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Tyndmyr
2009-11-22, 04:18 AM
So, what all dual progression classes exist?

Obviously, we have Mystic Theurge, for full divine arcane progression.
Also, there's Eldritch Theurge, for warlock/arcane progression.

There's one minor problem with this...a ten level class isn't enough to get 9th level casting on both sides(leaving out ur-priest cheese for now), and also, combinations are limited. I'd love to see an arcane/arcane progression, or a psionic/arcane progression. Sure, Erudite's spell to power is a decent imitation of that flexibility, but it's not really the same.

What other dual progression caster classes exist?

Master list from posts below ->

Dual Progression Classes:
Mystic Theurge(DMG): Arcane/Divine
Arcane Hierophant(RoW): Arcane/Divine
Folchuran Lyricist: Arcane/Divine
Ultimate Magus(CM): Prepared Arcane/Spont Arcane. 8/10 prog in 10 lev.
Cerebremancer(XPH): Psionic/Arcane
Eldritch Theurge(CM): Invoke/Arcane
Psychic Theurge (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040925b): Divine/Manifester
Noctumancer(ToM): Shadowcaster/Arcane
Yathrinshee(PgF): Arcane/Divine. 6/6 prog in 9 lev.
True Necromancer(LM): Arcane/Divine.
Soul Manifester (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20060217a): Meldshaping/Psionic

Accelerated Progression Classes:
Ur-Priest(BoVD): Become a cleric in ten levels.
Sublime Chord(CA): Go from 3rd level arcane to maxed in ten levels.
Beholder Mage(LoM):Full wizard or sorc casting in 10 levels. Race must be a true beholder.
Divine Crusader(CM): Divine spellcasting in ten levels for one domain only.
Apostle of Peace(BoED): Divine spellcasting in ten levels. Requires all the vows, though.

Mongoose87
2009-11-22, 04:19 AM
Arcane Hierophant is one, and I think Folchuran Lyricist is another.

Doc Roc
2009-11-22, 04:24 AM
Psychic Theurge + Ur-Priest + Ardent == Lulz

Edwin
2009-11-22, 04:25 AM
Ultimate Magus is a pretty good one, and you barely sacrifice any casting.

Though, it does have three, I think, levels where only the lowest level casting advances. But it has a bunch of class features, including metamagic reduction, to make up for it.

Edit: Oh, and it's arcane/arcane, as you requested.

Tyndmyr
2009-11-22, 04:31 AM
Nifty. I'm adding in stuff like Ur-Priest that have ten level caster progression as well, because frankly, they combo ridiculously well with dual progression classes.

Folchurian is interesting due to being bard/druid focused. Seems like an odd combo, but I guess someone out there has done it.

Anonymouswizard
2009-11-22, 04:33 AM
I believe you requested arcane/psionics? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/cerebremancer.htm)

BobVosh
2009-11-22, 04:33 AM
Ultimate Magus is a pretty good one, and you barely sacrifice any casting.

Though, it does have three, I think, levels where only the lowest level casting advances. But it has a bunch of class features, including metamagic reduction, to make up for it.

Edit: Oh, and it's arcane/arcane, as you requested.

That is why they made practiced spell caster, if you do it right you never loss a caster level.
Also use beguiler/wizard to get in. Sad is awesome.

Omegonthesane
2009-11-22, 04:35 AM
Nifty. I'm adding in stuff like Ur-Priest that have ten level caster progression as well, because frankly, they combo ridiculously well with dual progression classes.

Folchurian is interesting due to being bard/druid focused. Seems like an odd combo, but I guess someone out there has done it.

Historically, bards were one of the three main types of druid, and the first rules-legal process of becoming a bard in D&D involved druid-ing at some point. So, thematically, bard/druid is logical IRL. Just not in game because of what they turned bards into.

Trouble with Fohlucian is, no entry before level 10 IIRC. Myself I'd have made it a policy point that all theurge classes should be 18-level ones that are entered at 3rd level after dipping into the two classes to be advanced, but WotC really didn't realise how far they were going to go with PrCs back in the day.

Tyndmyr
2009-11-22, 04:40 AM
That is why they made practiced spell caster, if you do it right you never loss a caster level.
Also use beguiler/wizard to get in. Sad is awesome.

Mmmm, nice! Are there early entry to any of these? I mean, sure, getting level two arcane casting is possible via Precocious Apprentice, but are there equivalent feats for other types, and how would you accelerate skill rank requirements?

Edit: So far, I think I can just about pull off quad-9th level casting in gestalt by level 20.

Myrmex
2009-11-22, 04:46 AM
Sublime Chord has accelerated arcane casting.

Edwin
2009-11-22, 04:47 AM
That is why they made practiced spell caster, if you do it right you never loss a caster level.
Also use beguiler/wizard to get in. Sad is awesome.

I was not exactly worried about the loss of CL, because, yes, there's a feat for that.

I was referring to the loss of spell levels.

Veeda Vidlak
2009-11-22, 05:03 AM
I don't have my books in front of me, but Eldritch Theurge from Complete Mage advances warlock and arcane magic and is fairly decent. IIRC it has the ability to add an eldritch blast to an arcane spell cast, or it might have been vice-versa.

Gralamin
2009-11-22, 05:08 AM
If we are talking about Dual Progression Cheese, I'd have to point out that a wizard with Spontaneous Divination counts for both sides of Ultimate Magus at the same time. How is that for Arcane/Arcane?

Tyndmyr
2009-11-22, 05:21 AM
Thats actually a pretty interesting way to qualify for it...doesn't slow down wizard progression at all.

Im thinking, do that, then squeeze in a level of sublime chord for massive spont casting, then use Ult Magus to progress sublime chord/wizard.

Yay ridiculous amounts of arcane power.

Anonymouswizard
2009-11-22, 05:37 AM
If we are talking about Dual Progression Cheese, I'd have to point out that a wizard with Spontaneous Divination counts for both sides of Ultimate Magus at the same time. How is that for Arcane/Arcane?

CL 30? That's just cheating. (Note, Anonymous wizard does not take any responsibility for anyone called a cheater due to other characters reading this post).

BobVosh
2009-11-22, 05:41 AM
I was not exactly worried about the loss of CL, because, yes, there's a feat for that.

I was referring to the loss of spell levels.

Practice spell caster for your sorc levels. That way your wizard levels are the "lowest" CL. Then you only loss 1 level for wizard. When you take sorc. Er, beguiler.


Mmmm, nice! Are there early entry to any of these? I mean, sure, getting level two arcane casting is possible via Precocious Apprentice, but are there equivalent feats for other types, and how would you accelerate skill rank requirements?

Edit: So far, I think I can just about pull off quad-9th level casting in gestalt by level 20.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4962212&postcount=60

Edwin
2009-11-22, 06:12 AM
Practice spell caster for your sorc levels. That way your wizard levels are the "lowest" CL. Then you only loss 1 level for wizard. When you take sorc. Er, beguiler.


http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4962212&postcount=60

You are aware that Practiced Spellcaster only advances CL, not any other aspect of the spellcasting ability?

And as I said, I was not, at any point, worried about the loss of CL, but at the loss of advancement in the spell ability for the wizard side, because the OP's concern was not getting 9th level spells quick enough, not lower duration on spells.

BobVosh
2009-11-22, 06:34 AM
You are aware that Practiced Spellcaster only advances CL, not any other aspect of the spellcasting ability?

And as I said, I was not, at any point, worried about the loss of CL, but at the loss of advancement in the spell ability for the wizard side, because the OP's concern was not getting 9th level spells quick enough, not lower duration on spells.

I think I didn't make myself clear.

You can get in at 4th level if you precocious apprentice, I believe. However this is standard at 5th level without it.
1 Beguiler
3 Wizard
Take the feat practiced spell caster for beg levels.
1 level Ult Magus
You are now Beg-4(can't pass current level in 1 class) and 4 wizard
I'm not sure when the three skipped levels are, but I think it is 3, 6, and 9.
so 2 more Ult magus (1 beg, 3 wiz, 3 UM)CL: 6 (1+2+4, caps at ECL) beg, 6 wiz
3 more levels ult magus(1 beg, 3 wiz, 6 UM)CL: 9 (1+4+4, caps at ECL) beg, 9 wiz
3 more levels ult magus(1 beg, 3 wiz, 9 UM)CL: 11 beg(1+6+4, caps at ECL), 12 wizard (tied before current level bump, choose wizard)
last level Ult Magus CL:12 beg and 13 wizard.
Only 7th level beguiler spell casting, but 13 wizard at level 14 isn't bad. 9th level spells at 18 instead of 17.

Radar
2009-11-22, 07:02 AM
There was a gestalt Omnicaster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3945177) build around here. I can't recognise half the classes used, but most of them are dual progression classes of all sorts and there is a lot of them.

BobVosh
2009-11-22, 07:04 AM
There was a gestalt Omnicaster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3945177) build around here. I can't recognise half the classes used, but most of them are dual progression classes of all sorts and there is a lot of them.

Bah I spent forever looking for that. I gave up and used the link I found earlier :'(

Edwin
2009-11-22, 07:58 AM
I think I didn't make myself clear.

You can get in at 4th level if you precocious apprentice, I believe. However this is standard at 5th level without it.
1 Beguiler
3 Wizard
Take the feat practiced spell caster for beg levels.
1 level Ult Magus
You are now Beg-4(can't pass current level in 1 class) and 4 wizard
I'm not sure when the three skipped levels are, but I think it is 3, 6, and 9.
so 2 more Ult magus (1 beg, 3 wiz, 3 UM)CL: 6 (1+2+4, caps at ECL) beg, 6 wiz
3 more levels ult magus(1 beg, 3 wiz, 6 UM)CL: 9 (1+4+4, caps at ECL) beg, 9 wiz
3 more levels ult magus(1 beg, 3 wiz, 9 UM)CL: 11 beg(1+6+4, caps at ECL), 12 wizard (tied before current level bump, choose wizard)
last level Ult Magus CL:12 beg and 13 wizard.
Only 7th level beguiler spell casting, but 13 wizard at level 14 isn't bad. 9th level spells at 18 instead of 17.

I'm not really sure why you need to make yourself clear on anything? I am quite capable of creating a build exactly like the one you've got there?

Although, I don't see why I would need to.

Also, I can't be sure because I can hardly read what you wrote, but something seems off.

Androgeus
2009-11-22, 08:51 AM
I'm not really sure why you need to make yourself clear on anything? I am quite capable of creating a build exactly like the one you've got there?

Although, I don't see why I would need to.

Also, I can't be sure because I can hardly read what you wrote, but something seems off.

What he is doing, if I remeber rightly, is using practiced spellcaster so that his Beguiler Caster level is not his lowest CL. This means that he can apply the single spell level increasing levels of UM on Wizard instead (well the first two anyway).

FMArthur
2009-11-22, 09:27 AM
Well as long as we are including builds that involve cheating in this thread (Omnicaster), Beholder Mage from Lords of Madness is a 10-level class that casts 1st- through 9th-level arcane spells from the sorceror/wizard list spontaneously as free actions with unlimited spells known (seriously) and is actually rules-legal, but stilll gets you thrown out of games. You need to buy a casting of Polymorph Any Object to turn into a Beholder permanently and take the feat Metamorphic Transfer (Antimagic Eye) to enter the class, and Metamorphic Transfer (Eye Rays) to use its class features. Metamorphic Transfer only requires 5 manifester levels.

Anyway, you can enter Beholder Mage at sixth level and it's fast-progression, which is why I bring it up.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-11-22, 10:33 AM
I'm not really sure why you need to make yourself clear on anything? I am quite capable of creating a build exactly like the one you've got there?

Although, I don't see why I would need to.

Also, I can't be sure because I can hardly read what you wrote, but something seems off.

Ultimate Magus requires Spellcraft 8 ranks, so you'd need to go something like Beguiler 1/ Wizard 4/ UM. In order to put 10/10 UM spellcasting toward Wizard you'll need Practiced Spellcaster: Beguiler and you'll need to be an Illumian with the Krau sigil. The best thing about that is that Illumians are Humanoid (Human) and qualify for Able Learner, so that character can fill the less-than-crucial role of skill/trapmonkey without sacrificing any spellcasting ability. With two flaws you could use Versatile Spellcaster to start out Beguiler 1/ Wizard 1/ Master Specialist 3/ UM, but there wouldn't be room for Able Learner. Versatile Spellcaster would allow you to use two Beguiler spell slots of the same level to cast any Beguiler or Wizard spell you know of one higher level, and note that the spell need not even be in your spellbook you just have to have made the Spellcraft check to understand and learn it.

Frog Dragon
2009-11-22, 10:35 AM
Is there a Truename Caster/Arcane Caster anywhere?

Kylarra
2009-11-22, 11:09 AM
Divine Crusader gets you 9th level spells in a 10 progression as well, albeit only from 1 domain.

ranagrande
2009-11-22, 11:15 AM
Apostle of Peace gets fast track divine casting as well.

Ozymandias9
2009-11-22, 11:16 AM
It's perhaps the most limiting PRC in existence, but Apostle of Peace (BoED) has accelerated Divine progression as well.

I think you have all the dual progression casters already.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-22, 11:18 AM
It's perhaps the most limiting PRC in existence, but Apostle of Peace (BoED) has accelerated Divine progression as well.

I think you have all the dual progression casters already.Noctumancer.

Ozymandias9
2009-11-22, 11:27 AM
Yeah, found a couple more myself:
Player's Guide to Faerun has Yathrinshee, which is only open to Female drow, but it isn't full progression.

And Dragon #311 has Green Whisperer, which is Bard Druid.

ranagrande
2009-11-22, 12:25 PM
There's the True Necromancer from Libris Mortis too, but it sucks.

FMArthur
2009-11-22, 12:33 PM
Divine Crusader gets you 9th level spells in a 10 progression as well, albeit only from 1 domain.

If you do want to use it to become something like a real caster, the Sovereign Speaker PrC from Faiths of Eberron adds a domain every level. Combining the right domains could probably get you a better spell list than an Ur-Priest even though you have fewer spells, and casts off of Charisma if that's important to a particular build idea. It's fairly useful for fast-track casting unless you need to use said casting for a dual-progression build; in which case the lost caster levels in Sovereign Speaker and the BAB +7 requirement of Divine Crusader make builds involving them rather restrictive.

Tyndmyr
2009-11-22, 12:43 PM
There was a gestalt Omnicaster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3945177) build around here. I can't recognise half the classes used, but most of them are dual progression classes of all sorts and there is a lot of them.

It's not legal, unfortunately. Anima Mage is a prestige class, and you can't have prestige classes on both sides of the progression. Actually, I think he breaks that rule pretty routinely.

FMArthur
2009-11-22, 12:55 PM
It's not legal, unfortunately. Anima Mage is a prestige class, and you can't have prestige classes on both sides of the progression. Actually, I think he breaks that rule pretty routinely.

You also aren't supposed to have dual-progression prestige classes at all in gestalt. I honestly don't understand the point of it, even as a thought exercise.

"Well, if you cheat in the uncommonly-used variant ruleset specifically geared towards making powerful combination characters, you can make an even more powerful combination character!"

:smallconfused:

Tyndmyr
2009-11-22, 01:03 PM
You also aren't supposed to have dual-progression prestige classes at all in gestalt. I honestly don't understand the point of it, even as a thought exercise.

"Well, if you cheat in the uncommonly-used variant ruleset specifically geared towards making powerful combination characters, you can make an even more powerful combination character!"

:smallconfused:

Exactly. It's already possible to make horribly powerful gestalt builds strictly within the rules, I don't see the point of circumventing them. At that point, it's not really TO anymore, and it's certainly not a practical build.

Will post legal quad 9 casting build once finished. I've got it at 9/9/9/7 atm.

Zaq
2009-11-22, 02:35 PM
Is there a Truename Caster/Arcane Caster anywhere?

No prestige class advances Utterances (or Truenamer caster level, unless your GM is merciful and counts unspecified "+1 level of existing casting class." But that's not quite RAW, just RAMS). I have said it before, and I'll say it again: Truenamers get zero love.

Anyway, there's also the Soulcaster (Arcane/Meldshaping), Soul Manifester (online; Psionic/Meldshaping) and Sapphire Hierarch (Divine/Meldshaping).

Tyndmyr
2009-11-22, 02:49 PM
Bah, can't seem to ever quite hit the coveted four nines. This one's close. I could drop a level each of Ur-priest and Sublime Chord to boost something else instead, but that still only gives us 9/9/9/8. Well, 10/10/9/8/1/1 actually, but who's counting?

Lil' Timmy.


20 Ulti/Psion->Ulti boosts Subl/Wiz
19 Ulti/Wiz ->Ulti boosts Sorc/Wiz
18 Ulti/Wiz ->Ulti boosts Subl
17 Ulti/Sorc ->Ulti boosts Subl/Wiz
5 Ulti/Sorc ->Ulti boosts Wiz
16 Myst/Wiz ->Myst is Subl/Urpr
15 Myst/Wiz ->Myst is Subl/Urpr
14 Myst/Sorc ->Myst is Subl/Urpr
13 Myst/Sorc ->Myst is Subl/Urpr
12 Myst/Sorc ->Myst is Subl/Urpr
11 Myst/Sorc ->Myst is Subl/Urpr
10 Subl/Sorc
9 Myst/Wiz ->Myst is Sorc/Urpr
8 Myst/Wiz ->Myst is Sorc/Urpr
7 UrPr/Wiz ->Myst is Sorc/Urpr
6 UrPr/Sorc
5 Ulti/Sorc ->Ulti boosts Wiz
4 Wiz /Sorc
3 Wiz /Sorc
2 Sorc/Wiz
1 Bard/Sorc

Out of box, casts as a maxed Urpriest, maxed Sublime Chord, 18 sorc, 1 bard, 15 wiz. There's room for minor skill and stat optimization, and of course, caster levels can be tweaked somewhat, but as is, it looks pretty solid, and has the same progression as a standard sorc through level 14, meaning that it's actually playable at low levels. If you prefer wizard over sorc, the two can be switched with relatively little trouble.

With the fun epic cheese granted us by dragonwrought kobold, it ends up casting the following spell levels: 12th lvl Sublime Chord, 12th lvl Ur-Priest, 11th lvl Sorc, 7th lvl Wiz(8th if you want to sac 9th lvl Ur-priest and Sublime slots), 1st lvl bard.

Messy Details:
PRC Requirements:
Ur-Priest: Fort +3, Will +3, 6 ranks Bluff, 5 ranks Knowledge(Arcana), 5 ranks Knowledge(Planes), 8 ranks Knowledge(religion), 8 ranks Spellcraft, Iron Will, Malign Spell Focus.

Mystic Theurge: Can cast 2nd lvl arcane & divine. 6 ranks Knowledge(Arcana), 6 ranks Knowledge(Religion)

Sublime Chord: Can cast 3rd lvl arcane. 6 ranks Spellcraft, 6 ranks Profession(Astrologer), 10 ranks Perform(any), Listen 13 ranks, Knowledge(Arcana) 13 ranks. Bardic Music ability.

Ultimate Magus: Any metamagic feat, spot cast 1st lvl arcane, prepared cast 2nd lvl arcane, Knowledge(Arcana) 4 ranks, Spellcraft 8 ranks.

Total of 3 feats needed.
Total of Listen 13 ranks, Knowledge(Arcana) 13 ranks, Profession(Astrologer) 6 ranks, Spellcraft 8 ranks, Perform(Any) 10 ranks, Knowledge(Religion) 8 ranks, Knowledge(Planes) 8 ranks, Bluff 6 ranks.

Assuming 32 pt buy, but doable with less.

Str: 8
Dex: 8
Con: 8
Int: 18
Wis: 14
Cha: 16

Race: Kobold.



Aright, level 1. Dragonwrought kobold, two flaws of choice. Obviously, take the age modifiers. This gives us two feats available at level 1, so we finish off the prereqs for Ur-Priest Pre-emptively. Thanks to bard/Sorc, we have a decent selection of class skills and 44 points to play with.

Skill buy: 4 ranks in each of the required skills listed above. This leaves you with 8 points extra, so probably max concentration as well, and whatever two other skills seem fun.

Level 2- 7 Skill Points: 1 Spellcraft, 1 Bluff, Knowledge(Arcana), 1 Knowledge(Planes), 1 Knowledge Religion, 1 Profession(Astrologer), half a rank of Perform(Any)-CC

Level 3- 7 Skill Points: 1 Spellcraft, 1 Bluff, Knowledge(Arcana), 1 Knowledge(Planes), 1 Knowledge Religion, 1 Profession(Astrologer), half a rank perform(Any)-CC
Feat: Metamagic feat of choice

Stats at this point:
Str: 8
Dex: 8
Con: 8
Int: 21
Wis: 17
Cha: 19

Unmet skill requirements:Listen 4/13, Knowledge(Arcana) 6/13 ranks, Spellcraft 6/8, Perform(Any) 5/10, Knowledge(Religion) 6/8, Knowledge(Planes) 6/8.


Level 4- 8 Skill Points: 1 Spellcraft, Knowledge(Arcana), 1 Knowledge(Planes), 1 Knowledge Religion, 1.5 ranks perform(Any)-CC
Stat boost goes to Int.

Level 5 - 8 Skill Points: 1 Spellcraft, Knowledge(Arcana), 1 Knowledge(Planes), 1 Knowledge Religion, 1.5 ranks perform(Any)-CC


Stats at this point:
Str: 8
Dex: 8
Con: 8
Int: 22
Wis: 17
Cha: 19

Unmet skill requirements:Listen 4/13, Knowledge(Arcana) 8/13 ranks, Perform(Any) 8/10.

Level 6 - 8 Skill points: 1 Knowledge(Arcana), 1 Perform(Any)-CC, 2.5 Listen-CC
Feat: Great Wisdom[Epic]

Stats at this point:
Str: 8
Dex: 8
Con: 8
Int: 22
Wis: 18
Cha: 19

Unmet skill requirements:Listen 6.5/13, Knowledge(Arcana) 9/13 ranks, Perform(Any) 9/10.

Level 7 - 8 Skill points: 1 Knowledge(Arcana), 1 Perform(Any)-CC, 2.5 Listen-CC

Level 8 - 8 Skill points: 1 Knowledge(Arcana), 1 Listen-CC, 5 ANY
Stat Boost: Wis

Stats at this point:
Str: 8
Dex: 8
Con: 8
Int: 22
Wis: 19
Cha: 19

Unmet skill requirements:Listen 10/13, Knowledge(Arcana) 10/13 ranks.

At this point, it becomes rather easy for a bit. Just ensure the above two skills remain maxed out through level 10, after which, skills are irrelevant.

Level 9 Feat-> Whatever. Really, it won't matter much, you're going to chaos shuffle this later anyway.

Level 12 Stat boost-Wis(you'll max divine casting first, so the higher save DC here will be useful.)

Level 16 Stat boost goes to cha. I suggest using the level 20 stat boost to int, keeping a nice even modifier after you chaos shuffle away the stat boost.

At level 15, I suggest you grab Improved Spell Capacity. You already have 9th level casting as an Ur-Priest, so this boosts it to 10th, for extra slots. At 18, do the same for Sublime Chord.

Now, at level 20, we already have three 9s. Well, two 10s and a 9, technically. Divine, as per lvl 10 Ur-Priest, Spont Arcane, as per lvl 18 Sorc, and Arcane as per lvl 10 Sublime Chord, which has the entire Wiz, Sorc, and Bard spell lists available.

As a fringe benefit, lil' Timmy already casts as a Wizard 15, and bard 1.

Lets look at what lil'Timmy can chaos shuffle away. We've got two extra metamagic feats, Scribe Scroll, and your level 6, 9, and 12 feats, at a minimum. All these are going into the epic feats of your choice. I suggest Improved Spell Capcity, six times. This gives your favorite two casting classes level 12 slots, and the other, level 11. At this point, you should have item and inherent boosts high enough that casting any given slot should be a non-issue as well, but it's not actually that important, given Timmy's stat distribution.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-11-22, 02:51 PM
You also aren't supposed to have dual-progression prestige classes at all in gestalt.

That's not a rule. Dual-prestige-classes are banned, dual-progression is merely advised against (for reasons I can't entirely fathom).

Tyndmyr
2009-11-22, 02:53 PM
Well, it warns that the builds may get complex. This is a fair warning, though frankly, many gestalt builds can be complex.

Gralamin
2009-11-22, 02:58 PM
That's not a rule. Dual-prestige-classes are banned, dual-progression is merely advised against (for reasons I can't entirely fathom).

You can, however, not have two Prestige classes at the same time.

Tyndmyr
2009-11-22, 03:16 PM
Right. That's not a suggestion. Thus my build above, which tries to cram in as much casting goodness as possible while still being legal.

It might actually be playable from level 1 onward, too. Especially if retraining is in effect, due to low feat requirements from the build itself(technically, if you skipped the dragonwrought cheese, the PrCs only require 3. Not bad.), you can just pick up epic toughness to be a really, really tough sorc at low levels. You won't fall behind standard sorc progression until level 15, at which point you've already got level 7 divine spells.

FMArthur
2009-11-22, 04:02 PM
That's not a rule. Dual-prestige-classes are banned, dual-progression is merely advised against (for reasons I can't entirely fathom).

OH. Then four 9s isn't all that hard.


The Chessboard Upheaval
{table=head]Level|Gestalt Side 1|Gestalt Side 2|Race/Feats/Notes
1|Ardent 1| Druid 1|Human; Practiced Manifester (Ardent), Hidden Talent
2|Ardent 2| Druid 2|
3|Ardent 3| Druid 3|Expanded Knowledge
4|Ardent 4| Druid 4|Buy a casting of PaO to permanently become a Beholder
5|Ardent 5| Psion 1|Metamorphic Transfer (Antimagic Eye)
6|Beholder Mage 1| Ardent 6|Metamorphic Transfer (Eye Rays)
7|Beholder Mage 2| Ardent 7|
8|Cerebremancer 1|Druid 5|
9|Cerebremancer 2|Druid 6|Expanded Knowledge
10|Cerebremancer 3|Druid 7|
11|Cerebremancer 4|Druid 8|
12|Ur-Priest 1|Druid 9|Expanded Knowledge (Schism)
13|Ur-Priest 2|Druid 10|
14|Mystic Theurge 1|Druid 11|
15|Mystic Theurge 2|Druid 12|Expanded Knowledge
16|Mystic Theurge 3|Druid 13|
17|Psychic Theurge 1|Druid 14|
18|Psychic Theurge 2|Druid 15|Expanded Knowledge
19|Psychic Theurge 3|Druid 16|
20|Psychic Theurge 4|Druid 17|
[/table]

Druid is entirely replaceable here with 17 levels of whatever class you like; I simply picked Druid because of the Animal Companion. The Expanded Knowledges help turn Ardent into a caster worth mentioning, but none are required.
You wind up with:
-9th level sorc/wiz spells (1 spell of every level/round) with unlimited spells known
-9th-level Cleric Spells via Ur-Priest
-9th-level Druid Spells
-9th-level Ardent Powers plus a bunch of Expanded Knowledges for better powers
-Druid Animal Companion

Every round you can fire off 9 wizard spells with free actions, cast a cleric/druid spell with a standard action, manifest a psionic power through Schism, and have your Animal Companion do something (like read a book). Most of this gestalt build's feats and second half are completely maleable and not important to the build functioning.

Mongoose87
2009-11-22, 04:31 PM
Getting Polymorphed into a Beholder wouldn't give you inconvenient racial HD?

FMArthur
2009-11-22, 05:53 PM
Getting Polymorphed into a Beholder wouldn't give you inconvenient racial HD?

I really hope not, otherwise a life-long career as a fighter is suddenly even more of a laughable idea in the face of a 1200gp semipermanent commoner-to-dragon transformation. Not that it probably isn't already, but it would mean that it is cheaper to turn your peasant militia into horrible monsters than it is to simply outfit them with decent equipment!

Mongoose87
2009-11-22, 05:56 PM
I really hope not, otherwise a life-long career as a fighter is suddenly even more of a laughable idea in the face of a 1200gp semipermanent commoner-to-dragon transformation. Not that it probably isn't already, but it would mean that it is cheaper to turn your peasant militia into horrible monsters than it is to simply outfit them with decent equipment!

You wouldn't have to take them in place of levels?

FMArthur
2009-11-22, 06:18 PM
Actually, nevermind. It appears that Polymorph (and by extension Polymorph Any Object) is written so that you do get free HD. I don't think I have to explain how bad that is.

If I'm wrong there or if everyone just plays the other way regardless, I don't think you're forced into progressing the HD (like a monster class?) by any rules I know of.

Kurald Galain
2009-11-22, 06:29 PM
[center]The Chessboard Upheaval
I'll see you and raise... (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3945177)

FMArthur
2009-11-22, 06:48 PM
I'll see you and raise... (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3945177)

My build is rules-legal, and packs significantly more offensive power. :smalltongue:

Tyndmyr
2009-11-23, 12:41 AM
Agreed, builds that ignore the gestalt rules really don't count for much.


The biggest problem faced by the Chessboard build is it's reliance on PaO to Beholder. Since you have to be a true Beholder, not any of the variants, this drops your intelligence to 15, which is a bit of a problem considering that's your casting stat for Beholder Mage.

Also, the modifiers are such that your first PoO isn't permanent. You can't get the related bonus, you can't get the same class bonus(unless you somehow figured out another way to start play as an aberration). Size requires that you get become large(doable). Same or lower int is also doable. Same kingdom is questionable, as so far as I know, there's no definition of what kingdom an aberration falls into, and thus, it's arguable that it may not fall into animal. Unless it does, your max duration is 3 hrs. Thus, you need another casting of PoO on you while you are in beholder form to fix this.

Even worse, you can't actually gain the casting of the Beholder Mage in this way, since it requires the sacrifice of the central eye, and each level requires sacrificing the use of eye rays from an eye stalk. Being Su abilities, PoO doesn't grant any of these to you. So, you can't actually cast anything from this class, even if you manage to take it, and keep up the prereqs.

Thus, the only way this build appears to work is if you can actually begin play as a beholder. With a minimum of 12 racial hit die, this isn't likely to be an easy build to work with.

Book Wyrm
2009-11-23, 02:13 AM
This came up in another thread, but the best non-gestalt way to get two 9th level casting progressions that I can think of involves Geomancer.

This is off the top of my head so it isn't optimized, but: Wizard 3/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 4/Geomancer 10 gives you 17 level Wizard and 17th level Cleric casting.

Geomancer gives full caster progression and advances any "existing class" and is built to combine two casters into one. So just use it to advance Mystc Theurge progression, which advances both Wizard and Cleric.

I'm sure this could be improved, but I don't want to spend the time tweeking it.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-11-23, 02:25 AM
Agreed, builds that ignore the gestalt rules really don't count for much.


The biggest problem faced by the Chessboard build is it's reliance on PaO to Beholder. Since you have to be a true Beholder, not any of the variants, this drops your intelligence to 15, which is a bit of a problem considering that's your casting stat for Beholder Mage.

Also, the modifiers are such that your first PoO isn't permanent. You can't get the related bonus, you can't get the same class bonus(unless you somehow figured out another way to start play as an aberration). Size requires that you get become large(doable). Same or lower int is also doable. Same kingdom is questionable, as so far as I know, there's no definition of what kingdom an aberration falls into, and thus, it's arguable that it may not fall into animal. Unless it does, your max duration is 3 hrs. Thus, you need another casting of PoO on you while you are in beholder form to fix this.

Even worse, you can't actually gain the casting of the Beholder Mage in this way, since it requires the sacrifice of the central eye, and each level requires sacrificing the use of eye rays from an eye stalk. Being Su abilities, PoO doesn't grant any of these to you. So, you can't actually cast anything from this class, even if you manage to take it, and keep up the prereqs.

Thus, the only way this build appears to work is if you can actually begin play as a beholder. With a minimum of 12 racial hit die, this isn't likely to be an easy build to work with.

You can start as an Elan, which is a +0 LA Abberation. You even get the ability to blow PP to negate damage, although the ratio sucks.

The problem with sacrificing the eyes which you don't actually possess is another story entirely.

sofawall
2009-11-23, 02:40 AM
This came up in another thread, but the best non-gestalt way to get two 9th level casting progressions that I can think of involves Geomancer.

This is off the top of my head so it isn't optimized, but: Wizard 3/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 4/Geomancer 10 gives you 17 level Wizard and 17th level Cleric casting.

Geomancer gives full caster progression and advances any "existing class" and is built to combine two casters into one. So just use it to advance Mystc Theurge progression, which advances both Wizard and Cleric.

I'm sure this could be improved, but I don't want to spend the time tweeking it.

I like MT/Arcane Heirophant, myself.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-23, 03:01 AM
I'm surprised nobody's mentioned Chameleon, which can get arcane and divine casting.

That said, my personal favorite combination (for gestalt) is (human):

{table=header]Class 1 | Class 2 | Misc
Monk 1 | Warblade 1 | Tashalatora (Ardent)
Monk 2 | Warblade 2 |
Binder 1 | Warblade 3 | Practiced Manifester
Rogue 1 | Warblade 4 |
Ardent 1 | Swordsage 1 |
Ardent 2 | Ur-Priest 1 |
Ardent 3 | Church Inquisitor 1 |
Ardent 4 | Contemplative 1 |
Ardent 5 | Contemplative 2 |
Ardent 6 | Contemplative 3 |
Ardent 7 | Contemplative 4 |
Ardent 8 | Contemplative 5 |
Ardent 9 | Contemplative 6 |
Ardent 10 | Contemplative 7 |
Ardent 11 | Contemplative 8 |
Ardent 12 | Contemplative 9 |
Ardent 13 | Contemplative 10 |
Ardent 14 | Swordsage 2 |
Ardent 15 | Swordsage 3 |
Ardent 16 | Warblade 5 |[/table]

Gets most of the good stuff from monk as if you were a monk 18. Gets a binding, trapsense and skills, Full Cleric casting from Ur Priest, good dispelling ability, Turning, Maneuvers of an 11th level swordsage, Maneuvers of a 12th level warblade.

You have Wis to AC, Wis to Psionics, Wis to Cleric Casting. It's remarkably SAD, though charisma always helps, and a decent int score won't hurt. Very versatile. Can be built into a CODzilla, a support character (white raven and shadow hand mobility). With a little alteration, you can get a bit of RKV in there, as much as 5 levels. (Replace the last 5 levels on Class 2 with RKV, you'll still have an effective 10 levels of Ur-Priest)

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-11-23, 03:17 AM
This came up in another thread, but the best non-gestalt way to get two 9th level casting progressions that I can think of involves Geomancer.

This is off the top of my head so it isn't optimized, but: Wizard 3/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 4/Geomancer 10 gives you 17 level Wizard and 17th level Cleric casting.

Geomancer gives full caster progression and advances any "existing class" and is built to combine two casters into one. So just use it to advance Mystc Theurge progression, which advances both Wizard and Cleric.

I'm sure this could be improved, but I don't want to spend the time tweeking it.

Sorry, but that isn't right.

Geomancer advances spellcasting progression, correct. However, Mystic Theurge doesn't have spellcasting progression, it has the spell progression of two other classes instead.

A first level Mystic Theurge advances both arcane and divine casting of another class, but does not gain any independent casting in and of itself. Thus, using Gemancer to promote MT casting would end up with NO spellcasting advancements, as it has no spellcasting in and of itself, merely other class's casting.

FMArthur
2009-11-23, 06:38 AM
The biggest problem faced by the Chessboard build is it's reliance on PaO to Beholder. Since you have to be a true Beholder, not any of the variants, this drops your intelligence to 15, which is a bit of a problem considering that's your casting stat for Beholder Mage.
Gauths have 15 intelligence. Beholders have 17, which is perfectly servicable as a casting stat. Put your level-up bonuses into it, get a magic item, use wishes later on to bump it up even further.


Also, the modifiers are such that your first PoO isn't permanent. You can't get the related bonus, you can't get the same class bonus(unless you somehow figured out another way to start play as an aberration). Size requires that you get become large(doable). Same or lower int is also doable. Same kingdom is questionable, as so far as I know, there's no definition of what kingdom an aberration falls into, and thus, it's arguable that it may not fall into animal. Unless it does, your max duration is 3 hrs. Thus, you need another casting of PoO on you while you are in beholder form to fix this.
You even posted the solution for this one yourself: buy another casting of Polymorph (the first one need not be PaO). This is an easy problem with an obvious solution, so I don't see why you brought it up.


Even worse, you can't actually gain the casting of the Beholder Mage in this way, since it requires the sacrifice of the central eye, and each level requires sacrificing the use of eye rays from an eye stalk. Being Su abilities, PoO doesn't grant any of these to you. So, you can't actually cast anything from this class, even if you manage to take it, and keep up the prereqs.
Metamorphic Transfer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#metamorphicTransfer) is part of the build. Metamorphic Transfer (Antimagic Eye) gets you into the class and Metamorphic Transfer (Eye Rays) gets you the benefits of the class.


Thus, the only way this build appears to work is if you can actually begin play as a beholder. With a minimum of 12 racial hit die, this isn't likely to be an easy build to work with.
Beholders don't have a Level Adjustment, so you can't ever start as one.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-23, 06:57 AM
Gauths have 15 intelligence. Beholders have 17, which is perfectly servicable as a casting stat. Put your level-up bonuses into it, get a magic item, use wishes later on to bump it up even further.Level up bonuses apply when they're gained. That means that at a minimum, you're losing the level 4 boost.


You even posted the solution for this one yourself: buy another casting of Polymorph (the first one need not be PaO). This is an easy problem with an obvious solution, so I don't see why you brought it up.If you're an Elan, with an Int higher than 17, you don't even need that.


Metamorphic Transfer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#metamorphicTransfer) is part of the build. Metamorphic Transfer (Antimagic Eye) gets you into the class and Metamorphic Transfer (Eye Rays) gets you the benefits of the class.I don't believe you need to designate each meta transfer until you change.


Beholders don't have a Level Adjustment, so you can't ever start as one.
One other thing to note as well:
You can lose an entire PRC's worth of benefits very easily to a single dispel. Any path that relies on a spell with a duration of (Permanent) is very, very risky.

FMArthur
2009-11-23, 07:46 AM
Level up bonuses apply when they're gained. That means that at a minimum, you're losing the level 4 boost.
You can buy the PaO at third level (I was listing it in fourth because there was empty space in the table).

If you're an Elan, with an Int higher than 17, you don't even need that.
Being the same creature type isn't guaranteed to benefit you; that's just an interpretation of the Same Class parameter in PaO's duration. Elans are good anyway, but it costs 280gp to get someone to cast Polymorph on you before getting Polymorph Any Object cast on you, so your starting race isn't significant to the build.

I don't believe you need to designate each meta transfer until you change.Well, either way you need to take it twice (and it specifically allows being taken twice anyway).

One other thing to note as well:
You can lose an entire PRC's worth of benefits very easily to a single dispel. Any path that relies on a spell with a duration of (Permanent) is very, very risky.
Keep extra scrolls of PaO. Dedicate your standard actions to counterspelling. Get rings of counterspelling. Get other effects to prevent dispels. Destroy your enemies and everything within 50ft of them as soon as they come into existence. Get Eyestalk grafts on your normal form for preposterous amounts of money (195000gp; Fiend Folio p209). I shouldn't have posted it as a build, since it was more of an idea with very few specifics actually worked out. It can work and work well, but there is definitely room for improvement and most things were left up to the hypothetical player to work out on their own.

Tyndmyr
2009-11-23, 09:35 AM
In fairness, this is all mostly tossing ideas around. My build could probably be improved by using psion instead of one of the vancian classes for more variety in available spells. Personal preference there.

Eyestalk grafts on your normal form, unfortunately, aren't enough to retain access to the PrC's abilities if your PaO gets dispelled, since you no longer fulfill the entry requirements. You would of course, still have other casting available, though.

Being item-dependant for casting stats always worries me too. Sure, disjunction/targetted disintegrates are rare, but if you do get hit with one, it's game over. Also, weak save DCs. You've got enough level ups post-transformation to get to 19, sure....

But what happens if someone does dispell it late game? You get someone to PoO you back, and suddenly, you're at default beholder int again.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-23, 10:00 AM
You can buy the PaO at third level (I was listing it in fourth because there was empty space in the table).For about half your WBL, and the lovely option of needing to still spell most of your spells for the first 5 levels or so after you do it.


Being the same creature type isn't guaranteed to benefit you; that's just an interpretation of the Same Class parameter in PaO's duration. Elans are good anyway, but it costs 280gp to get someone to cast Polymorph on you before getting Polymorph Any Object cast on you, so your starting race isn't significant to the build.
Well, either way you need to take it twice (and it specifically allows being taken twice anyway).
A human can do it quite easily, actually, without all that.
Enlarge Person. Now I'm a large human.
Same Kingdom (animal, vegetable, mineral) +5, Same Size (large) +2, Same or lower intelligence (17) +2. Done. With a level 1 spell, and a 17 intelligence. And if you're going for beholder mage, you can likely cast the enlarge on your own.


Keep extra scrolls of PaO. Dedicate your standard actions to counterspelling. Get rings of counterspelling. Get other effects to prevent dispels. Destroy your enemies and everything within 50ft of them as soon as they come into existence. Get Eyestalk grafts on your normal form for preposterous amounts of money (195000gp; Fiend Folio p209). I shouldn't have posted it as a build, since it was more of an idea with very few specifics actually worked out. It can work and work well, but there is definitely room for improvement and most things were left up to the hypothetical player to work out on their own.With that many books, there are a great many ways to counter. If you don't have the exact spell (and there are many), it's caster level check time, and a dispeller will win that war.

Also, even if you have eye grafts on your normal form, you no longer qualify for the class. Even if you did, that isn't the eyestalk that you gave up casting on to get a spellstalk. Even if you PaO back, you poly back and get the standard stalks. They aren't the ones you gave up for spellstalks.

In other words? One successful dispel destroys you.

FMArthur
2009-11-23, 10:43 AM
Look, it was just a skeleton idea for a multicaster build. There are flaws. There are risks. Nobody will ever play one. I didn't want to spend more time arguing about it than I did making it; I set out to show off a stupidly powerful build idea abusing gestalt rules, fast-track casting classes, and dual-progression classes that is technically rules-legal and gets four nines in casting. Success! I'm happy knowing it works; that was the only goal. I don't really care how feasible it is in a real game.

Starbuck_II
2009-11-23, 10:45 AM
Since Eyekin are beholderlike humans: are they the same class?

Tyndmyr
2009-11-23, 11:34 AM
Since Eyekin are beholderlike humans: are they the same class?

Won't work, Im afraid. Beholder Mage specifies true beholders only, and goes on to say that all beholderkin do not satisfy this requirement.

Edit: This isn't so much to say the build is bad per se, as that the Beholder Mage class itself is the problem. ANY use of Beholder Mage will run into the exact same issues. Basically, unless your DM lets you start as a true beholder with no or quite low LA, the class will be of no particular use.

jiriku
2009-11-23, 02:12 PM
Jade Phoenix Mage (arcane caster/martial initiator) and Ruby Knight Vindicator (divine caster/martial initiator) are also both dual-progression classes of a sort.

d13
2009-11-23, 02:31 PM
Anima Mage (ToM) advances both Arcane Casting and Vestige Binding.

Danin
2009-11-23, 04:24 PM
In a side bar in ToM for the shadow caster, it specifically states that Mystic Thurge can be used to progress both shadow casting and arcane casting, allowing you to take it after Noctomancer and still peg level 9 wizard casting and level 9 shadow casting.

Tyndmyr
2009-11-25, 12:37 PM
In a side bar in ToM for the shadow caster, it specifically states that Mystic Thurge can be used to progress both shadow casting and arcane casting, allowing you to take it after Noctomancer and still peg level 9 wizard casting and level 9 shadow casting.

Really? Nice trick!

Shame you can't take more than 10 levels in a prestige class until epic levels, though.

taltamir
2009-11-25, 04:23 PM
I really hope not, otherwise a life-long career as a fighter is suddenly even more of a laughable idea in the face of a 1200gp semipermanent commoner-to-dragon transformation. Not that it probably isn't already, but it would mean that it is cheaper to turn your peasant militia into horrible monsters than it is to simply outfit them with decent equipment!

its even cheaper to have a were-alignment suitable bite them... werebear if you wanna be lawful good.

Tyndmyr
2009-11-25, 04:27 PM
It's always been cheaper to turn your followers into monstrosities than to equip them properly. Magical equipment is expensive while most spells(if a caster), are nearly free.

taltamir
2009-11-25, 06:46 PM
actually... why ISN'T there a werebear country?

your were alignment eventually wins, and some were creatures are good. I could see paladins infecting an entire country with a "good" were strain.

You don't have to be a caster, just walk around biting people.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-11-25, 07:38 PM
actually... why ISN'T there a werebear country?

your were alignment eventually wins, and some were creatures are good. I could see paladins infecting an entire country with a "good" were strain.

You don't have to be a caster, just walk around biting people.

Because Paladins are immune to Disease, including Lycanthropy.

avr
2009-11-26, 05:39 PM
On the original topic, are you counting classes which add spells from other classes to your spell list?

Tyndmyr
2009-11-27, 12:27 AM
On the original topic, are you counting classes which add spells from other classes to your spell list?

If it's significant, like a domain added to an arcane caster or something, such as Elven Generalist allows, we could make a list of that. Something that just adds a single spell probably isn't worth listing unless it's quite exceptional(Wish without xp, for example).