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Solaris
2009-11-21, 11:40 PM
I haven't written up the fluff, as others have done it much better than I. For example, the people who came up with the Adeptus Astartes to begin with. What I'm looking for is some idea as to how this guy compares to ordinary humans - I'm thinking LA +2 or so.
A Marine who loses all of his special organs suffers penalties in excess of the racial bonuses. That was deliberate.

Marine Racial Traits
- Ability Modifiers: +2 Strength, +2 Dexterity, +4 Constitution. The Imperium's finest are stronger, faster, and tougher than normal humans.
- Medium-Sized: As Medium creatures, Marines have no special bonuses or penalties due to size.
- Speed: A Marine's base land speed is 30 feet.
- Type: Monstrous Humanoid. Unlike other monstrous humanoids, Marines do not gain any proficiencies or darkvision.
- Racial Hit Dice: 2 HD. A Marine's monstrous humanoid levels give him a BAB of +2, +3 Reflex and Will saves, +0 Fortitude save, one feat, and (2 + Int modifier) x 5 skill points. A Marine's class skills (and the key ability for each) are Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Drive (Dex), Jump (Str), Pilot (Dex), Swim (Str). He may gain additional class skills based on his Chapter.
- Gene-Seed: A Marine gains a bonus Gene-Seed feat at 1st level, reflecting which Chapter he belongs to.
- Secondary Heart (Ex): The Marine gains a +10 increase to his massive damage threshold. Losing his secondary heart will reduce the Marine's Constitution score by 4 points.
- Ossmodula (Ex): Due to the modifications of the Marine's skeleton, he receives +3 wound points. Losing the ossmodula will reduce the Marine's Strength and Constitution both by 2 points.
- Biscopea (Ex): The increase in muscle mass grants the Marine the Powerful Build trait.
- Haemastamen (Ex): This supports the secondary heart, ossmodula, and biscopea. Losing the hameastamen will reduce the Marine's Constitution score by 2 and will remove the benefits of the above listed organs.
- Larraman's Organ (Ex): The Marine's increased healing factor means he heals damage at twice the normal rate and automatically stabilizes if reduced to negative wound points.
- Catalepsean Node (Ex): While this is active, the Marine only takes a -2 penalty to Spot and Listen checks and may carry out light duties while asleep. Losing the catalepsean node will reduce the Marine's Wisdom score by 2.
- Preomnor (Ex): This pre-stomach gives the Marine a +4 racial bonus on Fortitude saves against poison and allows him to survive on any organic material with little ill effect.
- Omophagea (Ex): With this, a Marine is able to consume a pound of a creature's flesh to absorb some of its memories. With a successful DC 15 Wisdom check, the Marine learns some of the creature's memory about on par with having watched a movie or read a book about it.
- Multi-lung (Ex): This enables the Marine to breathe thin and toxic atmospheres with no ill effect, granting him a +4 bonus on Fortitude saves against inhaled poisons. He can also hold his breath ten times as long as normal with the multi-lung.
- Occulobe (Ex): This grants the Marine a +4 racial bonus on Spot and vision-based Search checks. He also has low-light vision, able to see twice as far as a human in conditions of poor illumination.
- Lyman's Ear (Ex): This grants the Marine a +4 racial bonus on Balance and Listen checks.
- Sus-an Membrane (Ex): This enables the marine to enter a period of suspended animation as a full-round action or as a reaction to taking damage in excess of his massive damage threshold. Once in suspended animation, he ages at one-hundredth the normal rate but cannot be woken except by a specific chemical trigger from a Marine apothecary. He cannot die while in suspended animation, even if reduced to less than -10 wound points, but if restored without first being healed the Marine will succumb to his wounds. Losing this reduces the Marine's Intelligence score by 2 points.
- Melanochromic Organ (Ex): Thanks to this, the Marine treats all radiation exposure as being one degree lower.
- Oolitic Kidney (Ex): This organ grants the Marine a +4 racial bonus on all Fortitude saves made against disease and poison. If he succumbs to a disease or poison, the Marine can choose to go unconscious for 1d4+1 minutes and gain another Fortitude save at the same DC to cleanse himself of his ailment. Losing the Oolitic kidney reduces the Marine's Constitution score by 2 points.
- Neuroglottis (Ex): In addition to enabling the Marine to detect poisons, diseases, and other chemicals simply by tasting an item, the neuroglottis also gives him the Scent extraordinary ability.
- Mucranoid (Ex): This allows a Marine, with the appropriate chemotherapy (a process taking eight hours that counts as light duty), to render himself immune to extremes of weather between -40 degrees and 160 degrees. He can also survive up to 10 minutes of constant exposure to vacuum at a time with no ill effect, though suffocation is still a threat. This protection lasts for 30 days.
- Betcher's Gland (Ex): The two implants in his mouth enables the Marine to spit contact poison at any target within 5 feet as a ranged touch attack. If his target has exposed eyes, it must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + Marine's HD + Marine's Con modifier) or be blinded for 2d4 + Marine's Con bonus (if any) hours. Regardless of whether or not the target is blinded, it also takes 1d6 points of acid damage (reducing an object's hardness by that much if unliving).
- Progenoids (Ex): Though absolutely vital for continuing the Chapter thanks to the gene-seeds they contain, the progenoid glands do not have any affect on the Marine himself. Most Marines have theirs removed as soon as they have matured.
- Black Carapace (Ex): The interface between a Marine and his armor, the black carapace enables him to use his armor proficiently. Without it, a Marine can never progress beyond Scout as his armor is only so much ceramite.
- Automatic Languages: Low Gothic. Bonus Languages: High Gothic.
- Favored Class: Soldier. +10% experience point bonus for having more than half the levels in this class.
- Level Adjustment: +2. A Marine has an ECL of 4 before class levels.

Temotei
2009-11-21, 11:53 PM
So is this just a modified human? If so, it could be a template. Then again, you'd have to recalculate a bit, because I don't think templates have included racial levels yet...

Gorgondantess
2009-11-21, 11:54 PM
So is this just a modified human? If so, it could be a template. Then again, you'd have to recalculate a bit, because I don't think templates have included racial levels yet...

Lycanthropy is a template, and it most certainly has racial levels.

Temotei
2009-11-21, 11:56 PM
Lycanthropy is a template, and it most certainly has racial levels.

Whoops. Forgot about that. :smallbiggrin:

Solaris
2009-11-22, 12:00 AM
I was torn between having it be a template and not. After all, a prospective marine does start off being an ordinary human - but he undergoes a specific transformative process that has to happen at certain periods of his life in order to become a proper Space Marine. Only non-mutant, non-abhuman humans are Space Marines, so there really wouldn't be much payoff to writing it as a template (even if Ork Marines amuse me more than they should).

Temotei
2009-11-22, 12:02 AM
I was torn between having it be a template and not. After all, a prospective marine does start off being an ordinary human - but he undergoes a specific transformative process that has to happen at certain periods of his life in order to become a proper Space Marine. Only non-mutant, non-abhuman humans are Space Marines, so there really wouldn't be much payoff to writing it as a template (even if Ork Marines amuse me more than they should).

Makes sense, but at the same time, I think it would make sense to make it a template restricted to humans.

Catch
2009-11-22, 12:03 AM
I'm thinking LA +2 or so.

http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/7614/sighingmarine.jpg

No. Consider the stat bonuses granted by the Vampire (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm) template. It has several crippling weaknesses and it's still LA +8. This is basically unplayable, unless everyone else is a Space Marine too.

Don't get caught up in the fluff. I'd make this into a template for humans that increases Str and Con by +2, grants a +4 racial bonus against poison and disease, and a +2 morale bonus to will saves against fear. Call it LA +2 then.

Temotei
2009-11-22, 12:07 AM
Yeah, I'm thinking more along the lines of +3 - +6...

Solaris
2009-11-22, 12:22 AM
http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/7614/sighingmarine.jpg

No. Consider the stat bonuses granted by the Vampire (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm) template. It has several crippling weaknesses and it's still LA +8. This is basically unplayable, unless everyone else is a Space Marine too.

Don't get caught up in the fluff. I'd make this into a template for humans that increases Str and Con by +2, grants a +4 racial bonus against poison and disease, and a +2 morale bonus to will saves against fear. Call it LA +2 then.

That depends - I've found the Vampire to be almost unplayable due to its ridiculously high LA, and I've also found none of its weaknesses are truly crippling. Sunlight seems to be the only one that could really hurt it, and most vampires have the smarts to remain well outside of the sun's reach. They can go gaseous, so it's not like someone can really force 'em into the sun or under running water. The vamp's resistances make it survivable, though, even with that high LA. The Marines don't have those. With any less than +4, maybe +6 Con, I wouldn't ever make a primary combatant race with an LA of +2. The hit point reduction as compared to a human of the same level just hurts it too much unless it has a lot to compensate - like the vampire. DR 5/- is great, though.

I gave 'em +4 Str on account of the Powerful Build - they're midway between Medium and Large size, much like Goliaths. Seven feet tall, when the cutoff for Large is eight feet tall. The +2 Dex... well, that one could go any which way. I put it in there because these guys are supposed to be highly agile and good shots despite their size. The bonuses to mental stats come from their extensive mental training.

Your reduced version has the elegance of simplicity, but it does ignore a lot of the implants and modifications related to the senses, sleep, etc. To me, it looks more along the lines of an LA +1 the way you wrote it. Like I said above, losing two hit dice is worth at least +4 Con. Somewhere between the two versions, I think, would be best.

I'm considering replacing the immunity to inhaled/ingested poisons with a +4 bonus, though. Coupled with the boost to Constitution, that's still practical immunity to poison.


Yeah, I'm thinking more along the lines of +3 - +6...

Hrm. I think you might be right, but I'm concerned about losing combat capability. A human fighter of 9th-10th level is a lot better at fighting than a Marine fighter of the same ECL. The Marine's sacrificing a lot of BAB and is staying at only about the same hit points - but I could compensate by giving the Marine some better equipment.

Catch
2009-11-22, 12:37 AM
You clearly have played Warhammer, so consider the difference between a Spare Marine model and an Imperial Guard model, which is just a normal human.

+1 WS and BS, which is a product of training. +1 S, T and I from the physical enhancements, and a higher leadership score + ATSKNF.

Converted to d20, I'd call that +2 Str, +2 Con, maybe +2 Dex and a bonus against fear/poison, which makes the template/race a viable option, instead of an exaltation of Games Workshop fluff. In D&D/Modern terms, Marines are probably higher level characters, which better explains their prowess than huge racial bonuses to stats.

Space Marines still take wounds from a Banewolf's Chem Cannon and Poisoned Attacks, despite their poison immunity. Space Marines don't roll extra dice during Night Fight games, despite their enhanced vision. Space Marines still fall back and can still fail Morale checks, despite their battle-hardened nerves.

Playability is almost always superior to accuracy to the lore.

Solaris
2009-11-22, 01:07 AM
You clearly have played Warhammer, so consider the difference between a Spare Marine model and an Imperial Guard model, which is just a normal human.

+1 WS and BS, which is a product of training. +1 S, T and I from the physical enhancements, and a higher leadership score + ATSKNF.
>>; Actually, I just paint 'em. I've only recently started cracking open the books - I was about to ask you to provide exactly what you just said.
By the way, what's ATSKNF mean?


Converted to d20, I'd call that +2 Str, +2 Con, maybe +2 Dex and a bonus against fear/poison, which makes the template/race a viable option, instead of an exaltation of Games Workshop fluff. In D&D/Modern terms, Marines are probably higher level characters, which better explains their prowess than huge racial bonuses to stats.
I think you might be having a point... even if I do like making 'em some seriously superhuman monstars (misspelled deliberately, Tem, it's a pun). Lowering it from the fluff to the stats does help playability a lot.


Space Marines still take wounds from a Banewolf's Chem Cannon and Poisoned Attacks, despite their poison immunity. Space Marines don't roll extra dice during Night Fight games, despite their enhanced vision. Space Marines still fall back and can still fail Morale checks, despite their battle-hardened nerves.
Well, fluff-wise it doesn't read quite as immunity, just resistance. I just thought to myself, "Well, heck, it's close enough". I'm changing it, though.
Heh. I didn't give 'em any bonuses against fear. That, I think, is training.

Gorgondantess
2009-11-22, 01:18 AM
Depends on what you're going by: the game mechanics for space marines aren't insanely awesome simply because... well, you'df have a bunch of insanely awesome units on the field.
In the fluff of the Warhammer 40k setting, a Space Marine is an unstoppable killing machine, able to take a bolter shell to the unarmored head and keep going, and punch a regular human's head off bare fisted. With power armor, one is supposedly able to take on small armies.
So... I'd actually call the stats here accurate. I'd balance them against something like the sand giant and just give them 10+ RHD, maybe make the RHD better by giving them all good saves and full BAB, maybe some bonus feats, then 2 or 3 LA. So, they're truly unstoppable killing machines... but, hey, it's years of toughening up and training for it. Definitely equivalent to about a 15th level character.

Catch
2009-11-22, 01:26 AM
By the way, what's ATSKNF mean?

"They shall be my finest warriors, these men who give of themselves to me. Like clay I shall mould them, and in the furnace of war forge them. They will be of iron will and steely muscle. In great armour shall I clad them and with the mightiest guns will they be armed. They will be untouched by plague or disease, no sickness will blight them. They will have tactics, strategies and machines so that no foe can best them in battle. They are my bulwark against the Terror. They are the Defenders of Humanity. They are my Space Marines and they shall know no fear." - The Emperor of Mankind

Space Marines have a special rule called And They Shall Know No Fear, which lets them automatically regroup after falling back. Basically, they're Chuck Norris clones in power armour.

Solaris
2009-11-22, 01:31 AM
Depends on what you're going by: the game mechanics for space marines aren't insanely awesome simply because... well, you'df have a bunch of insanely awesome units on the field.
In the fluff of the Warhammer 40k setting, a Space Marine is an unstoppable killing machine, able to take a bolter shell to the unarmored head and keep going, and punch a regular human's head off bare fisted. With power armor, one is supposedly able to take on small armies.
So... I'd actually call the stats here accurate. I'd balance them against something like the sand giant and just give them 10+ RHD, maybe make the RHD better by giving them all good saves and full BAB, maybe some bonus feats, then 2 or 3 LA. So, they're truly unstoppable killing machines... but, hey, it's years of toughening up and training for it. Definitely equivalent to about a 15th level character.

I seem to recall seeing some mention of non-standard rules written to make SMs more in line with their fluff versions. It jacked the point price of 'em up proportionately. The problem with that is if we're doing 'em like that, then we really can't quite work 'em for the 3-10 level range, which is where I like to play.


"They shall be my finest warriors, these men who give of themselves to me. Like clay I shall mould them, and in the furnace of war forge them. They will be of iron will and steely muscle. In great armour shall I clad them and with the mightiest guns will they be armed. They will be untouched by plague or disease, no sickness will blight them. They will have tactics, strategies and machines so that no foe can best them in battle. They are my bulwark against the Terror. They are the Defenders of Humanity. They are my Space Marines and they shall know no fear." - The Emperor of Mankind

Space Marines have a special rule called And They Shall Know No Fear, which lets them automatically regroup after falling back. Basically, they're Chuck Norris clones in power armour.

Ahh. Thanks for clearing that up.

Solaris
2009-11-22, 01:56 AM
Changed it up some. It's in between the fluff and the crunch.

Talkkno
2009-11-22, 02:14 AM
In the fluff of the Warhammer 40k setting, a Space Marine is an unstoppable killing machine, able to take a bolter shell to the unarmored head and keep going, and punch a regular human's head off bare fisted. With power armor, one is supposedly able to take on small armies.
So... I'd actually call the stats here accurate. I'd balance them against something like the sand giant and just give them 10+ RHD, maybe make the RHD better by giving them all good saves and full BAB, maybe some bonus feats, then 2 or 3 LA. So, they're truly unstoppable killing machines... but, hey, it's years of toughening up and training for it. Definitely equivalent to about a 15th level character.

So is everything else in 40k.......... Eldar aspect warriors are at least equal to Space Marines, Nercons one shot them...etc The only exception is Imperial Guard, Orks and certian Tyranid armies.

Narazil
2009-11-22, 02:27 AM
So is everything else in 40k.......... Eldar aspect warriors are at least equal to Space Marines, Nercons one shot them...etc The only exception is Imperial Guard, Orks and certian Tyranid armies.
Orks aren't made of awesome? Except they, y'know, grow to be like 10 meters tall and rip Land Raiders apart with their bare hands.

:smallamused:

Talkkno
2009-11-22, 02:34 AM
Orks aren't made of awesome? Except they, y'know, grow to be like 10 meters tall and rip Land Raiders apart with their bare hands.

:smallamused:

Sure Nobz are pretty awesome, but for every Nob you got tons more regular boyz. The key difference is that you don't have a entire army made of such dudes. Though they tend to make it up with lots of dakka and choppa.

Anonymouswizard
2009-11-22, 03:07 AM
This sounds cool, but they should have a ability that lets them have a second fear check with a +10 bonus if they fail the first one. Although I don't know the fluff as well for the loyalists (I play CSM).

Speaking of the servants of the gods, do we have the domains and favoured weapons for them. Also, can we have the servants of chaos stated up? They should not get anything like ATSKNF, but they all have a leadership of 10, so they should get a bonus to all fear checks. As said in the Orcs of WAAAARGH!!! thread, fluff is played up for the developers armies, and you can tell that 40% of al 40k players will play SP, or some percentage like that.

Solaris
2009-11-22, 03:58 AM
Orks aren't made of awesome? Except they, y'know, grow to be like 10 meters tall and rip Land Raiders apart with their bare hands.

:smallamused:

Yeah, I'm looking forward to making the Orks.


This sounds cool, but they should have a ability that lets them have a second fear check with a +10 bonus if they fail the first one. Although I don't know the fluff as well for the loyalists (I play CSM).

Speaking of the servants of the gods, do we have the domains and favoured weapons for them. Also, can we have the servants of chaos stated up? They should not get anything like ATSKNF, but they all have a leadership of 10, so they should get a bonus to all fear checks. As said in the Orcs of WAAAARGH!!! thread, fluff is played up for the developers armies, and you can tell that 40% of all 40k players will play SP, or some percentage like that.

Hm. Good idea, about the re-roll fear saves. It's a little clunky - I generally dislike re-rolls on account of them slowing down play - but it shouldn't come up enough in play to really slow it down. Not like the ability to re-roll a Spot check (thank you, SWSE).

Hrm. I was torn between having Psykers do cleric-based spellcasting or psionic powers. Chaos casters would be more the arcane types, methinks. I'd have to do more reading on the subject to really get a good idea of where I should go with it. Either way, the four Chaos gods should definitely grant some kind of domains... Hmm.
Hey, get outta my head. For the Chaos types, I was thinking of having them be mostly the same 'cept they can take mutations a la d20 Future. I don't have the same access to the Chaos Marines that I do the Space Marines for fluff.

Anonymouswizard
2009-11-22, 04:26 AM
*Snip*
Hrm. I was torn between having Psykers do cleric-based spellcasting or psionic powers. Chaos casters would be more the arcane types, methinks. I'd have to do more reading on the subject to really get a good idea of where I should go with it. Either way, the four Chaos gods should definitely grant some kind of domains... Hmm.
Hey, get outta my head. For the Chaos types, I was thinking of having them be mostly the same 'cept they can take mutations a la d20 Future - and they'll . I don't have the same access to the Chaos Marines that I do the Space Marines for fluff.

Hmmm... If you need anything, I bet there are several CSM players floating around the playground, but you'll have to make a Daemon Prince template. Maybe make it so instead of domains you let people give different psionic disciplines, and each chaos god gives their own unique discipline. Reflavour the mutations as Daemonic Gifts, and let chaos people roll on a random table (with good and bad effects), and have the maximum number of "gifts" they can have based on their con, if they gain more than that then they lose most gifts and gain the spawn template.

Narazil
2009-11-22, 04:55 AM
Hmmm... If you need anything, I bet there are several CSM players floating around the playground, but you'll have to make a Daemon Prince template. Maybe make it so instead of domains you let people give different psionic disciplines, and each chaos god gives their own unique discipline. Reflavour the mutations as Daemonic Gifts, and let chaos people roll on a random table (with good and bad effects), and have the maximum number of "gifts" they can have based on their con, if they gain more than that then they lose most gifts and gain the spawn template.
But make the good effects outnumber the bad. Chaos Gods are somewhat clever, they don't bless with suck.


Also, seemingly bad blessings can be good. Host of a swarm of flies? Sounds like the directional opposite of awesome, but paired with proper prayers to Nurgle, and you're all set for killing Astartes.

Oslecamo
2009-11-22, 07:31 AM
Only non-mutant, non-abhuman humans are Space Marines, so there really wouldn't be much payoff to writing it as a template (even if Ork Marines amuse me more than they should).

In case you didn't notice, spech merines are a bunch of fanatical warriors obsessed with purity, so it's not a matter of not working, but a matter of never trying.

Chaos on the other hand have been known to mix spech merines with plenty of other stuff, so we know it's actualy possible.

Anonymouswizard
2009-11-22, 07:55 AM
In case you didn't notice, spech merines are a bunch of fanatical warriors obsessed with purity, so it's not a matter of not working, but a matter of never trying.

Chaos on the other hand have been known to mix spech merines with plenty of other stuff, so we know it's actualy possible.

We don't know if mutations can happen before becoming a space marine, chaos only tells us it can happen after.

Oslecamo
2009-11-22, 07:59 AM
We don't know if mutations can happen before becoming a space marine, chaos only tells us it can happen after.

There's also no reason why the emperium can't reverse engineer the awesome Tau technology and give it to their own troops, but hey, fanatism!

Grumman
2009-11-22, 08:12 AM
Rather than piling on tons of little random bonuses, I'd make something simpler.

For a start, I'd base it off the Goliath. +1 LA for +4 Strength, +2 Con and powerful build. For simplicity's sake, I'd probably just go with Spellwarped Goliath and refluff the Spell Absorption as morale bonuses.

Ashtagon
2009-11-22, 08:43 AM
Before I critique this, I honestly need to know whether this design is intended to be based off the crunch or the fluff. The two are radically different.

Oslecamo
2009-11-22, 08:57 AM
Before I critique this, I honestly need to know whether this design is intended to be based off the crunch or the fluff. The two are radically different.

Not only that, but also wich fluff is the OP basing himself into, since if you pick two diferent fluff books, SM will still be radicaly diferent. Like, in one book they're being shot down by arrows, on the other they're shrugging off point blanck plasma explosions.

Temotei
2009-11-22, 01:13 PM
monstars (misspelled deliberately, Tem, it's a pun).

This makes me happy. :smallbiggrin:

Several things are confusing me because of the setting, so I'll try to keep to the mechanics as much as possible.

On the racial hit dice section, it says you get "blah blah (2 + Int) x 5" skill points. Is it supposed to be x 4?

At the bottom, would the soldier class translate into fighter? And the languages into Common and Undercommon...or something? :smallsmile:

The rest has influence from things I have no idea about, so I'll stay out of it.

Ashtagon
2009-11-22, 01:40 PM
The lines about "losing organ X causes penalty Y" are meaningless for D&D, and the game has no rules for this kind of specific injury (and neither does any GW game that I know of, with the possible exception of WHFRP's critical hit table).

Belobog
2009-11-22, 04:07 PM
On the racial hit dice section, it says you get "blah blah (2 + Int) x 5" skill points. Is it supposed to be x 4?

I'd assume the extra set of skill points comes from having two Hit Dice.

Oslecamo
2009-11-22, 04:12 PM
The lines about "losing organ X causes penalty Y" are meaningless for D&D, and the game has no rules for this kind of specific injury (and neither does any GW game that I know of, with the possible exception of WHFRP's critical hit table).

Well, there's a D&D spell wich demands you take out your hearth and replace it with a stone one for some nice benefits. :smalltongue:

Solaris
2009-11-22, 04:43 PM
Hmmm... If you need anything, I bet there are several CSM players floating around the playground, but you'll have to make a Daemon Prince template. Maybe make it so instead of domains you let people give different psionic disciplines, and each chaos god gives their own unique discipline. Reflavour the mutations as Daemonic Gifts, and let chaos people roll on a random table (with good and bad effects), and have the maximum number of "gifts" they can have based on their con, if they gain more than that then they lose most gifts and gain the spawn template.

Something like that, yeah. Maybe a combination - a psyker picks a discipline, a Chaos sorcerer picks a domain. Seeing as how the sorcerer is more powerful (in WH40k - they're not as at risk of getting daemonic-related head explosions and therefore can crank out more power) I could do it as a Prestige Class.
I'm thinking that the risk of a PC becoming Chaos Spawn should be manageable, simply because it kinda sucks to randomly lose your character. Maybe 1 + Con gifts (minimum zero, but you gotta work to have a Marine with a Con of 9 or lower) and a Fort (or Will) save each time he gets one over the maximum. Perhaps negative levels for each excess Chaos Gift, and if he hits 0 he turns into a Chaos Spawn. Hrm.
Hmm. Daemon Prince... Probably best sticking with that'ne as a BBEG. I could do it as the capstone of a 10-level Chaos Marine PrC as well as a template, kinda like the Dragon Disciple only aberration/outsider rather than half-dragon.
And, y'know, more powerful.


But make the good effects outnumber the bad. Chaos Gods are somewhat clever, they don't bless with suck.


Also, seemingly bad blessings can be good. Host of a swarm of flies? Sounds like the directional opposite of awesome, but paired with proper prayers to Nurgle, and you're all set for killing Astartes.

*Nods* At their worst, they'll be like the good kind of cursed magic items - too good for you to want to really get rid of, but painful enough that you might want to consider it.


In case you didn't notice, spech merines are a bunch of fanatical warriors obsessed with purity, so it's not a matter of not working, but a matter of never trying.

Chaos on the other hand have been known to mix spech merines with plenty of other stuff, so we know it's actually possible.

I did notice. o_o
Like I said, I didn't think it really worthwhile to make a player go through the process of applying the template to his character. Even with the Chaos Marines, humans are the norm. Still, I'm contemplating writing it up as a template as well, and probably coming up with Neophytes as a lesser version of the Marines.


We don't know if mutations can happen before becoming a space marine, chaos only tells us it can happen after.

I seem to recall mention of non-Marine mutants, and the Soul Drinkers are an example of mutated Marines who (mostly) don't serve Chaos - but they're still hunted by the Imperium.


Rather than piling on tons of little random bonuses, I'd make something simpler.

For a start, I'd base it off the Goliath. +1 LA for +4 Strength, +2 Con and powerful build. For simplicity's sake, I'd probably just go with Spellwarped Goliath and refluff the Spell Absorption as morale bonuses.

Well, they're not so much random as based off of the info given in the 'Becoming a Space Marine' section. I agree it's a lot, especially with the less-than-elegant format I gave it in, but I have my reasons. Primarily, I wanted to make it so that a Raven Guard marine would be different than an Ultramarine, or another defective chapter different from the standard.


Before I critique this, I honestly need to know whether this design is intended to be based off the crunch or the fluff. The two are radically different.

Fluff where possible, crunch to make it playable.


Not only that, but also which fluff is the OP basing himself into, since if you pick two different fluff books, SM will still be radically different. Like, in one book they're being shot down by arrows, on the other they're shrugging off point blank plasma explosions.

I'm going with the fluff found in the Codex: Space Marines, considering I haven't actually bought one of the story books.


This makes me happy. :smallbiggrin:

Several things are confusing me because of the setting, so I'll try to keep to the mechanics as much as possible.

On the racial hit dice section, it says you get "blah blah (2 + Int) x 5" skill points. Is it supposed to be x 4?

At the bottom, would the soldier class translate into fighter? And the languages into Common and Undercommon...or something? :smallsmile:

The rest has influence from things I have no idea about, so I'll stay out of it.

I said what I meant, and I meant what I said. An elephant's- oh, wait. (2 + Int) x 5, as it's x4 from the first hit dice and then another x1 from the second hit die.

Basically, yes. I'm probably going to crib the Soldier from the Star Wars d20/SE games or write up one of my own. Either way, his primary role is "Kills things dead". The languages basically translate into Common and Fancy Common.


The lines about "losing organ X causes penalty Y" are meaningless for D&D, and the game has no rules for this kind of specific injury (and neither does any GW game that I know of, with the possible exception of WHFRP's critical hit table).

'Cept there are several Chapters which are missing one or more gene-seeds for the organs, and I'm contemplating writing up flaws that'd allow a Marine to swap one of them for a bonus feat.

Oslecamo
2009-11-22, 04:49 PM
I'm going with the fluff found in the Codex: Space Marines, considering I haven't actually bought one of the story books.


Excelent, since I consider it to be the true one, and everything else from the Black Library that contradicts it it's clearly work of Chaos.

Anyway, I don't see much reason to give it HD. HD are a pain when taking classes, and even with all their augmentations, spech merines are still suposed to die when you stick something sharp trough their eye orbit, so I don't see much reason to give them classes.

After all, what makes a true spech merine is also their imba equipment and heavy training(aka classes).

Talkkno
2009-11-22, 04:54 PM
There's also no reason why the emperium can't reverse engineer the awesome Tau technology and give it to their own troops, but hey, fanatism!

Tau tech is inferior to the top tier of Imperium tech, battlesuits can be breached by bolt pistols for gods sake while having a larger targeting profile.
A single Marine in Kill team took down 3 battle suits with only a bolt pistol and a power sword. While getting stuffed of burst cannon fire the whole way, the only conquence was losing his helment.

Solaris
2009-11-22, 05:52 PM
Excelent, since I consider it to be the true one, and everything else from the Black Library that contradicts it it's clearly work of Chaos.

Anyway, I don't see much reason to give it HD. HD are a pain when taking classes, and even with all their augmentations, spech merines are still suposed to die when you stick something sharp trough their eye orbit, so I don't see much reason to give them classes.

After all, what makes a true spech merine is also their imba equipment and heavy training(aka classes).

Yes. Heretical works of Chaos besmirching the reputations of His finest.

I mostly gave it the HD to justify a lower LA. In my experience, HD have always been better than LA because they do give skill points, HP, BAB, and save bonuses while not often being quite as good as a class. If it makes you feel better, I'm using a variant of the VP/WP variant, where a critical hit strikes the target's WP - in the Marine's case, his CON score +3 - and taking WP damage is often really unpleasant. If he's asleep or flat-footed (in my version), he doesn't even have his VP. An attack that deals damage directly to WP will make the character succeed on the Fort save or immediately drop to -1 WP. Thus, a dagger in the eye is still a dagger in the eye - it might not kill you right off the bat, but you can seriously start considering rolling up a new character. If the enemy has sneak attack, then you're definitely looking at being dead.
Basically, I made it so getting tagged with a critical hit sucks hard.


Tau tech is inferior to the top tier of Imperium tech, battlesuits can be breached by bolt pistols for gods sake while having a larger targeting profile.
A single Marine in Kill team took down 3 battle suits with only a bolt pistol and a power sword. While getting stuffed of burst cannon fire the whole way, the only conquence was losing his helment.

Well, you don't stop making tanks just because rocket launchers kill them. The Tau battlesuits may die because a Marine frowns at 'em, but they're better than what most of the National Imperial Guard gets. The only thing the Tau have going for them is the fact that their tech five hundred years ago is noticeably different from the tech today, while the Imperium's is not.

Oslecamo
2009-11-22, 06:36 PM
Tau tech is inferior to the top tier of Imperium tech, battlesuits can be breached by bolt pistols for gods sake while having a larger targeting profile.

Eerr, since a bolt pistol is basicaly a miniaturized rocket launcher, you're basicaly complaining that a tank can be breached by an anti tank rocket launcher.



A single Marine in Kill team took down 3 battle suits with only a bolt pistol and a power sword. While getting stuffed of burst cannon fire the whole way, the only conquence was losing his helment.

Yes, and in the Fire Warrior novel a single fire warrior makes a bloody path trough an IG regiment, a spech merine company and takes down a titan for dessert. The novel authors make a lot of "creative changes", and thus can't really be trusted for anything.

Let's see things on a bigger scale shall we?

Basic weapon of the emperium:flashlight lasgun. Null penetrating power. Strenght comparable to our modern day rifles.

Basic weapon of the tau: plasma rifle. Excellent range. Enough strenght to bust out light tanks(aka chimeras) with concentrated fire. Even ork charges will be stoped by plasma rifle concentrated fire(like said on it's codex), while spech merines will need to draw their swords to finish the job.

Taus use skimmer tanks whose weapons outrange and outpunch the armor of the basic tanks of the guard, the leman russes.

And that's their mass produced technology. Spech merines are rare as hell (less than one for each emperium planet).

Temotei
2009-11-22, 07:11 PM
I'd assume the extra set of skill points comes from having two Hit Dice.

Whoops. Missed it. Hehe. :smallbiggrin:

Talkkno
2009-11-22, 07:41 PM
Eerr, since a bolt pistol is basicaly a miniaturized rocket launcher, you're basicaly complaining that a tank can be breached by an anti tank rocket launcher.
Bolt pistols cannot penerate SM power armor.






Let's see things on a bigger scale shall we?

Basic weapon of the emperium:flashlight lasgun. Null penetrating power. Strenght comparable to our modern day rifles.

Basic weapon of the tau: plasma rifle. Excellent range. Enough strenght to bust out light tanks(aka chimeras) with concentrated fire. Even ork charges will be stoped by plasma rifle concentrated fire(like said on it's codex), while spech merines will need to draw their swords to finish the job.

Taus use skimmer tanks whose weapons outrange and outpunch the armor of the basic tanks of the guard, the leman russes.

And that's their mass produced technology. Spech merines are rare as hell (less than one for each emperium planet).
Hellgun>pulse Rifle
Sniper rifle> battlesuit armor
Fire warrior armor< Caprace

I take you didn't actaully read the fire warrior novel did you? Because thats not what happens unlike in game.
\
The Tau only win against Guard because they are always gimped, like Taros where they had supply problems.

Catch
2009-11-22, 08:14 PM
Bolt pistols cannot penerate SM power armor.

Sure they can. Wounds on a 4+, and 3+ saves still fail on 1s and 2s.



Hellgun>pulse Rifle
Sniper rifle> battlesuit armor
Fire warrior armor< Caprace

Hellgun: 24" S3 AP5 Rapid Fire < Pulse Rifle: 30" S5 AP5 Rapid Fire

Also, Tau have sniper rifles too and Fire Warrior / Carapace armour are both 4+ saves.


I take you didn't actaully read the fire warrior novel did you? Because thats not what happens unlike in game.

The Tau only win against Guard because they are always gimped, like Taros where they had supply problems.

Right. In the novelizations, GW doesn't have to give non-Imperium armies a fair chance, because everyone just wants to read about Space Marines being badasses. There's absolutely no consistency, so measuring power by the novels is a fool's errand. Not to mention the writing Games Workshop sanctions is ubiquitously terrible - it's Imperium fan-fiction. Did you think they'd profit from writing that makes their flagship product line look weak?

Talkkno
2009-11-22, 08:44 PM
Sure they can. Wounds on a 4+, and 3+ saves still fail on 1s and 2s.



Hellgun: 24" S3 AP5 Rapid Fire < Pulse Rifle: 30" S5 AP5 Rapid Fire

Also, Tau have sniper rifles too and Fire Warrior / Carapace armour are both 4+ saves.



Right. In the novelizations, GW doesn't have to give non-Imperium armies a fair chance, because everyone just wants to read about Space Marines being badasses. There's absolutely no consistency, so measuring power by the novels is a fool's errand. Not to mention the writing Games Workshop sanctions is ubiquitously terrible - it's Imperium fan-fiction. Did you think they'd profit from writing that makes their flagship product line look weak?
Oh and using game mechanics are so much better? :smallmad: Why don't you give me some qoutes?
Pg 503 of Last Chancers
"Now!" I shout, dropping down, the gun blazing in my hands. At this range I can't miss and the drone explodes into a shower of flam*ing shrapnel. The tau turn, but I'm on them, swinging the butt of the autogun into the helmeted face of the closest, smashing the small cluster of lenses that are where his eyes should be. The next in line raises his rifle to blast me apart but I kick the muzzle aside and the shot tears through his comrade, nearly slicing him in half. I reverse the kick and power my boot into the tau's chest, smashing him on to his back, and then leap on him, driving the autogun under his chin and pulling the trigger.
The top of his helmet explodes across the ferns in a bloody spray.

I look up to see Quidlon driving his knife up into the groin of another fire warrior while Trost smashes a rock over the head of another. The two remaining aliens turn and flee, but Quidlon snatches up his lasgun and cuts them down with an intense salvo of bolts before they get out of sight. I take a pause to catch my breath, looking at the mutilated bodies. Rather them than me."
autoguns and lasguns chewing up fire warriors




PAge 508 of Kill Team
"The thigh panels flip back up into place, sealing shut with a clang, and then with a whining of motors the main canopy drops down. The last I see of Quidlon is his wide grin. The suit sits there motion*less for a moment, and I wonder if he really has worked it all out.
Then the war machine begins to judder, shaking violently for a cou*ple of seconds. With a hiss, the chest plate opens up again. The canopy hinges away to reveal a charred corpse in the seat, still smok*ing, burnt lips peeled back from grinning teeth. There's a few crackles of energy still playing around two rods inserted into either side of Quidlon's head. Silently, the rods withdraw back into the sides of the cockpit. The thighs peel downwards revealing his rav*aged legs, pieces of material burnt onto the bone. The stench of burnt flesh fills my nostrils and I gag. I gulp heavily to stop myself throwing up.
'You stupid piece of sump filth!' I bellow at Quidlon's husk of a body. Losing my senses completely, I fire a few shots into the corpse, causing it to collapse into a pile of bones and ashes which spill out from the suit. I spit on the pile and then kick at it, scattering ashes and chunks of shattered bone around me. 'Stupid, fraggin', stupid, son of a bitch, stupid fragger!' I scream hoarsely, punctuating my shouting with kicks, before pulling myself together.
I stand there panting and look at the slightly smoking battle suit. I pull a grenade from my belt and toss it onto the seat, before stepping back. The explosion tears the cockpit apart, throwing out shattered glass and pieces of instrument panel that drop amongst Quidlon's burnt remains. Realising I haven't got too many grenades, I use my autogun on the other four, spraying short bursts of bullets into each one, my firing rewarded by sparks of electricity and small fires break*ing out across the various control panels."

Frag grenade fries battlesuit, keep in mind this won't happan if you put one in SM power armor or most IG vechiles.

Page 513-514 of Kill Team
Strangely, I don't feel so scared now though. It's like I know some*how that he's not going to kill me. Then I hear a sharper crack over the zip of lasguns and rattle of autoguns. Something slams into the shield, causing it to detonate in a bright shower of blue sparks, falling to the ground in three shattered pieces. More shots ring out, armour-piercing shells punching neatly through the battle suit in a tight cluster at the centre of the main chestplate.
The tau commander forgets me and turns on the others, swinging the burst cannon around to a firing position. The next incoming shot
hits one of the barrels end on, causing it to split, and as he fires, the gun ruptures, shearing off the whole arm, which spins past and clangs to the ground just to my right. More shots in rapid succession cut through the struts of his right lower leg, causing it to buckle under the weight of the suit and toppling him down to one side.

There's a hiss from the battle suit, and a moment later a section of the body is punched away on four small jets, hurling Brightsword from the crippled machine. The four bodyguards are leaping towards the Last

Chancers, who are heading for the far end of the chamber, propelling their battle suits forward in long leaps on their jump jets. I look back at the escape pod and see the hatch swinging open. The others are cut off, the bodyguard in between them and Brightsword."

IG sniper rifle> battlesuit

Page 518-519 of Kill Team
I can just about make out the flickering trails of the bolts as they scream across the open ground, three of them impacting in quick succession on the closest of the battle suits, the one whose flamer I destroyed earlier, tearing great gouges out of the armour and knock*ing it backwards. Still advancing steadily, the Space Marine opens fire again, three more shots, three more perfect hits that set off a chain
reaction in the suit, causing it to explode in a shower of shrapnel and burning body parts of the pilot.

The rest of the Last Chancers open fire on the tau furthest from the Space Marine, as the other two turn towards their attacker. Their can*non fire dims even the searchlights, and I see the shells converging on the Space Marine. Their impact would have shredded a normal man and hurled his bloody carcass a dozen metres, but the Space Marine is simply forced down on to one knee under the cannonade. Cracks and dents appear in his armour under the fusillade, and a shoulder pad goes spinning off, trailing sparks from its powered mounting. Unbelievably, the Space Marine pushes himself to his feet, ignoring the shells ripping up the ground around him and scoring across his breastplate, and returns fire, his bolts ripping through the burst cannon of one of the battle suits.

'For the Emperor!' I hear him bellow in a voice like a god's. He tosses away his bolter and grabs the power sword two-handed, break*ing into a charge, his long strides covering over three metres every step, his boots cracking the concourse under his weight. The nearest battle suit, now one-armed, takes a step back, readying itself for a jump, but somehow the Space Marine gets there before the jets fire, swinging the sword in a crackling arc that severs one of the battle suit's legs and topples it to the ground. Without a pause, the Space Marine spins and delivers another blow, the glowing blade of his sword carving a massive rent in the body of the suit, shearing it wide open.

The battle suit the others are targeting launches itself into the air on a short trail of fire, its missile pod igniting as it does so, the salvo screaming towards us on smoky trails."

Marine with only power sword and bolt pistol owns Battlesuits.


Do you want more? :smallamused:

EleventhHour
2009-11-22, 08:49 PM
Right. In the novelizations, GW doesn't have to give non-Imperium armies a fair chance, because everyone just wants to read about Space Marines being badasses.


Heeey. That's not fair. All of our named Guardsmen with pages of backstory, following them around, and learning to like them, die all the time. And hardly ever manage anything more than a symbolic victory for the main character.

:smalltongue:

Catch
2009-11-22, 08:51 PM
Oh and using game mechanics are so much better? :smallmad:

At least they're consistent. And, you know, make a vague stab at being reasonably fair.


Heeey. That's not fair. All of our named Guardsmen with pages of backstory, following them around, and learning to like them, die all the time. And hardly ever manage anything more than a symbolic victory for the main character.

:smalltongue:

:smallwink:

Talkkno
2009-11-22, 08:52 PM
Why don't you give me some qoutes that proves your assertions about Tau are correct? Where I've provided revelent qoutes for my case.

Bariko
2009-11-22, 08:55 PM
Oh and using game mechanics are so much better?

Well, to be technical, since everything Warhammer began as a game, and this is about turning Space Marines into a race in another game, yes. Mechanics are better.

The novelizations are a cool take on the game, but they're very obviously subjective, like all novels based on other sources (like a ****load of the Expanded Universe for Star Wars).

Basically, since it's taking a game creation and trying to alter it to be another game feature, the mechanics have to be the primary concern - they offer consistency and measurable benefits. Fluff can come later.


Why don't you give me some qoutes that proves your assertions about Tau are correct? Where I've provided revelent qoutes for my case.

He did. He gave you the actual stats for the equipment from Games Workshop. That's... well that's about as relevant as you can get.

Catch
2009-11-22, 09:00 PM
Why don't you give me some qoutes that proves your assertions about Tau are correct? Where I've provided revelent qoutes for my case.

I don't know what a "qoute" is. Another Space Marine organ? :smallamused:

And, I haven't asserted anything about the Tau that isn't in their codex. Pulse rifles do have a higher S value and a longer range. Sniper Teams do have sniper rifles. Fire Warrior armour saves are, in fact, 4+. Terrible fiction meant to sell miniatures has nothing to do with game balance.

Which is the point of this thread, not "WOO EMPRAH! SPEESH MREENS ARE HARD KORE!" And that'd be a flawed point anyway, since y'know, Chaos...

Talkkno
2009-11-22, 09:01 PM
Well, to be technical, since everything Warhammer began as a game, and this is about turning Space Marines into a race in another game, yes. Mechanics are better.

The novelizations are a cool take on the game, but they're very obviously subjective, like all novels based on other sources (like a ****load of the Expanded Universe for Star Wars).

Basically, since it's taking a game creation and trying to alter it to be another game feature, the mechanics have to be the primary concern - they offer consistency and measurable benefits. Fluff can come later.

Aww but we are talking about fluff here aren't we?

Talkkno
2009-11-22, 09:03 PM
I don't know what a "qoute" is. Another Space Marine organ? :smallamused:

And, I haven't asserted anything about the Tau that isn't in their codex. Pulse rifles do have a higher S value and a longer range. Sniper Teams do have sniper rifles. Fire Warrior armour saves are, in fact, 4+. Terrible fiction meant to sell miniatures has nothing to do with game balance.

Which is the point of this thread, not "WOO EMPRAH! SPEESH MREENS ARE HARD KORE!" And that'd be a flawed point anyway, since y'know, Chaos...

Nonsqeutier, as we were talking about effectiveness of Tau equipment.

Bariko
2009-11-22, 09:04 PM
Aww but we are talking about fluff here aren't we?

Partially. I thought the purpose of the thread is to create a way for a WH40K race to be used in DnD/Modern. I don't read the novels, so I can't comment on them, but seeing how the fluff is supposed to be based on the mechanics, I would think that regardless the mechanics take precedence.

In terms of equipment effectiveness, the game rules and GW stats for gear have to be the defining rule. Authors write things without considering mechanics, and that's fine. But if it's got anything to do with the game, the game has to be prioritized.

Talkkno
2009-11-22, 09:08 PM
Fair enough.

Solaris
2009-11-22, 11:27 PM
Partially. I thought the purpose of the thread is to create a way for a WH40K race to be used in DnD/Modern. I don't read the novels, so I can't comment on them, but seeing how the fluff is supposed to be based on the mechanics, I would think that regardless the mechanics take precedence.

In terms of equipment effectiveness, the game rules and GW stats for gear have to be the defining rule. Authors write things without considering mechanics, and that's fine. But if it's got anything to do with the game, the game has to be prioritized.

Pretty much. I plan on doing almost all of the Imperium and a good chunk of Chaos thoroughly enough to be playable, as well as Orks at least thoroughly enough to be enemies.
Speaking of Chaos, I'm almost done with the Daemonic Gifts. I'm thinking the steed could be something like the paladin's mount... bought with mutation/warp points.

Ashtagon
2009-11-23, 04:26 AM
Well, to be technical, since everything Warhammer began as a game, and this is about turning Space Marines into a race in another game, yes. Mechanics are better.

The novelizations are a cool take on the game, but they're very obviously subjective, like all novels based on other sources (like a ****load of the Expanded Universe for Star Wars).

Basically, since it's taking a game creation and trying to alter it to be another game feature, the mechanics have to be the primary concern - they offer consistency and measurable benefits. Fluff can come later.

He did. He gave you the actual stats for the equipment from Games Workshop. That's... well that's about as relevant as you can get.

This is my main issue with using fluff (especially fluff that is written from a subjective or worse, an in-character point of view). GW's fluff always hypes up the protagonist of the story. A story about eldar will only ever tell of how they stomped the orks; one about orks will only ever tell of how they stomped the eldar. Every faction appears to be on steroids if you only read that faction's fluff, because stories are only written by the victors.

It's cool that this conversion is being done based on fluff, but the subjective nature of fluff (both as written and as interpreted) means that I don't feel safe providing c+c on it, because the fluff is not internally consistent; unlike the actual game rules, GW doesn't try to make it consistent so much as a lead-in for people to buy miniatures.

(Aside: The was another thread recently in which someone tried to convert GW's orc race. That had similar issues, which made every other race non-competitive, because they had based it solely off fluff, without considering game mechanics).

Edit: c+c = comments and criticism.

Solaris
2009-11-23, 04:49 AM
(Aside: The was another thread recently in which someone tried to convert GW's orc race. That had similar issues, which made every other race non-competitive, because they had based it solely off fluff, without considering game mechanics).

I saw. I was one of the guys arguing him to tone it down. IIRC, I dropped out after telling him to quit snapping at everybody who disagreed with him.

EDIT: c+c?

Talkkno
2009-11-23, 12:54 PM
This is my main issue with using fluff (especially fluff that is written from a subjective or worse, an in-character point of view). GW's fluff always hypes up the protagonist of the story. A story about eldar will only ever tell of how they stomped the orks; one about orks will only ever tell of how they stomped the eldar. Every faction appears to be on steroids if you only read that faction's fluff, because stories are only written by the victors.


15 Hours and Rebel Winter would like to disgree, novels about the Guard where the Guard get stomped.\

Besides, the easy solution is to make everyone awesome, works in Exalted :smallbiggrin:

Oslecamo
2009-11-23, 01:01 PM
15 Hours and Rebel Winter would like to disgree, novels about the Guard where the Guard get stomped.\

The guard is a special case. They're suposed to be the normal dudes who get stomped by everybody else.

Because if there wasn't the guard, then the eldars and orks and chaos would be stomping into the spech merines all the time, and the fluff would make even less sense, as there would be no way the imperium could have so many spech merines to be stomped.



Besides, the easy solution is to make everyone awesome, works in Exalted :smallbiggrin:
Well, yeah, but then you may be as well playing freeform, since they're both the same things (describe the stuff you do well enough that everybody else will go along with you).

Talkkno
2009-11-23, 01:09 PM
The guard is a special case. They're suposed to be the normal dudes who get stomped by everybody else.

Because if there wasn't the guard, then the eldars and orks and chaos would be stomping into the spech merines all the time, and the fluff would make even less sense, as there would be no way the imperium could have so many spech merines to be stomped.

Guard can be awesome too, look at Gaunt's Ghosts and Ciaphas Cain, its just that i disagree with the statement that hte fluff is taht baised, since I'd say that only usually happens in the Codexs

Anonymouswizard
2009-11-23, 03:36 PM
On the subject of Tau technology is rubbish:

Mass produced tau gun (pulse rifle) > uncommon imperial gun (bolter).
Uncommon tau armour (crisis battlesuit) > rare imperial armour (power armour).
Standard tau tank gun (railgun) > standard SM tank gun (lascannon).
Standard tau armour (tau armour) > standard imperial armour (IG armour).

So... how is the tau technology much worse than the imperim technology? The game stats, the most consistant part of the universe says that tau tech is better than imperim tech.

However, the space marines are powerful. However, to make them playable you will have to nerf them.

Oslecamo
2009-11-23, 05:41 PM
Guard can be awesome too, look at Gaunt's Ghosts and Ciaphas Cain, its just that i disagree with the statement that hte fluff is taht baised, since I'd say that only usually happens in the Codexs

On the contrary, the codexes are the most sane thing around.

Looks at Cain. He isn't awesome because he belongs to the guard. He barely ever does comissar work. He resembles an inquisitor more than anything else, leading a small group of elite hencmen with plenty of free hand. He doesn't plane sieges or campaigns or large scale defenses or anything the guard is actualy responsible for! Same for Gaunt.

Now Yarrick, he may have killed a warboss and stuff, but at least he does comissar work. He was ordered to hold a poisition against horrible odds, and damn he did hold the position, losing an arm and sending countless mens to their deaths, but following his orders, instead of recruiting a bunch of super talented adventurers and going into an adventure.

Talkkno
2009-11-23, 07:32 PM
On the subject of Tau technology is rubbish:

Mass produced tau gun (pulse rifle) > uncommon imperial gun (bolter).
Uncommon tau armour (crisis battlesuit) > rare imperial armour (power armour).
Standard tau tank gun (railgun) > standard SM tank gun (lascannon).
Standard tau armour (tau armour) > standard imperial armour (IG armour).

So... how is the tau technology much worse than the imperim technology? The game stats, the most consistant part of the universe says that tau tech is better than imperim tech.

However, the space marines are powerful. However, to make them playable you will have to nerf them.

Good luck resupplying pulse ammo and railgun ammo when your supply lines get cut.
Realisticilly on tabletop you shoudn't get more then a squad or two marines at max, same goes for Nercons and Eldar.

Solaris
2009-11-23, 11:38 PM
Good luck resupplying pulse ammo and railgun ammo when your supply lines get cut.
Realistically on tabletop you shouldn't get more then a squad or two marines at max, same goes for Nercons and Eldar.

I can't imagine the bolters are much different when it comes to cut supply lines.

Yeah, but where'd be the fun in fielding just a squad of troops?

Tackyhillbillu
2009-11-24, 01:09 AM
Pretty much. I plan on doing almost all of the Imperium and a good chunk of Chaos thoroughly enough to be playable, as well as Orks at least thoroughly enough to be enemies.
Speaking of Chaos, I'm almost done with the Daemonic Gifts. I'm thinking the steed could be something like the paladin's mount... bought with mutation/warp points.

Any chance you will be doing the true badasses of the Imperium, Inquisitors?

Space Marines are awesome. Inquistors can tell Space Marines to shut up, sit down and listen. There is a reason the entire Imperium is terrified of them.

Oslecamo
2009-11-24, 08:27 AM
Good luck resupplying pulse ammo and railgun ammo when your supply lines get cut.

The Tau do it pretty well, and they have only a fraction of the emperium's resources.

Plus hey, at least pulse weaponry kills stuff, while a bloodthirster can dance the macarrena in the middle of an IG army and they can't touch him. Veridic story from IA.



Realisticilly on tabletop you shoudn't get more then a squad or two marines at max, same goes for Nercons and Eldar.

Hmm, last time I checked, eldars sent their civilians as cannon fodder into batle, to distract the enemy while the aspect warriors positioned themselves. There's plenty of stories of eldar guardians geting cut by the droves.

As for Spech merines, they die by the hundreds in the Imperial Armor codexes, and land raider attack columns aren't unheard off.


Tackyhillbillu:Unfortenely, depending on what fluff you read, spech merines tell inquisitors to shut up all the time. On the other hand, then the spech merines get killed and the inquisitor has to finish the job, so I guess you're right:smalltongue:

Solaris
2009-11-24, 11:27 AM
Any chance you will be doing the true badasses of the Imperium, Inquisitors?

Space Marines are awesome. Inquistors can tell Space Marines to shut up, sit down and listen. There is a reason the entire Imperium is terrified of them.

As a class, yes. Quite probably a Prestige Class or two for 'em, too.

readsaboutd&d
2009-11-24, 12:10 PM
A bit late but this was bugging me:

Basic weapon of the emperium:flashlight lasgun. Null penetrating power. Strenght comparable to our modern day rifles.
They can tear off a limb and, judging form dawn of war, fire shots with barely a second or two between. If numerous enough, they can stop a charge of boyz. Tau still have better weapons but dont underestimate lasguns.
Its a quality vs quantity question. Space marines>Tau>IG in quality but in quantity Space marines<Tau<IG.

The main problem is replenishing wich is why, unless a deus ex machina arrives, the good guys are going to lose. Chaos can corrupt most races, has endless demons and can respawn their marines somehow I think, tyranids respawn their hive wich is more powerful every time, orcs use spores, necrons can live on and even increase their numbers with captured humans. Space marines cant recreate weaponry or gene seeds if they are lost and Ig and tau count on reproduction wich is a bit slow. We dont talk about eldar.

Mulletmanalive
2009-11-24, 12:36 PM
I REALLY like your treatment of all the extra organs and stuff.

I'm going to say, however, as a long time 40k fluff enthusiast, that I don't think these critters are nearly powerful enough.

The 40k setting is horribly plagued by the necessities of play compared to fluff. The nearest thing to a truly representitive stat block to the space marine, unfettered by balance issues have them using a strength of 200-270 on a human limits percentile scale, with a toughness of 150-210 in =][=nquisitor.

It was states back when 4th edition 40k was in progress that they had considered increasing the power of Space Marines but found that the armies were too small and elite. They were pretty refreshingly honest that this wouldn't sell enough miniatures...hence the S and T of 4.

Given scale, i'd say that Space Marines are basically Ogres with brains in a D&D situation. Solon once stated that the worth of 100 space marines was equal to 1000 other troops and he was talking about the elite guardsmen he had at his disposal. In battlefield theory, a 10 to 1 numerical advantage, especially considering Space Marines are a beachhead attacking force, means that the firepower advantage is something like 100 to 200 to one. These are some SCARY MOFOs...

p.s. Some of the above may have been said previously, i'm just commenting on the stats as presently written rather than reading more than the first page...

Talkkno
2009-11-24, 12:38 PM
Hmm, last time I checked, eldars sent their civilians as cannon fodder into batle, to distract the enemy while the aspect warriors positioned themselves. There's plenty of stories of eldar guardians geting cut by the droves.


Cite source? and quote please. Gaurdains all have previous aspect warrior training. And Imperial Armor clearly states they are used mostly as bait to draw in enemy forces before being overwhelmed by superior Eldar firepower, then they are extracted on wave seprents to elsewhere as needed. And Eldar mesh armor can take Space Marine bolters and only leave bruised ribs.
....The cogboys can vat grow geneseed you know? That's how they make new chapters.

Solaris
2009-11-24, 03:59 PM
....The cogboys can vat grow geneseed you know? That's how they make new chapters.

Not according to the Index Astartes I. They need to use human test slaves to reproduce the gene-seeds, taking fifty-five years to produce one thousand sets of healthy organs from an original donor zygote. These test slaves are kept in stasis their entire lives - something like vat-grown, but not terribly fast and certainly in keeping with the GRIMDARK of the setting.

imp_fireball
2009-11-24, 04:23 PM
To the OP: Remember that each chapter is slightly unique. If you want, you could offer slight mechanical benefits/drawbacks depending on the chapter and then adjust accordingly.

I also agree that just because the lore says only humans can be space marines, you shouldn't necessarily restrict it to humans - and if you do, people will still be asking their GMs if their orc can be an SM. :)

Oslecamo
2009-11-24, 05:25 PM
Cite source? and quote please. Gaurdains all have previous aspect warrior training. And Imperial Armor clearly states they are used mostly as bait to draw in enemy forces before being overwhelmed by superior Eldar firepower, then they are extracted on wave seprents to elsewhere as needed. And Eldar mesh armor can take Space Marine bolters and only leave bruised ribs.

The fall of Kher-ys, a craftworld, in the book of Chaos demons, page 26.
Resume here (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Kher-Ys)

Relevant quotes:
"Huntresses mounted on their serpentine steeds ran rampart trough the arcing forest domes, tearing apart green-clad guardians".

So, hmm, the armor that stops bolters can't stop demonic claws? Sucks to be a spech merine then.

"Thousands fell to their insatiable thirsts, and Slaanesh claimed his prized jewel"


Plus there's the other craftworld, Lyaden. Slower than a tyranid hive fleet. Damn, that's SLOW, since even humie ships can outrun an hive fleet!

"Thousands upon thousands of its warriors fell in batle against the Great Devourer. On the verge of utter defeat, Lyanden was saved from extermination by the return of Prince Yriel and his Eldritch Raiders"

Right on the eldar codex, page 20.

Dunno about you, but thousands of casualities counts as dying by the droves on my book.



....The cogboys can vat grow geneseed you know? That's how they make new chapters.
Slow process, and part of it goes to waste to maintain purity, as mutations aren't that uncommon. Space wolves were lazy on it, and now they're the space furries.

Solaris
2009-11-24, 06:40 PM
To the OP: Remember that each chapter is slightly unique. If you want, you could offer slight mechanical benefits/drawbacks depending on the chapter and then adjust accordingly.

I also agree that just because the lore says only humans can be space marines, you shouldn't necessarily restrict it to humans - and if you do, people will still be asking their GMs if their orc can be an SM. :)

One step ahead of you. The Gene-Seed feat is the one that determines the Marine's Chapter. I'm busy working them right now, but I have a couple more or less done. I'm considering reducing their power, though.
Black Templars
"No Pity! No Remorse! No Fear!"
Prerequisites: Gene-Seed racial trait.
Benefits: The Black Templar may swear a special oath of faith and protection 1/day. This grants him a +2 bonus on all saving throws against Psyker and Warp powers as well as SR 11 + his HD for 1 minute/level.
Drawbacks: Due to the hate and distrust Black Templars have for the Warp and anything within it, they may not multiclass into Psyker or use any Psyker or Warp powers. In addition, the Black Templar takes a -2 penalty to Diplomacy and Bluff checks against a Psyker or creature of Chaos.
Equipment: A Black Templar receives a suit of Mark VII Power Armor and a bolter.

Grey Knights
The legendary Chapter 666, the Grey Knights are the only Space Marine Chapter to fall under command of the Ordo Malleus - and the only chapter to never suffer one of their number to fall to Chaos. They are the Ordo's Chamber Militant, charged with hunting down and destroying all daemonic forces in the Imperium. All Grey Knights are psykers, put through a grueling training regimen that almost completely erases their previous memories and personalities to replace them with total devotion and loyalty to the Emperor. Their Primarch and the origin of their gene-seed is unknown, but is thought to have come from the Emperor Himself. The Grey Knights are based out of Titan, Saturn's largest moon, and while their armor remains the steel-grey of unpainted ceramite they decorate it with protective symbols and engraved litany.
Prerequisites: Gene-Seed racial trait, Wis 17.
Benefits: The Grey Knight begins play with 1 + Cha modifier power points and knows 3 0-level powers. Thanks to the purity wards implanted under his skin and covering his entire body, he can never acquire Warp points. Knowledge (Chaos) and Knowledge (Religion) are always considered class skills for the Grey Knight.
Drawbacks: Thanks to their grueling conditioning, a Grey Knight must succeed on a Will save (DC 15) to avoid complying with a direct order from a superior. In addition, they receive 4 less Action Points per level than normal and take a -2 penalty to Charisma.
Equipment: A Grey Knight receives a suit of Aegis armor with a wrist-mounted storm bolter and a Nemesis force weapon rather than the normal equipment for a Space Marine.

Raven Guard
"Vinctorus aut Mortis!"
Formerly the XIX Legion under the Primarch Corax, the Raven Guard was all but annihilated during the Drop Site Massacre in the Horus Heresy. To supplement his waning Legion, rumor has it that Corax used cloning to attempt to bolster his Chapter's numbers. Unfortunately, barely ten percent of these clones were fit to be Marines, while the rest degenerated into subhuman monsters. Even those who were fit left a taint on the Chapter's gene-seed, crippling the Chapter's efforts at recovery. Even their equipment is substandard, relying on ancient models of power armor rather than the up-to-date Mark VII. To compensate, each Marine of the Raven Guard receives extensive training in hit-and-run tactics and guerrilla warfare. The Raven Guard's colors are black with white markings.
Prerequisites: Gene-Seed racial trait.
Benefits: A Raven Guard who has moved at least 10 ft in a turn may add +1d6 points of damage per two levels to any attacks he makes in that turn.
Drawbacks: The degeneration of the Raven Guard gene-seed has cost the Chapter the Mucranoid and Betcher's Gland. In addition, their Melanchromic Organ has mutated to cause the Marine's skin to grow pale, eventually becoming pure white while their hair and eyes darken to a coal-black.
Equipment: A Brother Marine of the Raven Guard receives Mark IV "Corvus" Pattern Armor and a bolter.

Salamanders
"Into the fires of battle, unto the anvil of war!"
Natives of the world Nocturne and descended from the Primarch Vulkan, the Salamanders are marked by their dark or jet black skin and bright, burning eyes. They are all skilled craftsmen with a penchant for weapons related to the forge, traits inherited from their Primarch, and as such they excel in close-quarter firefights. The Salamanders' main colors are green, black, and gold.
Prerequisites: Gene-Seed racial trait.
Benefits: Salamanders receive a -2 penalty to Dexterity, but a +2 increase to Constitution in addition to their normal Astartes ability modifiers. Craft and Repair are always class skills for them, and they receive a +2 racial bonus to all Craft and Repair checks made with their wargear. Salamanders also receive a +1 bonus on attack rolls made with all hammers and fire-based weapons.
Equipment: A Salamander begins play with a suit of Mark VII power armor and a bolter or a flamer.

Space Wolves
"For Russ and the All-Father!"
Unique among the Chapters of the Adeptus Astartes, the Space Wolves are infamous for being the only Chapter to not follow the Codex laid down by Roboute Guilliman. With their unique organization and emphasis on Fenrisian iconography, they almost seem to stand in defiance of the Imperium itself. Despite their defiant natures, however, the Space Wolves are ultimately completely loyal to the God-Emperor and their Primarch, Leman Russ. The color of the Space Wolves' armor is an icy grey, but the badge changes within each Great Company as a new Wolf Lord is chosen.
Prerequisites: Gene-Seed racial trait.
Benefits: Due to their heightened senses, the Space Wolves receive a +2 racial bonus on Spot, Listen, and Search checks. Ths is in addition to the normal racial bonuses Marines receive. While within 30 feet of another member of the Space Wolves, they receive a +1 morale bonus on melee attack and damage rolls.
Drawbacks: Due to the canis helix, Space Wolves are technically mutants. Good luck trying to do something about that, would-be purgers.
Equipment: A Space Wolf begins play with a suit of Mark VII power armor and a Lightning Claw.

Ultramarines
"Courage and Honor!"
Prerequisites: Gene-Seed racial trait.
Benefits: Ultramarines receive a +2 racial bonus on all Knowledge (history), Knowledge (tactics), and Knowledge (religion) checks due to their exceptional education and adherence to the Codex Astartes. An Ultramarine gains a +2 bonus on all Requisition checks so long as he is in good standing with his Chapter.
Equipment: As one of the largest and most successful Chapters, Ultramarines have access to better starting gear than other Marines. An Ultramarine begins play with a suit of Mark VII power armor, two frag grenades, and a bolter or a bolter pistol and power sword.
I still have the others to do, of course. At the very least, I plan on doing the most iconic Chapters. They're... really not balanced against each other. They're not exactly meant to be, but I couldn't think of anything to give the Ultramarines over the other Chapters.

Yeah... I'm still sorely tempted to create Chapta WAAAGH!!!, da Empera's Orky Marinez. My plan is to produce the race of Space Marine (and a lesser version, Initiate), then provide Space Marine as a template.

Talkkno
2009-11-24, 10:00 PM
Oslecamo, your being dishontest, its pretty clear that it was a total suprise attack and plus there most powerful weapon got possessed.

imp_fireball
2009-11-24, 10:31 PM
One step ahead of you. The Gene-Seed feat is the one that determines the Marine's Chapter. I'm busy working them right now, but I have a couple more or less done. I'm considering reducing their power, though.
Black Templars
"No Pity! No Remorse! No Fear!"
Prerequisites: Gene-Seed racial trait.
Benefits: The Black Templar may swear a special oath of faith and protection 1/day. This grants him a +2 bonus on all saving throws against Psyker and Warp powers as well as SR 11 + his HD for 1 minute/level.
Drawbacks: Due to the hate and distrust Black Templars have for the Warp and anything within it, they may not multiclass into Psyker or use any Psyker or Warp powers. In addition, the Black Templar takes a -2 penalty to Diplomacy and Bluff checks against a Psyker or creature of Chaos.
Equipment: A Black Templar receives a suit of Mark VII Power Armor and a bolter.

Grey Knights
The legendary Chapter 666, the Grey Knights are the only Space Marine Chapter to fall under command of the Ordo Malleus - and the only chapter to never suffer one of their number to fall to Chaos. They are the Ordo's Chamber Militant, charged with hunting down and destroying all daemonic forces in the Imperium. All Grey Knights are psykers, put through a grueling training regimen that almost completely erases their previous memories and personalities to replace them with total devotion and loyalty to the Emperor. Their Primarch and the origin of their gene-seed is unknown, but is thought to have come from the Emperor Himself. The Grey Knights are based out of Titan, Saturn's largest moon, and while their armor remains the steel-grey of unpainted ceramite they decorate it with protective symbols and engraved litany.
Prerequisites: Gene-Seed racial trait, Wis 17.
Benefits: The Grey Knight begins play with 1 + Cha modifier power points and knows 3 0-level powers. Thanks to the purity wards implanted under his skin and covering his entire body, he can never acquire Warp points. Knowledge (Chaos) and Knowledge (Religion) are always considered class skills for the Grey Knight.
Drawbacks: Thanks to their grueling conditioning, a Grey Knight must succeed on a Will save (DC 15) to avoid complying with a direct order from a superior. In addition, they receive 4 less Action Points per level than normal and take a -2 penalty to Charisma.
Equipment: A Grey Knight receives a suit of Aegis armor with a wrist-mounted storm bolter and a Nemesis force weapon rather than the normal equipment for a Space Marine.

Raven Guard
"Vinctorus aut Mortis!"
Formerly the XIX Legion under the Primarch Corax, the Raven Guard was all but annihilated during the Drop Site Massacre in the Horus Heresy. To supplement his waning Legion, rumor has it that Corax used cloning to attempt to bolster his Chapter's numbers. Unfortunately, barely ten percent of these clones were fit to be Marines, while the rest degenerated into subhuman monsters. Even those who were fit left a taint on the Chapter's gene-seed, crippling the Chapter's efforts at recovery. Even their equipment is substandard, relying on ancient models of power armor rather than the up-to-date Mark VII. To compensate, each Marine of the Raven Guard receives extensive training in hit-and-run tactics and guerrilla warfare. The Raven Guard's colors are black with white markings.
Prerequisites: Gene-Seed racial trait.
Benefits: A Raven Guard who has moved at least 10 ft in a turn may add +1d6 points of damage per two levels to any attacks he makes in that turn.
Drawbacks: The degeneration of the Raven Guard gene-seed has cost the Chapter the Mucranoid and Betcher's Gland. In addition, their Melanchromic Organ has mutated to cause the Marine's skin to grow pale, eventually becoming pure white while their hair and eyes darken to a coal-black.
Equipment: A Brother Marine of the Raven Guard receives Mark IV "Corvus" Pattern Armor and a bolter.

Salamanders
"Into the fires of battle, unto the anvil of war!"
Natives of the world Nocturne and descended from the Primarch Vulkan, the Salamanders are marked by their dark or jet black skin and bright, burning eyes. They are all skilled craftsmen with a penchant for weapons related to the forge, traits inherited from their Primarch, and as such they excel in close-quarter firefights. The Salamanders' main colors are green, black, and gold.
Prerequisites: Gene-Seed racial trait.
Benefits: Salamanders receive a -2 penalty to Dexterity, but a +2 increase to Constitution in addition to their normal Astartes ability modifiers. Craft and Repair are always class skills for them, and they receive a +2 racial bonus to all Craft and Repair checks made with their wargear. Salamanders also receive a +1 bonus on attack rolls made with all hammers and fire-based weapons.
Equipment: A Salamander begins play with a suit of Mark VII power armor and a bolter or a flamer.

Space Wolves
"For Russ and the All-Father!"
Unique among the Chapters of the Adeptus Astartes, the Space Wolves are infamous for being the only Chapter to not follow the Codex laid down by Roboute Guilliman. With their unique organization and emphasis on Fenrisian iconography, they almost seem to stand in defiance of the Imperium itself. Despite their defiant natures, however, the Space Wolves are ultimately completely loyal to the God-Emperor and their Primarch, Leman Russ. The color of the Space Wolves' armor is an icy grey, but the badge changes within each Great Company as a new Wolf Lord is chosen.
Prerequisites: Gene-Seed racial trait.
Benefits: Due to their heightened senses, the Space Wolves receive a +2 racial bonus on Spot, Listen, and Search checks. Ths is in addition to the normal racial bonuses Marines receive. While within 30 feet of another member of the Space Wolves, they receive a +1 morale bonus on melee attack and damage rolls.
Drawbacks: Due to the canis helix, Space Wolves are technically mutants. Good luck trying to do something about that, would-be purgers.
Equipment: A Space Wolf begins play with a suit of Mark VII power armor and a Lightning Claw.

Ultramarines
"Courage and Honor!"
Prerequisites: Gene-Seed racial trait.
Benefits: None.
Drawbacks: None.
Equipment: As one of the largest and most successful Chapters, Ultramarines have access to better starting gear than other Marines. An Ultramarine begins play with a suit of Mark VIII power armor and a bolter or a bolter pistol and power sword.
I still have the others to do, of course. At the very least, I plan on doing the most iconic Chapters. They're... really not balanced against each other. They're not exactly meant to be, but I couldn't think of anything to give the Ultramarines over the other Chapters.

Yeah... I'm still sorely tempted to create Chapta WAAAGH!!!, da Empera's Orky Marinez. My plan is to produce the race of Space Marine (and a lesser version, Initiate), then provide Space Marine as a template.

Can't space wolves turn into werewolves or something?

Also, is this D&D?

Talkkno
2009-11-24, 10:33 PM
You probarly give ultramarines a bonus to Knowledge(Tactics), intellgence, and the like, for they very well versed in the Codex Astreses and actaully keep planets that worth a dam beyond recruiting grounds.

Solaris
2009-11-24, 10:38 PM
Can't space wolves turn into werewolves or something?

Also, is this D&D?

Wolfen... I think that might be (yet another) PrC/Template.

This is... it's looking like I might base it mostly off of the d20 Star Wars. Compatible with D&D, but there're a few differences. D20 system, at least. Humans will probably be the same, just with an ability added on depending on what their homeworld is (Hive, Forge, Feral, etc). Naturally, weapons will be dealing more damage (I'm toying with 4d6/20 x3 for a Marine's bolter, 2d8/20 x3 for a chainsaw sword) and I'm using a derivative of the armor-as-DR system (quite probably with a class bonus to Defense like the Star Wars d20 RPG, too).


You probarly give ultramarines a bonus to Knowledge(Tactics), intellgence, and the like, for they very well versed in the Codex Astreses and actaully keep planets that worth a dam beyond recruiting grounds.

Ooh, good idea. I also gave 'em a bonus to making Requisition checks (which are level checks, adding your rank bonus, against a set DC. Power Armor, for example, would be somewhere around 20 or 25 because it's almost impossible to replace, whereas a bolter would be somewhere around DC 10 or 15.)

Stormthorn
2009-11-24, 11:59 PM
- Preomnor (Ex): This pre-stomach gives the Marine a +4 racial bonus on Fortitude saves against poison and allows him to survive on any organic material with little ill effect.

Cant you just say "Grants Scavenging Gullet Feat?" Or is it coincidence that you chose a +4 racial bonus to Fort? Scavenging Gullet gives +4 racial bonus to fort againt poisons (although only ingested ones) and lets you eat anyhting organic.

Solaris
2009-11-25, 03:31 AM
Cant you just say "Grants Scavenging Gullet Feat?" Or is it coincidence that you chose a +4 racial bonus to Fort? Scavenging Gullet gives +4 racial bonus to fort againt poisons (although only ingested ones) and lets you eat anyhting organic.

It's entirely coincidental. Where's Scavenging Gullet found?

Oslecamo
2009-11-25, 04:29 AM
Oslecamo, your being dishontest, its pretty clear that it was a total suprise attack and plus there most powerful weapon got possessed.

Yeah, because we all know in war your oponent will politely warn you before attacking and don't try to use every advantage it can get to screw you. Weren't you the one claiming that supply lines would always be cut a few posts ago?

But even if we consider that example unfair, was the nid hive fleet also a suprise attack?

Solaris:it's on Lords of Madness.

Talkkno
2009-11-25, 03:39 PM
But even if we consider that example unfair, was the nid hive fleet also a suprise attack?
.

The Farseers decided standing and fighting was the best course of action, they already did consider running away and hiding in a physic bubble weren't feasible after a Eldar Ranger reported on the Tyranids. And considering that Iyanden managed fairly well after defeating the Nid's. Despite all the doom and gloom the codex presents, as just a few months after, they were once again on the warpath again to throw the mon-keigh off a maiden world, which by the way was garrisioned by a combined Sisters of Battle, Space Marine and Imperial Guard contingent and Eldar do not committ to war unless they have alredy forseen there victory. All the while throwing off another Tyranid invasion of the world with Imperium help.:smallamused: