Playing 3.5 Detective.... Factotum or Rogue?

[Talbot]

So, as any of you who hang out in Homebrew know, I'm a big fan of Private Eyes (shameless 4E Private Eye plug: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129650). I don't really have the inclination to make up a class for them in 3.5 (at least, not right now... I'm still finishing the 4E version), so I was trying to figure out how best to play a detective in a 3.5 game. My current thinking is:

Factotum 10/Rogue 10, but you'd need pretty high rolls all the way around to make that work the way I want it to (Cha for Bluff, Int for Factotum stuff, Wis for Sense Motive, Dex for Hide/Move Silent/Roguey stuff, Str for damage, Con for HP), so I was trying (and failing) to come up with a more elegant build. Unfortunately, I'm very rusty at 3.5 and am not much of an optimizer to begin with, so I thought I'd see what the playground could come up with.

Stuff it MUST be good at:
Sense Motive
Bluff
Hide
Move Silent
Search
Listen
Initiative

Stuff it SHOULD be good at:
Intimidate
Diplomacy
Sleight of Hand
Sneak Attack
Spot
Disguise
Ideally at least 2 good saves (made up for somewhat by probably crappy AC)
Various Knowledge skills

Stuff it COULD be good at:
HP
A third save (can't really see a rules-legal way of doing this, though)
Damage
Autohypnosis (more the memorization/observation side, less the resisting death thing)
Some sort of decent ranged attack

I'm probably forgetting some stuff, but those are the biggies. Anybody got some ideas?

[Zaq]

Don't neglect Gather Information. A good PI should be able to figure out the word on the street... ideally without drawing attention to himself or herself.

How magical are you willing to go? Divination does a lot of the work that you'd expect a gumshoe to do.

Oh, and there's the Master Inquisitive PrC, in the Eberron Campaign Setting book. It's really not very good (especially skill-wise... they have 6+INT skill points, and eight class skills. So if you have +3 INT, or a human with +2 INT, you are forced to take cross-class skills. No idea who thought THAT was a good idea), but it's thematically very appropriate. It doesn't do a whole lot that a factotum can't (except get contacts, but Gather Info, Diplomacy, bribes, and good RP can make up for that), but it's worth a quick look.

[BRC]

If you want the flavor of a Fistfighting detective, you can do a one level Monk dip, then take Astetic Rogue (I think) from Complete Scoundrel to have monk and rogue levels stack for sneak attack and Unarmed strike damage.

[Talbot]

I can't believe I forgot Gather Information. Obviously, that'd be in the "Must" category.

As far as magic goes, I'm obviously not totally opposed (as the Factotum is a fairly magical class), but I don't want it to be a major element of the character or how he does his job. The goal is to play someone in the vein of a Phillip Marlowe or a Sherlock Holmes; a smart, capable guy who gets by on wit, insight, and the ability to read/manipulate people.

[Doc Roc]

Factotum is a wildly superior option to rogue in this situation.

[Mongoose87]

If you want the flavor of a Fistfighting detective, you can do a one level Monk dip, then take Astetic Rogue (I think) from Complete Scoundrel to have monk and rogue levels stack for sneak attack and Unarmed strike damage.

That one doesn't actually stack for Sneak Attack- if you check the text, there's nothing about it.

[Gametime]

I'd go for Factotum, hands down. Rogues get more combat capabilities unless you specifically build the factotum for it, but as far as skills go factotums reign supreme (since their usually-higher int will at least make up for, if not eclipse, the rogue's superior number of class skill points).

Factotums also get the ability to fight and improvise based on their intellect, which thematically seems to fit perfectly.

If you do go for rogue, I'd recommend the changeling substitution levels found in Races of Eberron. They give more skill points and bonuses to knowledge and social skills, which seems good for your concept.

[Talbot]

I'd go for Factotum, hands down. Rogues get more combat capabilities unless you specifically build the factotum for it, but as far as skills go factotums reign supreme (since their usually-higher int will at least make up for, if not eclipse, the rogue's superior number of class skill points).

Factotums also get the ability to fight and improvise based on their intellect, which thematically seems to fit perfectly.

If you do go for rogue, I'd recommend the changeling substitution levels found in Races of Eberron. They give more skill points and bonuses to knowledge and social skills, which seems good for your concept.

Just full Factotum, or should I plug in some levels of a PrC/something else? I ask because the character is going to be used to replace my Dwarven Soulknife when he inevitably dies (I mean, come on, he's a Soulknife), so I'll be building him likely at somewhere between 10-15th level.

[Zaq]

Also make sure that you have some way of getting a **** Tracy-style wrist radio. Actual radio waves are optional, but a wrist-com unit would be a lot of fun.

If you go Warforged, consider a Projection Orb from Forge of War. It basically turns a Warforged into a closed-circuit camera ("Go Go Gadget Camera!")

[Gametime]

Just full Factotum, or should I plug in some levels of a PrC/something else? I ask because the character is going to be used to replace my Dwarven Soulknife when he inevitably dies (I mean, come on, he's a Soulknife), so I'll be building him likely at somewhere between 10-15th level.

I like full Factotum. You get some of the nice inspiration abilities (such as the ability to bypass SR/DR and int to AC all the time), and if the campaign goes long enough you get that lovely 19th level mimic ability.

On the other hand, Factotum goes well with lots of classes, so if you want to add something else it would still work fine. I'd go at least 8 levels for Cunning Surge, but after that it's open.

[Talbot]

Ok, so it looks like Factotum is pretty much the way to go. That being the case (I've never played Factotum before, and my knowledge of 3.5 races is mediocre at best), is there any race that gives +4 Int? Failing that, is there one that gies +2 Int and penalizes something I won't be using much (ummm... Str or Con, I guess?) Or should I just be human for the extra feat and skills?

[Myrmex]

Just full Factotum, or should I plug in some levels of a PrC/something else? I ask because the character is going to be used to replace my Dwarven Soulknife when he inevitably dies (I mean, come on, he's a Soulknife), so I'll be building him likely at somewhere between 10-15th level.

Full factotum is one of those rare builds that work. Full beguiler, duskblade, and dread necromancer are also very solid.

I don't think you need many high ability scores to make your idea work. Every 2 points of intelligence you have at first level is equivalent to an 18 in the relevant skill of your choice (+1 int modifier = 4 skill points = +4 to one skill).

Skills, in the long run, are more valuable than ability scores. If you are rolling stats and end up with a lot of odd scores, I recommend going middle aged, to bump up those mental stats. Your physical ones can suffer (though if they are odd, they won't), since you will get your int bonus to punching/climbing/etc checks.

[Doc Roc]

Grey Elf is a +2 int.

You'll want a couple hits of Font of Inspiration, and the Investigative feat from the ECS. I also recommend gloves of Object reading from the MiC.

[BRC]

That one doesn't actually stack for Sneak Attack- if you check the text, there's nothing about it.
Really? Well, it dosn't matter, since I've only ever considered using it to give a Rogue a Monk's unarmed damage, which it works fine for.

Edit: Wait, I think the feat is in either Comp Adv or Comp Warrior, not scoundrel.

[Human Paragon 3]

You might want to take a look at Urban Ranger for Urban Tracking as a bonus feat, which basically let's you follow a trail of clues to track down a person. You could take favored environment: Urban to get bonuses tracking people in an urban environment as well. Or the favored organization option from Urban Ranger. Regular favored enemy helps track down people as well.

Some build like Human Factotum 1/Urban Ranger 3/Factotum x would make you pretty badass.

If you grab improved unarmed strike and improved grapple (two feats a private eye might want anyway) you can go into Tattooed Monk for a couple levels. Grab the Bellflower Tattoo to boost your Int (or whatever attribute you need to boost) and some of the other skill-related tattoos. If you're going undercover, the white mask tattoo is a serious boon.

[Thurbane]

Some good suggestions over in the Columbo (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131560&highlight=Columbo) thread.

[Berserk Monk]

Wait, you're planning on making a detective and you're not trying to work in any divination school spells into your build?

[Talbot]

Wait, you're planning on making a detective and you're not trying to work in any divination school spells into your build?

Yeah, I'm thinking more of a low-magic, Raymon Chandlery kind of build. I don't mind the Factotum SLAs, as I'm mostly only gonna use them in combat and have them just sort of be "things I've picked up over a long career", but I don't want to make him a full on caster or anything.

[Zovc]

Bloodhound (bounty hunter), Exemplar (skill specialist), Spymaster, and Vigilante prestige classes from Complete Adventurer might interest you.

The Complete Scoundrel has the Mountebank prestige class which has a lot of 'miscelaneous' features a detective could find useful, it also has a sneak attack progression.

That was just from glancing at the two mentioned books.

[Doc Roc]

Buy the object reading gloves. Seriously.

[Berserk Monk]

Yeah, I'm thinking more of a low-magic, Raymon Chandlery kind of build. I don't mind the Factotum SLAs, as I'm mostly only gonna use them in combat and have them just sort of be "things I've picked up over a long career", but I don't want to make him a full on caster or anything.

Still, divination is the school of magic used to uncover knowledge and information the exact thing a detective does.

[Talbot]

Still, divination is the school of magic used to uncover knowledge and information the exact thing a detective does.

Yeah, but then it's being magic, not being a detective. That's like telling someone who wanted to play a medical doctor to play a Cleric; yeah, they both heal, but the manner in which they do so is really different (not sure anyone would want to play a doctor, but you see my point).

[Doc Roc]

Yeah, but then it's being magic, not being a detective. That's like telling someone who wanted to play a medical doctor to play a Cleric; yeah, they both heal, but the manner in which they do so is really different (not sure anyone would want to play a doctor, but you see my point).

Except that in this case, it's more like someone demanding to play a caveman in a far-future scifi game. If you want to not use magic for these things, make sure your GM is understanding. Make really bloody certain.

[Myrmex]

Except that in this case, it's more like someone demanding to play a caveman in a far-future scifi game. If you want to not use magic for these things, make sure your GM is understanding. Make really bloody certain.

It's easy to foil magic, and especially easy to trick those who trust their spells. Much more difficult to fool a skill check.

[Doc Roc]

It's easy to foil magic, and especially easy to trick those who trust their spells. Much more difficult to fool a skill check.

My experience has indicated that magic is an excellent way to generate solid skill checks, and that foiling a skilled mage is quite difficult in actual practice.

[Myrmex]

My experience has indicated that magic is an excellent way to generate solid skill checks, and that foiling a skilled mage is quite difficult in actual practice.

No you're wrong.

[Djibriel]

Some tips:

What about a (Cloistered) Cleric dip? Trade out Domain bonuses for Devotion Feats if you want. The real kicker is that you're mostly just normal Factotum detective, but with Scrolls to back up your game.

As a super smart detective, you will lean towards a character concept that can basically do anything well, because he's so awesome. As you mention in your first post, this cannot be done. I'd say you twist him a bit, so that he has some flaws (not the UA kind). Make him a cripple, or totally uncharismatic (like Monk), stuff like that. You're part of a team, your detective can totally get away with lacking any sort of Cha-based skills. You don't need any Str. or Con. to play this guy. Dex. and Cha. are nice but not very important either. Picky any dump stat you want, it'll help flesh out your character beyond the words "better than others".

Any smart detective has a dumb lackey to help show the world how smart he is. Get a Half-Orc bruiser from Leadership if your DM approves. Races of Destiny has some great Feats for that kind of character, and if you make him a non-Stunning Fist Monk he'll hardly contribute except for Intimidate and punching/Grapple, which is what you wanted him for in the first place.

Best detectives are DARK detectives. Tiefling gets you +2 Int, -2 Cha and some stuff that helps you a bit. Since Int is everything for a Factotum, taking a LA1 hit isn't that bad.

Don't take Master Inquisitive from ECS; its class features are fluff, with True Seeing 1/day as a capstone.

[Talbot]

Yeah, I'm leaning towards Str as a dump stat, with Con as the secondary dump if necessary. I feel like Dex and Cha are important for some of the skills I want to specialize in (Bluff, Sense Motive, Hide, Move Silent), so hopefully I'll roll ok.

Any suggestions with regards to equip/feats? I'm (obviously) more concerned with character concept than optimization, but I'd like him to be at least a functional member of a smallish (3-5 person) party.

[Doc Roc]

No you're wrong.

I... see. Would you like me to lay out exactly what I mean in a pure mechanical sense? Remember, I've run a PvP\PvE arena for almost seven months now. I've DM'd for years. I'm not just talking out of my snole.

On topic:
I'm going to recommend the following...
Object Reading Gloves (MiC)
Obtain Familiar [feat]
Any of the many good divine feats, since you get Turning.

[Zaq]

I... see. Would you like me to lay out exactly what I mean in a pure mechanical sense? Remember, I've run a PvP\PvE arena for almost seven months now. I've DM'd for years. I'm not just talking out of my snole.

On topic:
I'm going to recommend the following...
Object Reading Gloves (MiC)
Obtain Familiar [feat]
Any of the many good divine feats, since you get Turning.

If I may be so bold, I think you're taking Myrmex's comment in the wrong light. To be fair, I think that he stated it a little bit differently from the standard. Again, if I may presume:


NO U

[Doc Roc]

If I may be so bold, I think you're taking Myrmex's comment in the wrong light. To be fair, I think that he stated it a little bit differently from the standard. Again, if I may presume:

I have no further cogent rejoinder that does not make me feel sad.

[The Manly Man]

I would go beguiler. I know it goes against the "no major magic" thing, but it has virtually everything you're looking for, bar the sneak attack.

I played a similar character who wasn't so much a detective as a man who gets things done. Although he was a full caster, it was very rarely his first resort. He would make sure things went as they should - money reached the right hands, information was discovered or concealed as needed, and when someone became problematic... the problem was solved. He rarely fought in a combat that he hadn't arranged himself.

The magic was just another tool to use - much like his lockpicks, mastery of languages and knowing the right person in every corner of the city. He saw no reason why an intelligent person would not use the tools available for every job - including magic.

[Telonius]

Depends on the sort of detective you're going for. Are we talking Sherlock Holmes, or Columbo, or Eddie Valiant, or Jessica Fletcher, or Hercule Poirot? Each of them has a slightly different schtick as to how they figure out the clues.

[chiasaur11]

Depends on the sort of detective you're going for. Are we talking Sherlock Holmes, or Columbo, or Eddie Valiant, or Jessica Fletcher, or Hercule Poirot? Each of them has a slightly different schtick as to how they figure out the clues.

Obviously, we're talking Nightbeat.

You'll want a warforged with enlarge person, of course, and a couple of levels of urban druid...

[Talbot]

Depends on the sort of detective you're going for. Are we talking Sherlock Holmes, or Columbo, or Eddie Valiant, or Jessica Fletcher, or Hercule Poirot? Each of them has a slightly different schtick as to how they figure out the clues.

More Phillip Marlowe than anything else.

[Draz74]

I like the idea of making the character a Tiefling, though I disagree that LA +1 won't hurt you. Lesser Tiefling or LA Buyoff rules?

Lawful Good (but in a gritty, Sam Vimes way) Tiefling Factotum? Nice. Very nice.

[Talbot]

I like the idea of making the character a Tiefling, though I disagree that LA +1 won't hurt you. Lesser Tiefling or LA Buyoff rules?

Lawful Good (but in a gritty, Sam Vimes way) Tiefling Factotum? Nice. Very nice.

I think I'll probably go Neutral Good, as that fits more with the Chandler/Hammet model I'm going for. Tiefling might be a good option, but I need the Cha for Bluff/Diplomacy/Intimidate... Also, in the playtest for my 4e Detective Homebrew, I'm a Tiefling :P

Is there any race in one of the manuals or splatbooks that gives Int AND Cha at the cost of, say, Con and Str or something?

[Dairun Cates]

I'm just going to throw this out there. Professor Layton is quite possibly the most awesome detective ever.

He can make fliers that take down airships with a curtain, a globe, and a child's brooch.

He can fence vampires.

He can solve immortality.

He can turn down billions of dollars in gold treasure that was offered to him.

He can turn ANYTHING into a puzzle and solve it through pure freakin' logic.

...And all JUST BECAUSE that's what a gentleman does.

Yeah. If you want to be the best detective, you HAVE to be a factotum.

[Hat-Trick]

I think I'll probably go Neutral Good, as that fits more with the Chandler/Hammet model I'm going for. Tiefling might be a good option, but I need the Cha for Bluff/Diplomacy/Intimidate... Also, in the playtest for my 4e Detective Homebrew, I'm a Tiefling :P

Is there any race in one of the manuals or splatbooks that gives Int AND Cha at the cost of, say, Con and Str or something?

Pixie

...

What?

[Talbot]

I actually love the idea of a grim'n'gritty noir Pixie PI, but I don't really want to swallow the +4 LA.... is there anything with maybe a lower LA that still helps out Cha and Int?

[Haven]

I actually love the idea of a grim'n'gritty noir Pixie PI, but I don't really want to swallow the +4 LA.... is there anything with maybe a lower LA that still helps out Cha and Int?

Well...there's always Drow.

[Iku Rex]

I actually love the idea of a grim'n'gritty noir Pixie PI, but I don't really want to swallow the +4 LA.... is there anything with maybe a lower LA that still helps out Cha and Int?Petal. Fey from MMIII, +2 LA, +4 Int and +8 Cha.

[Talbot]

Petal. Fey from MMIII, +2 LA, +4 Int and +8 Cha.

Looks good, but I can't find the "Petals as PLayer Character" or any other means of conversion there... the DM's flexible, but I'll need to have something concrete in the book to get him to let me take a monster race. Are the bonuses/penalties for them listed somewhwere else? Or do I just start with one as-listed and then start adding character levels to the given stats (I.E., no rolling)?

Also, I'd like to avoid Drow if possible. I never play Good aligned Drow out of principle... a long time ago, I used to DM, and I've seen wayyyyy too many Drizz't clones. Even though my character'd be nowhere close to that personality/playstyle, I don't even want the thought going through my DM's head, lest he be as vindictive as I would.

[Talbot]

Is there a downside to either Bozak or Satyr that I'm not catching? They both seem ridiculously good for their LA.


Edit: Sorry about the DP. Didn't realize I was the last one to post until I already re-posted. My bad.

[Draz74]

Is there a downside to either Bozak or Satyr that I'm not catching? They both seem ridiculously good for their LA.

Don't know where Bozak is from, but Satyr ... has five Racial Hit Dice. It's a Level 7 character, before you start adding class levels to it.

[Talbot]

Don't know where Bozak is from, but Satyr ... has five Racial Hit Dice. It's a Level 7 character, before you start adding class levels to it.

Ooooo.... so it's actually (basically) a +7 LA, then, not a +2?

[Doc Roc]

Bozak is still ridiculously good, and is used in certain specific exploits.
It's one more superb reason why you should almost never own or use a product related to Dragon Magazine.

[Draz74]

Ooooo.... so it's actually (basically) a +7 LA, then, not a +2?

... sort of. Not quite, because at least the character gets (crappy) hit points, (ok) saves, (crappy) BAB, and (pretty decent) skill points out of five of those seven levels.

[vartan]

What about the Watch Detective from the 3.0 Masters of the Wild?

[Talbot]

What about the Watch Detective from the 3.0 Masters of the Wild?

Good find. Currently leaning towards Factotum 10/Watch Detective 10 or similar.

Still need a race, though.