PDA

View Full Version : Monk Variant Tiers [3.5]



Starscream
2009-11-22, 12:25 PM
Ever since I started playing 3.5, I've had a soft spot for monks. It didn't take me long to realize that they are pretty weak (d8 HD and 3/4 BAB for a melee class?!), but the idea of adding Bruce Lee to a Lord of the Rings type setting is pure concentrated awesome.

Even though they don't achieve their intended purpose, I can't help but love any character who will walk up to a dragon without a weapon or armor and start punching it. So rather than simply not bother with the class, I've always tried to find ways to achieve the same thing, but make it work. There have been a lot of Monk fixes on this forum, it seems to be one of our most common pastimes.

So I was wondering if anyone knew what Tier these common Monk fixes occupy (normal monks being Tier 5).

1) Monk with d10 HD and full BAB: 5
2) Unarmed Swordsage Variant (normal Swordsage is Tier 3): 3
3) Monk with Vow of Poverty: 5
4) Fax Celestis' excellent variant (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Monk): 3
5) The Pathfinder Monk (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/basic-classes/monk): 4
6) Myth Weavers (http://www.myth-weavers.com/showthread.php?t=64436) Monk: I'm gonna say 4. Seems about right
7) PD Monk (http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AYdLcxsM7Nx0ZGc2NzhibjNfNzJnNWpkZDJ2cA&hl=en): 3? Not sure. Hard to say with it being 10 levels long.
8) Any other variants you guys are fond of

Grynning
2009-11-22, 12:34 PM
Two monk threads already....yeesh...

1) Monk with d10 HD and full BAB:

Tier 5 - about the same as a Dungeoncrasher fighter (I need coffee, this is not tier 4).

2) Unarmed Swordsage Variant (normal Swordsage is Tier 3):

Still a Swordsage. Still Tier 3

3) Monk with Vow of Poverty:

Still Tier 5 - Vow of Poverty limits your options further, it does NOT make you better.

4) Fax Celestis' excellent variant (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Monk):

Harder to call, since this is intended for use alongside Fax's other rebalanced classes for the d20Rebirth project (all excellent work, btw, even though I'm a 4th ed convert). I'd put it about Tier 3, which seems to be about the balance point he's aiming for

5) The Pathfinder Monk (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/basic-classes/monk)

Pathfinder Monks are still pretty meh. Their Flurry of Blows has a better BAB, but they still get screwed on action economy because it's still a full round action. Their Stunning Fist is waaaayyy cool, but the save DC's are still so low it'll probably never work on anything. I'd say Tier 4.

6) Any other variants you guys are fond of

I like giving monks their Wis bonus to attack and damage, making Flurry of Blows a standard action, and making Abundant Step and Quivering Palm abilities be per encounter. That still probably only makes them Tier 4 or so, but decent Tier 4.

Gametime
2009-11-22, 12:36 PM
I can't speak to all the variants, but a monk with full BAB and d10 HD would probably still be tier 5, albeit a high tier 5. It's basically a fighter with restrictive bonus feats and several unhelpful class features at that point - sounds familiar? (Cough CW Samurai cough cough.)

The Unarmed Swordsage is still tier 3. You don't lose much at all from not being able to use a weapon. You don't really GAIN anything, mind you, and you lose a bit of armor without magic items, but you don't lose much. The maneuvers are enough to make the swordsage tier 3 without any other class features, and those are intact.

VoP monk is...actually probably a weaker tier 5 than the standard monk. You get cheap enhancement for natural attacks, which is a nice alternative to the Savage Species item, and you get slightly more ability bonuses than magic items can provide, but you don't get all the wonderful versatility of magic items that mimic spells. A VoP monk CAN do all right, but it's going to rely on having a spellcaster ready to buff the living daylights out of you because you can't use magic items like everyone else.

Need to fly? Everyone else has boots for it, but you need a spell.
Need to turn invisible? Everyone else has a ring for it, but you need a spell.

And so on. VoP basically pre-chooses all your magic items for you, and that's a problem. The bonus exalted feats aren't really too helpful, either. VoP works fine at lower levels, but at higher levels the game makes a lot of assumptions about what things you'll be capable of thanks to your items, and VoP doesn't provide much of a replacement.

(This isn't unique to the monk - I'm still unconvinced that any class benefits from VoP besides meldshapers, and that's just because they have something better to do with most of their magic item slots anyway.)

Gametime
2009-11-22, 12:37 PM
Two monk threads already....yeesh...

1) Monk with d10 HD and full BAB:

Tier 4 - about the same as a Dungeoncrasher fighter



I'm curious as to your reasoning for this. They're a dungeoncrasher fighter with restrictive feats, less damage output, worse AC, and slightly better skills. That doesn't seem about the same at all.

Grynning
2009-11-22, 12:40 PM
I'm curious as to your reasoning for this. They're a dungeoncrasher fighter with restrictive feats, less damage output, worse AC, and slightly better skills. That doesn't seem about the same at all.

Edited my post, you're right. :smallredface:

Also, I was tempted to be cheeky in number 6 and say the 4th Edition monk. 4th ed Monks are gorram Jedi, and are pretty awesome.

Djibriel
2009-11-22, 01:27 PM
If Unarmed Swordsage counts, Tashalatora (Psychic Warrior with Unarmed Strike progression) might also count for your purposess.

Starscream
2009-11-22, 02:03 PM
Thank you for the responses, guys. I've updated the original post to include the general consensus.

Shademan
2009-11-22, 02:05 PM
http://www.myth-weavers.com/showthread.php?t=64436
how about this one?

Doc Roc
2009-11-22, 02:06 PM
And, I must ask, what of the PD one?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-22, 02:08 PM
Don't you have a monk fix, Doc Roc?

Doc Roc
2009-11-22, 02:11 PM
Actually, the Penny Dreadfuls have a monk fix, and it's tested very well in the ToS. That would be the PD Monk I referenced, which you can find in my sig.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-22, 02:12 PM
But it's only ten levels long!

ranagrande
2009-11-22, 02:12 PM
If Unarmed Swordsage counts, Tashalatora (Psychic Warrior with Unarmed Strike progression) might also count for your purposess.

I just had another brainstorm...

What if you just gave Monks the benefits of the Vow of Poverty feat as class features, without requiring them to be poor?

It makes sense thematically, it gives them a nice bit of a boost, but it wouldn't be overpowering.

9mm
2009-11-22, 02:13 PM
1) Monk with d10 HD and full BAB:
it does better but still at 5, though a grapple focused could go into tier 4 at early levels
2) Unarmed Swordsage Variant (normal Swordsage is Tier 3): swordsage is swordsage, tier 3
3) Monk with Vow of Poverty: people say this is 5, I say 6... monks need magic to keep up; period
4) Fax Celestis' excellent variant (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Monk): hard to say as it's balanced against a different paradime.
5) The Pathfinder Monk (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/basic-classes/monk): actually depends on wheather it is only open to the full 3.5 libary or just pathfinder libary. if full 3.5 libary it jumps about 2 tiers to low 3/high 4, as pathfinder goes kinda nuts under those circumstances. Pathifinder only, it's about a 4 as the ablities work slighty better + access to vital strike (do not underestimate that feat line).
6) Any other variants you guys are fond of: I like the Penny Dreadful version. I'd say its around 3.

Doc Roc
2009-11-22, 02:16 PM
Our experience suggests that 9's assessment is generally correct, and that the PD monk sits at about mid T3, ranging to mid T2 in cases of sophisticated builds like this one (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=161709).

ocdscale
2009-11-22, 02:22 PM
Thank you for the responses, guys. I've updated the original post to include the general consensus.

Did you make a typo regarding the Fax Celestis variant?

Doc Roc
2009-11-22, 02:32 PM
No, it's pretty solidly T4-5. It has a couple of cool moves, but it's just not up to spec with a warblade for example.

Starscream
2009-11-22, 02:50 PM
Did you make a typo regarding the Fax Celestis variant?

Yes, actually I meant for it to be a 3. Fixed.

ranagrande
2009-11-22, 02:50 PM
I require feedback. :smalltongue:

So anyway, how would you people rate a Monk that gets Vow of Poverty at first level as a bonus feat without needing to meet the prerequisites, and which retains the benefits thereof even when using expensive and/or magical toys?

To prevent it from being abused by other classes dipping into Monk, the VoP benefits would be based on the Monk's class level, rather than on character level.

T.G. Oskar
2009-11-22, 02:54 PM
I'll just add these just in case, for purpose of...fairness?:
Regular Monk fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2276450&postcount=33) (Lord Iames Osari)

Monk of the Sublime Way (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29762) (Pax Chi)

Psychic Monk (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34411) (Lord Iames Osari)

And, even though it's shameless self-promotion (about the only promotion that seems to work...); Retooled Monk (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126346) (me)

I...got most of these from the Compendium (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120075), which leads me to ask how much is it used (and if it should be real-stickied instead of pseudo-stickied)

TheCountAlucard
2009-11-22, 02:58 PM
How about Frank and K's Monk?

Doc Roc
2009-11-22, 03:32 PM
Basically, I think a great deal of the power of the PD monk actually comes from the conceptual clarity we gained by offering it as 10 levels. Effectively, level 11 is an incredibly crucial level, at which the game changes in a deep and very potent way. Hitting things stops being perfectly relevant at L11, in my opinion, and my extensive experience. You'd hit 11th, and look at your features list, then look up at me, and ask me where your class went, and I'd have to tell you that poor lil monk had to go, had to run off back to the farm to tend its sick mother. I'd shed a tear as I said it, knowing that monk was lying broken in the dirt, slammed into ash by Death By Thorns or some similar bit of wizardly madness.

Let me repeat that.

Hitting things begins to matter less and less as the game moves on, and this is something I hold to be incorruptible fact given the basis of 3.x. If you wanna talk pure homebrew, we can, but as long as we live in a game with full-casters that don't get gimped by brewing stuff up.....

deuxhero
2009-11-22, 03:54 PM
While the fighting styles (UA) are not enough to take the monk up a tier, a few (Passive way) make it half decent (and may make a signicent movment within the tier when combined with full BAB, hitdie and fixing flurry/fast move clashs)

Doc Roc
2009-11-22, 04:11 PM
While the fighting styles (UA) are not enough to take the monk up a tier, a few (Passive way) make it half decent (and may make a significant movement within the tier when combined with full BAB, hitdice and fixing flurry/fast move clashes)

I actually think they're pretty terrible, but they are popular. At this point, though, you'd be talking about:

How well does a monk that has a good version of flurry, full bab, and good hitdice do when it happens to use Passive Way?

And I think the answer is...

About as well as a monk does that has a good version of flurry, full bab, and good hitdice.

Myrmex
2009-11-22, 04:48 PM
Basically, I think a great deal of the power of the PD monk actually comes from the conceptual clarity we gained by offering it as 10 levels. Effectively, level 11 is an incredibly crucial level, at which the game changes in a deep and very potent way. Hitting things stops being perfectly relevant at L11, in my opinion, and my extensive experience. You'd hit 11th, and look at your features list, then look up at me, and ask me where your class went, and I'd have to tell you that poor lil monk had to go, had to run off back to the farm to tend its sick mother. I'd shed a tear as I said it, knowing that monk was lying broken in the dirt, slammed into ash by Death By Thorns or some similar bit of wizardly madness.

Let me repeat that.

Hitting things begins to matter less and less as the game moves on, and this is something I hold to be incorruptible fact given the basis of 3.x. If you wanna talk pure homebrew, we can, but as long as we live in a game with full-casters that don't get gimped by brewing stuff up.....

And it all pales in comparison compared to a level 1 kobold paladin.
I don't really see the benefit of comparing tier 3 classes to tier 1 & tier 0 classes. They really shouldn't be playing in the same game.

Doc Roc
2009-11-22, 04:52 PM
And it all pales in comparison compared to a level 1 kobold paladin.
I don't really see the benefit of comparing tier 3 classes to tier 1 & tier 0 classes. They really shouldn't be playing in the same game.

That's not what I am getting at. Tier 5 against tier 2 is still awful. Or Tier 3.
Even Tier 3 against Tier 4 is moderately undesirable. They should be playing in the same game, but they verifiably are.

UserClone
2009-11-22, 05:38 PM
I just had another brainstorm...

What if you just gave Monks the benefits of the Vow of Poverty feat as class features, without requiring them to be poor?

It makes sense thematically, it gives them a nice bit of a boost, but it wouldn't be overpowering.

Right, but minus the Exalted feats, obviously.

Mongoose87
2009-11-22, 05:51 PM
Right, but minus the Exalted feats, obviously.

It's not as though Exalted feats are all that great.

Myrmex
2009-11-22, 05:53 PM
It's not as though Exalted feats are all that great.

If you wanted the exalted feats, you'd have to be Lawful Good.

UserClone
2009-11-22, 06:57 PM
That is sketchy, because then I, at least, would feel obligated to give LE monks the vile feats in place of them, and LN monks...something. See the issue? And besides, LG!=Exalted anyway, so it's just as easy to leave the bonus Exalted feats out.

deuxhero
2009-11-22, 09:23 PM
I actually think they're pretty terrible, but they are popular. At this point, though, you'd be talking about:

How well does a monk that has a good version of flurry, full bab, and good hitdice do when it happens to use Passive Way?


Combat Expertise with no int requirement and improved trip>>>>>> the normal feats (I think you even get a free skill focus out of it, helps meet even more qualifications).