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herrhauptmann
2009-11-22, 01:30 PM
I was wondering, are there any weapon enchantments that specifically target psions?
In the way that arcane casters and invocation users are hurt by the magebane (MIC) enchantment?
Or, if the magic/psionic transparency rule is used, would magebane actually have an effect against a psion?

Quirinus_Obsidian
2009-11-22, 01:45 PM
There is a Psibane enhancement (same as Magebane, only it's a +2 enhancement cost!!). I am sure there are some items that burn power points from them, but I cannot recall. A true Psion would never put himself into the position to have those things happen to them of course.

herrhauptmann
2009-11-22, 02:03 PM
No worries about a psion avoiding it.
I'm getting set to do a showdown with a friend. He's going to have a psionic blaster of some sort.
POwers I expect him to know: Become undead, go ethereal, teleport, wall of stone/ice/force or similar, LOTS of blasting.
My character will be the swiftblade/JPM I posted a few days ago.

His ability to burn powerpoints to negate damage will offset his D4 hitdice. But it means that dealing damage to him can help me win, once he's out of points he's helpless.
I'm also going to try and stay close to him. I should have a 15 or 16 BAB, and of course I'm a swiftblade. So I can easily chase him down if I've got Dimensional anchor on him. Being close should limit his ability to use his blasting powers. Lightning, fire, cold and sonic were all area effect. If I'm next to him, he'll get hit too. I don't remember if there's a force one or if he'd have a power with a single target. Plus being close to him will also let me get him with AOOs, and open up my ability to use devoted spirit maneuvers.

Isn't magebane (MIC) also a +2 enhancement?

Dusk Eclipse
2009-11-22, 02:34 PM
There is an enchancement called mindcrusher that deas Power point damage equal to half the damage dealt it is in XPH page 165 and possbily in the SRD it is a +2 enchancement

Moriato
2009-11-22, 02:34 PM
Being close should limit his ability to use his blasting powers. Lightning, fire, cold and sonic were all area effect. If I'm next to him, he'll get hit too.

Why would he? It's very easy to target even an area of effect spell so that it would hit you and not him, just need to have the are of effect end 5 feet from him. Plus there's powers like Energy Burst (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/energyBurst.htm) which hit everything around the manifester, but leave him untouched. I wouldn't expect this tactic to work for you at all.

Alleine
2009-11-22, 02:35 PM
His ability to burn powerpoints to negate damage will offset his D4 hitdice.

I take it this means he is playing an Elan psion?

herrhauptmann
2009-11-22, 09:46 PM
Good point Moriato. As you can tell, I'm still a novice with caster tactics.

Alleine, yes I'm expecting an Elan psion. I'm also expecting him to be able to make most any concentration check I can dish out

Foryn Gilnith
2009-11-22, 09:48 PM
Couldn't you just get Aberration bane in that case?

erikun
2009-11-22, 10:37 PM
Just from the SRD:

Dissipater (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/weapons.htm#dissipater), +1 bonus, not too handy but will get rid of astral constructs and wall of ecoplasm.

Mindcrusher (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/weapons.htm#mindcrusher), +2 bonus, drain PP or deals Wisdom damage, may not help if they have a ton of PP though

Psibane (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/weapons.htm#psibane), +2 bonus, extra damage. Stacks with Aberrationbane.

Supression (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/weapons.htm#suppression), +2 bonus, dispel psionics on each hit, probably better than dissipater

Mindarmor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/armorAndShields.htm#mindarmor), no bonus so it just adds to the cost of armor, gives a bonus to saves against mind control. Useful against telepaths.

Amulet of Catapsi (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#amuletofCatapsi), I'll just let you read what that does.

Several feats, such as Chaotic Mind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#chaoticMind), Closed Mind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#closedMind), Hostile Mind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#hostileMind), and Psionic Hole (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#psionicHole) can be useful if you are not a manifester. If you are a manifester, then the Slayer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/slayer.htm) prestige class has a couple of handy abilities against other psionic characters.

DJDizzy
2009-11-23, 03:30 AM
If you can grapple him and lock some Damping Psionic Restraints around him, he is toast

lord_khaine
2009-11-23, 03:47 AM
Though as i recall a grapple check is not enough to lock anyone in restraints, you have to knock him out, and in that case its hardly relevant.

If you want to survive the barrage of energy he is going to launch at you, then you will need either a decent resistance or evasion+high touch ac.

awa
2009-11-23, 12:51 PM
i would point out that an elan's ability is an immediate action and you only get one immediate or swift action around something like fighting with two weapons could force him to waste his ability.
Their was an anti magic dust in lords of madness.
if i recall correctly an anti magic field will basically shut down all his defenses and if you place the cloud right he will be affected but you will not. Unfortunately is only a small area of affect and it doesn't move so he will probably just move out of it. But at your level (witch must be high to have a 16 base attack bonus) the 3000 something price is not a big deal if you can get an ally to throw the dust for you.

Alleine
2009-11-23, 02:16 PM
i would point out that an elan's ability is an immediate action and you only get one immediate or swift action around something like fighting with two weapons could force him to waste his ability.

Bingo, reason I asked if it was an Elan.
All you need to do is make sure he uses the ability once in a round before you unleash the real hurt. Though he really shouldn't be able to absorb a full attack, it helps to be certain that he wont be able to.

herrhauptmann
2009-11-23, 03:22 PM
i would point out that an elan's ability is an immediate action and you only get one immediate or swift action around. Something like fighting with two weapons could force him to waste his ability.


So how would it work if he takes damage from more than 1 source in a round?
Here's the specific combo I'm thinking of:
My turn: Quickened(get quickened haste with no metamagic cost) 5th-7th level haste, absorbed into a timestop. Followed by delayed blastfireball

Round 1 of timestop: Quickened haste (swiftblade gets 2 moves and a standard, or 2standards and a move). Acid Fog,dimensional anchor
Round 2 of timestop: black tentacles, Glitterdust,
Round 3 of timestop: Cloudkill, solid fog
later rounds of timestop will include summoning or self-buffs.

Timestop ends:
-Black tentacles grapple him, I know he'll be able to make his concentration checks to manifest while grappled.
-Acid fog damages his equipment (especially the BoED amulet of retribution).
-Glitterdust blinds, and even if he makes his save, negates any invisibility.
-Con damage from cloudkill. He'll likely become undead to negate that. So that's one turn's worth of actions.
-Solid fog will prevent him from just running out of cloudkill/acid fog.
-Dimensional anchor will stop him from going ethereal, teleport, dim door.
-He takes damage from tentacles, fireball and acid fog. Since it's 3 sources of damage, would he only be able to negate damage from one source? or all 3?

edit: If I were playing this character in a game, I'd rather use his casting to boost my combat ability. But even with a psibane/ aberrationbane weapon with teh anti-undead crystal, I don't think I'll be able to beat him in a match of direct damage. SO, I'll use the wizard's "I win button"

Optimystik
2009-11-23, 04:09 PM
I take it this means he is playing an Elan psion?

I thought it meant he'd be using Vigor (a far more efficient way of negating damage.)

herrhauptmann
2009-11-23, 05:30 PM
What does vigor do?

Optimystik
2009-11-23, 05:41 PM
What does vigor do?

See for yourself. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/Vigor.htm)

herrhauptmann
2009-11-24, 12:07 AM
So if a psion uses 2 powerpoints on Vigor, he can get 10 temp hit points? But that also eats up his action for the turn right?

awa
2009-11-24, 12:59 AM
yes its a standard action. Also in regards to your earlier question he would have to reduce each damage source separately becuase hes doing it during the attack (and unless he has a way to get extra immediate actions he can't)

herrhauptmann
2009-11-24, 01:14 AM
So unless his goal is to keep using vigor until I run out of spells (possible, since i can only do that timestop combo so many times), he's probably going to rely on dealing damage to me.

What else can I do during a timestop to hurt/stop him?
Delayedblast, cloudkill, acidfog, glitterdust, summon monster, dispel magic (if using transparency), baleful polymorph.
I'm expecting to be level 17. (wiz 5, crusader 1, swift10, JPM1. Total caster level of 11... That combo I mentioned above, I don't think I can cast all those spells)

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-24, 03:50 AM
Note: Anything you can do, a well-built Psion can interrupt.

Anticipatory strike is like celerity on crack.

Cast Time Stop? AnSt, and hit you with enough damage to fizzle the spell... AND do a dispel (via schism) or Synchronicity (via schism) to mitigate what you have done, or may do next action.

So be very careful. A psion's ability to Nova should not be underestimated.

lord_khaine
2009-11-24, 03:57 AM
Timestop ends:
-Black tentacles grapple him, I know he'll be able to make his concentration checks to manifest while grappled.
-Acid fog damages his equipment (especially the BoED amulet of retribution).
-Glitterdust blinds, and even if he makes his save, negates any invisibility.
-Con damage from cloudkill. He'll likely become undead to negate that. So that's one turn's worth of actions.
-Solid fog will prevent him from just running out of cloudkill/acid fog.
-Dimensional anchor will stop him from going ethereal, teleport, dim door.
-He takes damage from tentacles, fireball and acid fog. Since it's 3 sources of damage, would he only be able to negate damage from one source? or all 3?


Acid fog should only damage his equipment if he rolls a 1 on his safe, he is able to activate energi resistance as a emidiate action, and he can proberly dispel whatever you cast with a swift action since he did not lose caster levels.

Eloel
2009-11-24, 04:24 AM
A psion's ability to Nova should not be underestimated.
This. There's also a chance that he'll go Factotum 7/Psion 10, and will boost ML through Practiced Manifester & stuff. When you eat 100+ PP of damage in 1 round, between Schism, Anticipatory Strike and Inspiration Points, you don't really have much hope.

(A psion17 can also just manifest Schism, and go Nova without factotum. With overchannel (for +3 ML), he can (on cost of some HP negated by Vigor) use 20+14+20+14 PP of damage at round 1 (w/ AntSt). With the most direct way, Energy Missile, that is 68d6+68 damage, +68 for 1 feat. You're not surviving that unless you're build to do that, and then 2 rounds later, he can do the same thing again.)

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-24, 05:51 AM
This. There's also a chance that he'll go Factotum 7/Psion 10, and will boost ML through Practiced Manifester & stuff. When you eat 100+ PP of damage in 1 round, between Schism, Anticipatory Strike and Inspiration Points, you don't really have much hope.

(A psion17 can also just manifest Schism, and go Nova without factotum. With overchannel (for +3 ML), he can (on cost of some HP negated by Vigor) use 20+14+20+14 PP of damage at round 1 (w/ AntSt). With the most direct way, Energy Missile, that is 68d6+68 damage, +68 for 1 feat. You're not surviving that unless you're build to do that, and then 2 rounds later, he can do the same thing again.)

That's nothing. Between Anticipatory Strike, Temporal Acceleration, Schism, and Synchronicity, you can dump your entire PP pool in one round.

Main mind: Blast for 17pp
Schism: Blast for 15 pp (practiced manifester)

anticipatory strike
Main Mind: Blast for 17 pp
Schism: Temporal Acceleration for 2 rounds.

TA Round 1: pay for Anticipatory Strike.
TA Round 2: Synchronicity for 3 PP.

TA Ends. Synchronicity Activate, Blast for 17pp.

Anticipatory Strike.
Main mind: Blast for 17pp.
Schism: Temporal Acceleration for 2 rounds.

Repeat until PP are gone.

Assume that every point was dumped into a Swarm of Crystals? Hundreds of D4's of slashing damage.

Energy Stun? Burn until you're stunned. Then repeat next round.

Energy Ray? Hundreds of D6 + hundreds.

You get the point.

Eloel
2009-11-24, 07:17 AM
The main 'ouch' factor is that, even if you have infinite HP/some way to ignore HP damage, using Ego Whip is a simple and very effective solution.
5d4 Cha damage. 4d4 more from Schism. 5d4 more from Anticipatory. 4d4 more from Schism (I'm not going into Temporal Accelaration, that's too 'high level' for me) Still, 18d4 Cha damage (44 average. 22 if you make all saves [unlikely]) paralyzes most everything.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-24, 07:47 AM
Then there's the Various SoD/SoL effects, both fort and will. And it can all be spammed until PP run out or you drop.

herrhauptmann
2009-11-24, 02:45 PM
Acid fog should only damage his equipment if he rolls a 1 on his safe, he is able to activate energi resistance as a emidiate action, and he can proberly dispel whatever you cast with a swift action since he did not lose caster levels.

I was going off of "deals damage to each creature and object within" to mean damage to equipment.
I don't think we're going to use psionic/arcane transparency, so he shouldn't be able to use a psionic dispel on me, nor can I use dispel magic on him (maybe some of his equipment...)
To everyone else, if wizard is regularly touted as the battle winner of a party, how come you all keep telling me I've lost before I've started?

Milskidasith
2009-11-24, 03:01 PM
Practiced Manifester does not work with schism. Schism is still awesome, but I'm sick of people thinking it works that way. It doesn't.

Optimystik
2009-11-24, 03:11 PM
So if a psion uses 2 powerpoints on Vigor, he can get 10 temp hit points? But that also eats up his action for the turn right?

If he's level 2, yes. If he's more, he can basically gain 5HP for every PP he spends up to his level limit (so an Elan Psion 17 can gain 85 bonus HP; far more than the 34 damage he can prevent using his special ability.) It will all cost him one standard action.

Dusk Eclipse
2009-11-24, 03:23 PM
Because you are not a pure wizard, you are a gish, which exels as glass cannon (IME) you can deal an enormous amount of damage but you can't take too much damage. Sadly psions are also exelent glass cannons. so I think your best bet is gain initiative and slap the most effective way to shut him down, If he can negate damage some kind of stat damage/penalty (Feeblemind for example) are the way to go

My two coppers

Milskidasith
2009-11-24, 03:32 PM
Because you are not a pure wizard, you are a gish, which exels as glass cannon (IME) you can deal an enormous amount of damage but you can't take too much damage. Sadly psions are also exelent glass cannons. so I think your best bet is gain initiative and slap the most effective way to shut him down, If he can negate damage some kind of stat damage/penalty (Feeblemind for example) are the way to go

My two coppers

Those must be fake coppers, then. Gishes are more durable than regular wizards, not less (well, in theory). In practice, a straight wizard is both more durable and more powerful than a gish.

Dusk Eclipse
2009-11-24, 03:46 PM
I didn't say they were less durable than wizards, just that at least the gishes I have played/seen, are squisher than other damage dealers

Milskidasith
2009-11-24, 03:48 PM
I didn't say they were less durable than wizards, just that at least the gishes I have played/seen, are squisher than other damage dealers

Obviously, but that's not saying anything new. "Hey look, the guy with D4 HD has less HP than the guy with D12 HD" is... well, it's obvious. I thought you were referring to being a glass cannon relative to wizards, because that would be the only way your post wasn't so obvious (or at least, obvious in theory) that it wouldn't require a post.

Also, gishes are more durable than regular melee. Again, spells >>> HP.

Dusk Eclipse
2009-11-24, 03:52 PM
Also, gishes are more durable than regular melee. Again, spells >>> HP.

Quite true.

erikun
2009-11-24, 04:58 PM
So, wait. You're going to be an 11th level wizard fighting a 17th level psion? Best of luck, as I don't think you'll be able to save-or-die him reliably, even while throwing out twice as many spells. Well, let's see what you can do.

5th level spells:

Cloudkill, as mentioned, forces a fortitude save for CON damage. Handy if you're either going for damage, but with nothing else in your spellbook reducing CON, I doubt it will drop him. Dominate Person, Hold Monster, and Feeblemind are all basically SoD, but it's targeting his good save and he is several levels higher than your caster level. Might work as a hail-mary, but I wouldn't rely on them. Mind Fog can help in the will save department, though, if you can keep him in one location.

Interposing Hand grants cover, both for AC against rays and for a bonus to Reflex. Wall of Force will block everything, but that works both ways. Persistent Image works as well as the rest of the illusions - that is, blocks line of sight at a distance, won't fool him up close. Baleful Polymorph looks like your best 5th level spell, as it targets Fortitude and is a full SoD. (no class features = no psionic powers, but beware the abilities of the psicrystal)

4th level:

Dimensional Anchor will keep him from teleporting away. Black Tentacles will keep him in place, as will Solid Fog (although you don't have Line of Sight to him inside the fog either). Dimensional Door is your best get-out-of-bad-spot-for-free card right now. Confusion is like Hold Monster as targeting Will, except it's only a save-or-suck. Greater Invisibility will force him to use something to see you again, and Illusionary Wall is like the rest of the illusions.

Bestow Curse has the same problems as Confusion, but with -6 to his casting stat and 50% chance to do nothing vs. 80% change to do nothing meaningful with Confusion. I doubt you will be able to Enervation him to a low enough level, but you can try. Polymorph is for yourself; turn into something that's good at evading attacks.

Shadow Conjuration = any conjuration spell from below you want

3rd level:

Sleet Storm may keep him there for a round or two, Major Image for illusion. Blink can reduce the damage you're taking by 50%, assuming the Psion is going for damage and not straight SoD. Fly for movement, Haste as you've already said, good luck trying to get Slow to land.

2nd level:

Same stuff as higher levels, only less powerful. Fog Cloud blocks LoS, Web keeps him sticking around. Glitterdust and See Invisiblity will negate his invisibility, if he has any. I suppose you could Touch of Idiocy for a 1d6 penality to his casting stat, which will take a few PP off his total. Scorching Ray does good damage with only a ranged touch attack, so is an option if you're trying for damage.

Blur for yourself, Invisibility if you're just throwing out conjurations, Minor Image for the illusions.

1st level:

Er... Shield for AC, Protection from X to resists mental domination, Magic Missile for damage, Reduce Person for the Dex bonus... I suppose True Strike if you really need to hit with an attack.

Heh, good luck.

herrhauptmann
2009-11-24, 05:41 PM
So, wait. You're going to be an 11th level wizard fighting a 17th level psion? Best of luck, as I don't think you'll be able to save-or-die him reliably, even while throwing out twice as many spells. Well, let's see what you can do.

5th level spells:

Cloudkill, as mentioned, forces a fortitude save for CON damage. Handy if you're either going for damage, but with nothing else in your spellbook reducing CON, I doubt it will drop him. Dominate Person, Hold Monster, and Feeblemind are all basically SoD, but it's targeting his good save and he is several levels higher than your caster level. Might work as a hail-mary, but I wouldn't rely on them. Mind Fog can help in the will save department, though, if you can keep him in one location.

Interposing Hand grants cover, both for AC against rays and for a bonus to Reflex. Wall of Force will block everything, but that works both ways. Persistent Image works as well as the rest of the illusions - that is, blocks line of sight at a distance, won't fool him up close. Baleful Polymorph looks like your best 5th level spell, as it targets Fortitude and is a full SoD. (no class features = no psionic powers, but beware the abilities of the psicrystal)

4th level:

Dimensional Anchor will keep him from teleporting away. Black Tentacles will keep him in place, as will Solid Fog (although you don't have Line of Sight to him inside the fog either). Dimensional Door is your best get-out-of-bad-spot-for-free card right now. Confusion is like Hold Monster as targeting Will, except it's only a save-or-suck. Greater Invisibility will force him to use something to see you again, and Illusionary Wall is like the rest of the illusions.

Bestow Curse has the same problems as Confusion, but with -6 to his casting stat and 50% chance to do nothing vs. 80% change to do nothing meaningful with Confusion. I doubt you will be able to Enervation him to a low enough level, but you can try. Polymorph is for yourself; turn into something that's good at evading attacks.

Shadow Conjuration = any conjuration spell from below you want

3rd level:

Sleet Storm may keep him there for a round or two, Major Image for illusion. Blink can reduce the damage you're taking by 50%, assuming the Psion is going for damage and not straight SoD. Fly for movement, Haste as you've already said, good luck trying to get Slow to land.

2nd level:

Same stuff as higher levels, only less powerful. Fog Cloud blocks LoS, Web keeps him sticking around. Glitterdust and See Invisiblity will negate his invisibility, if he has any. I suppose you could Touch of Idiocy for a 1d6 penality to his casting stat, which will take a few PP off his total. Scorching Ray does good damage with only a ranged touch attack, so is an option if you're trying for damage.

Blur for yourself, Invisibility if you're just throwing out conjurations, Minor Image for the illusions.

1st level:

Er... Shield for AC, Protection from X to resists mental domination, Magic Missile for damage, Reduce Person for the Dex bonus... I suppose True Strike if you really need to hit with an attack.

Heh, good luck.
I'll have practiced spellcaster, so that'll give me a +4 CL. So the spells of an 11th level wizard, but the CL of a 15th.
I'm relatively sure he'll be going straight psion (When he first used this char a year ago at 15th level, it was straight psion, no PrC or level dips), and is what, intelligence for manifesting? So his base saves should be 10/5/5. If he prestiges out, it'll probably be along the lines of 14/3/3 depending on what/when he prestiges.

Can I use baleful polymorph on him while timestopped? It technically doesn't do any hitpoint damage

tyckspoon
2009-11-24, 06:22 PM
Can I use baleful polymorph on him while timestopped? It technically doesn't do any hitpoint damage

No. HP damage is not a relevant restriction- you can't do anything that targets or affects somebody outside the timestop, not even with beneficial effects (you can use things that won't actually take effect until after the duration of the Time Stop, tho, such as Delayed Blast Fireball.)

Alleine
2009-11-24, 07:01 PM
If he's level 2, yes. If he's more, he can basically gain 5HP for every PP he spends up to his level limit (so an Elan Psion 17 can gain 85 bonus HP; far more than the 34 damage he can prevent using his special ability.) It will all cost him one standard action.

If he's big into negating damage(and personally I don't see vigor as 'negating' because you still technically take the damage) then he might have the enhancing feat that allows him to exchange 4 dmg for 1 pp. Not to mention I've heard people say that the Elan ability doesn't qualify for the ML cap because it isn't a power.

erikun
2009-11-24, 07:33 PM
I'll have practiced spellcaster, so that'll give me a +4 CL. So the spells of an 11th level wizard, but the CL of a 15th.
Caster level only affects round/level durations and caster level checks, such as with dispel magic and spell penetration. The DCs of your spells will be solely determined by the spell level + your INT modifier. That should be around DC 25 (10 + 5th level + INT 30) for your best spells. It only goes down for lower level spells.

The Psion will probably have a will save around +20 (+10 Psion + 5 cloak + 20 WIS).


Can I use baleful polymorph on him while timestopped? It technically doesn't do any hitpoint damage
As mentioned before, you can't do anything that affects a target while timestopped. You're better off going invisible, summoning, affecting an area (black tentacles, solid fog), or throwing up an illusion so he wastes time tring to find you. Assuming he doesn't just have True Seeing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/trueSeeingPsionic.htm) active, though.

Remember that Dimensional Anchor is targeted, and can't be used when Time Stopped.

Not that it matters, as you would need to be a Wizard 17 in order to cast Time Stop. And no, Practiced Spellcaster will not allow you to cast the spell at Wizard 13.

herrhauptmann
2009-11-24, 10:39 PM
Not that it matters, as you would need to be a Wizard 17 in order to cast Time Stop. And no, Practiced Spellcaster will not allow you to cast the spell at Wizard 13.
Swiftblade prestige class is able to cast haste, and turn it into a timestop so long as a 5th level slot or higher is used. It's the capstone ability, and one of the reasons why the PrC only gets +6 CL over 10 levels.
Others include casting haste as a quickened spell, without using a higher slot, haste counting as an extraordinary ability on myself AFTER I've cast it. Getting 2 standards and a move action while using my own haste, or getting 1 standard and 2 moves.
My extrapolation of that: If a character gets a standard and a move, OR a full round+5 ft step, then while hasted I should get a full round and a move.

Optimystik
2009-11-24, 10:51 PM
(and personally I don't see vigor as 'negating' because you still technically take the damage)

If you survive something that would have otherwise killed you either way, is there a difference that matters?

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-25, 12:24 AM
Practiced Manifester does not work with schism. Schism is still awesome, but I'm sick of people thinking it works that way. It doesn't.

Yes, it does. If you'd care to disagree, please state why.

A player generally chooses the order in which to apply effects on himself.

This means that you can apply the effects thusly:

Base 17.
-6 (schism)
+4 (Prac Manifester) <Max 17>

Alternately, applying it in a different way:
17 (base) + 4 (PM) = 21, Max 17 = 17
17 (base) +4 (PM) -6 (schism) = 15, Max 17 = 15

You're trying to apply:
17 (base) +4 (PM) = 21, Max 17 = 17 -6 (schism) = 11.

It's a valid interpretation, but it's not the be all, end all, only explanation.

Alleine
2009-11-25, 12:36 AM
If you survive something that would have otherwise killed you either way, is there a difference that matters?

No, but I'm a nit-picker so it bugged me.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-25, 12:59 AM
If you survive something that would have otherwise killed you either way, is there a difference that matters?

Because negating damage means no death from massive damage save.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-25, 01:00 AM
Also, injury-based poison and disease.

Optimystik
2009-11-25, 01:12 AM
No, but I'm a nit-picker so it bugged me.

That, at least, is a trait we all share here. :smalltongue:

@ Lycan and Phoenix: any level 17 Psion who is susceptible to those things in a fight he is prepared for is clearly doing it wrong and deserves such an ignominious death.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-25, 01:15 AM
@ Lycan and Phoenix: any level 17 Psion who is susceptible to those things in a fight he is prepared for is clearly doing it wrong and deserves such an ignominious death.Just pointing out minutia of the situation.

Also, energy/Con-draining attacks.

Milskidasith
2009-11-25, 01:20 AM
Yes, it does. If you'd care to disagree, please state why.

A player generally chooses the order in which to apply effects on himself.

This means that you can apply the effects thusly:

Base 17.
-6 (schism)
+4 (Prac Manifester) <Max 17>

Alternately, applying it in a different way:
17 (base) + 4 (PM) = 21, Max 17 = 17
17 (base) +4 (PM) -6 (schism) = 15, Max 17 = 15

You're trying to apply:
17 (base) +4 (PM) = 21, Max 17 = 17 -6 (schism) = 11.

It's a valid interpretation, but it's not the be all, end all, only explanation.

Actually, it's 17 (base) +0 (PM; your HD is only 17, so it's still only 17) = Max 17 -6 (schism) = 11.

You can't say you have a ML of 21 but can only use it up to 17. The feat improves your ML by +4, up to your HD. It doesn't improve it over your HD but not let you use it. That just doesn't make sense.

Plus, your schismed mind has no HD at all, so by your own logic, it would be upped by PM... to 0 ML.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-25, 01:21 AM
What really gets fun is if you have Practiced Manifester, then engage in Overchanneling shenanigans. Level 20? You can have a level 21 schism. :smalltongue:

Milskidasith
2009-11-25, 01:24 AM
What really gets fun is if you have Practiced Manifester, then engage in Overchanneling shenanigans. Level 20? You can have a level 21 schism. :smalltongue:

No, no, you can't. Practiced Manifester does not work on Schism.

Schism explicitly states it's ML is six below yours. Specific trumps general. Plus, your ML is 17 normally, not 21, so schism manifests at 11.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-25, 01:46 AM
Actually, it's 17 (base) +0 (PM; your HD is only 17, so it's still only 17) = Max 17 -6 (schism) = 11.
Incorrect.

The feat improves ML by 4, and imposes a maximum that the improvement can go to.

It's 17 + 4 (to a max of 17) = 17.
Schism is your manifester level -6.
It can be interpreted to apply to the final result, which would be 17-6=11, as you suggest is the be-all, end-all, only possible way a sane person can read it...

There is also, however, a precedent, for applying the effects together.
17+4-6 (to a max of 17) = 15.

It's not the only valid interpretation, but it IS a valid one. In order to disprove that, you'll need RAW on how that method is wrong. Incontrivertible RAW that states that the bonuses and penalties cannot be applied that way.

Otherwise, it's a matter of DM interpretation, and can be taken either way.


You can't say you have a ML of 21 but can only use it up to 17. The feat improves your ML by +4, up to your HD. It doesn't improve it over your HD but not let you use it. That just doesn't make sense.Sigh. I really hate when people try to argue what "makes sense" in RAW.

RAW? You can drown to heal.
RAW? The only reason dead people can't fight is that the damage they've sustained is greater than their current HP.
RAW? Arrows fly in a perfectly straight line when fired, rather than a parabolic arc.

After all, it doesn't make sense to have +6 to saves from Superior Resistance, and a +5 from a Cloak of Resistance. Yes, you have a +6 bonus, and a +5 bonus, but only the +6 applies. If it's dispelled, however, the +5 will take effect. Because by RAW, 6+5 can equal 6, for low values of 5. And it doesn't make sense. But it is what it is.



Plus, your schismed mind has no HD at all, so by your own logic, it would be upped by PM... to 0 ML.
It's not getting the PM bonus. You are. It transfers by virtue of the spell's wording.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-25, 01:50 AM
No, no, you can't. Practiced Manifester does not work on Schism.

Schism explicitly states it's ML is six below yours. Specific trumps general. Plus, your ML is 17 normally, not 21, so schism manifests at 11.

Rules explicitly state that you apply effects to yourself in the most advantageous order possible, unless the rules explicitly prohibit this (see: Empower and Maximize).

So, unless the Schism spell explicitly states that it's effect is applied last, then it doesn't have to be.

A lot of very, very experienced players disagree with you, Milskidasith. It would not make sense that it is as cut and dry as you say it is, when that's the case.

Milskidasith
2009-11-25, 01:57 AM
Rules explicitly state that you apply effects to yourself in the most advantageous order possible, unless the rules explicitly prohibit this (see: Empower and Maximize).

The rules also explicitly state that specific trumps general. Schism specifically says it is your manifester level -6. You can manifest at level 17. You manifest at level 17. Note that it does not give you a -6 penalty to ML, but that you manifest at your ML -6. If it were the first one, I would agree that practiced manifester works. But it doesn't.


So, unless the Schism spell explicitly states that it's effect is applied last, then it doesn't have to be.


It explicitly states that it manifests "as if your manifester level were six lower than it is." Your ML is 17; practiced manifester does not change that, so it does not work.


A lot of very, very experienced players disagree with you, Milskidasith. It would not make sense that it is as cut and dry as you say it is, when that's the case.

If you have to use fallacies to support your argument, you don't have one.

Let's just look at the specific wording.

You manifest powers, "but only as if your manifester level were six lower than it is."

What is your manifester level, after PM? It's 17. What is six lower than 17? 11. By your own words


It's not getting the PM bonus. You are. It transfers by virtue of the spell's wording.

it can't be applying PM to the 11, and PM doesn't apply to the 17, so it doesn't apply at all.

Gorilla2038
2009-11-25, 01:59 AM
If you can get an item to fly thats slightly homebrew, get a permanent anti-psionics fields around you as a ring or such.

Spell level 6x Caster level 11x 2000(equation is SRD for item building for permanent items) costs 132,000 total. A lot, but only about 1/3 your wealth by and if your not using the transparency rule, then hes S.O.L. You'd be in full gear and weopens, able to cast, with him not being able to do anything to you but possibly melee or use whatever bow hes got tucked away.

Milskidasith
2009-11-25, 02:00 AM
If you can get an item to fly thats slightly homebrew, get a permanent anti-psionics fields around you as a ring or such.

Spell level 6x Caster level 11x 2000(equation is SRD for item building for permanent items) costs 132,000 total. A lot, but only about 1/3 your wealth by and if your not using the transparency rule, then hes S.O.L. You'd be in full gear and weopens, able to cast, with him not being able to do anything to you but possibly melee or use whatever bow hes got tucked away.

This only works if they don't use Psionic Magic transparency. If they don't, then there's no way the Psion wouldn't have a permanent AMF, because that's a huge benefit to him.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-25, 02:02 AM
The rules also explicitly state that specific trumps general. Schism specifically says it is your manifester level -6. You can manifest at level 17. You manifest at level 17. Note that it does not give you a -6 penalty to ML, but that you manifest at your ML -6. If it were the first one, I would agree that practiced manifester works. But it doesn't.Specific trumps general?

That has as much application here as a quote from the bull rush section.


It explicitly states that it manifests "as if your manifester level were six lower than it is." Your ML is 17; practiced manifester does not change that, so it does not work.Practiced Manifester's final result on your ML results in no change. That doesn't mean it does nothing. When you're at full life, and receive a cure light wounds for 6hp, you were healed for 6hp. Even if it didn't actually increase your HP, anything that triggers off a cure, will do so.

That's the way the game works. Not changing anything isn't always "doing nothing". It makes no sense, but it's the way it is.


If you have to use fallacies to support your argument, you don't have one.
If you need to misquote rules to create rulings that support your argument, then your argument is still unsupported.



it can't be applying PM to the 11, and PM doesn't apply to the 17, so it doesn't apply at all.
It can't? Cite rules showing that it can't. Show rules showing that it doesn't apply to the 17 (and don't use 'it doesn't increase' as an argument. Not increasing and not affecting are two different things, RAW).

You'll find that the rules you're looking for come straight from the Chapter of First Opinions, in the book of Houserule.

Milskidasith
2009-11-25, 02:06 AM
Practiced Manifester's final result on your ML results in no change. That doesn't mean it does nothing. When you're at full life, and receive a cure light wounds for 6hp, you were healed for 6hp. Even if it didn't actually increase your HP, anything that triggers off a cure, will do so.

That's a false analogy. Schism triggers off your manifester level. By your own wording, PM doesn't change your manifester level, so it doesn't affect Schism that route. By your own words, PM isn't directly applying to schism, so it doesn't add that way. When does PM get added in, then?


That's the way the game works. Not changing anything isn't always "doing nothing". It makes no sense, but it's the way it is.


But it doesn't change the only thing Schism relies on, I.E. Manifester Level. Your manifester level is 17. Schism is 6 lower than that (not -6 to your ML.)

Yes, PM still is in effect on you. But it's not doing anything to. To use your own analogy, you are saying that if you cast a CLW for 4 on yourself when you are at full HP, and then got hit for 6, you only take 2 damage because you had a CLW affect you.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-25, 02:09 AM
The rules also explicitly state that specific trumps general.And Practiced Manifester specifically states that it boosts your manifester level by 4 up to your HD.

There's no text anywhere stating that it doesn't affect schism the same way that it affects you. In fact, the only text anywhere that differentiates between your mind and your schism are the facts that, A.) its manifester level is different than yours (normally 6 lower than yours), B.) it can only take mental actions, and C.) it's unaffected by time-altering powers. None of which affect Practiced Manifester's effects on the schism'd mind.

As was stated, yours is a valid way to read the text.

But so is ours.

Also, my earlier statement regarding a schism with a manifester level of 21? That's if you're level 20, have Practiced Manifester, and Overchannel schism. How does that result in you having a manifester level of 17 at level 20?

Milskidasith
2009-11-25, 02:12 AM
And Practiced Manifester specifically states that it boosts your manifester level by 4 up to your HD.

There's no text anywhere stating that it doesn't affect schism the same way that it affects you. In fact, the only text anywhere that differentiates between your mind and your schism are the facts that, A.) its manifester level is different than yours (normally 6 lower than yours), B.) it can only take mental actions, and C.) it's unaffected by time-altering powers. None of which affect Practiced Manifester's effects on the schism'd mind..

Schism is explicitly stated to manifest at 6 levels below yours. So sure, it's ML is 15, just like your ML is 21 with practiced manifester... but your level is limited to 17, so it's level is limited to 11. Unless you can manifest at 21, it can't manifest at 15.

Schism explicitly states not that it applies a -6 penalty, which would allow PM to work, but that it manifests at six levels below your manifester level. Your manifester level is 17, and PM does not change that, so it manifests at 11. If PM applied and let it's ML be up to 15, it can still only manifest up to level 11 because it's still limited to 6 below your ML.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-25, 02:15 AM
Schism is explicitly stated to manifest at 6 levels below yours.And Practiced Manifester says it raises one's manifester level by 4, up to your total HD. Since the only HD total available is the body's, then your schism has to share it. Affected by Practiced Manifester, its effective and actual ML is now -2. Overchannel can boost this farther.


So sure, it's ML is 15, just like your ML is 21 with practiced manifester... but your level is limited to 17, so it's level is limited to 11. Unless you can manifest at 21, it can't manifest at 15.Unless affected by Practiced Manifester, which overrides the normal rules.

By your logic, Combat Reflexes doesn't give extra attacks of opportunity because the primary rules state you only get one per round.

Milskidasith
2009-11-25, 02:19 AM
And Practiced Manifester says it raises one's manifester level by 4, up to your total HD. Since the only HD total available is the body's, then your schism has to share it. Affected by Practiced Manifester, its effective and actual ML is now -2. Overchannel can boost this farther.

Unless affected by Practiced Manifester, which overrides the normal rules.

By your logic, Combat Reflexes doesn't give extra attacks of opportunity because the primary rules state you only get one per round.

Your schism has no stated manifester level. It could have AN manifester level, for all it matters to the argument. Actually, since it never states it, your Schism has your ML. However, it can only manifest up to six below your ML, which is 11. It's manifester level is never specified, only that it can only manifest up to six below yours, which is only 17.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-25, 02:20 AM
Schism is explicitly stated to manifest at 6 levels below yours. So sure, it's ML is 15, just like your ML is 21 with practiced manifester... but your level is limited to 17, so it's level is limited to 11. Unless you can manifest at 21, it can't manifest at 15.

Schism explicitly states not that it applies a -6 penalty, which would allow PM to work, but that it manifests at six levels below your manifester level. Your manifester level is 17, and PM does not change that, so it manifests at 11. If PM applied and let it's ML be up to 15, it can still only manifest up to level 11 because it's still limited to 6 below your ML.

Penalty and flat reduction is a semantic difference with no bearing on the discussion at all. Stop splitting hairs over things that don't have relevance or bearing.

Schism Manifests powers as you do, except with a ML 6 levels lower.

So, you manifest as if you had 17 HD. So does it.

So, your ML is: 17 + 4 (to a max of 17).
It uses your ML -6.
It uses (17+4) -6 (to a max of 17).

This leaves me with one question. It can be answered with a simple number.

What is 17 + 4 - 6 equal to?

Milskidasith
2009-11-25, 02:22 AM
Penalty and flat reduction is a semantic difference with no bearing on the discussion at all. Stop splitting hairs over things that don't have relevance or bearing.


It's not a reduction or a penalty. That's the thing. It's a limit, much like Practiced Manifester has a limit based on your HD. The limit of Schism is that it can manifest at six below your ML. So here's the simple question: What's 17-6?

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-25, 02:25 AM
It's not a reduction or a penalty. That's the thing. It's a limit, much like Practiced Manifester has a limit based on your HD. The limit of Schism is that it can manifest at six below your ML. So here's the simple question: What's 17-6?That limit is similar to being a psion 11/fighter 6. Unless mitigating circumstances apply, that character has a manifester level of 11. Just like schism.

Now, what would Practiced Manifester do in this situation?

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-25, 02:27 AM
It's not a reduction or a penalty. That's the thing. It's a limit, much like Practiced Manifester has a limit based on your HD. The limit of Schism is that it can manifest at six below your ML. So here's the simple question: What's 17-6?

17-6? Irrelevant to the discussion. I've already accepted that your view is ONE valid interpretation. What I fail to see is that it's the only valid interpretation.

You've yet to provide a shred of RAW support showing that bonuses, penalties, and the like cannot be applied in the way I've suggested. All you can fall back on is "doesn't make sense".

"Doesn't make sense" isn't an invalidation of RAW. RAW must be refuted by RAW. Anything less, in a RAW debate?

That's what doesn't make sense.

And it's not a limit. It is a defined value, reduced from another defined value by a set number. Look up the definition of a "penalty".

Milskidasith
2009-11-25, 02:29 AM
That limit is similar to being a psion 11/fighter 6. Unless mitigating circumstances apply, that character has a manifester level of 11. Just like schism.

Now, what would Practiced Manifester do in this situation?

False analogy.

To Phoenix: I have not said that it is a false analogy. The limit on Schism is your ML -6. Practiced Manifester does not change that, because there is no penalty on your or your schisms ML to increase.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-25, 02:32 AM
False analogy.

To Phoenix: I have not said that it is a false analogy. The limit on Schism is your ML -6. Practiced Manifester does not change that, because there is no penalty on your or your schisms ML to increase.

Penalties do not need wording stating that they are penalties to be such. The definition of a bonus and a penalty is laid out in the SRD. If it meets those criteria (which it does), then it's a penalty. Not a limit.

Regardless of how much you argue, this is true.

Milskidasith
2009-11-25, 02:35 AM
Penalties do not need wording stating that they are penalties to be such. The definition of a bonus and a penalty is laid out in the SRD. If it meets those criteria (which it does), then it's a penalty. Not a limit.

Regardless of how much you argue, this is true.

A penalty is a change to a die roll, so no, it does not meet the SRD definition of a penalty.


A modifier is any bonus or penalty applying to a die roll. A positive modifier is a bonus, and a negative modifier is a penalty.

So no, it isn't a penalty.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-25, 02:38 AM
A penalty is a change to a die roll, so no, it does not meet the SRD definition of a penalty.



So no, it isn't a penalty.

ML does apply to many die rolls, in the same way that Strength does.

Increases to Strength are bonuses.

Care to rethink your position? Or is your mind too closed to see that you're arguing that a belt of giant strength's increase to Str isn't a bonus, because it doesn't directly add to a die roll right there?

Milskidasith
2009-11-25, 02:40 AM
ML does apply to many die rolls, in the same way that Strength does.

Increases to Strength are bonuses.

Care to rethink your position? Or is your mind too closed to see that you're arguing that a belt of giant strength's increase to Str isn't a bonus, because it doesn't directly add to a die roll right there?

It's hypocritical how you use "it makes sense" as your argument after (falsely) claiming that was my only argument.

The rules are badly defined. So what? That's your argument for why PM works, isn't it?

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-25, 02:47 AM
It's hypocritical how you use "it makes sense" as your argument after (falsely) claiming that was my only argument.

The rules are badly defined. So what? That's your argument for why PM works, isn't it?

The rules are open to interpretation, actually, which is what I've said in most posts now.

Precedent is set by RAW that indirect ability to add to die rolls qualifies. Off the top of my head, Dispel Psionics forces a die roll which receives a bonus based on ML, as does any spell/psionics penetration check. This functions in exactly the same mechanical manner as other stats qualified as bonuses. Whether it makes sense or not is not what I'm arguing.

I'm arguing precedent is set for this mechanic by other similar mechanics. That is not a common sense argument, so please don't invent a view that is different from the one I've actually presented, in order to call me a hypocrite. It's just not nice.

Milskidasith
2009-11-25, 02:48 AM
The rules are open to interpretation, actually, which is what I've said in most posts now.

Precedent is set by RAW that indirect ability to add to die rolls qualifies. Off the top of my head, Dispel Psionics forces a die roll which receives a bonus based on ML, as does any spell/psionics penetration check. This functions in exactly the same mechanical manner as other stats qualified as bonuses. Whether it makes sense or not is not what I'm arguing.

I'm arguing precedent is set for this mechanic by other similar mechanics. That is not a common sense argument, so please don't invent a view that is different from the one I've actually presented, in order to call me a hypocrite. It's just not nice.

But it is not a bonus as defined by the SRD, which is the point. The rules are contradictory and stupid. Claiming that it only works your way when the rules are possibly contradictory and stupid is exactly what you are saying I am doing, while you are doing the same thing. That is hypocrisy.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-25, 03:04 AM
But it is not a bonus as defined by the SRD, which is the point. The rules are contradictory and stupid. Claiming that it only works your way when the rules are possibly contradictory and stupid is exactly what you are saying I am doing, while you are doing the same thing. That is hypocrisy.

I'm claiming that it only works my way?


You're trying to apply:
17 (base) +4 (PM) = 21, Max 17 = 17 -6 (schism) = 11.

It's a valid interpretation, but it's not the be all, end all, only explanation.


It can be interpreted to apply to the final result, which would be 17-6=11, as you suggest is the be-all, end-all, only possible way a sane person can read it...

There is also, however, a precedent, for applying the effects together.
17+4-6 (to a max of 17) = 15.


17-6? Irrelevant to the discussion. I've already accepted that your view is ONE valid interpretation. What I fail to see is that it's the only valid interpretation.

Odd. It looks like I'm accepting your view as a valid interpretation, and accepting mine as another, when the rules are admittedly less than precise, as you've said.

Which means that you're strawmanning my position in order to call me a hypocrite.

Bad form, sir. Bad form.

Yzzyx
2009-11-28, 02:19 PM
Practiced Manifester - "Your manifester level for the chosen manifesting class increases by four. This benefit can't increase your manifester level higher than your Hit Dice."

Schism - "Your second mind can manifest powers using your power point reserve, but only as if your manifester level were six lower than it is."

"Lower than it is." Well, what is it? Is it 17+4, max 17, or is it just 17, with a seperate +4 bonus to be later added? This is a question philosophers have debated for centuries. Perhaps I'll be in a mood to actually contribute later. Perhaps.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-28, 03:04 PM
The argument that the bonus sticks around, waiting to be applicable, lies in the fact that you can take it when it doesn't fully apply (say, you're a psion 3 / Wiz 3, and only benefit from 3 ML of the 4 boost). If later, you gain another level of wizard (say, Psion 3 / Wiz 3 / Cerebremancer 10 / Wizard +1), you get the 4th point.

If, at a later time, the bonus would apply, it does.