Did anyone but me notice that the big red bug thingie is an obvious Spore creature?

Oh and the green chick was hawt. Someone had to say it :smallbiggrin:

[taltamir]

Btw:
Did anyone but me notice that the big red bug thingie is an obvious Spore creature?

Oh and the green chick was hawt. Someone had to say it :smallbiggrin:

wasn't kirk banging green chicks before he was even a cadet?

[Avilan the Grey]

wasn't kirk banging green chicks before he was even a cadet?

Not in this movie. The first green chick he bangs is his fellow cadet.

[Lamech]

Seems unlikely, considering what Kirk had the time to do after being abandoned on the ice moon and before getting transported back aboard the Enterprise--which was still nowhere near Earth at the time!


Yeah, because when Spock was commanding the enterprise they weren't going to earth. So after how ever long they spent not going to earth, they obviously hadn't reached earth. Anyway, I could have sworn when they were launching they said Vulcan was like... seven minutes away. And I'm assuming Kirk spent longer on the ice world... so combine the two and earth is in beaming range.

[Storm Bringer]

i'd argue that spocks father being on vulcan at a arbitary point in time (ie. when he had no pressing reason to be elsewhere, pior to the emergency starting) is not unrealistic, in that his job as ambassador would require a large amount of 'face time' with both the vulcan and federation leaders. considering how quickly the ships were able to make transit between earth and vulcan ( a matter of minutes as best speed), traveling between the two would be very easy and shuttle dipolmacy a rational, workable option. The fact that he was on vulcan at the time the S**t hit the fan was just chance

this is assuming that spocks father was still the ambassador at that point. 26 years is more than enough time to have moved into another, vulcan based role. Given the apparent age that vulcans can live to (still active at over 160, in Old Spocks case) It could be that he's worked his way though many jobs before settling into a role with the council of elders.

why his mother was present in the vulcan chamber of elders (or whatever that cave was) is another, more improtant question.

[Krrth]

Where are we getting this "Earth and Vulcan are minutes apart"? Warp 5.2 is approximately 140 times the speed of light. Vulcan is around 16 light years away from Earth. Unless my math is off, that means that at that speed Vulcan is about a month away. Even at higher speeds, that's far more than 7 minutes.

[Keshay]

Btw:
Did anyone but me notice that the big red bug thingie is an obvious Spore creature?

Oh and the green chick was hawt. Someone had to say it :smallbiggrin:

The Ice planet monster reminded me of an Ethereal Flitcher (at least I think that's what I thought it looked like, I'll have to re-check my Monster Manuals). Regardless, it heavily reminded me of a D&D monster.

Also, fun fact: Green-skinned chick was Scarlett from the GI Joe movie. And yes, green skin or no, she's hot.

[Parra]

Unless my math is off, that means that at that speed Vulcan is about a month away. Even at higher speeds, that's far more than 7 minutes.

you forgot the plot factor your calculations i.e. it takes as long as the storyteller says so

[Krrth]

you forgot the plot factor your calculations i.e. it takes as long as the storyteller says so

Not really. While B5 ran off of the speed of plot the newer Trek movies tried to be more consistent.

[SmartAlec]

Where are we getting this "Earth and Vulcan are minutes apart"? Warp 5.2 is approximately 140 times the speed of light. Vulcan is around 16 light years away from Earth. Unless my math is off, that means that at that speed Vulcan is about a month away. Even at higher speeds, that's far more than 7 minutes.

Is that according to the TNG warp scale, numbered 1 to 10, or the TOS warp scale, numbered from 1 to 13+?

[Storm Bringer]

I think were working off the script here. where checkov, during his shipwide announcment, moments after leaving earth, says somthing along the lines of:

"our ETA is aproximatly 3 minutes."

[Krrth]

Is that according to the TNG warp scale, numbered 1 to 10, or the TOS warp scale, numbered from 1 to 13+?

ToS/Enterprise scale, since that's the time period in discussion. TnG retconned the old 13+ down to lower levels.

Stormbringer: It's been a while since I've seen the movie. Was that a few moments IRL or in movie? I seem to recall thinking that time had passed off screen before that comment had made

[Parra]

if any time had passed it was only a few short minutes. If you think about it, what sort of mission brief is given less than 3 minutes from arrival? especially if that misson travel time took hours or longer?

It definatly gives the impression that the ship is literally breaking orbit and ~3 minutes later (or however long he said) will be in the vulcan system. As I dont doubt your warp-speed/distance calc the only explination was that the ship was traveling at plot speed.

Its happened many times before in films and series. Distance and warp speed in the trekky verse are variable things

[Megaduck]

I will point out that Kirk was Sedated when the Enterprise was jumping out and woke up before they arrived. Also Mccoy had time to change clothes. That would be 2-4 hours between Earth and Vulcan.

[golentan]

Btw:
Did anyone but me notice that the big red bug thingie is an obvious Spore creature?

I was wondering about that. It makes a certain amount of sense: for 20 bucks and a thirty minute investment, you can create a Maya exportable critter with some basic texturing and animation that you can expand upon with more advanced programs. It takes out a lot of the gruntwork.

[Krrth]

if any time had passed it was only a few short minutes. If you think about it, what sort of mission brief is given less than 3 minutes from arrival? especially if that misson travel time took hours or longer?

It definatly gives the impression that the ship is literally breaking orbit and ~3 minutes later (or however long he said) will be in the vulcan system. As I dont doubt your warp-speed/distance calc the only explination was that the ship was traveling at plot speed.

Its happened many times before in films and series. Distance and warp speed in the trekky verse are variable things


The kind of mission brief given by someone trying to make sure all the cadets were aboard, the ships were fueled, supplied, and space worthy? That the necessary crew were in the right place? Frankly the cadets didn't need to know what they were doing until just before they arrived.

While Trek has fudged the numbers on warp travel, I came out of that scene with the impression that they fast-forwarded through the time between breaking orbit and arriving.

[Texas_Ben]

While Trek has fudged the numbers on warp travel, I came out of that scene with the impression that they fast-forwarded through the time between breaking orbit and arriving.

As they usually do. But for some reason it felt really abrupt, which is wierd because usually you do get the feeling they've traveled a bit to get there even though they arrive in the next scene. Now that I'm thinking about it, I don't know how they do that.

Time to binge on trek to see if I can find out.

[Nerd-o-rama]

As they usually do. But for some reason it felt really abrupt, which is wierd because usually you do get the feeling they've traveled a bit to get there even though they arrive in the next scene. Now that I'm thinking about it, I don't know how they do that.

Time to binge on trek to see if I can find out.Somewhere, some editor at Paramount is smirking and saying "Just As Planned".

[factotum]

I will point out that Kirk was Sedated when the Enterprise was jumping out and woke up before they arrived. Also Mccoy had time to change clothes. That would be 2-4 hours between Earth and Vulcan.

Not to mention the point I made earlier--namely, when the Enterprise was heading in the other direction (from Vulcan to Earth) Kirk had time to do a heck of a lot of stuff before Scotty beamed him back aboard.

[Lamech]

Not to mention the point I made earlier--namely, when the Enterprise was heading in the other direction (from Vulcan to Earth) Kirk had time to do a heck of a lot of stuff before Scotty beamed him back aboard.
When Kirk was on the ice planet, the enterprise was heading to the fleet. NOT TO EARTH.

[taltamir]

Where are we getting this "Earth and Vulcan are minutes apart"? Warp 5.2 is approximately 140 times the speed of light. Vulcan is around 16 light years away from Earth. Unless my math is off, that means that at that speed Vulcan is about a month away. Even at higher speeds, that's far more than 7 minutes.

YOU did the math, the authors did not.

[warty goblin]

YOU did the math, the authors did not.

Indeed. It's common knowledge that when you become a screenwriter, the Guild trepans into your skull, then sticks an eggbeater in there, sets it on puree, and runs it around until you require reference tables to compute 2+2. Sometimes the surgeon's hand twitches, and "Ol' Scrambler" hits the Plot part of the brain. This explains things like National Treasure.

Uwe Boll was the result of an experimental procedure involving explosives.

[Avilan the Grey]

The Ice planet monster reminded me of an Ethereal Flitcher (at least I think that's what I thought it looked like, I'll have to re-check my Monster Manuals). Regardless, it heavily reminded me of a D&D monster.

Also, fun fact: Green-skinned chick was Scarlett from the GI Joe movie. And yes, green skin or no, she's hot.

I have never seen a picture of one of those. But I recognize the body parts from Spore.

...GI Joe movie? Hmm... No, I don't think I will watch that regardless :smalltongue:

[Parra]

The kind of mission brief given by someone trying to make sure all the cadets were aboard, the ships were fueled, supplied, and space worthy? That the necessary crew were in the right place? Frankly the cadets didn't need to know what they were doing until just before they arrived.

In order of events:
Kirk is drugged and flown up to Enterprise
Mere moments after he arrives in sickbay he hears Checkov's ship-wide announcement (eta 3 minutes to vulcan etc)
He stomps onto the bridge and convinces Pike of a potential trap.

That doesnt leave alot of wiggle room for the "they spent ages traveling that we just didnt see" idea. I agree its silly and it should have taken alot longer, hours if not days (or weeks) to reach Vulcan but thats how the storey was shown

[Storm Bringer]

In order of events:
Kirk is drugged and flown up to Enterprise
Mere moments after he arrives in sickbay he hears Checkov's ship-wide announcement (eta 3 minutes to vulcan etc)
He stomps onto the bridge and convinces Pike of a potential trap.

That doesnt leave alot of wiggle room for the "they spent ages traveling that we just didnt see" idea. I agree its silly and it should have taken alot longer, hours if not days (or weeks) to reach Vulcan but thats how the storey was shown

to be fiar, thier's a possible time skip between kirk passing out (just after leaving) and chekov begining his speech (moments before arrival). may not be long, or very explicit, but it's about the only place to stick one.

[Megaduck]

In order of events:
Kirk is drugged and flown up to Enterprise
Mere moments after he arrives in sickbay he hears Checkov's ship-wide announcement (eta 3 minutes to vulcan etc)
He stomps onto the bridge and convinces Pike of a potential trap.

That doesnt leave alot of wiggle room for the "they spent ages traveling that we just didnt see" idea. I agree its silly and it should have taken alot longer, hours if not days (or weeks) to reach Vulcan but thats how the storey was shown

You're missing a few points.

Kirk is infected and flown up to Enterprise. (Bones is in Red Cadet uniform)
Kirk is sedated falls asleep.
(Scene change)
Checkov begins his shipwide broadcast, 3 min to Vulcan. Kirk wakes up. (Bones is in a blue medical uniform.)

The time jump is right after kirk is sedated. Remember Bones says "Oh good, you're awake" which implies Kirks been asleep for a while.

[Parra]

Kirk is sedated falls asleep.
(Scene change)


I dont remember him losing conciousness at any point, but I will check again when Im home later

[Nerd-o-rama]

Indeed. It's common knowledge that when you become a screenwriter, the Guild trepans into your skull, then sticks an eggbeater in there, sets it on puree, and runs it around until you require reference tables to compute 2+2. Sometimes the surgeon's hand twitches, and "Ol' Scrambler" hits the Plot part of the brain. This explains things like National Treasure.Hey. I liked National Treasure. It was like The Da Vinci Code except with the sense not to take itself seriously.

[Lamech]

Hmm... they should have been more specific about the time skip. The way it was done it seemed very short. Especially when we compare it to how long Kirk was wandering around in iceland. (Alternativly they could have had Old Spock port to earth.)

[Parra]

Kirk is sedated falls asleep.
(Scene change)



I dont remember him losing conciousness at any point, but I will check again when Im home later

just rewatched that scene.

It starts with the shuttle doing a flyby of Enterprise, both McCoy and Kirk are looking out the window. Kirk is awake and gives a "wow" as they they go past.

Just after they dock it cuts to Spock arriving on the Bridge and Pike giving orders to leave space dock (and the oh so funny, I cant activate the warp engines moment)

Next scene is Kirk and McCoy arriving in the medical bay. Again Kirk is awake, if quite spaced out, and is chatting away with McCoy and flirting with a nurse. McCoy gives Kirk a sedative, knocking him out.

Switch back to the Bridge and Sulu announces "we have just reached maximum warp now sir" followed by Pike asking Checkov to do his ship-wide mission briefing. Back to sick bay and kirk pops awake ranting about lightning storm.


Now all of that to me suggests a matter of minutes rather than hours or days. Never at anypoint in any Star Trek film or series has it taken more than a few minutes for any ship to reach is max speed. Given the speed in which we see spock traveling to the bridge, to engines engaging, to reach maximum warp +3 minutes to reach Vulcan I woud estimate the journay to at maximum 20 minutes. Heck 30min to be nice. Thats a damn sight shorter that the hours/days/weeks a trip to vulcan should have taken.

If there was some sort of time delay that we just didn't see it was probably because they didn't show it.

[taltamir]

Indeed. It's common knowledge that when you become a screenwriter, the Guild trepans into your skull, then sticks an eggbeater in there, sets it on puree, and runs it around until you require reference tables to compute 2+2. Sometimes the surgeon's hand twitches, and "Ol' Scrambler" hits the Plot part of the brain. This explains things like National Treasure.

Uwe Boll was the result of an experimental procedure involving explosives.

hillariously true...

although Uwe Boll actually was abusing a german tax loophole... they made a government tax credit to german investors in failed movies.
Basically the more money the movie LOST, the more money uwe boll and his german investors "made" off of the german tax payer.

[FoE]

Is the actual distance to Vulcan ever expressed in the film? Or the Enterprise's maximum warp speed?

[Soras Teva Gee]

You know the 3 minutes thing doesn't even check out based on the events that occur after it. It takes a little over 4 minutes (yes I checked) with Kirk covering a rather implausible amount of territory in that time too. Clearly this is abysmal film making!

Now seriously folks we probably should not take this too seriously. Star Trek has never been hard sci-fi in any generation.

Honestly the only thing that really bothered me logically was throwing the entire academy onto ships for an undefined alert from Vulcan. What kind of leadership uses its trainees at the drop of a hat like that. Or are we expected to believe that most the the Enterprise's crew is made up of cadets and there was no other personnel available.

[Parra]

I believe te excuse was something like "the bulk of our fleet is tied up in the XYZ system" or something to that effect

[Megaduck]

Honestly the only thing that really bothered me logically was throwing the entire academy onto ships for an undefined alert from Vulcan. What kind of leadership uses its trainees at the drop of a hat like that. Or are we expected to believe that most the the Enterprise's crew is made up of cadets and there was no other personnel available.

Actually that was one of the things in the movie that made sense to me. (Lets face it, the Enterprise has always moved at the speed of plot.)

Vulcan is experiencing earthquakes (Well... Vulcanquakes... you know what I mean) so StarFleet command decides to gain some publicity points by sending the graduating class out on disaster relief.

This actually happens in real life. The state and national guard will happily send out trainees in case of emergency.

It gets good publicity and it's not really dangerous work most of the time. You fill sandbags, shore up walls, and whatever else needs to be doing next to the civilian volunteers.

I can very much see StarFleet deciding to send their graduating class out to get some real world experience in a relatively safe situation. After all, Vulcan is deep in federation space, it's well developed, it has good infrastructure and probably a highly trained disaster response unit as well. What could go wrong?

It's the same was as when the Mississippi floods states will ask for emergency aid from the national guard.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Interesting and could prove a viable explanation if played a bit differently. The plot is too crisis oriented and hurried, natural disaster while emergencies are I don't know almost routine. And fridge logic hits when they are apparently operating a highly technical piece of equipment (a starship namely) not purely menial things like stacking sandbags, though Starfleet apparently has some pretty good "sets" for simulation equipment.

It still bugs me for the lack of explanation as to why these cadets are being sent. It could have been done and wasn't and doesn't rely on say one persons decisions like all the promotions do.

[Texas_Ben]

I believe te excuse was something like "the bulk of our fleet is tied up in the XYZ system" or something to that effect

They always seem to be... Remember in Generations? They launched the Enterprise B from a spacedock in the Sol system, and never left it (no warp drive, they were going to pluto and back), and yet when some anomalous energy ribbon comes calling, they are "the only ship in the sector"

[Storm Bringer]

i understood the cadets thing as being starfleet reciving a distres call form vulcan, and immidatly deployiing the ships it had in earth orbit in a 'fast responce' role (ie. get someone on site to do what they can while more suitable units are brought in). (this would explain where all the starships that should have been guarding earth are, they got blown up over vulcan)

however, some of the ships in earth orbit were in in refit/maintainace/whatever, and some of thier crew had been sent of leave back to wherever their home planets were.

Thus, starfleet plugged gaps in the existing crew rosters with cadets as a 'stopgap' mesure. you'll note that Uhura replaces a full liutenant on the comms station, bones is the second mecial officer with a unseen senior doctor (who eats hard vacumn). Also of note is the scene in the shuttle hanger on earth, where the cadets are being assigned their ships, you'll note it only sounds like a few cadets of any given class are going to each vessel.

the enterprise, as a ship that is still in it's 'shakedown' period and was rushed into service for the crisis, would likey have a much smaller crew on it than at the time of the crisis (while a full crew would have been planned, they wouldn't be aboard and maay still be tied to other duties), so would likey have recieved a larger share of the cadets.

[factotum]

Vulcan is experiencing earthquakes (Well... Vulcanquakes... you know what I mean) so StarFleet command decides to gain some publicity points by sending the graduating class out on disaster relief.


And the people on Vulcan never noticed that these earthquakes were being caused by a massive beam being fired from a six-mile-wide ship in orbit?

[Megaduck]

And the people on Vulcan never noticed that these earthquakes were being caused by a massive beam being fired from a six-mile-wide ship in orbit?

Sure they did, they're communications were just cut off by the effects of the drill.

But wait, if they're communications were cut off how did they send the original distress call in the first place. And is they sent the call before the drill was turned on why were they reporting quakes caused by the drill?

It just makes more questions! :smallfurious:


On a similar note, where were Vulcan's defenses? Their defense fleet, orbital forts, or whatnot?

[Storm Bringer]

On a similar note, where were Vulcan's defenses? Their defense fleet, orbital forts, or whatnot?

possible answers:

the fleet got pwned by the awesome firepower of the future ship ( it could have downed the newest flagship of starfleet in about two hits)

Vulcans, being 'above' such things as violence, had no orbital defenses, as their planet was deep in the core of the federation and felt safe form any potential threats.

any ships normally assigned to guard the planet were called away by whatever crisis it was that tied up the rest of starfleets coreworld assets.


actually, thinking about it, the enterprise is what, 30 seconds slower off the mark than the rest of the fleet? yet by the time enterprise get thier, every other federation ship has already been hulked. either the rolumans have some stupid amounts of firepower they never use agian (even with an panic order like "FIRE EVERTHING!" being given), or the enterprise is a lot slower than the rest of the fleet.