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Narazil
2009-11-21, 09:53 PM
Hey guys. So, I might be joining an ECL 7 high-power Campaign, where our DM has encouarged us to be munchkins.

I know the usual Batman rout, but here's the kicker: Instead of taking a level as Wizard, you can take a Feat/Caster/Skill Focus Level, yielding either 3 Feats, 2 Caster Levels or a lot of skillpoints.
These levels, however, don't advance BB, saves, only gives con mod hp and int mod skillpoints.

Sources allowed are Wizards, no homebrew or 3rd party.

How would you build a 7th level Human Wizard, with the Focus Levels in mind?

The Glyphstone
2009-11-21, 09:55 PM
Caster levels or Spell levels? If the former, forget anything related to Focus Levels and keep your delicious 4th level spells. If the latter...1 level of Wizard and 6 levels of Focus gets you 7th level spells, with which you can simply decimate everything.

UglyPanda
2009-11-21, 09:55 PM
Munchkinism != Optimization

The difference between an optimizer and a powergamer is that a powergamer thinks that the RPG is competitive and not cooperative. The difference between a munchkin and a powergamer is that a munchkin will cheat, use shady rule interpretations, and/or exploit things that were clearly meant to be errata'd or were already errata'd.

Narazil
2009-11-21, 10:10 PM
Munchkinism != Optimization

The difference between an optimizer and a powergamer is that a powergamer thinks that the RPG is competitive and not cooperative. The difference between a munchkin and a powergamer is that a munchkin will cheat, use shady rule interpretations, and/or exploit things that were clearly meant to be errata'd or were already errata'd.
Well, powergamer. Sorry for using the wrong term.
I guess the correct way of phrasing Caster Focus Level is that it advances spells twice as fast as normal, so level 1 Wizard/level 1 Caster Focus (Wizard) would have the same spells known and spells per day as a third level Wizard, but saves / skills / feats as a level 1.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-21, 10:16 PM
Definitely take the alternate levels. This isn't even a question. Do it right and nothing can touch you. Like, literally. And even if you die, you'll just be back again next round.

Feel free to break the game in however many pieces you find fitting.

There are tons of ways to do so, even in just core.

Can you get access to things like shadowcraft mage and IoSV?

Can you take 10 levels in wizard (thereby getting 9th level spells), then go 10 in archivist (doing the same)?

Something makes me think that your DM doesn't know what he's asking for.

Yukitsu
2009-11-21, 10:18 PM
Take 6 alternates and 1 real. You'll be able to cast as a 13th level caster, which means you can start simulacrum shenanigans right now.

Tavar
2009-11-21, 10:18 PM
I'm not sure I would go all caster levels, but doing even 4 caster/4wizard levels gives you a effective wizard level of 11 for spells, which means 6th level spells. At that point, it really starts to be rocket tag, and since you still count as a level 7 in terms of ECL, you can decimate everything.

Kylarra
2009-11-21, 10:22 PM
Yeah... 7th level spells at level 7 is ridiculous.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-21, 10:25 PM
Ooh! Wizard 1/psion 2/cerebremancer, with early-entry shenananananigans. Then take ur-priest, archivist, and mystic theurge.

Make sure to take Practiced Spellcaster and Practiced Manifester.

Narazil
2009-11-21, 10:25 PM
DM knows exactly what's coming for him, and he's optimizing encounters accordingly.
1 Level Wizard and 6 levels of alternate will probably pop out something with Improved Invisibility and extremely long range. Only has to hit me for ~15 HP.

Edit: IotSV I think is go, Shadowmage is not. Neither is Incantrix.

Eldariel
2009-11-21, 10:26 PM
Yeah, by far the best option seems to be Wizard 1/Focus Caster 6. Though once you reach 9th level spells, go full Incantatrix (if not allowed, Swiftblade seems fairly good to break action economy, or Dweomerkeeper for silliness). Also, get 18 Con; while 2.5 HP per level doesn't feel like much, giving it up means you really need crap for HP.

Dragonborn Lesser Tiefling would be a superb race; you lose the tasty racials of a Lesser Tiefling, but you get +2 Con, +2 Int, -2 Cha. This would enable 20 Int & Con with rest going to Dex. That means you've got CL 13. Which means 7th level spells. You'll also early qualify for Craft Contingent Spell on level 6 to save your arse.


Then you need to make heavy use of Contingency, Contingent Spells, Greater Mirror Image and company to stay alive, and use stuff like Superior Resistance, Heart of X-spells and company to make sure you're either immune or can save against everything (oh, and Celerity is pretty good). False Life is an excellent spell too; Eternal Wand it if you ban Necromancy.

Oh yeah, and specialize in Conjuration, banning e.g. Enchantment and Necromancy (or if using Craft Contingent Spell, ban Evocation). Pick Abrupt Jaunt from PHBII; it's a very decent instantaneous defense. Pick up Obtain Familiar and have it use Wands or some such.


This leaves you with:
4+5x7 = 39 HP. Some Con boosters can up that though. For the record, an average Fighter 7 has 57 HP (14 Con), so you aren't that horribly off.
7x4+5x6 = 58 skill points. Pick up Concentration, Spellcraft, some Knowledges and maybe Tumble/UMD and call it a day.

+5 Fort
+X Ref where X is your Dex
+X Will (might want to get Keen Intellect to add Int to Will-saves given your lack of class-based boosts)

With Superior Resistance (level 6 spell), they're all +6. You can also get Conviction for additional +3 and maybe a Luckblade or some such (if you're way above average wealth) for +1 + a reroll. Of course, optimally you'll want to avoid rolling saves, but given mostly opposing casters force them, they can counteract your avoidance (though e.g. Battlemagic Perception can help a lot there). Contingent Energy Resistance should obviate the need for a save on a chunk of Ref-save targeting spells.

Stuff like Overland Flight, Phantom Steed and so on should make sure you're hard to reach and some Initiative enhancers should make you able to beat Archers' initiative into Wind Wall. Your offense should be the normal Wizard fare; make sure to pick up Quicken as you'll have spell levels to burn. And yeah, you'll want flaws to roll with it.


So yeah, make sure to use spells to stay alive and to bone the living out of everything that moves (or doesn't, for that matter). And go to town. Oh yeah, and immunities, invisibility and company are your friends.

ocdscale
2009-11-21, 10:26 PM
Yeah, I think Glyphstone has the right idea. Hard to beat level 7 spells (even if it means giving up on all feats)
As a thought experiment, is there any way that someone not opting for level 7 spells can remain competitive with someone who does? Level 6 spells with 3 extra feats?

Narazil
2009-11-21, 10:28 PM
Eldariel - Where's Dragonborn from? :/

Kylarra
2009-11-21, 10:28 PM
Only has to hit me for ~15 HP.
You'd only have 15 more hp if you took normal wizard levels, aka "not enough to make a difference".

Eldariel
2009-11-21, 10:28 PM
Eldariel - Where's Dragonborn from? :/

Races of the Dragon. Lesser Tiefling is from Player's Guide to Faerun.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-21, 10:29 PM
Yeah, I think Glyphstone has the right idea. Hard to beat level 7 spells (even if it means giving up on all feats/skills)
As a thought experiment, is there any way that someone not opting for level 7 spells can remain competitive with someone who does? Level 6 spells with 3 extra feats?You can if you optimize vs the uber-caster who otherwise doesn't.

Wizards are gods, if they choose to be. Infinite wishes by level 1. Legally.

rockdeworld
2009-11-21, 10:31 PM
Thinks to self: (Have I started a trend with DMs allowing twinking?)

Kylarra
2009-11-21, 10:32 PM
For amusing thought experiment, instead of a wizard, play a sorcerer.

Dragonwrought Loredrake kobold sorc 1/focused 6.

You have 15th level casting thanks to 1 + 6*2 (focused) + 2 (loredrake).

Go nuts with 8th level spells at level 8, next level you have 9th level spells and 19th level casting. Proceed to do whatever the hell you want with the remaining levels.

Actually, if you're not required to take the first level of the caster class (and you use this method), switch it out for say warblade 1 so that you get 12+ con hp at the first level which will buffer you as well as just taking normal caster levels.

Narazil
2009-11-21, 10:33 PM
Races of the Dragon. Lesser Tiefling is from Player's Guide to Faerun.Page of Races of the Dragon? Can't seem to find it.
Edit: The Rebirth stuff?

Eldariel
2009-11-21, 11:47 PM
Page of Races of the Dragon? Can't seem to find it.
Edit: The Rebirth stuff?

The first part of the book, from 5 to 20. The mechanical crunch you care about is on 8-11. Basically, it's a +0 LA template.

The relevant crunch:
-2 Dex, +2 Con
Stuff vs. Dragons

Choose one of the aspects: Mind (vision et al.), Heart (breath weapon), Wings (sorta obvious)

Gain stuff by that, lose your standard racial stuff. Lesser Tiefling, on the other hand, is on the back of Player's Guide to Faerun: Basically LA +0 Tiefling that instead of being an Outsider is a Humanoid (Planetouched), losing all the awesome Outsider-benefits and making him subject to both, spells that target Humanoids and spells that target Outsiders.

The relevant crunch that remains after the transformation is:
Humanoid (Extraplanar)
+2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Cha

Since you need Con more than Dex, Dragonborn tradeoff is very good for you. You have to give up Tieflings' racial stuff, but that isn't so amazing anyways and Dragonborn get decent substitutes in either natural wings (so you can fly if targeted by anti-magic to maintain distance) or dozens of modes of vision with good ranges (surprisingly hard to replicate with longlasting spells).

taltamir
2009-11-21, 11:52 PM
does he allow epic?
wizard 1/focus 10 = CL 21... epic casting at level 11 = win the game :)

you still get con x total level in HP right? that is, does a focus level give you HP from con, or no HP at all that level?

Eldariel
2009-11-21, 11:54 PM
does he allow epic?
wizard 1/focus 10 = CL 21... epic casting at level 11 = win the game :)

Not that easy:
Epic Spellcasting (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132422)

Prerequisite

Spellcraft 24 ranks, Knowledge (arcana) 24 ranks, ability to cast 9th-level arcane spells.


Filling those prerequisites early isn't easy. Even Dragonwrought Kobolds have difficulty doing it.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-22, 12:56 AM
I'm not sure I would go all caster levels, but doing even 4 caster/4wizard levels gives you a effective wizard level of 11 for spells, which means 6th level spells. At that point, it really starts to be rocket tag, and since you still count as a level 7 in terms of ECL, you can decimate everything.Wizards lose an average of 2.5 hit points and 2 skill points. Considering that the only ability scores a wizard needs are Con and Int (except for ray builds, if they skived out on Transmutation)...

I'd trade those hp and sp for extra spellcasting levels any day of the week.

Narazil
2009-11-22, 12:58 AM
does he allow epic?
wizard 1/focus 10 = CL 21... epic casting at level 11 = win the game :)

you still get con x total level in HP right? that is, does a focus level give you HP from con, or no HP at all that level?
Con mod to HP.



Dragonborn fits the theme of the campaign, so it's almost guaranteed to be used.

I think focusing on boosting Con, Int and to some extend Wisdom will be my main goal. Any decent con-boosting Humanoid races?



Wizards lose an average of 2.5 hit points and 2 skill points. Considering that the only ability scores a wizard needs are Con and Int (except for ray builds, if they skived out on Transmutation)...

I'd trade those hp and sp for extra spellcasting levels any day of the week.
Do lose all feats except first 2, though. So very limited metamagic.

BobVosh
2009-11-22, 01:01 AM
Not that easy:
Epic Spellcasting (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132422)

Prerequisite

Spellcraft 24 ranks, Knowledge (arcana) 24 ranks, ability to cast 9th-level arcane spells.


Filling those prerequisites early isn't easy. Even Dragonwrought Kobolds have difficulty doing it.

Ya, they have to site around in their hole for centuries, not doing anything at all. Which I recommend you do.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-22, 01:03 AM
I think focusing on boosting Con, Int and to some extend Wisdom will be my main goal. Any decent con-boosting Humanoid races?Dragonborn dwarf or gnome, of course.


Do lose all feats except first 2, though. So very limited metamagic.You should be getting into PrCs by level 4, so you're only missing out on a single feat.

Flaws and human (or halfling) as a race should make up for this. Doesn't work with dragonborn, though.

...Wait, do you completely lose out on everything related to HD? Like, you are affected by sleep at level 20?

Kylarra
2009-11-22, 01:06 AM
Do lose all feats except first 2, though. So very limited metamagic.Can always pick them up at 3/level once you've aquired your 9th level casting.

Malacode
2009-11-22, 01:09 AM
Because of focus levels, I don't think you'd get spells known as either a Wizard or a Sorc, so unless you spend all your money on scrolls, you can't do much as Wiz 1/Focus 6

Doc Roc
2009-11-22, 01:09 AM
What do you want?

Focus levels that give you disproportionately good casting are going to be for the most part wildly more desirable.

Why?

You have D4 HP. Your spells are all that matter. You get more from con-mod than you do from HD. Take as many bloody caster-focus levels as you can.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-22, 01:10 AM
What do you want?Omnipotence.

Failing that, to win the lottery.

Doc Roc
2009-11-22, 01:12 AM
Omnipotence.

Failing that, to win the lottery.

Trust me, the former sucks.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-11-22, 01:13 AM
I'd probably go Water Halfing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#racesOfWater) from UA, along with Dragonborn. Your total ability modifiers with that would be Str -2, Con +4, plus you'd get to keep the swim speed with Dragonborn. That's all you'd keep, the rest of the race of water traits as well as your halfling traits would be lost upon gaining Dragonborn.

Whisper Gnome from Races of Stone would be another good choice, compared to Water Halfling it would get an additional Cha -2 and no swim speed, but a 30 ft. land speed rather than 20 ft. Whisper Gnome could also go into Shadowcraft Mage, if you're into that sort of thing and if it would work out with your focused caster shenanigans. Otherwise just grab Iron Will via the Otyugh Hole for 3,000 gp and get four levels of Incantatrix.

Doc Roc
2009-11-22, 01:15 AM
Buying spell books is cheaper than buying scrolls in most cases, borrowing is even cheaper. Take focus levels.
Pick up a boccob's blessed book, aureon's spell shard, or similar, and make scribing costs free. :: shrugs ::

Tyndmyr
2009-11-22, 01:57 AM
Aright, double levels is definitely too good to pass up.

Get a wand of Wings of Shadow. This allows you to basically say "no" as an immediate action. If you've got money to spare, get one of those lovely multi-wand caddies, allowing you to cast off multiple wands at once.

Go focused specialist. You want the spell volume, plus the flexibility of having tons of stuff prepared at any given time. Focused conjurer alternate class feature instead of a familiar. I suggest using dragonwrought kobold, as others did...but don't bother with epic spellcasting.

Feats: Assuming you gain them as if you were actually level 7, you'll have three by normal means. Dragonwrought eats one. You'll also take two flaws, boosting the total to five. Take Iron Will and Spell Focus(evil) for your flaw feats. The other two..we'll get to that. Your level 3 feat, I dunno..doubt it really matters, but it may be needed to help with temporary skill point shenanigans depending on how exactly the substitution levels work.

Level 5, instead of taking a level of wizard, take a level of Ur priest. Follow this up with nine levels of Mystic Theurge.

You now have level 9 divine casting, fulfilling the pre-requisite for the epic feat Improved Spell Capacity. You'll note that it doesn't require it be applied TO the school that's maxed out, merely that you have one. Chaos shuffle your last two feats into this.

You now have level 8 arcane and level 9 divine casting. Have fun.

Myrmex
2009-11-22, 02:07 AM
How do you qualify for Ur Priest with base saves 0/0/2?

Narazil
2009-11-22, 02:09 AM
I get the normal spells known (at twice the speed). Am I the only one thinking it would be kinda silly to have +0/+0/+2 Saves at ECL 7? And have 2 feats?


And for the Sleep question - doesn't Class Levels = HD with that sorta thing?

Tyndmyr
2009-11-22, 02:11 AM
Mmm, no save advancement from the substitution levels? I overlooked that, makes it a bit difficult. Actually, that might cause some problems in other areas too, if spellcasters turn up. In those fights, you essentially will *have* to end them in one round, or you will die.

Edit: Hmm, if your DM allows counting Iron Will, etc toward those requirements, it's no problem due to the build already containing Iron Will, and having access to Epic Fort. That'd put you at level 7 arcane, level 9 divine. Not technically raw legal though, since I don't believe the bonus actually counts as base save for the purpose of prereqs. Hell, even the bonus from a familiar isn't base save...I don't know if there is a non-class level way to boost that.

Doc Roc
2009-11-22, 02:52 AM
I get the normal spells known (at twice the speed). Am I the only one thinking it would be kinda silly to have +0/+0/+2 Saves at ECL 7? And have 2 feats?


And for the Sleep question - doesn't Class Levels = HD with that sorta thing?

No it doesn't. You have 13th level casting at ECL 7, possibly better if you do silly things.

Are all books open?

Eldariel
2009-11-22, 02:57 AM
So wait, don't you get the normal level-up ability scores and feats with the Focus levels? That is, don't you get the level 3 and 6 feats if you go accelerated?

Myrmex
2009-11-22, 04:43 AM
It doesn't look like it. It looks like he gives up a HD to get faster casting, like a template.

Tyndmyr
2009-11-22, 04:49 AM
You may actually be better off not replacing all your levels with caster boosters. I mean, sure, grab several, but saves, hitpoints, and skills are useful too.

Higher level spells are awesome, but you need enough other resources in case something goes horribly wrong...

Also, losing feats hurts. It makes it pretty rough trying to qualify for anything, since if you don't get feats at level 3 and 6(see if you can take just those as your non-accelerated casting levels, and still bag both feats), you essentially have a maximum of four feats, all of which must be chosen at level 1, which is a wee bit restrictive.

Narazil
2009-11-22, 05:01 AM
You may actually be better off not replacing all your levels with caster boosters. I mean, sure, grab several, but saves, hitpoints, and skills are useful too.

Higher level spells are awesome, but you need enough other resources in case something goes horribly wrong...

Also, losing feats hurts. It makes it pretty rough trying to qualify for anything, since if you don't get feats at level 3 and 6(see if you can take just those as your non-accelerated casting levels, and still bag both feats), you essentially have a maximum of four feats, all of which must be chosen at level 1, which is a wee bit restrictive.
Wizard 1/Feat Focus 1/Caster Focus 5 would still give 5 feats, though.

No usual level up bonus, so no feats and +1 stats.

And yes, all books are open, more or less. I'm staying away from psionics for the time being.

lord_khaine
2009-11-22, 05:09 AM
Im not quite sure its worth it to replace everything, and end up with 1 hd.

Myrmex
2009-11-22, 05:11 AM
I would be tempted to go for a dual progression class, like cerebremancer. You could use vigor, a psicrystal, and share pain to give yourself a ton of HPs.

Focused specialist wizard 1(go with transmutation or conjuration, banning evocation, necromancy, and enchantment)/fast caster 1/psion (or erudite) 1/fast manifester 1/Cerebremancer 3.

Narazil
2009-11-22, 05:12 AM
Heh, I just got a text from my DM. Clerics gain a similiar feature, with the option to replace a class level for a +3 bonus instead of +2, since he thought that "They gave up more in terms of saves and HP than the Wizard".

mostlyharmful
2009-11-22, 05:20 AM
Heh, I just got a text from my DM. Clerics gain a similiar feature, with the option to replace a class level for a +3 bonus instead of +2, since he thought that "They gave up more in terms of saves and HP than the Wizard".

In that case Cleric1/Caster Levels 6 - start off the game throwing Miracles and go from there....

Myrmex
2009-11-22, 05:20 AM
That's ridiculous.
You can have ninth level spells by level 7. You could try going for quadruple threat divine/arcane/psionic/something bizarre like binding build.

[edit]
See if the DM will extend the +3 to Archivists. :smallbiggrin:

Tyndmyr
2009-11-22, 05:23 AM
Heh, I just got a text from my DM. Clerics gain a similiar feature, with the option to replace a class level for a +3 bonus instead of +2, since he thought that "They gave up more in terms of saves and HP than the Wizard".

Seriously?

Mwahaha. Yeah, start breaking the game with cleric. You probably could go for dual or better casting classes if you wanted to. After all, why not break the game in as many ways as humanly possible?

lord_khaine
2009-11-22, 09:22 AM
I guess that means you win as long as you survive to cast gate, at that point your Solar can then mob up whatevers left, and then True ressurect you after the battle is done.

Eldritch_Ent
2009-11-22, 10:54 AM
Guys, guys, you're complaining about HP needs on a Wizard but never thought of taking Fairy Mysteries Initiate? (That one feat that gives INT to HP?) I am shocked. :smalltongue:

mostlyharmful
2009-11-22, 12:18 PM
Only some of us... but since this'll be such a feat starved build I'd be inclinded to focus on temp hp through spells rather than getting FMI.

Acanous
2009-11-22, 12:52 PM
Egads man, +3 CL per level??

I'm crying on the inside.

Ok, be a Cleric with all the rest in CL boost. Take the Trickery domain and SAY you're a wizard.

Pwn EVERYTHING with your level 9 spells of epic cheese. Clerics are, and always have been MORE broken than wizards. (Thus the expression CoD)
-You can wear heavy armor.
-You can wield a weapon while casting.
-You get turn attempts, with which (and investing a single feat) you can use metamagic without increasing slot level.
-Higher base HPs, which won't matter a whole lot, but benefits is benefits.
-Extra 2 fort save.
-Access to literally every divine spell that isn't opposing alignment.

Now, normally, Wizards have more options than clerics- they can cast opposing aligned spells, more prestige classes, bonus feats- and of course, arcane spells deal more damage than divine in most cases.. but if you're going to be fubbing those anyhow, and your DM is seriously giving you 3/1 for clerics and only 2/1 for wizards...

From an optimization point of view, you're gimping yourself by playing anything but a cleric.

So yeah. Go forth and purge the unclean.

The Glyphstone
2009-11-22, 12:57 PM
I wouldn't feel right contributing to this thread anymore, it'd be like kicking a blind quadreplegic puppy, or shooting fish in a barrel with a rocket launcher...but yeah, with this new info, Cleric 1/ Cheeseboost 6 all the way. Planning and Undeath domains, get Persistent Spell, go ridonkulous.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-22, 01:01 PM
One of the few times mystic theurge is actually worth it.

Wizard 1/cleric 2/mystic theurge 4 with Precocious Apprentice (you get 18th level cleric spellcasting, and 10th level wizard casting). Once you get to mystic theurge 5, take a level in archivist, then theurge it up. Once you hit the prereqs, take a level in bard, then go for sublime chord and ultimate magus.

Or just go dragonwrought kobold loredrake cleric 3/mystic theurge 4.

ocdscale
2009-11-22, 01:25 PM
One of the few times mystic theurge is actually worth it.

Wizard 1/cleric 2/mystic theurge 4 with Precocious Apprentice (you get 18th level cleric spellcasting, and 10th level wizard casting). Once you get to mystic theurge 5, take a level in archivist, then theurge it up. Once you hit the prereqs, take a level in bard, then go for sublime chord and ultimate magus.


How does Wizard 1/Cleric 2/Mystic Theurge 4 end up with 18th level Cleric spellcasting? Do you mean by level 20?

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-22, 01:35 PM
How does Wizard 1/Cleric 2/Mystic Theurge 4 end up with 18th level Cleric spellcasting? Do you mean by level 20? Cleric 2 is worth 6 levels, and mystic theurge 4 (on the cleric side) is worth 12 levels.

ocdscale
2009-11-22, 01:56 PM
The +2 Caster levels (or +3 in case of Cleric) appears to be taken in lieu of actual levels.

For example:
Cleric 1 / Caster Focus 6 for a level 7 character would be casting as a level 19 Cleric.
But Cleric 7 would just be a normal level 7 Cleric.

Edit: There's obviously some trade off in terms of saves, HP, feats and skills, but Gate at level 7 is probably worth it.

mostlyharmful
2009-11-22, 02:49 PM
The +2 Caster levels (or +3 in case of Cleric) appears to be taken in lieu of actual levels.

For example:
Cleric 1 / Caster Focus 6 for a level 7 character would be casting as a level 19 Cleric.
But Cleric 7 would just be a normal level 7 Cleric.

Edit: There's obviously some trade off in terms of saves, HP, feats and skills, but Gate at level 7 is probably worth it.

Nah, 1000xp is a big deal at level 7. But shapechange, foresight, timestop and MIRACLE are certainly game wrecking.

Doc Roc
2009-11-22, 03:19 PM
Yes. They are. Trust me.