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View Full Version : [3.x] Sanity System and Magic



Ostien
2009-11-22, 01:50 PM
So I'm homebrewing a 3.x D&D setting. It is going to be one part urban steampunk, one part cosmic horror, and the rest political intrigue heavy with a hint of fantasy adventure in the background. A brief synopsis of flavor:

So the setting is going to be mostly urban (starting in a Gnomish empire) and lower level (4th level). The campaign is going to start with a film noir investigation that will likely end up with the party being entangled with the mob as they uncover lovecraftian cults. There will be serial killers and pupeteer mob bosses, so everything will have a horror feel to it, even before they realize the empire is surrounded by a planet full of aberrations and their reality is a sham :smallbiggrin:

Now I want everything to be horrifying, that includes magic. I'm already changing the fluff for Arcane magic, it comes from knowledge imparted by deals with outsiders (mostly devils and demons). Divine magic is via "normal" gods, yes, but they only have a small foothold on this planet, the aberrant gods of Lords of Madness and Elder Evils reign supreme. Psionics exist as well. The way Arcane magic works is the result of tapping into the space between planes and psionic is tapping into your own mental plane and the material one. Sorcerers are demon or devil blooded, no dragons.

Question:

So,I am doing a sanity system (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/campaigns/sanity.htm) (not that shocking :smallwink:) but I'm not sure how mechanically I want to go about using magic and sanity loss. Not sure if I should have a sanity resistance based off wisdom mod that applies to magic and how much sanity should be lost for spells. Though I do think whatever the outcome some spells will have additional sanity such as necromancy and some higher level telepath powers like mind switch. Anyone have any suggestions on how to mechanically make magic subject to sanity to make magic something rare and special and balance out the casting and non casting classes a bit more? Some players are making noise about not wanting to have casters punished too much and I don't want to drive players from playing them, but I do want to make them have somewhat more of a cost because most things they will face will be non magical as it is somewhat low magic, aside from the players. At least to start out with.

Volin
2009-11-22, 02:08 PM
I would limit the checks to spells at their max level. Casting cantrips and level 1 spells, no problem. They've made it over the sanity hump so-to-speak on that one. However, this new level of spells brings up a whole new level of reality mangling. And they're going to have to get through that.

I would say that the biggest thing to avoid is permanent insanity as a punishment for using your class. Temporary insanity is a lot of fun though, and could still pose problems for the caster in a tense situation.

TabletopNuke
2009-11-22, 08:48 PM
I like this idea. It's fun to play with madness.

One possibility to satisfy your players' complaints is to give madness an upside as well as a downside. I recently created a set of madness feats (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129960)that you're welcome to use.

Madness feats are roughly equal to 2 regular feats, in exchange for a cumulative -1 penalty on Wisdom-based skill checks and Will saves. They also have an effect on a few Charisma-based skills.

There are a couple potential applications for madness feats in your setting.
You could replace the wizard bonus feat list with madness feats, representing the escalating insanity that comes with arcane power.

Perhaps, each time an arcanist gains a new feat, they have to make a Will save. If they fail the save, that feat slot must be filled with a madness feat. The DC could be the DC of the arcanist's highest level spell (10 + Spell Level+ Ability Mod).

If you do use my feats, let me know how they work. I haven't playtested all of them yet.

Bogardan_Mage
2009-11-22, 10:13 PM
Consider how easy it is to recover sanity points. If you have spells that can restore sanity, or easily accessed non-magical means, then your players can safely lose more sanity than they would otherwise.

dsmiles
2009-11-24, 08:28 AM
(In)Sanity is covered in 3.x Unearthed Arcana. Also, I like the system used in Call of Cthulhu (6th edition).

If you need more ideas, those would be the places to get them from.

Ostien
2009-11-25, 11:56 AM
(In)Sanity is covered in 3.x Unearthed Arcana. Also, I like the system used in Call of Cthulhu (6th edition).

If you need more ideas, those would be the places to get them from.

Yeah I've looked at those, but what I'm hung up on is what to do with spellcasting. It gives suggestions but I 'm not sure how exactly I should do it. I like Volin's suggestion of only applying sanity to the max spell level or new spells learned in the case of Sor or Psi.

Also I am going to allow TabletopNuke's madness feats. I'll have them available to any player that wants to use them as they are quite interesting and can add an element of using madness for benefit, which is something I want to do.

I think all spells that are new for a PC will cost the minimum sanity (the spell level) and that leveling up gives the benefit of ignoring the cost for lower level spells. Some spells would always cost sanity like necromancy and some other spells taken in on a case by case basis.

Anyone see any flaws in this or suggestions for improvement? My concern is that I don't know how that will affect spell casters at higher levels. A player casting a new 6th level spell might lost more sanity then half their wisdom mod, thus they suffer temporary insanity. Would this be too much?

mikeejimbo
2009-11-25, 08:56 PM
I think you'll also have to figure out how the Madness Feats interact with the Sanity score.

TabletopNuke
2009-11-26, 04:26 PM
Yeah I've looked at those, but what I'm hung up on is what to do with spellcasting. It gives suggestions but I 'm not sure how exactly I should do it. I like Volin's suggestion of only applying sanity to the max spell level or new spells learned in the case of Sor or Psi.

Also I am going to allow TabletopNuke's madness feats. I'll have them available to any player that wants to use them as they are quite interesting and can add an element of using madness for benefit, which is something I want to do.

I think all spells that are new for a PC will cost the minimum sanity (the spell level) and that leveling up gives the benefit of ignoring the cost for lower level spells. Some spells would always cost sanity like necromancy and some other spells taken in on a case by case basis.

Anyone see any flaws in this or suggestions for improvement? My concern is that I don't know how that will affect spell casters at higher levels. A player casting a new 6th level spell might lost more sanity then half their wisdom mod, thus they suffer temporary insanity. Would this be too much?

It warms the shriveled remains of my heart to think that someone, somewhere is playing with my homebrew. I can't wait to hear how it turns out!

I didn't design the madness feats with Sanity system compatibility in mind. How are you going to do it? Some of those feats will conflict with sanity damaging effects (such as Fear Nothing, No One's Puppet, and Unbreakable).


I think you'll also have to figure out how the Madness Feats interact with the Sanity score.

How about some kind of hybrid of the Sanity Point and Madness Score system? Perhaps effects than normally damage sanity instead result in a temporary increase in one's madness score.

Ostien
2009-11-30, 06:08 PM
It warms the shriveled remains of my heart to think that someone, somewhere is playing with my homebrew. I can't wait to hear how it turns out!

I didn't design the madness feats with Sanity system compatibility in mind. How are you going to do it? Some of those feats will conflict with sanity damaging effects (such as Fear Nothing, No One's Puppet, and Unbreakable).

I think the steep cost of the feats and the feat investment you have to do balances out. I will have to tweek the effects to work with the sanity system. For example Fear Nothing may make you immune to temporary insanity effects, but not indefinite. No one's Puppet could remain how it is as it just gives you immunity to mind affecting such as with some classes.

Unbreakable is such a steep cost and the benefits are great but it still will not avoid sanity loss as SAN is not a mental ability score or mind affecting. Unbreakable would make it very difficult to inflict some of the more dangerous horrors that will try and drain ability scores or control you. A thought is that I could also add in something with that feat for the sanity system that will make it so that you are treated as passing all sanity checks, so you always take the lower sanity loss.

So yeah I'm going to print out your feats and give them to my players and if people want to use them I'll see how exactly to include them. Donno if any of my players will use them, they actually tend to be rather conservative rules wise and stick to the core. But I'll definitely encourage experimentation with them.

This game won't be for a while, I have grad school applications to worry about now but if I do any play testing with your feats or players use them in the actual game I'll PM you with feedback.

Thanks! :smallbiggrin:

TabletopNuke
2009-12-01, 03:53 PM
Sounds great! I can't wait to hear some feedback. Enjoy.



So yeah I'm going to print out your feats and give them to my players and if people want to use them I'll see how exactly to include them. Donno if any of my players will use them, they actually tend to be rather conservative rules wise and stick to the core. But I'll definitely encourage experimentation with them.

What!? The DM wants to try new things and the players don't? Ha ha. That's a new one.